The difference (true and less true followers?) - Part 2

[Guest guest]

***The jiva is situated in a third position

 

because all souls eternal free.

[Guest guest]

***he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

 

jiva may take liberation from impersonal brahman?

[anadi]

Krisna sourse jiva, not Maha visnu. In Maha Visnu conditioned souls.

 

 

We can generally say that everything emanated from KRSNa.

 

<font color="blue"> A more clear and detailed knowledge </font color>can we find in

Jaiva Dharma, Prameya Jiva tattva from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

(I broke apart the text for a sequential analysis)

 

Sri KRSNa, being established in each of His Saktis, manifests His

svarUpa according to the nature of that Sakti. <font color="blue"> When He is situated

in the cit-svarüpa</font color>, He manifests His svarUpa as Sri KRSNa and also

as NArAyaNa, the Lord of Paravyoma;

 

<font color="blue"> when He is situated in the

jiva-Sakti</font color> , He manifests His svarUpa as His viläsa-mürti of Vraja,

Baladeva;

 

and <font color="blue"> being established in the mAyA-Sakti</font color> , He manifests

the three ViSNu forms: KäraNodakaçäyé, KSirodakaçäyé and

Garbhodakaçäyé.

 

In His KRSNa form in Vraja, He manifests all the

spiritual affairs to the superlative degree.

 

<font color="blue"> In His Baladeva svarüpa</font color>

as SeZa-tattva, He manifests <font color="red"> nitya-mukta-pärSada-jivas, eternally liberated

associates</font color>, who render eight types of service to KRSNa Sezitattva-

svarUpa, the origin of Seza-tattva.

 

Again, as Seza-rUpa

SaNkarSaNa in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to

render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of

Sezi-rüpa NArAyaNa.

 

<font color="red"> Mahä-ViSNu, who is an avatära of SaìkarSaNa,

situates Himself in the jiva-Sakti, and in His ParamAtmA svarüpa,

He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in

the material world</font color>. These jévas are susceptible to the influence of

mäyä, and unless they attain the shelter of the hlädini-çakti of the

cit-Sakti by BhagavAn’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated

by mAyA remains.

[anadi]

Statement

When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

Refutation

"develop a consciousness of duality"

How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality, in the spiritual world?

 

Statement:

From within yourself.

Refutation

1.Beeing in the spiritual world

2.Where everything is pure (without the duality)

3.If the duality would come from yourself

4.than you are the source of duality (maya)

 

This could be a future conclusion of "the proponents" of "jiva is falling from the spiritual world".

 

Argument:

FIRST step duality it is material world. In spiritual world no duality. Spirit soul may go in material world like pure devotee like Lord Brahma and then fall down.

Refutation:

According to the above statement,

1. a pure devotee, as long as he is in the spiritual world, remains pure, so his love for KRSNa is pure centered attraction, and melting of the heart, but this is not eternal!

2. when a pure devotee comes in maya, then maya takes hold of him, and the pure devotee

forgets KRSNa, which is an offense against the pure devotee. A pure devotee never forgets kRSNa and always remembers Him, and by his association makes all be directed to KRSNa.

3. What makes a pure devotee come to maya? Except his preaching mission, and accompanying the Lord in His lila, there is no other reason.

4.If one would say that the pure devotee comes in this world for his enjoyment, he is an offender, because that would mean he is not a pure devotee.

5. If one says that a pure devotee, can be covered by maya and at any time forgets the Lord, and bhakti (the service to the Lord) than one is an offender, than that would mean he is not a pure devotee.(A pure devotee never forgets kRSNa and always remembers Him)

6. Lord Brahma was not a pure devotee. He stole the sakhas and the calves of the small kRSNa and than he repented. Than he wanted to come and play with the sakhas and kRSNa, but nobody paid attention to him. Sri kRSNa was merciful with him and allowed him to come in His Caitanya lila and taught him first of being humble, and thus to live in the body of Haridasa Thakura, and taste the nectar of the Holy Name continuously.

 

[anadi]

Jaiva Dharma Prameya Jiva tattva by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

BAbAji: This tattva is described in many places in the Vedas. I will

cite a few of them:

yathagneH kSudrA visphuliNgA vyuccaranti

evam evAsmad AtmanaH sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad 2.1.20)

Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny

sparks from a fire.

