The difference (true and less true followers?) - Part 2

[anadi]

In reply to:

 

When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they developa consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

 

"develop a consciousness of duality"

<font color="red"> How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality</font color> , in the spiritual world?

 

 

<font color="red"> From within yourself. </font color>

 

 

 

 

<font color="red"> If you are the source of duality</font color>

 

Than “the proponents” of “jiva is falling from the spiritual world” would come in the future with the conclusion that in the spiritual world Sri KRSNa is not so attractive, his power of attraction of guna, nama, rupa , lila is quite limited, <font color="blue"> as long as a lot of his companions (just look how many we are here - and it seems to be a common disorder of the spiritual world ) thought themselves the better ones and wanted to have their own lila.</font color>

 

<font color="red"> SRILA BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA’S COMMENTARY:

SRI BRAHMA-SAMHITA-PRAKASINI-VRTTI</font color>

 

Sri KRSNa’s own eternal

form is the embodiment of concentrated eternal existence,

cognizance and bliss. His dark complexion is enchanting and He

holds a flute in His two hands. Although He is the Supreme

Master, by the influence of His inconceivable potency He

appears in His original form in medium-sized or human-like proportions

as a fresh youth, the best of dancers, in the simple dress

of a cowherd boy, playing upon a flute. <font color="blue"> Therefore His eternal

form is full of astonishing transcendental qualities that have the

power to attract everything. </font color>

[anadi]

Maybe some would think that this is no disorder.

But in the Absolut World

1.any imperfection can be seen as a great disorder,

2.especially when one considers that

according to the proponents of jiva is falling from the spiritual world,

3.we find Sri KRSNa not so attractive anymore and

4.become envious of him, desiring to have our own lila.

 

And the world of Absolut would be not anymore Absolut

if alows imperfection like this in it.

[anadi]

tasya vA etasya puruNasya dve eva sthAne

bhavata idaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

sandhyaM tRtiyaM svapna-sthAnaM

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThann ete ubhe

sthAne paAyatAdaM ca paraloka-sthAnaM ca

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

 

<font color="blue"> There are two positions about which the jIva-puruSa should

inquire</font color> – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual

world.

<font color="red"> The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a

dreamlike condition (svapna-sthAna), and is the juncture

(taTa-stha) </font color> between the other two.

Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet,

<font color="green"> he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).</font color>

 

[theist]

I won't get very far into this topic but you seem to dismiss the idea that duality exists within one's own conceptions. I am just curious as to where you think then that the duality conception does exist.

 

And as to the jiva falling from the spiritual world you must know that the brahmajyoti is also the spiritual world.

 

Here is a quote from Prabhupada that we can consider.

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord—which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls—is known as Brahman.

 

 

Now we are generated from the all pervading Brahman. So how can we "fall" away from that which is all pervading? By falling into a slumber of forgetfullness of our actual surroundings, that's how.

 

We tend to think of falling as something like falling off a mountain and being carried to a lower realm by gravity.

 

I think it is more like falling asleep which does not involvement movement directly but movement of conciousness. In this case one of falling unconscious to our true self and in which we then start to identify with a myriad of different dream identities.

 

I hear three distinct theories being propagated by Gaudiya Vedantist. Fell from rasa, fell from Brahman or began in the material sphere. There may even be more.

 

The starting off in matter I reject outright. The others Prabhupada said not to worry much about.

 

So I guess I have said my piece.

 

Jiv Jago

may we all

 

[Guest guest]

this verse of brihadaranyak is about wake (idam), dream (intermediate - dream like sandhyam triyam svapna) and deep sleep where the jiva is in supersoul (paraloka). See the whole chapter.

 

This verse is not proof that jiva choose to drop into "pool" made by Krishna so Krishna can make enjoyment for Himself.

[anadi]

Dear Theist you aknowledge your "not studying" this issue.

You ask me questions as I would present "my opinion".

What I present is not my opinion.

