The difference (true and less true followers?) - Part 2

[anadi]

Kindly do not ascribe motive to the Supreme Lord. We are here, because of our and only our wish.

 

Our wish is in no time enough to accomplish anything.

 

As we fell from tataStha, it was our desire to come here.

And the Lord was bound by that desire to sent us here.

 

 

The Lord made a pool (jada jagat), but He didn't say jump!

We volunteered to jump.

Some didn't jump, but we are here.

The Lord desired to enjoy also in the jada jagat, and he wanted some jivas here. We volunteered.

<font color="red"> Our offence is that we think we are the enjoyers.</font color>

And these conception makes us suffer. Not that the Lord wants us suffer. He put the transcendental knowledge in the heart of the RiSis and he comes personally to tell us how we can be happy and how we can be most happy.

So the Lord is in no time at fault, or wants us suffer.

 

<font color="blue"> The moment we realize and serve the real enjoyer, we don't suffer anymore, doesn't matter where we are.</font color>

[Guest guest]

 

The Lord desired to enjoy also in the jada jagat, and he wanted some jivas here. We volunteered.

 

 

 

The Lord has no dearth of enjoyment in Vaikuntha. He comes to the material world to save the suffering souls. He shows His lilas to attract our mind. Why should a king (Krishna) in his right mind leave his fragrant garden (Vaikuntha) to play in a barren stinking place (material world)? His lila in material world is to save suffering souls.

[anadi]

Ok,

this world is all desolate and stinking and whatever you want to say, but only when it is bereft of the Lord and His associates.

The Lord won't describe this creation of His in this way.

This creation is very attractive than this energy of His is transcendental daivy hi eSa guna mayi.

 

On the other side we should learn from the acaryas to be disgusted with this world because of our attachement to it and the desire to enjoy it.

 

When the Lord wanted to taste Vira rasa, Jaya an Vijaya understood the desire of the Lord, and came with Him.

And the Lord doesn't fulfill only one purpose by His actions but very many.

 

But first and prior to all is tasting rasa in the company of His devotees.

vRndAvanIyAM rasa-keli-vArtAM

kAlena luptAM nija-zaktim utkaH

saJcArya rUpe vyatanot punaH sa

prabhur vidhau prAg iva loka-sRSTim

 

He wanted mother YaSoda to feel that She gives Him birth again making her motherly feelingy ever fresh, and gleaming

 

and many many more in all the rasas.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv?

 

 

you been there, Kailasa? Ooh eeeeee! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[anadi]

--

 

Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv?

 

 

--

 

you been there, Kailasa? Ooh eeeeee!

 

Please be constructiv!

[Guest guest]

 

The Lord won't describe this creation of His in this way.

 

 

 

I beg to differ:-

 

maamupEthya Punarjanma dukhAlayam asAsvatham

nApnuvanthi mahAthmana: samsiddhim parmAm gathA:

aabrahmabhuvanAllOkA: punarAvarthinOrjuna

maamupEthya thu KounthEya punarjanmA na vidhyathE

 

--SrImath Bhagavath Geethai: 8.15-16

 

Those who performed saraNAgathi unto Me will never

ever return to this ocean of misery, this SamsAra

MaNDalam. They wont have anymore births and deaths

hereafter.They will stay at My supreme abode performing

kaimkaryams to Me and enjoy that permanent bliss.

[Guest guest]

kim punar brahmanah punya

bhakta rajarsayas tatha

anityam asukham lokam

imam prapya bhajasva mam

 

How much greater then are the brahmanas, the righteous, the devotees and saintly kings who in this temporary miserable world engage in loving service unto Me.

[Guest guest]

This world is not miserable.

If you feel it is miserable, than it is like this.

Why?

because you have material desires.

 

And the Lord says that this world is miserable, but He tells it for the sick ones, that think that they are here to enjoy it.

 

Than the sukha and dukha of this world is like gama agama (coming and going) of Sita and USna so at least if you are attracted to enjoy Sukha than you have to tolerate titiksam the dukha, that arise from it.

 

The Lord can give also this instruction for people on a certain level.