 

tasya vA etasya puruNasya dve eva sthAne

bhavata idaN ca paraloka-sthAnaN ca

sandhyaM tRtiyaM svapna-sthAnaM

tasmin sandhye sthAne tiSThann ete ubhe

sthAne paAyatAdaM ca paraloka-sthAnaM ca

 

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

 

There are two positions about which the jIva-puruSa should

inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual

world.

<font color="red"> The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a

dreamlike condition (svapna-sthAna), and is the juncture

(taTa-stha) between the other two. </font color>

Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet ,

he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

 

This Sloka describes the marginal nature of jiva-Sakti. Again, it

is said in BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.18):

 

tad yathä mahA-matsya ubhe kule ‘nusaNcarati

pUrvaN cäparaN caivam eAäyaM puruSa etAv ubhAv antAv

anu saNcarati svapnAntaN ca buddhANtaN ca

 

Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern

bank and sometimes to the western bank, <font color="red"> so the jiva, being

situated in kAraNa-jala (the water of cause that lies between

the inert and conscious worlds)</font color>, also gradually wanders to

both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness.

 

<font color="red"> Vrajanätha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word taTastha? </font color>

Bäbäji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the

taTa (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing

but land, so where is the shore? The taTa is the line of distinction

separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it

cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental

realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then

taTa is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-Sakti is situated

at the place where the two meet . The jivas are like the countless

atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in

the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and

the material universe created by mAyA on the other. Just as

BhagavAn’s spiritual Sakti on one side is unlimited, mAyA-Sakti on

the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle

(sUkSma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal

by nature because they have manifested from KRSNa’s taTasthaSakti

(marginal potency).

Vrajanätha: What is the taTastha-svabhAva (marginal nature)?

 

<font color="blue"> Vrajanätha: What is the taTastha-svabhäva (marginal nature)?

Bäbäjé: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between

both worlds, and to see both sides. TaTastha-svabhAva is the eligibility

to come under the control of either of the Saktis. Sometimes

the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then

again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its

course. If the jiva looks in the direction of KRSNa – that is, towards

the spiritual world – he is influenced by KRSNa çakti. He then enters

the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavän in his pure, conscious,

spiritual form. However, if he looks towards mäyä , he becomes

opposed to KRSNa and is incarcerated by mäyä. This dual-faceted nature is called the taTastha-svabhAva (marginal nature).

Vrajanätha: Is there any material component in the jéva’s original

constitution? </font color>

[Guest guest]

"...unless they attain the shelter of the hlädini-çakti of the cit-Sakti by BhagavAn’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by mAyA remains."

 

This statement represents the essence of all we need to know in order to attain perfection. The process is personal, entirely dependent on Sri Krsna mercifully awarding the shelter of Srimati Radharani. While objective explanations certainly have their role to play, ultimately it's all highly personal. God's mercy has been described as causeless, in other words we cannot necessarily obtain it through our own efforts. Devotional service {Radha} remains a gift, never under our control. Remembering this helps us to appreciate Her and always remain grateful.

 

Lord Caitanya expresses the desire to share His most precious gifts with everyone, yet somehow we keep getting in our own way, stumbling over ourselves. Admitting my helplessness and the utterly hopeless situation I'm in, understanding that He is right here with me at every moment and crying out for His Divine Grace, constantly admitting how completely disqualified I am, sometimes helps.

 

Still, criticising others and not trying to develop a humble service attitude towards everyone will separate ourselves from She who is the epitome of humble service. That's why it's called "apaRADHA." Hare Krsna, prabhus!

[Guest guest]

 

defeated by mAyA

 

 

 

This is a typical mentality of thinking Krishna is the big dictator. There is no purpose of His fulfilled by making us go through the grind. It is because we choose to be here that is why we here. What great achievement will the infinite do on defeating the infinitesimal??!!! Those whose hearts are soft for Krishna will get chance to serve Him in that manner, but those who think He is a dictator, will also get their wishes fulfilled and serve under Krishna dictator.

[Guest guest]

***He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in

the material world.

 

Yes. But He is not sourse this jivas. SBT write Krisna sourse souls. Souls fall from serve Krisna.

 

Txancs.

[Guest guest]

***Statement

When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

Refutation

"develop a consciousness of duality"

How can you develop a consciousness of duality in the world without duality, in the spiritual world?