 

I am just curious as to where you think then that the duality conception does exist.

 

 

The duality concept is totally alien to jiva, but

gazing to mAyA from the marginal position, the moment he was attracted by mAyA

the duality was imposed to “him” by the subtle machine called ahaMkara (false ego), by which “he” takes “the identity of another”.

 

In his book Jaiva Dharma, Prameiya Jiva tattva Srila bhaktivinoda Thakura uses the quotation given below to establish the original position of the jiva in <font color="red"> tatashta, which is non different from karana jala (the causal ocean),</font color> and explaining in this way why jiva is called mariginal.

 

tasya vA etasya puruNasya dve eva sthAne

bhavata idaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

sandhyaM tRtiyaM svapna-sthAnaM

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThann ete ubhe

sthAne paAyatAdaM ca paraloka-sthAnaM ca

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

 

There are two positions about which the jIva-puruSa should

inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual

world.

<font color="red"> The jiva is situated in a third position, </font color> which is a

dreamlike condition (svapna-sthAna), and <font color="blue"> is the juncture

(taTa-stha) between the other two. </font color>

Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet,

he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

 

[anadi]

And as to the jiva falling from the spiritual world you must know that the brahmajyoti is also the spiritual world.

 

 

There is no evidence in the Sastra that the bramajyoti

is the original position of the jiva.

Jiva was defined by Mahaprabhu also as tataStha Sakti,

not as brahamajyoti Sakti.

 

The fact that the <font color="blue"> liberated impersonalists </font color>follow back from the brahmajyoti in the material world

has no relevance to the issue concerning <font color="red"> the original position of the jiva.</font color>

[theist]

 

The duality concept is totally alien to jiva, but

gazing to mAyA from the marginal position, the moment he was attracted by mAyA

the duality was imposed to “him” by the subtle machine called ahaMkara (false ego), by which “he” takes “the identity of another”.

 

 

Oh so he gazed at Maya. Where was he before he gazed? Prabhupada said we were generated from the Brahman, Krsna's effulgence, so that's good enough for me.

 

You like to quote Jaiva Dharma. I haven't read it in a long time but doesn't Bhaktivinode say the same thing. Some as parikara's straight into a certain pasttime in either Vraja or Vaikuntha and some from the effulgence of Maha-Vishnu?

 

Very likely I am remembering it wrong. I admit to not understanding well. I do remember also having some doubts on it.

 

Didn't he also say in that book that to really understand the answer to this question one must go there?

 

Maybe anadi knows and can straighten me out if I am wrong.

 

[anadi]

I know not because I was there, but that I have seen it through the ears from the proper source (personal opinion).

 

The matter of fact I've heard this for the first time in 1996 in Mayapur ISKCON from Banu Maharaja, and he was quoting the same verses from the Jaiva Dharma, that was so nice translated by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja.

 

Later, back in Germany, I was told that this is not true,

but the evidence on the recorded tapes, was too obvious, at least for me.

 

Oh so he gazed at Maya. Where was he before he gazed? Prabhupada said we were generated from the Brahman, Krsna's effulgence, so that's good enough for me.

 

 

All right, I am going to post direct from Jaiva Dharma.

<font color="red"> I won't post everything in one go. </font color>

Everyone's doubt will be dispelled, well not quite everyone's. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

<font color="blue"> BAbAji: This tattva is described in many places in the Vedas. I will

cite a few of them:

yathagneH kSudrA visphuliNgA vyuccaranti

evam evAsmad AtmanaH sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad 2.1.20)

<font color="green"> Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny

sparks from a fire. </font color>

 

tasya vA etasya puruNasya dve eva sthAne

bhavata idaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

sandhyaM tRtiyaM svapna-sthAnaM

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThann ete ubhe

sthAne paAyatAdaM ca paraloka-sthAnaM ca

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

 

There are two positions about which the jIva-puruSa should

inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual

world.