 

But a bhakti yogi see it like this:

Oh Lord, wherever you are there is Vrindavan.

 

Much more than that: wherever your unaloyed bhaktas are there you are!

 

But I must accept your wiew is much better than mine.

Your evidence is much stronger.

[Guest guest]

 

But I must accept your wiew is much better than mine.

Your evidence is much stronger.

 

 

 

This is not about one upmanship but what view makes sense and what makes for devotion. If we say the Lord is supremely independent and He makes a pit where the jivas can volunteer to fall, it makes up a view of a mean God who cares only for His own enjoyment. Surely if God is the perfect person devoid of any sense of false ego, such thoughts would not occur in His mind. What would really come into a mind of an exalted person like God - Oh, these jivas are suffering, I must somehow, convince them to give up their material attachment and come to me where they can live peacefully. This makes sense and also increases our devotion to a God who is kind.

[anadi]

Hey, Hey, Hey not like this.

you still keep it on the left side.

 

God didn't make a pit!

But it becomes a pit for you because of your false identification of thinking you the enjoyer.

 

You can very nicely serve God here too!

You have everyting here, God too!

 

Only that here this false identification is possible.

And you can choose it.

He told BrahmA from the very begining to not do like this!

He told us through guru parampara too!

But we don't listen!

This is our rebelion.

[Guest guest]

Bhagavatam 10.14.58

 

For those who have accepted the boat of the lotus feet of the Lord, who is the shelter of the cosmic manifestation and is famous as Mur&#257;ri, the enemy of the Mura demon, the ocean of the material world is like the water contained in a calf's hoof-print. Their goal is param&#803; padam, Vaikun&#803;t&#803;ha, the place where there are no material miseries, not the place where there is danger at every step.

 

--------------------------

 

Back to the basic question, whether we can serve God in material world or not is not the question. Whether God had any intension of having jivas in the material world for His enjoyment. That is what is not correct. Again God has His Vaikuntha for all kinds of lilas, He come to the material world to try to convince jivas to give up material attachment.

[anadi]

First I have to say that your knowledge is very deep and you prove it by your inumerable Slokas.

In fact I don't understand this things but I keep on listening to your arguments.

 

Whether God had any intension of <font color="blue"> having jivas in the material world for His enjoyment</font color>. That is what is not correct.

 

 

What about PuruSa and Prakriti!

 

PuruSa means the enjoyer.

<font color="blue"> There is one enjoyer only, The All Attractive One, in His different expansions in the category Saktiman . </font color>

The enjoyer is the real masculine person, and this is only the attribute of The All Attractive One.

All others, who are His Saktis are the enjoyed, and from this point of view they are considered feminine.

PrakRti, which is the external Sakti of The All Attractive One, cannot touch Him, because He is always transcendental to Her (far beyond Her range of activity)

If the spiritual souls wouldn’t be in the material world, prakRti would have no meaning for the The All Attractive One Sri Krishna, in His different manifestations.

Because of ahankara (the false ego) the jivas (the spiritual souls) identify themselves with the external Sakti (the gross and fine material body and their by produckts) and try to enjoy it, and the real connection with The All Attractive One remain buried .

This real connection is prema (divine love), which can be kindled through the process of bhakti (pure love expressed as pure devotional service).

Really prakRti (that what is to be enjoyed)is not the external energy (maha-maya Sakti).

Only one who is in illusion thinks like that.

The spiritual souls, which are made of love, they are the ones to be enjoyed. The true Object of their love is The All Attractive One, who is the Enjoyer

 

 

<font color="blue"> In the first half of this verse beginning withs ISvaraH paramaH kRSNaH, the most attractive personification of bliss, who is distinguished by His inconceivable energies, is called Sri KRSNa.</font color> The all-attractiveness of KRSNa’s form and His quality of being the original form of all pleasure are mentioned in the second half of the verse. <font color="blue"> Here the word sarva refers to the living entities</font color>, because Sri KRSNa attracts them and makes them blissful. The cause of this is love (bhAva). Thus, Sri KRSNa is He who is always immersed in the joy of love (premAnanda) and who immerses others in it as well. Therefore, the word KRSNa can only refer to the embodiment of bliss, who is supremely attractive due to His form and qualities. The word KRSNa Sri KRSNa is mentioned in the VAsudeva UpaANiad:

“devaki-nandano nikhilam Anandayet”

Devaki-nandana KRSNa gives bliss to all moving and non-moving living entities.”