 

Anadi more big then SP.

[Guest guest]

***They are establishing that he was the founder of ISKCON, but I know that he was not founder;

 

Srila Prabhupada founder-acarya Gaudiya sampradaya and ISKCON.

 

***he was (is) one of the members of this in guru-paramparA .

 

Srila Prabhupada bhagavata acarya, He is not ordinary guru.

 

***It was founded by KRSNa, and first AcArya was BrahmA, then NArada, then VyAsa.

 

Srila Prabhupada founder-acarya Gaudiya sampradaya similar Lord Brahma, Madhvacarya, Srila Madhavendra Puri, Raghunatha Gosvami, Narottama dasa Thakur.

 

Lord Krisna send PERSONALLY Srila Prabhupada start His parampara in this world. Krisna send Srila Prabhupada for start golden age. Srila Prabhupada bhagavata acarya in parampara and He is describe last word parampara.

 

***Only he has changed the name (for oficial registration) and he has preached these things in

Western countries.

 

Srila Prabhupada reform all GM, who do not follow true. Srila Prabhupada preaches India first of all. Movement was planned to begin in India, but devotees to "India" appeared are less suitable for this purpose. Srila Prabhupada preaches to all world, India and apa sampradayas too.

 

***MathurA: October 24, 1999:

&#8220;We can glorify SwAmiji, BhaktivedAnta Swami MahArAja. But

those who are falling down, how can they glorify him?

 

We can glorify SBST. But those who are falling down, how can they glorify Him? We can glorify Advaita Acarya. But those sons who are falling down, how can they glorify Him? It is offensive.

 

***They cannot glorify him, never;

 

All disciples Srila Prabhupada very dear to Him. No any His brother in God in level disciple Srila Prabhupada. His brothers all envy, they destroy only spiritual mission. BUT all disciples Srila Prabhupada dear to Him. Srila Prabhupada take His disciple like His brothers in God, no another.

 

***they are cutting.

 

They all will be liberation in all they rasas. Some in this life, some after. But who stay in some organisations they cutting some from parampara and stay like sects and cutting from raganuga devotion.

 

***They are establishing that he was the founder of ISKCON,

 

Lord Balarama establishing that His dvine grace IS the founder-acarya of ISKCON. Lord Siva establishing that His dvine grace IS the founder-acarya of ISKCON. Lord Brahma establishing that His dvine grace IS the founder-acarya of ISKCON. Gosvamis Vrindavan establishing that His divine grace IS the founder-acarya of ISKCON. Srila Bhaktisidhanta establishing that His dvine grace IS the founder-acarya of ISKCON. Lord Caitanya establishing that His divine grace IS the founder-acarya of ISKCON.

 

Some GM do not understand Prabhupada, do not understand spiritual position Prabhupada, do not understand Prabhupada pfilosophi. They do not follow Prabhupada, then they do not will give any commentary about Srila Prabhupada, because some commentary on Srila Prabhupada, it is ofences Srila Prabhupada. Politic using name Srila Prabhupada for own material interests.

 

They only try destroy mission Prabhupada and steal disciples Srila Prabhupada, disciples ISKCON, wide professional distribution gossips about ISKCON for destroy ISKCON. They as support "their" people in ISKCON and thus try to split ISKCON from within.

 

All who wanted to leave from ISKCON HAVE LEFT. I know personally peoples received the CONSENT their guru and then they have left in Veda samiti. But those who remain in ISKCON him it is RECOMMENDED to not communicate with Veda samiti because Veda samiti are occupied in insults ISKCON and guru ISKCON it is professional.

 

 

-------------------------

 

***Q. Jaiva-dharma states that souls emanating from Maha-Visnu have some kind of vision of both the maya world and the spiritual world and from that vision they choose which of the two worlds to enter. This and various statements in Prabhupada's books support the contention that the jiva does not fall from Vaikuntha (the spiritual world). But there are other statements in Prabhupada's books that seem to say that souls fell into the material world from an active relationship with Krsna in Vaikuntha because somehow or other they became envious of Krsna. Why the difference in these accounts? A. Acaryas offer different explanations in consideration of their audience.

 

 

It is true about fall soul. Soul fall from spiritual world, soul not fall from spiritual world - it is complete true. But for us needs understand FIRST - soul fall from Vaikuntha.