<font color="red"> The jiva is situated in a third position, </font color> which is a

dreamlike condition (svapna-sthAna), and is the juncture

(taTa-stha) between the other two.

<font color="green"> Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet</font color> ,

he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

 

This Sloka describes the marginal nature of jiva-Sakti. Again, it

is said in BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.18):

 

tad yathä mahA-matsya ubhe kule ‘nusaNcarati

pUrvaN cäparaN caivam eAäyaM puruSa etAv ubhAv antAv

anu saNcarati svapnAntaN ca buddhANtaN ca

 

Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern

bank and sometimes to the western bank, <font color="green"> so the jiva, being

situated in kAraNa-jala </font color>(the water of cause that lies between

the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to

both banks, <font color="red"> the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness.</font color>

Vrajanätha: What is the Vedäntic meaning of the word taTastha? </font color>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sometimes the concepts behind the words need to be

clarified in order to understand what the words imply,

so when Prabhupada says the jiva comes from Brahman

we need to understand what that means.

 

As he states Brahman is the all pervading aspect,the energy

of godhead,paramatma is the consciousness of that energy,

bhagavan is the id or personality of that consciousness,

it's not like these are different energies or substances, there is one substance,one energy and the different terms describe the aspects of that energy

for our benenfit and understanding.

 

so when saying the jiva originates in Brahman,we understand

that everything originates from Brahman, why ?

Brahman is the all pervading energy ,paramatma is the

consciousness of that energy,bhagavan is the controlling

aspect.

 

so when terms like tatastha sakti are used we understand that not as a seperate energy,it is given a classification

so we can understand the difference between jiva

and Cit sakti,between the energy that is

the full power and possessor of power and the

ASPECT of that same energy that has partial

or marginal use or experience of that energy.

 

We come from tatastha sakti doesn't mean that there

is a seperate energy called tatastha,it means

we have a slight access or experience of the

full energy,or Brahman,therefore we are called

tatastha, we partake of a portion of the whole

energy,we are in between prakriti,matter,

and Cit,full consciousness, we are neither unconscious

or prakriti nor are we full consciousness,Cit,

therefore we are marginal or in between.

 

but these descriptions are only to help us understand,

in fact there is only One energy,and the various

functions of that energy are classified according

to the particluar function ,prakriti is not a seperate

energy,nor is tatastha, both are the energy of Godhead,

Brahman,but classified for our benefit as being

seperate from each other to enhance our understanding.

 

[Guest guest]

 

jiva in tatashta, which is non different from karana jala (the causal ocean), and explaining in this way why jiva is called mariginal.

 

 

 

jiva IS tatastha.

 

karana jala - viraja river is original Ganga, where eligible muktas bath to give up subtle body -- these eligibles go with Brahma. one path for mukti. touching viraja remove bondage.

 

No origin of jivas in maya

 

 

gazing to mAyA from the marginal position, the moment he was attracted by mAyA

 

 

 

baddha jiva always attracted to maya because subtle body "Ahamkara" is anadi, whether inside or outside Maha Vishnu. Inside Maha Vishnu, jiva is in deep sleep.

 

jiva is marginal because it is conscious but it is overpowered by maya. So it is the border power.

[Guest guest]

where you get karana jal in your quotes?

where you get "some jiva attracted to spiritual world", "some jiva attracted to material world" and what was jiva doing in karana jal before "getting attracted"? Was He created by Vishnu (for His enjoyment?)

where you get anadi = time immemorial, and why not "not beginning"

why give reason to jiva origin when Visvanath Thakur says clearly "no reason for non-devotion"

all gosvamis say anadi = anadi, there is specific sanskrit words for "time immemorial", why they do not know that?

Read book - "In Vaikuntha Not Even Leaves Fall" (available Vrindavan bookstores) for logic in meaning of anadi.

[Guest guest]

BAbAji: This tattva is described in many places in the Vedas. I will

cite a few of them:

yathagneH kSudrA visphuliNgA vyuccaranti

evam evAsmad AtmanaH sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad 2.1.20)

Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny

sparks from a fire.

