Poison of Exclusivism

[kailasa]

Poison "ecstatic loving mood".

[Guest guest]

***Elitism, class struggle and disharmony among devotees

 

Yes, elitism it is single-guru, exclusivism. Wars in GM.

 

***Yet they use their positions to justify portraying themselves as unquestionably advanced devotees, and demand uncritical acceptance as such.

 

Oh, yes.

 

***The leaders strive to limit debate.

 

Needs sradddha in guru, no debate, only - "ISKCON bad" debate. Spiritual science.

 

***discourage asking searching questions,

 

No discourage asking searching questions in GM.

 

***This goes against the trends of the times, strongly limiting the appeal of current devotional organizations to intelligent and resourceful people.

 

Yes all intelligents taste rasa and steal disciples, write slander in another organisation. Good.

 

***Consequently, devotional organizations increasingly become populated by unintelligent, uncreative people who are content to be part of a herd and do not even realize that they are being exploited.

 

"Part of a herd". "We can understand from these definitions that exclusivism is a mode of thought, a material conception much favored by the denizens of Kali-yuga, who consider it very desirable to be counted among an exclusive coterie. "

 

***It also creates a negative emotional atmosphere of artificial controversy and political tension.

 

This offensive posts creates a negative emotional atmosphere. Ofences like "kenguru" creates a negative emotional atmosphere. "Part of a herd" - they feel big rise - they not "Part of a herd"! Ooo, it is not "elitism, exclusivism".

 

***Secret inner circles, hidden agendas and criminal activities

 

ISKCON open, who inner circles Vedanta Samiti? I am do not know. Vedanta Samiti write about ISKCON but not write about himself nothing. Secret inner circles. In Vedanta Samiti no mistakes, oh yes. In Vedanta Samiti no problem. Oh yes. Vedanta Samiti write about ISKCON, and live in account ISKCON. It is intelligents.

 

***hidden agendas

 

Oh eee Vedanta Samiti very open.

 

***criminal activities

 

??? In Vedanta Samitis has arguments? Oh ee they do not write who "criminal activities". Very open.

 

***In an exclusivist regime, organizational power tends to become consolidated among the most highly motivated and least principled players.

 

least principled players? Hmm...least principled players - go from ISKCON and then try do trouble ISKCON. They go from ISKCON? - they happy?? or not? Ohhh they care about anothers! who are content to be part of a herd! O, it is intelligents.

 

***the most morally corrupt, deceptive and secretive manipulators have an unfair advantage over the open-hearted, sincere and truthful devotees.

 

All open-hearted, sincere and truthful devotees stay in Vedanta Samiti. Yes. Sincere - they disobey his spiritual master Srila Prabhupada, this disciple - sincere-open-hearted and truthful.

 

***secretly warring, Machiavellian factions.

 

O it is paragraph about some GM?

 

***from tainted sources and even engaging the services of hit men to eliminate perceived competitors.

 

Who? GM?

 

***Prominence and position depend upon personal charisma and political acumen, rather than actual spiritual advancement

 

Prominence and position depend upon personal posts in organisation and political acumen own organisation, rather than actual spiritual advancement?

 

***This leads to a downward spiral of progressively increasing untruthfulness, until no one is sure what is truth and what is falsehood.

 

Will open books SP.

 

***Anyone who attempts to express individual opinions outside the party line of their group finds themselves immediately cut off from association and support.

 

In Veda Samiti they speak them - "you will go in hell". If you in Veda samiti you has two ways - follow "open-hearted, sincere and truthful devotees" or go in hell.

 

***The threat of ostracism, backed up with highly visible examples of those who stray from the fold, is used to keep members in line.

 

In Vedanta Samiti they do not any freedom, it is obvious. They "freedom" do ofences - frankensteins.

 

***As soon as a religious organization deviates from the universal principles of sanatana-dharma, bhakti-devi flees far away.

 

As soon as a religious organization deviates from instruction acarya, bhakti-devi flees far away. And they "preach" only ofences and glorifies himself. O, it is very intelligent and humbly.