 

***Jaiva-dharma states that souls emanating from Maha-Visnu have some kind of vision of both the maya world and the spiritual world and from that vision they choose which of the two worlds to enter.

 

Whence they take it? I am read some Jaiva dharma -

 

" To that place Lord Maha-Visnu goes and reclines on the Karana Ocean. Thus He is Karanodakasayi Visnu. Glancing at her from far away, the Lord employs Maya-devi to create the MATERIAL world. "

 

"The particles of light that constitute Lord Maha-Visnu's glance are the CONDITIONED spirit souls. "

 

" Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-sakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the MATERIAL world. "

 

???

 

Lord Krsna is the master of limitless potencies. All these potencies are perfectly manifested in the spiritual world. For the manifestation of the individual souls one particular potency, the tatastha sakti is employed.

 

Krsna is self-effulgent, like a blazing fire or the sun. Krsna is like a blazing fire. In the center of the fire is the cit-sakti is present in fullness. In addition to the center there is also a great expanse illuminated by the fire. The same way the Krsna-sun illumines a great area with sunlight. The rays of sunlight are particles of His internal potency (svarupa sakti). Those atomic particles that constitute those rays of sunlight are the individual spirit souls. The internal potency (svarupa sakti) manifests the Krsna-sun planet itself. The sunlight emanating from that planet is manifested by the cit-sakti and the individual particles of light are manifested by the jiva-sakti. Therefore the individual spirit souls are manifested by the jiva-sakti.

 

In all the Vedas it is said that the individual souls are like sparks emanating from the blazing fire of Lord Krsna. However none of these comparisons give a completely accurate picture of the real truth. The examples of the great fire and the spark, the sun and the rays of light, and the alchemists stone and gold do not describe the entire situation. Therefore, rejecting these material analogies, one should look inside his heart and there he will understand the truth of the soul's nature.

 

This potency is also called jiva-tattva (the individual spirit souls). The individual souls are tiny particles of spirit. Because they are tiny particles, they may attain bondage in the material world.

 

A tiny fragment of the internal potency is the jiva-sakti and a perverted reflection of the internal potency is the maya-sakti.

 

"Spirit, which is conscious and pure, and matter, which is inanimate, are opposites. Therefore it is not really possible for the conscious spirit soul to have a relationship with unconscious and inanimate matter.

 

The individual soul is spiritual. Nevertheless the spiritual soul may be placed under the control of inanimate matter.

 

"The eternal nature and duty of the individual soul is service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he forgets this duty, the individual souls comes under maya&#8217;s control. Then the soul stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters the material world.

 

"It is not possible to give an historical account describing when, in time, the soul first fell into the material world. That is why it is said &#8216;anadi-bahirmukha&#8217; (the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial). This staying away from Krsna and the time of entering maya&#8217;s world are both different from the soul&#8217;s eternal nature. They are perversions of it.

 

The individual soul is a tiny particle of spirit. The first situation of the soul is on the boundary line that separates the spiritual and material worlds. In that condition the souls that do not forget their original relationship with Lord Krsna come under the control of the spiritual potency and are drawn into the spiritual world. Becoming eternal associates of Lord Krsna, they enjoy the bliss of serving Him directly. The souls who are averse to Lord Krsna and who wish to enjoy the pleasures offered to maya are drawn into the world of maya. That is why we now reside in the material world. When we enter the material world we forget our true spiritual identity."

 

Whence they take about Maha Visnu??

 

Blind sraddha it is not true way. It is not uttama way, but Srila Prabhupada theach way uttama. Needs sraddha and knowlege. Only sraddha way for sentiments and fanatism, only knowlege way for speculations. Because GM do not know sastra properly they speak -"Spiritual progress is based more on faith". Lord Jesus - all heard ( sraddha ) all reason (intellect) it is perfect uttama way.

 

But "sraddha" material too. Spirit soul HAS mind and intellect, spiritual intellect. It is necessary to spiritualize both faith and intelligence. Without intelligence the faith will be weak and will not develop. Without intelligence the faith can go in an incorrect direction. FAITH, but in WHAT YOU TRUST? Intelligence origins to the satisfaction, faith origins to the material satisfaction. In some organisations they emphasize "sraddha" for that what to supervise Srila Prabhupada's disciples.