 

labdhvAtmika sati rUDhir

bhaved yogApahAriNi

kalpaniyA tu labhate

nAtmAnaM yoga-vAdhataH

 

Sri KRSNa is clearly specified as Parabrahma in Srimad-BhAgavatam:

 

“gUDhaM paraM brahma manuSya-liNgam –

Sri KRSNa is Parabrahma hiding in human form.”

“Yan mitraM paramAnandaM pUrNa-brahma sanAtanam –

 

Sri KRSNa is the friend of the cowherd folk headed by Nanda MahArAja. That very Sri KRSNa is Parabrahma, the supremely blissful, ultimate and eternal Absolute Truth.”

 

It is also stated in the GopAla-tApani UpaniSad (21):

“eko vaSi sarvagaH kRSNa iDyaH –

Sri KRSNa is one. He controls everyone, knows everything and is worshipable by all.”

Such an ISvara can be referred to as parama. Para means “the most excellent” and

mA means “LakSzmi, the sum total of all potencies.” Therefore, one who is eternally accompanied by the most excellent LakSzmi, namely Sri RAdhA, is called paramesvara Sri KRSNa. For example, it is stated in Srimad-BhAgavatam:

“reme ramAbhir nija-kAma-samplutaH

– BhagavAn Sri KRSNa enjoyed His pastimes with Srimati RAdhikA and the other gopis.” Also: “nAyaM Sriyo ’nga unitAnta-rateH prasAdaM – the great fortune attained by the gopis in the pastime of the rAsa dance with Sri KRSNa was not available for the queens of DvArakA headed by RukmiNi and SatyabhAmA, nor for the Lakshmis of VaikuNTha or Devaloka, not to mention the demigoddesses of heaven.”

 

Furthermore, in Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated:

 

“tatrAtiSuSubhe tAbhir bhagavAn devaki-sutaH –

 

DevakI-nandana Sri KRSNa began to look even more beautiful amidst all those gopIs.”

In the latter part of this Brahma-saMhitA (56), we will find:

 

“SriyaH kAntAH kAntaH parama-puruSah –

 

in Goloka VRndAvana there is only one hero, namely parama-puruSa Sri KRSNa. LakSzmis, in the form of gopis, are His beloveds.”

The GopAla-tApanI UpaniSad confirms this:

“kRSNo vai paramaH daivatam –

Sri KRSNa is the only supreme worshipable deity.”

 

 

 

<font color="red"> "Our lives however, horrible or beautiful they may be are controlled by Purusha himself?" </font color>

 

Yes! Always! although we have the independence potency.

We have a very big defect: we are tiny-small.

 

<font color="red"> But we also can control Him! By the power of our love.</font color>

The higher the love the more powerful is the control.

But love is not in this world.

 

The way of bhakti is the way of love.

And you get in that other world by the association of love,

in a body made out of love.

 

And from the commentary of Srila Jiva Gosvami to Vers 1 from Brahma Samhita:

 

It is also stated in the GopAla-tApani UpaniSad (21):

“eko vaSi sarvagaH kRSNa iDyaH –

Sri KRSNa is one. He controls everyone, knows everything and is worshipable by all.”

Such an ISvara can be referred to as parama. Para means “the most excellent” and

mA means “LakSzmi, the sum total of all potencies.” Therefore, one who is eternally accompanied by the most excellent LakSzmi, namely Sri RAdhA, is called paramesvara Sri KRSNa. For example, it is stated in Srimad-BhAgavatam:

“reme ramAbhir nija-kAma-samplutaH

– BhagavAn Sri KRSNa enjoyed His pastimes with Srimati RAdhikA and the other gopis.” Also:

“nAyaM Sriyo ’nga unitAnta-rateH prasAdaM –

the great fortune attained by the gopis in the pastime of the rAsa dance with Sri KRSNa was not available for the queens of DvArakA headed by RukmiNi and SatyabhAmA, nor for the Lakshmis of VaikuNTha or Devaloka, not to mention the demigoddesses of heaven.”