 

***The atmosphere becomes strident and turbulent instead of peaceful and loving. Devotees become distrustful of one another, losing their certainty in the effectiveness of Krsna consciousness as a means to spiritual advancement. All this contributes to a catastrophic loss of faith and trust among the adherents of any group afflicted with exclusivism.

 

But in sect no problem - All do spiritual advancement. Yes. USSR.

 

***Classes become political diatribes

 

I am not hear not one this classes in ISKCON. I am read VNN and see aparadha, it is yes.

 

***in fund-raising to support the materialistic excesses of the leaders.

 

They do not know reality. In west some work for "support the materialistic excesses of the leaders"? Veda samiti fund-raising to support the materialistic excesses of the leaders? Caitanya sarasvat fund-raising to support the materialistic excesses of the leaders? This write - open-hearted, sincere and truthful devotees.

 

***Intelligent discussion outside of polemical doctrinal debate becomes impossible.

 

Give any site Vedanta Samiti for polemical doctrinal debate. They has ANY open site? "polemical doctrinal debate". Anybody speak me.

 

***Deep questioning is actively discouraged.

 

I am has some deep questioning. They do not actively discouraged? Or they will be actively discouraged? They has ANY OPEN site? or "intelligent discussion outside of polemical doctrinal debate becomes impossible. "

 

***Repeated, unauthorized changes to philosophy and books

 

Follow yours guru. You go away from ISKCON. You do not folloower Srila Prabhupada, you do not stay in organisation SP. They do not follow Spila Prabhupada, but...so many advices. Stay in OWN organisations, do OWN problems. If YOU do advise, then ANOTHER too do advise for you.

 

***Political issues begin to outweigh the importance of careful understanding, analysis and preservation of siddhanta.

 

They do not know about fall jiva. Some cheat this people. - "ISKCON bad".

 

***that most have never clearly heard the actual philosophy.

 

Oh eee, we read yours site.

 

***Such ill-trained devotees cannot distinguish the actual siddhanta of Krsna consciousness from the deceptive, warped misinterpretations they have received from the leaders, whose actual goal is not to help others become Krsna conscious, but simply to cement their own leadership positions. This attitude naturally leads to changing the organizations books and other materials to reflect the leaders exclusivist bias.

 

Yes Prabhu, yes, very well, bravo. Yors "cermon" it is "they have received from the leaders, whose actual goal is not to help others become Krsna conscious, but simply to cement their own leadership positions. "

 

***This attitude naturally leads to changing the organizations books and other materials to reflect the leaders exclusivist bias.

 

Yes, they delete organisation own spiritual master for - "simply to cement their own leadership positions. "

 

And they books - "other materials to reflect the leaders exclusivist bias." Yes.

 

***Important decisions that may significantly affect devotees lives are made without consulting the persons in question, or allowing them to voice their concerns.

 

What important decisions? Very open.

 

***Instead of accepting legitimate constructive criticism and improving their management skills to benefit the group members, they twist any questioning or criticism into an offense, and then seek to marginalize the offender.

 

Instead of accepting legitimate constructive criticism and improving their devotional servise to benefit the group members, they twist any questioning or criticism into an offense, and then seek to marginalize the offender. Do not twist any kailasa's questioning or criticism into an offense.

 

***Anyone who brings up issues viewed as inconvenient by the leadership risks having their personal issues and all gossip about them, factual or not, made public knowledge.

 

I am write about ISKCON so many in Russia, but no problem.

 

***Sexism

 

They has guru-woman? Who Sexist?

 

***Exclusivism inevitably leads to religious schisms

 

Yes, and create many GM.

 

***as devotees attempt to find safe venues for devotional advancement.

 

??? safe venues for devotional advancement it is no reading VNN.

 

***Unfortunately, such schisms usually preclude the same scenarios playing out all over again in the new group, because devotees bring their exclusivist conditioning with them.

 

They do aparadha SBST, give this aparadha in parampara, and "the same scenarios playing out all over again in the new group because devotees bring their aparadha conditioning with them."

 

"ISKCON bad".

 

***We will continue to make the same mistakes over and over again, until and unless the primary misunderstanding is isolated and completely uprooted from our consciousness.

 

Yes - needs GBC gaudiya Math, no need "single acaryas" and some sraddha devotees.