 

 

---------------------

 

 

***it's not like these are different energies or substances, there is one substance,one energy and the different terms describe the aspects of that energy

for our benenfit and understanding.

 

Yes it is aspect sat. He is connect both - material world and spiritual world.

 

----------------------

 

Srila Prabhupada about tatastha.

 

"The living entities, who are residents of the spiritual as well as the material expansions, are His marginal energy (tatastha-sakti), and they are at liberty to live in either of the energies, external or internal. Those who live within the spiritual expansion of the Lord are called liberated souls, whereas the residents of the external expansion are called the conditioned souls.

 

"The spiritual potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead also appears in three phases&#8212;internal, marginal and external. These are all engaged in His devotional service in love.

Madhya 6.110

 

It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

'tatastha&#8212;marginal'

Madhya 20.108-109

 

When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha-sakti) forget the service of Krsna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga.

 

We living entities are vibhinnamsa. We are also expansions of Krsna. So He is expanding Himself in so many ways. Svamsa, vibhinnamsa, and sakti, tatastha-sakti, cit-sakti, antaranga-sakti, bahiranga-sakti. So we have to understand Krsna in that way. And if we study scrutinizingly all these literatures, we shall come to the conclusion that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Tatastha means, marginal means... You can have a conception of marginal in the sea beach. The same place, walking, is sometimes covered with water, and sometimes it is land. This is called marginal, between the water and the land. So we living entities, we are marginal. Sometimes we are under the protection of the spiritual energy, and sometimes we are under the protection of the material energy. We are under protection; we are not independent.

 

We are marginal energy. We living entities, we belong to the marginal energy, tatastha-sakti. Marginal means we can remain in the material energy or in the spiritual energy.

 

Therefore we living entities, we are described, tatastha. Tatastha means marginal. Actually, we are spirit soul, our position in the spiritual world, but we are sometimes fallen down in this material world on account of our desire to enjoy.

 

So we are tatastha-sakti. The idea is... tatastha means marginal. We can fall down in the material world, and we can raise ourself in the spiritual world. This is our position.

 

Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained, tatastha-sakti, marginal. Marginal means the living entity has to become servant. That is his position. Jivera svarupa haya nitya Krsna dasa. But when the servant wants to become master, he is under the clutches of maya. And when he understands that 'I am not master; I am servant,' he is under Krsna. That is tatastha. Tatastha means marginal. That tata... Tata means the beach. Sometimes the beach is covered with water, and sometimes it is land. That is called tatastha. So that land, sometimes water.

 

So we are called tatastha, means marginal. Marginal means we can remain either way. Either on God's side or maya's side. That is my choice. So when we don't want to serve God, then we are sent to the maya, to serve maya. Maya means his position as servant remains the same, but he thinks "I am master." That is maya. He is Just like a child trying to do something father does not like. But when he cries, he's given that. "All right. Do this.' But 'All right, do this' or 'Do that,' he is under the father. He is under the control of the father. But when he is given such chance, 'Oh, I am independent now. I am independent.' So this is called maya. He's never independent, but he thinks, 'I am independent.'

[anadi]

Jaiva Dharma Prameya Jiva tattva by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

<font color="blue"> VrajanAtha: So mAyA has nothing whatever to do with creating

the svarUpa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time,

I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to

the influence of mAyA. Now I want to know, did the cit-Sakti create

the jivas and give them their taTastha-svabhAva (marginal nature)?

BAbAji: No, the cit-Sakti is paripUrNa Sakti, the complete potency

of KRSNa, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.

 

<font color="red"> The jiva is not nitya-siddha</font color>, although when he performs sAdhana,

he can become sAdhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness

like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings.

All the four types of Srimati RAdhikA’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct

expansions (kAya-vyUha) of the cit-Sakti, Srimati RadhikA Herself.

 

<font color="green"> All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri KRSNa’s jiva-Sakti. </font color>

The cit-Sakti is Sri KRSNa’s complete Sakti, whereas the jiva-Sakti is His incomplete Sakti.

Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable

atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete Sakti.

 

Sri KRSNa, being established in each of His Saktis, manifests His

svarUpa according to the nature of that Sakti.

