THEIST!

[mud]

I find myself really agreeing with a lot of your viewpoints. You seem very familiar to me. Does your name begin with an R? Do you live on the west coast? Anyway, nice to know you either way. I like to read your stuff.

 

I wanted to ask you some vegan/devotee stuff. I have read some of your posts on dairy (and other topics) and for many years I have contemplated becoming vegan. Actually I was vegan before I joined ISKCON and they told me why I shouldn't be... That worked until I started thinking for myself again! Over the years I have defeated all the classic devotee arguments against a vegan diet plus a few that I came up with myself. There is really only one doubt I have left and I was wondering what you think.

 

Does it really matter anyway? Philisophically there is this idea that one cannot live in this world without harming other living entities. The cycle of karma is so entangling... So, if one becomes vegan one is doing one's best for the cows and also personal health, environment, and arguably something devotional for the Protector of the cows, but the way this age and this world is made, one can never have "clean hands".

 

Before I joined the temple many years back I had many many "causes" that I supported and promoted. Devotees preached to me (which I believe to some degree which must be clarified) that the root of all problems must be remedied by a spiritual method and that boycotting certain products or other such types of protest are only minimally effective.

 

Although I've changed a lot over the years, this doubt remains somewhat. I'd like to hear what you think. I have a thought or two myself, but would like to hear yours.

[autumn]

mud:"Does it really matter anyway? Philisophically there is this idea that one cannot live in this world without harming other living entities."

 

Hey there Mr. Mud,

Just saw your thread and had a thought. It seems like the point about harming other beings is not really in the facts of whether or not we are actually successful in never harming living beings either knowingly or uknowingly. I think it is logical to say that we can't avoid it no matter how careful we are. But if we just say "it's a lost cause, why bother trying!", than it seems we incur the karma of laziness, or apathy. I'm a big believer in the idea of intentions, so it seems to me that the the best way to proceed in life is to try as hard as possible to not harm any living beings, but be detached from the fact that no matter how hard we try, some harm to some living beings is inevitable. I think we get an "A for effort". Work hard with compassion to be non-violent, and be deteched from the results of our actions...seems the best option. Otherwise there seems to be only a couple of other ways to go about it, which are unskillful; ie. total apathy, or a complete over sensitive paranoid extreme kind of life where you have to strain your water before you drink it, wear a mask over your face so you don't breath in microbes etc, never drive, and just sit and do nothing all day...

 

on that note, I am also considering this issue now in my life. I am considering at least not spending any money on food that I know comes from abused animals...I may even go vegan too. We'll see. For now though, I don't feel comfortable contibuting money to the industry of animal abuse...its a start at least...!

 

Peace, Autumn.

[yasodanandana]

imho.. a devotee who engages is harsh discussions against a vegan is very strange..

 

you can be vegan in your home without problem, but i think that you also have to avoid the offence of refusing prasadam made with milk if you are invited by friend devotees, mahaprasadam in the temple or from spiritual master, prasadam and maha in sacred places like vrindavana, mayapour, puri etc..

 

if a vegan associates prasadam with violence it is a great problem

 

in my opinion

[mud]

I agree with what you are saying. That's exactly what I had in mind. Just to add a bit, I think that once we become aware that our actions contribute to some sort of suffering, that is when we become responsible to try our best to avoid it. For example, when I become aware that the ground beef in the U.S. comes from something like 85% dairy cows, the facts start to wear on my conscience. It becomes difficult for me to take part in that. If I ignore that effect on my conscience I feel that THEN is when the "karma" really makes me responsible. Did I make sense?

 

In the same breath, as a once famous sankirtana leader used to tell me, "try your best and depend upon Krsna for the results". In your words, make the A for effort and be detached from the rest.

[yasodanandana]

your opinion is highly respectable, but i'd cry seeing you not taking a mahapradasam milk sweet in radha damodhara temple in vrindavan because you're vegan... or, why not, a pizza with cheese in the home or your devotee friends..

 

so do not cook milk at your house but take milk from other devotees... the vegetarian/vegan thing for me ends here, this is a standard that i would be not able to bear, even if i'd wish

 

"If I ignore that effect on my conscience I feel that THEN is when the "karma" really makes me responsible. Did I make sense?"

•••maybe not too much:) ... feelings come from the senses, not exactly a source of real consciousness, or surely not the only source.