 

<font color="blue"> We are always the enjoyed, if you like it, or not! </font color>

[Guest guest]

what is the difference between matter and spirit,the spirtual world(vaikuntha) and the material world ?

 

Really it is a matter of perception,one man sees the glass half full the other man sees it half empty,which is it ?

 

We are told that the Maha Bhagavata is always in Vrndavana,

this is because he knows there is no difference between the material world and the spiritual world other then

perception.

 

One man can live a life and see nothing but

the positive aspect, "life is amazing,the existence

of a planet like earth is amazing,the existence of ourselves

at all is amazing,the existence of any coherent

stable enjoyable reality is very,very amazing",

for that person thinking like that this world is a spritual

place.

 

For another man who sees this world as old hat,a place

of problems,mistakes,desolation,unenjoyable,to him this world is not spiritual,just very mundane.

 

the same place but seen and therefore experienced as

either spiritual or material.

 

Vaikuntha means without anxiety,it really is a state of existence,for a self realized soul Vaikuntha is everywhere,

matter and spirit are both the same thing,God's energy.

 

For the conditioned soul anxiety is always there,wherever he is there is a degree of anxiiety,fear,trepidation,

a feeling of wanting to get out ,to be liberated,

never satisfied for longer then sense gratifying

experiences provide,he could be in the nicest pleasurable

situation still he will want higher better situation,

anxious for a better enjoying situation.

 

 

So where the jiva fell from,or how ,is not important,

we are here,we need to learn how to transform our selves,

then this material world transforms into Vaikuntha,

it changes from a place of anxiety and longing into a playground for you and God.

 

Wherever there is God,which is everywhere you will ever be,

there is the potential for Vaikuntha,the potential for Vrndavana,the playground for God.

 

The material world is called illusory,Maha Maya,the illusion

is that this world is material,in reality our vision is

delusional,our vision is material, this world is comprised

of nothing more then the exact same substance as every spec

of the entire infinite reality, all of the infinite is comprised of a single undifferentiated substance,the

illusion is that it isn't, the illusion or Maha Maya

is that we live in material bodies in the material world,

in fact the only thing keeping us in the material world

is our vision, our realization.

 

What appears as solid matter is in fact illusory,

do you think in the "spiritual" world there is any difference ?

 

there also matter seems real,air is there,trees,rivers,

flowers,oceans,fruits.

 

they have desire trees described in the shastra as giving

what you desire,here also we such trees, any thing you desire to satisfy your tongue ,thousands of different

fruit trees, it can't get any better.

 

The material world is experienced by those with material

consciousness,the spiritual world is experienced by those

with transcendental consciousness,they can be living next door to each other but living in two different worlds.

 

[anadi]

Oh God Siva!

 

[Guest guest]

"So where the jiva fell from,or how ,is not important"

 

wrong.. it is relaively not too important... not "not important"

 

we can study the matter wihout falling in the uselessa speculation, but the study is possible and recommended.. prabhupada has said that we will see when we'll be there but he has also explained many things

[Guest guest]

I think you have been here before!

 

“The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna

consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where

Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST

opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The

training goes on, as we see in vRndAvana-lila.”

( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight )

 

"dhairyat"

 

If the devotee first sees KRSNA when he was trasfered in the material univers where vRndAvana-lila goes on, it means that he had never seen Krishna before.

 

If he would have been in the spiritual world

and would have fallen from there

than this meeting were not declared here as the first time when the devotee sees Krishna.

 

All the other speculations are pure stupidity and guru drohi.

 

That person is a great offender, and I hope that Sri Krishna would be merciful with us and spare us with the presence of that obstinate offender.

 

“ The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode .”

( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26)

 

Can somebody give another interpretation to this statement of Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada?