When He is situated in the cit-svarUpa, He manifests His svarUpa as Sri KRSNa and also

as NArAyaNa, the Lord of Paravyoma;

when He is situated in the jiva-Sakti, He manifests His svarUpa as His vilAsa-mUrti of Vraja,

Baladeva;

and being established in the mAyA-Sakti, He manifests the three ViSNu forms: KAraNodakaSAyi, KSirodakaSAyi and GarbhodakaSAyi.

 

In His KRSNa form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree.

In His Baladeva svarUpa as Seza-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-pArSada-jivas, eternally liberated

associates, who render eight types of service to KRSNa Sezé-tattva-svarUpa, the origin of Seza-tattva.

Again, as Seza-rupa SaNkarSaNa in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to

render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of Sezi-rUpa NArAyaNa.

 

<font color="green"> MahA-ViSNu, who is an avatAra of SaNkarSaNa, situates Himself in the jiva-Sakti, and in His ParamAtmA svarUpa, He manifests the jivas <font color="red"> who have the potential</font color> to be involved in

the material world. </font color>

 

These jivas are susceptible to the influence of mAyA, and unless they attain the shelter of the hlAdini-Sakti of the cit-Sakti by BhagavAn’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by mAyA remains.

 

The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by mAyA are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhAnta is that it is only the jiva-Sakti, and not the cit-Sakti, that manifests the jivas.

 

VrajanAtha: What is the taTastha-svabhAva (marginal nature)?

BAbAji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between

both worlds, and to see both sides. <font color="red"> TaTastha-svabhAva is the eligibility

to come under the control of either of the Saktis</font color> . Sometimes

the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then

again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its

course. If the jiva looks in the direction of KRSNa – that is, towards

the spiritual world – he is influenced by KRSNa Sakti. He then enters

the spiritual world, and serves BhagavAn in his pure, conscious,

spiritual form. However, if he looks towards mAyA , he becomes

opposed to KRSNa and is incarcerated by mAyA. This dual-faceted nature is called the taTastha-svabhAva (marginal nature).</font color>

But the one that comes to KRSNa either from the material world or direct from the causal ocean (taTastha region) will never come in the material world.

In the Caitanya-caritamrta, (Antya, 3,72-74):

Mahaprabhu said:

"If all the conditioned souls would attain liberation the world would become empty."

Haridasa replied:

"As long as You are in this mortal world You will liberate all the mobile and immobile creatures and send them to Vaikuntha. Then <font color="green"> You will again engage subtle (dormant, new) living entities </font color>in further fruitive activities, and these mobile and immobile living entities will fill the world up like before"

 

confirmed in BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.9)

 

There are two positions about which the jIva-puruSa should

inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual

world.

<font color="green"> The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a

dreamlike condition (svapna-sthAna) </font color>, and is the juncture

(taTa-stha) between the other two.

Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet ,

he sees both the jaDa-jagat (inert

world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).

and BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (4.3.18):

 

Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern

bank and sometimes to the western bank, so the jiva, being

<font color="green"> situated in kAraNa-jala </font color>(the water of cause that lies between

the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to

both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness.

[Guest guest]

Soul fall. Another way person not fall from heaven, from brahman or there person little rise and then never fall. It is wery simple. Sastra describe "fall-not fall" FOR UNDERSTANDING, not for speculations or political battle, or formal -"fall", "not fall", "fall", "not fall". /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

She is fall, she is not fall. Soul not fall because she is puru spirit, but if you not understand own, then you fall. Soul fall it is obvious and more need for understanding.

[anadi]

Tridandi Gosvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

ORIGIN OF JIVA-TATTVA

 

A Response to the Controversy

 

 

Submitted by Srimati Radhika devi dasi

 

 

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja recently gave a 5-day seminar in Paderbon, Germany, on the first two chapters of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma. One of the important topics in Chapter Two is the nature and origin of jiva-tattva. Therefore, in his class explaining that chapter, Srila Maharaja took the opportunity to discuss the controversy over whether or not the living entity fell from the spiritual world. Srila Maharaja had given a very similar class one year earlier, in Badger, California (New Vraja) on June 2, 2000. Therefore, rather than re-invent the wheel, or rather than transcribe this recent Dec.15th lecture, we pray that the lecture of June 2nd will give you inspiration.]