 

***When do we hear glowing reports of devotees becoming fully Krsna conscious?

 

Oh eee they has - "glowing reports of devotees becoming fully Krsna conscious?" VNN - "glowing reports of devotees becoming fully Krsna conscious?"

 

***We often hear of devotees falling down, because it supports the exclusivist theory: Just see, we always knew he was in maya.

 

Do not be fly, in yours organisations has many problem, but ISKCON has some brain and not stay like flys.

 

***Just see, we always knew he was in maya.

 

They worry, because they sraddha - "ISKCON bad, but I am open-hearted-truthful-honest-sincere- intelligents" breaks.

 

***In truth, we should be very concerned that we do not hear of devotees realizing pure Krsna consciousness.

 

Because "devotees realizing pure Krsna consciousness" - humble. "Devotees realizing pure Krsna consciousness" do not run - " I am devotee realizing pure Krsna consciousness! I am devotee realizing pure Krsna consciousness!"

 

***The possibility that in the 35 years since Srila Prabhupada came to the West, none of his thousands of disciples has understood his teaching well enough to realize Krsna consciousness or the pure Holy Name for themselves, is extremely unlikely.

 

They know - sraddha-nistha..., yours Vedanta Samiti speak only some stamp, no more.

 

***If we have not heard of anyone who has.

 

This offenders was attempt destroy faith in Srila Prabhupada, but... open - hearted - truthful - honest - sincere - intelligents organisation.

 

***this means that our devotional communication system has become biased against good news, which is being filtered out by our uncharitable, exclusivism-contaminated attitudes.

 

Oh eee they feel some? You stay in sect, how any dialoge possible? You follow eternal truth, no any mistakes. This big man or another "post-oficer" Vedanta Samiti? Who send you?

 

Do not write nothing about ISKCON. Stay pacefully in own organisation. Write about GM. Write fresh gossips about Vedanta samiti.

 

***Due to the above, actually spiritually-advanced devotees remain unrecognized,

 

They write some speculations, you not has real fact. It is not reality, it is yours concoctions.

 

***The symptoms of spiritual advancement are very subtle, and properly can be ascertained only by another similarly advanced soul.

 

Like they -"we advanced soul. We see all mistakes in another organisations. We advanced soul, we nisha-bhava-prema bhaktas." Hmm, big persons. It is not "elitism, exclusivism", no kailasa, you - "people who are content to be part of a herd and do not even realize that they are being exploited". It is not "elitism, exclusivism", no kailasa. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***This leads to rejection and harassment of any devotees who may actually realize Krsna consciousness or the pure Holy Name, and attempt to spread their attitudes and realizations to others.

 

We read all yours organisations preaching. But you is not stay in line Srila Prabhupada. ISKCON follow for Srila Prabhuoada it is PARAMPARA. Srila Prabhupada pure devotee, and read deepest realisation pure devotee and follow for His pure disciples we do not has big trouble in self-realisation. Yes in ISKCON many different devotee, but you do not needs preach in ISKCON. Preach IN MATERIAL WORLD. SP not take any disciple from GM, He give nice example for you. May be you has negative experience in ISKCON, I am not has this experience, then no need write so big wrong article about ISKCON.

 

***Sincere devotees become discouraged, fall down and leave the association of devotees

 

Some yours disciples in Russia live in full tama guna. They stay in ISKCON may be 5 years, and then go in Vedanta Samiti, and they FALL in tama guna, they be nice in ISKCON more or less, then they take initiation in Vedanta Samiti. One disciple from Vedanta Samiti has 4 divorce in YOURS organisation. He is yours disciple. It is "total of the symptoms of exclusivism?" THEN DO OWN BUISNES, YOU HAS MANY OWN PROBLEM. In Russia yours organisations not has any big Russian site, or you has big site forum and so on? I am not listen. In Russia you not has any temple. Or you has temple? ALL yours disciples Russia it is steal disciples ISKCON. You not has OWN disciples. Peoples who go in maya from ISKCON, go first in some GM, and then fall in maya. Then give up yours professional aparadha and go preach.

 

***The sum total of the symptoms of exclusivism discussed above are that sincere souls who really want to realize Krsna consciousness feel that their efforts are in vain, that no one truly wants to help them, and no one will recognize them even if they are successful.