 

[anadi]

previous post by anadi

[Guest guest]

We are here not talking sankhya or any impersonal or machine philosophy whose behaviour is fixed -- that is what is connoted by purusha and prakriti terms if used without care.

 

Now it is a fact that because Krishna is Brahman, the jivas can be happy only by service to Krishna, but that does not mean that Krishna is hankering for that - "Hey, you jivas, serve me, or else........." Look what He says in BG

Bhagavad-gita 5.29: bhoktaram yajna-tapasam

sarva-loka-mahesvaram suhrdah sarva-bhutanam jnatva mam santim rcchati

 

He says that He is indeed the enjoyer of all yagyas, but one must also understand that He is the most dear friend of all living entities. Without understanding this, one cannot find peace.

 

Krishna needs nobody else for enjoyment. He is selfsufficient, He takes pleasure in Himself - atmarama. He can manifest countless perfect servants at His will as Narayan Rsi manifested countless beautiful women - His mere will is sufficient - satyasankalpa. Why does He need us for enjoyment???!!!!!

 

Yet We see that He continues to engage with people like us who are imperfect and try to rectify us. And that is because His kindness is also boundless. Remember He has no need to do that, but still He does because He is causelessly kind.

 

God's lilas are in material world is for attracting minds of suffering jivas to Him. That is foremost. There may be other reasons like giving pleasure to His pure devotees.

If Krishna only wanted to give yasoda ma pleasure by making her experience pleasure of giving birth to Him, He could have arranged for private place anywhere in existence, why only in the material world. Or even in material world, he could have kept His lilas private, yogamaya samavrtah. His intension to display His lilas in material world is to attract the suffering souls. This is His kindness.

 

At the end I want to say, kindly do not make Krishna a selfish person. That is not the way to repay His kindness.

 

If you want to think you are the enjoyed, please do so, but don't put a stamp on His intensions that He wants to enjoy you so he has created this material world and so on....

[Guest guest]

Why go through all the trouble of describing Krishna as the most beautiful, most handsome, most expert, most ..... Because these are qualities that develop love and service attitude. Nobdoy will describe Krishna as bad goon. This is how it works. If you describe Krishna as enjoyer and things like this in wrong manner, that's it. Door to devotion closed. Krishna is causelessly kind, even to those who do not like him. This is what inspire surrender.

[Guest guest]

***"Fall soul it is spiritual question, it is not matrial sheme. Sourse falling soul it is root material life. Then if person not take moksa he not understand this question."

 

***..... yes, but anadi gave good (even if for us theoretical) answers... do not oppose also because he's from Narayana Maharaja!!!!

 

They do not understand. All souls alredy falls, anothres not fall - never.

 

***prabhupada and iskcon too are clearly for tatasta theory,

 

All souls tatastha. Some fall it is tatastha, some not fall it is tatastha too.

 

***and tatasta is spiritual.... when prabhupada says that everyone comes from spiritual world

 

Yes from Krisna. Not brahman, not Maha Visnu. Souls stay in Maha Visnu AFTER falling. SBT write souls go from Krisna.

 

***and there's a "coming back" business, not a "going" one..

 

Yes. They fall from Vaikuntha then they go home.

 

***he says in this way to be concise, but he is right and coherent with the tatasta shakti concept

 

All souls tatastha, they eternal tatastha.

 

Srila Prabhupada about fall down.

 

"But in this verse the Lord also speaks of the living entity as "an eternal fragment of Myself." The fragment of God, the living entity, may fall down into the material world, but the Supreme Lord (Acyuta) never falls down.

 

"Although all living entities are also transcendental, they are neither original nor infallible. The living entities are apt to fall down under the clutches of material nature, but the Lord is never like that.

 

"Acyuta refers to one who does not fall because He is never influenced by the modes of material nature. When a living entity falls down to the material world from his original position,

 

"When a man or a woman is attracted by the opposite sex, it does not matter whether the opposite sex is beautiful or not. The lover sees everything beautiful in the face of the beloved and thus becomes attracted. This attraction causes the living entity to fall down in this material world.