 

If you want to have krsna-prema, you will have to follow the six Gosvamis. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Jiva Gosvami, Srila Rupa Gosvami -- all were like this. None are inferior to the other. When we will try to judge, we will see that each one of them is so high. We will not be able to decide. They were so humble, knowing all these special truths. If we want to achieve the goal of our life, which is krsna-prema, we will have to follow in this birth. Or, if it is not possible to fully follow in this birth, we will have to gradually follow the process for lakhs and lakhs of births. It may take a day or a moment, but you will have to follow. There is no other way. Better to follow in this life.

 

Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Mahaprabhu, "I have come to this world, but I don't know who I am. Who am I?" Mahaprabhu replied…

 

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya lila, chapter 20, text 102: 'ke ami kene amaya jare tapa-traya, iha nahi jani kemane hita haya'. Translation by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. In this verse Srila Sanatana Gosvamipada is inquiring from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. "Who am I? Why do the threefold miseries always give me trouble? If I do not know this, how can I be benefited? Actually, I do not know how to inquire about sadhya, the goal of life, and sadhana, the process for obtaining it. Being merciful upon me. Please explain all these truths."

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I consider that, "I am Narayana Maharaja." He considers that, "I am Isa prabhu", "I am Krsna Bhajana prabhu." Why did this question come? Really, none of us know who we are by constitution. Mahaprabhu is telling Sanatana Gosvami, "You know everything, but you are questioning for the benefit of others. Sadhura svabhava… ["Therefore He is saying that 'By the grace of Krsna you are empowered, and so you have come to Me to help Me. You are asking. That is very good on your part because jani, you know everything." Dardhya lagi' puche sadhura svabhava. A sadhu, a saintly person, although he knows everything, still he remains very humble and tries to confirm from the higher authorities, 'I think this is right. Is it not right?' He knows it is all right, but still he waits for the higher authority to confirm it. So this is the relationship between Sanatana Gosvami and Caitanya Mahaprabhu.' (1976 Cc. Mad.20.105 lecture by Srila Prabhupada)] Why do sadhus ask questions? To confirm. Therefore you are asking." Then He said, "You are not really Sanatana, in the sense that you are not this physical body. Jivera svarupa haya…" What has Srila Swami Maharaja written?

 

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied to Sanatana Gosvami, "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna, because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal energy of Krsna, and a manifestation, simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire."

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Mahaprabhu is answering, "Jivera svarupa haya…By constitution, all human beings, all creatures, birds, animals, even trees and creepers, even very small worms and insects, those who somehow have life -- are all by constitution eternal servants of Krsna. So we are also like this. Krsnera tatastha sakti. All souls are tatastha sakti parinam."

 

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] They are the transformation of the marginal potency.

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] They are not the transformation of hladini and samvit. They are not from the spiritual world. Then Mahaprabhu is telling, "Krsna bhuli' sei jiva."

 

 

 

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] Mahaprabhu continued, "Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore, the illusory energy, maya, gives him all kinds of misery in this material existence."

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Here a question comes. If all souls are eternal servants of Krsna, then when did they become bahirmukha? When did they become adverse to Krsna? Why did they turn away from Krsna? Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami has explained this by quoting the version of Caitanya Mahaprabhu: "krsna bhuli' sei jiva" Who is the jiva? He is the eternal servant of Krsna. He is tatastha-sakti: not pure svarupa-sakti. This should be remembered always.

From svarup-sakti comes Krsna, Nrsimha, Rama, and so on. They are svansa, and they have come from there. The vibhinnansa-tattva jiva never came from svarupa-sakti, and therefore he is called vibhinnansa jiva. Why did he become adverse to Krsna? This is the question. If he is Krsna's eternal servant, he must serve Him. This is explained in chapter 22, verses 10-13, beginning, 'sei vibhinnansa jiva.'

 

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] "The living entities, the jivas, are divided into two categories."

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes, the jiva has been divided into two categories.

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] "Some are nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned."

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Eternally?

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] Conditioned.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] What does it mean? Eternally? What is the meaning?

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] Eternally conditioned.

[sripad Brajanatha Prabhu:] Eternally, what does it mean?

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] Eternally? Forever.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] No.

[Devotee:] The time that we have been conditioned is so vast that it cannot be calculated, but it doesn't mean forever.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes. Then, 'nitya-mukta nitya krsna carane unmukha.'

[sripad Aranya Maharaja:] "Those who are eternally liberated…."

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Those who are senior should very carefully hear this. Those who are beginners cannot understand, but they should also try to understand.