 

All people may read yours VNN, but they has OWN brain. Yours political cermon not effective. Then pls has OWN spiritual life and then somebody go for VS.

 

*** Srila Prabhupada often refers to Krsna consciousness as a science

 

They do not follow SP, then no needs any citation from SP. Understanding come from FOLLOWING. If they do not follow, they do not able understand.

 

***This knowledge constitutes a great science, and each and every living being has to hear it for his own interest. [bg. Preface]

 

Yes, from mouth pure devotee - Srila Prabhupada and His true followers. Not need some contecst citation.

 

***Lord Caitanya said that one who is master in the science of Krsna consciousness, regardless of his social position,

 

Yes, now in Russia first "russian" grihastha-guru.

 

***real happiness only if they consult Krsna, or the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatamwhich constitute the science of Krsnaor the bona fide representative of Krsna

 

It is right.

 

***There are many so-called spiritualists who outwardly pose to be advanced in the science, but inwardly or privately are completely under the particular modes of nature which they are unable to surpass. [bg. 3.33 P]

 

Oh yes. It is true.

 

***In his books, Srila Prabhupada portrays Krsna consciousness as a scientific process.

 

Yes it is not blind sraddha.

 

***3. Prediction: Anyone who properly follows the procedure for performing Krsna consciousness authorized by the acaryas should be able to attain bhakti-rasa within a reasonably short time.

 

Yes, we follow mood Lord Caitanya.

 

***4. Confirmation: Numerous individuals and groups have performed this process in the past and attained complete success.

 

Yes - Madhavendra Puri, Narottama dasa Thakur and so on.

 

***Repeating the original experiment

 

Yes, but need follow acarya.

 

***The same factors also tend to filter out any news of devotees achieving extraordinary attainments in Krsna consciousness.

 

Write all news in VNN. What - achieving extraordinary attainments in Krsna consciousness?

 

***Ultimately, they wrongly conclude that the process of Krsna consciousness itself is flawed; this is the tragic result of exclusivism.

 

Oh yes, if disciple not follow guru, spiritual life in danger.

 

***Given the present state of the Vaisnava community, it is hard to understand how anyone could attain complete realization of Krsna consciousness without the ability to use careful semantic analysis to separate the influence of politically-motivated exclusivist misinterpretations from the actual message of sastra.

 

In one form aparadha, another form aparadha.

 

***And the sectarian division,

 

Oh yes, need GBC gaudia matha.

 

***political agitation

 

Like this article.

 

***No conscientious person will want to encourage others to participate in such a group, especially when they may hold him accountable after having negative experiences with the group.

 

Oh yes, it "ISKCON so bad".

 

***Sannyasis from one political group or organization are not recognized in other groups.

 

Yes in GM.

 

***These material considerations go against the very spirit of sannyasa. Under the circumstances, no intelligent, discriminating devotee will desire to accept a position tantamount to becoming a political football.

 

Open football be most nice then speculation-aparadha.

 

***Preaching will not expand

 

Oh eee. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

 

man that is some funny stuff,every point that

bhaktisiddhartha makes Kailasa throws it right back

at em,made ME laugh.

 

While bhaktisiddhartha makes some very good points,

so does Kailasa,all in all the artcile in VNN

would have been better if it wasn't trying to

lump every person in a leadership role as some kind

of conniving miscreant,i mean cummon ?

 

sure,in every large religious sect there is going to

be an attraction for easily gained power for

self serving materialistic agendas, but like Kailasa

pointed out that is not his experience,Iskcon is a world wide thing,if you have some experience that doesn't mean

that everyone else has the same,if some people

you know seem materialistic or depraved,that doesn't

mean all of the people are,if there are some political

diatribes hidden in spiritual discussions that doens't

make it the norm, In fact I spent 5 years within

Iskcon,i maybe heard poltical or agenda driven

discourses a handfull of times,thats out of thousands,

and i was in California most of the time.

 

Bhkatisiddhartha ,while making good points,goes overboard

painting a bleeck asesssment of Iskcon that is only

true in certain instances,making it seem like the

entire society are morons,ignoramusus,charlatans,

and exploiters, In fact he tells us nothing new

except that now instead of there being a workable problem

in some sectors of Iskcon,now we should see the "truth" the whole thing is

no better then spit.