 

"When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the prema-vivarta it is said:

The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead.

 

"As confirmed in the Brahma-samhita, all these forms of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are advaita, nondifferent, and they are also acyuta, infallible; they do not fall down like the conditioned souls. The ordinary living entity is prone to falling into the clutches of maya, but the Supreme Lord in His different incarnations and forms is acyuta, infallible. Therefore His body is different from the material body possessed by the conditioned soul.

 

More?

[Guest guest]

***The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krishna

consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where

Krishna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their FIRST

opportunity to associate with Krishna personally and directly. The

training goes on, as we see in vRndAvana-lila.&#8221;

( Krishna Book:Chapter Twenty-eight )

 

First after stay in material world.

 

***If he would have been in the spiritual world

and would have fallen from there

than this meeting were not declared here as the first time when the devotee sees Krishna.

 

SBT write soul fall from spiritual world. You guru write some 5 month ago - "soul fall from spiritual world".

 

***All the other speculations are pure stupidity and guru drohi.

 

Needs understand sastra anadi.

 

***That person is a great offender, and I hope that Sri Krishna would be merciful with us and spare us with the presence of that obstinate offender.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif You sapa go for you anadi. This organisations create fanatics. Sraddha with out knowlege create fanatics.

 

***" The CONCLUSION is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or

Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode ."

( Srimad-BhAgavatam 3.16.26)

 

Needs understands sastra anadi. Sastra for spiritual understanding, sastra not instruction for car.

[Guest guest]

In reply to:

--

 

***Soul do choise? Some choise material world, not choise spiritual world? Hmm...spiritual world not attractiv?

 

 

--

 

***you been there, Kailasa? Ooh eeeeee!

 

You follow wrong conception friend.

 

 

[anadi]

At the end I want to say, kindly do not make Krishna a selfish person. That is not the way to repay His kindness.

 

If you want to think you are the enjoyed, please do so, but don't put a stamp on His intensions that He wants to enjoy you so he has created this material world and so on....

 

 

It seems a very hard accusation that I try to present Krishna as a selfish person.

Read carefully the 10th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam (or Krishna Book) and you will see in the prayers of the demigods headed by BrahmA where they say that this world is here only for the satisfaction of the Lord.

 

Another problem with the selfishness is that we project our material selfishness on Krishna, and this is the measure of our impurity, because we still want to be the enjoyers!

We are the servants. But to attain this qualification we should attain the stage of love.

 

It is also sorrowful to see your endeavor to put as primary goal of the existence of the material world the intention of the Lord to rescue the jivas, but this is secondary.

Take Sri Krishna. He came in Vrindava and performed the lila of coming and going, not as in Goloka, and this has its vaiSiStha, that he don’t give in Goloka, and taste rasa in slightely different way as in Goloka, all the other reasons of His descent are secondary.

Take Sriman Mahaprabhu, first he came to taste the feelings of separation of Srimati Radhika, all the other reasons come after.

 

Krishna is not selfish, because he is not enjoying alone, but gives pleasure to all.

 

This world is but another room of Krishna’s pastimes, not ours.

When we think that it’s for us, than we are bound to suffer.

 

Krishna is not selfish, he wants to give… Himself,

And nothing hampers him to enjoy, than whatever He does, has as primary reason enjoying the exchanges of rasa with His devotees.

 

When Krishna is selfish, He is like the impersonal Brahman,

No parikars there, nothing, no rasa, but everybody alone. When Krishna is selfish ananda is really insignificant.

[Guest guest]

***Yes, we go all the way back; but we cross the marginal position.

And we fall in the material world, but from the marginal position.

 

They do not understand who means tatastha. "Rasikas"

[Guest guest]

***It seems a very hard accusation that I try to present Krishna as a selfish person.

Read carefully the 10th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam (or Krishna Book) and you will see in the prayers of the demigods headed by BrahmA where they say that this world is here only for the satisfaction of the Lord.

 

In high sense material world not for Lord. Material world create for souls, for desire souls ( see SB ). Material world no need for Krisna.