 

tasya vA etasya puruNasya dve eva sthAne

bhavata idaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

sandhyaM tRtiyaM svapna-sthAnaM

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThann ete ubhe

sthAne paAyatAdaM ca paraloka-sthAnaM ca

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

 

There are two positions about which the jIva-puruSa should

inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual

world.

The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a

dreamlike condition (svapna-sthAna), and is the juncture

(taTa-stha) between the other two.

Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet ,

he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

 

This Sloka describes the marginal nature of jiva-Sakti. Again, it

is said in BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.18):

 

tad yathä mahA-matsya ubhe kule ‘nusaNcarati

pUrvaN cäparaN caivam eAäyaM puruSa etAv ubhAv antAv

anu saNcarati svapnAntaN ca buddhANtaN ca

 

Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern

bank and sometimes to the western bank, so the jiva, being

situated in kAraNa-jala (the water of cause that lies between

the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to

both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness.

Vrajanätha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word taTastha?

 

Bäbäji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the

taTa (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing

but land, so where is the shore? The taTa is the line of distinction

separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it

cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental

realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then

taTa is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-Sakti is situated

at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless

atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in

the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and

the material universe created by mAyA on the other. Just as

BhagavAn’s spiritual Sakti on one side is unlimited, mAyA-çakti on

the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle

(sUkSma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal

by nature because they have manifested from KRSNa’s taTasthaSakti

(marginal potency).

Vrajanätha: What is the taTastha-svabhAva (marginal nature)?

 

[anadi]

Please read very carefully:

 

Jaiva Dharma Prameya Jiva tattva by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

BAbAji: This tattva is described in many places in the Vedas. I will

cite a few of them:

yathagneH kSudrA visphuliNgA vyuccaranti

evam evAsmad AtmanaH sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad 2.1.20)

<font color="blue"> Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny

sparks from a fire. </font color>

 

tasya vA etasya puruNasya dve eva sthAne

bhavata idaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

sandhyaM tRtiyaM svapna-sthAnaM

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThann ete ubhe

sthAne paAyatAdaM ca paraloka-sthAnaM ca

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

 

<font color="blue"> There are two positions about which the jIva-puruSa should

inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual

world.

The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a

dreamlike condition (svapna-sthAna), and is the juncture

(taTa-stha) between the other two.

Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet ,

he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world). </font color>

 

This Sloka describes the marginal nature of jiva-Sakti. Again, it

is said in BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.18):

 

tad yathä mahA-matsya ubhe kule ‘nusaNcarati

pUrvaN cäparaN caivam eAäyaM puruSa etAv ubhAv antAv

anu saNcarati svapnAntaN ca buddhANtaN ca

 

<font color="blue"> Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern

bank and sometimes to the western bank, so the jiva, being

situated in kAraNa-jala (the water of cause that lies between

the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to

both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness. </font color>

 

Vrajanätha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word taTastha?

<font color="purple"> Bäbäji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the

taTa (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing

but land, so where is the shore? <font color="red"> The taTa is the line of distinction

separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it

cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental

realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then

taTa is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-Sakti is situated

at the place where the two meet </font color>. The jivas are like the countless

atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in

the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and

the material universe created by mAyA on the other. Just as

BhagavAn’s spiritual Sakti on one side is unlimited, mAyA-çakti on

the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle

(sUkSma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal

by nature because they have manifested from KRSNa’s taTasthaSakti

(marginal potency).

Vrajanätha: What is the taTastha-svabhAva (marginal nature)?

</font color>

[Guest guest]

***As long as jiva comes from Maha ViSnu, it is clear that jiva was with God, but this expansion of God doesn't have any personal relations with the jivas.

 

Krisna sourse jiva, not Maha visnu. In Maha Visnu conditioned souls.