 

I'm guessing with his references to easily gaining

Krsna consciousness within a very short time

he is refering to himself,Yet really all he does

is rant ,he gives no solution other then righteous

indignation and the desired impression that

he is the answer.

 

when he says'where are the pure devotees,or

why wont the different groups bow down to

all the sanyassis?'`i had to laugh,on one hand

he wants worship as sanyassa and on the other

he wonders where are all the pure devotees

and why aren't they being worshipped .

 

I wonder who he means.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

maybe you are right for bhaktisiddhanta, i don't know, but to found anything creative or constructive in the kailasa's offensive deliriums, it requires a fervid fantasy or a great purity and advancement

[Guest guest]

"Instead of accepting legitimate constructive criticism and improving their management skills to benefit the group members, they twist any questioning or criticism into an offense, and then seek to marginalize the offender."

 

[Guest guest]

he is kanista, you're kanista (=judging groups of people, not single people), what's the difference?

IskCon cannot be all bad, Vedanta Samhiti or else cannot be all bad, if you say "they are ALL bad" there's vaishnava aparadha for the 1, 4,100, 1000 who are sincere devotees.

If you defend iskcon from offences making new ones, what's the use? Prabhupada is pure, and mercyful, he can give "rascal" to anyone ... we can't

[Guest guest]

**IskCon cannot be all bad,

 

Yes.

 

***Vedanta Samhiti or else cannot be all bad,

 

Yes, but people VS not has own mood (?). IMHO they it total sheme - "rasika krisna lila - bad ISKCON". They live in account ISKCON.

 

***if you say "they are ALL bad" there's vaishnava aparadha

 

Yes, for all GBC, for all guru ISKCON, for all devotee ISKCON.

 

***Prabhupada is pure, and mercyful, he can give "rascal" to anyone ... we can't

 

Needs follow SP ( disciples SP ). SP not dead. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

"Yes, but people VS not has own mood (?). IMHO they it total sheme - "rasika krisna lila - bad ISKCON". They live in account ISKCON. "

ºººººtoo much "they".. you are a vaishnava, personalist, judge singles not groups, where's the difficulty?

 

"***if you say "they are ALL bad" there's vaishnava aparadha

Yes, for all GBC, for all guru ISKCON, for all devotee ISKCON."

ºººººyes, i understand, others can be offended, no aparadha.. 1980's stuff in my country

 

haribol

[Guest guest]

***too much "they".. you are a vaishnava, personalist, judge singles not groups, where's the difficulty?

 

Vedanta Samiti. His guru give aparadha ISKCON, his guru pretend for all ISKCON!! His disciples give aparadha publici. Jadurani dd in Russia publici offend gurus ISKCON. They poseses himself wery big person, but it is illusion. Some sanyas VS repeat aparadha do not understand this. All his disciples REPEAT one and too, one and too, they not has own brain.

 

In this illusion they NOT UNDERSTAND this, they complete merge in mood - "I am greatISKCON bad". THEY DO aparadha Srila Prabhupada.

 

They go for Narayana Svami - follow Narayana Svami. Narayana Svami it is not ISKCON. It is some GAUDIYA MATH.

 

Narayana svami do not preach pfilosophi Srila Prabhupada, Narayana Svami not follow mood Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

ok.. god bless you

[Kulapavana]

kailasa: when you criticize people for being unfair to your matha, make sure you do not make the same mistake you are criticizing them for.

 

As always, best thing is: MIND YOUR OWN MATHA'S BUSINES!

 

 

[Guest guest]

***when you criticize people for being unfair to your matha,

 

I am write facts.

 

***make sure you do not make the same mistake you are criticizing them for.

 

They do professional buisnes, I am sometime.

 

***As always, best thing is: MIND YOUR OWN MATHA'S BUSINES!

 

I am from ISKCON.

 

Hare Krisna.

[Guest guest]

I am from ISKCON.

•••so think of iskcon

[Guest guest]

I am from ISKCON.

•••so think of iskcon

 

It is organisation Lord Caitanya.