[Guest guest]

***anAdi &#8212; existing since time immemorial

 

NITYA baddha - etrnal material life. No liberation. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

***anAdi in this context has not the meaning beginingless, but time without memory.

 

Yes because soul come from place when NOT TIME - time without memory. It is so difficult for understanding?

[Guest guest]

***Another meaning is that Maha ViSnu expanded Himself as the Supersoul, which means that before the creation we were with Maha ViSnu, whose abode is the marginal zone between the mat and the spiritual world.

 

Material world create then distruction. Supersoul before creation.

 

The Supersoul has always been ready to help the living entity, even before the creation of this material world. It is therefore stated here: yenAgre vicacartha. The word agre means "before the creation." Thus the Supersoul has been accompanying the living entity since before the creation.

[Guest guest]

***How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality, in the spiritual world?

 

FIRST step duality it is material world. In spiritual world no duality. Spirit soul may go in material world like pure devotee like Lord Brahma and then fall down.

 

Supreme Lord complete independent, soul is part Lord, then she may has independents desire.

[Guest guest]

***Where could the imperfection of duality come from?

 

Internal energy go work like external. Now you come back - you pray internal energy transform external energy. Guru take you external work and do internal. Or guru initiate you in world internal energy.

 

Jagat Prabhu, how me English?

[Guest guest]

***The fact that the liberated impersonalists follow back from the brahmajyoti in the material world

 

Yes brahman more hige material world, but impersonalists fall again. But soul take experiense material world do not fall any more.

[Guest guest]

***BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad 2.1.20)

Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny

sparks from a fire.

 

It is discription brahman. Needs WHOLE sastra for understanding.

[Guest guest]

***Prabhupada says the jiva comes from Brahman

we need to understand what that means.

 

AC bhaktivedanta Swami? He is speak - soul from spiritual world. Krisna sourse soul. It is speak SBT too. SBT write soul fall from spiritual world.

 

But second contecst - soul do not stay in material world it is illusion. Liberation means - soul understand or clear his ETERNAL relations. "anadi" it is not absolute position. Rasa spirit soul it is ETERNAL ABSOLUTE POSITIONS. It is difficult?

 

When they speak - soul burn material world, then she "make" relations with God it is understanding from material platform. SECOND ROOT this understanding - "I AM GURU FROM HIGHE RASA SPIRITUAL WORLD".

 

If you take guru Vaikuntha then you rasa - Vaicuntha.

 

If you take guru goloka then you rasa - Goloka.

 

It is material buisnes. Relation soul with God etrnal. This guru do not understand this obvious FACT.

[Guest guest]

***baddha jiva always attracted to maya because subtle body "Ahamkara" is anadi

 

Material world all anadi. Soul rise from nittya baddha in category nitya siddha. If soul fall, then she stay as nittya baddha because she may stay in material world eternal. Then all souls material world nitya baddha. All souls spiritual world nitya siddha, because spiritual world absolute and all who desire, stay in material world.

 

BUT. Because spiritual world not has material time, then soul may come any time material world. She may was come or will come - SPIRITUAL WORLD NO HAS TIME. When soul come? It is no possible search this point. Tiume has ONLY in material world. It is category material world.

 

Spiritual world in sat degree more big material world, then souls come in material world - any time, and beginless because material world beginless and spiritual world beginless. Me english understand?

 

Soul purificate himself go in 1-2-3- brahmaloka, then go for first point creation, and go above creation. Soul stay above material space and TIME. Soul may see all in this position - creation or destruction material world. No material time she moksa from law material world.

 

In inside material world we in some concrete position in time space, but liberated soul not follow any law or rule.

 

It is clear or not? I am may write home with translator.

[Guest guest]

***where you get anadi = time immemorial, and why not "not beginning"

 

Liberated soul may clear for you this question. Books Srila Prabhupada, but need follow, this not teoretical science.

 

Go in books distribution, cut material bondage. /images/graemlins/smile.gif