 

To be vegan or not, or if veganism is a thing to be preached to other devotees and so on, being a very important subject, not a detail, in my opinion, is a typical thing to ask to the spiritual master

[Guest guest]

Ok, here's my input. Obviously the Vedic version glorifies milk. So if we know that milk or milk products have come from protected cows on our farms or from cows living in Vrindavan or Mayapur (that will unlikely be slaughtered for Burger King), then that dairy is ok. I certainly would take such dairy.

On the other hand, any other dairy I would avoid. Personally I'm not a vegan, but now that I'm reading this thread, I'm thinking about it. Of course I know it takes a big committment especially for myself who doesn't eat very healthy as it is. So anyway, I believe that to be a vegan is ideal. Someday I hope to convert to veganism.

Plus if you do some reading in OBL Kapoor's Saints of Vraja, there is mention of degrees of purity of prasad - not that all prasad is ok! Very interesting.

 

- Mr. Kneel 'n' Pray

[Guest guest]

"Plus if you do some reading in OBL Kapoor's Saints of Vraja, there is mention of degrees of purity of prasad - not that all prasad is ok!"

 

yes.. they're saints, they can make such distinctions, for us, at that stage of life all prasadam is pure

 

for you(and me)there's the risk to consider that some deities , gurus and sadhus are eating violence and not prasadam..... there's the possibility that one can chant harekrishna and eat meat, he will give up soon, but if he make vaishnava aparadha the chanting stops immediately

 

so, please, consider it and ask to your spiritual master

 

yasoda-nandana-dasa

[mud]

Thanks for your opinion yashoda-nandana. You don't need to worry about my prasadam taking, I'll do just fine I'm sure.

 

you said: yes.. they're saints, they can make such distinctions, for us, at that stage of life all prasadam is pure

 

mud: Hey, maybe you are talking to a saint!!!

 

Just to clarify, milk from protected cows I don't have a problem with. I will drink, eat, with pleasure. Dairy from unprotected cows (the only dairy available to me) tests my conscience. Besides all the cruelty, add the fact that I worship the Protector of the cows and that inspires me to pull the udders of soybeans.

 

Where oh where is a theist when you need one? That prabhuji/jini has a good head.

[Priitaa]

 

imho.. a devotee who engages is harsh discussions against a vegan is very strange..

 

 

Interesting. I don't do that, yet I've had many vegans yell at me for being lacto-vegetarian. They have said some pretty fanatical and violent things.

 

I personally feel that while food issues are important in the sense that we should not eat flesh (and cuz tht's how Prabupada instructed us), after this, peace must come from within.

[stonehearted]

Pritha: In reply to:

imho.. a devotee who engages is harsh discussions against a vegan is very strange..

 

 

Interesting. I don't do that, yet I've had many vegans yell at me for being lacto-vegetarian. They have said some pretty fanatical and violent things.

 

I have seen devotees whose anit-vegan fanatacism trumps anything I've seen from vegan fanatics. I've heard them call vegans disguised cow killers, and vegan devotees mayavadis. It does get weird.

[autumn]

I've been thinking about this vegan thing. I definately see the point of not harming or killing animals and think this is a good ideal to follow, but I don't see the point in becoming fully vegan and not eating any dairy products ever... To me its seems logical to not buy dairy products from companies that abuse, torture, and kill thier animals because than you are not supporting them in a financial way, but I don't see the point in avoiding the dairy products from animals that are well treated and not abused...

 

I guess some people consider dairy products unhealthy all together, but that is a whole different topic...

 

My question then is: Why go vegan totally? Why not just avoid milk products from abused animals and companies that abuse animals?

[mud]

My question then is: Why go vegan totally? Why not just avoid milk products from abused animals and companies that abuse animals?

 

Well, theist has some darn good arguments I'm sure.

 

I have thought this same thing. However, what companies don't participate in the abuse? One might propose organic companies, which I have done in the mean time, while I'm considering the vegan issue. Organic companies advertise that they don't use growth hormones, treat the cows nicely, etc. but they still send them off to slaughter.

 

Besided this, I have some doubt that the whole process of pasturization and homogenization does anything to milk but make it indigestible and ultimately harmful to human health.

 

This is a good question, about where "organic" companies fit on the scale of ethical treatment of dairy cows. I'd like some more input.

 

For some sick, but funny entertainment, check this out. http://www.bancruelfarms.org/meatrix/

[yasodanandana]

sorry for my dullness.. but i'd like to know what a vegan devote does at the prasadam hour at a sunday feast, in a home of another devotee, when he's offered some mahaprasadam at the temple or so...

[theist]

 

find myself really agreeing with a lot of your viewpoints. You seem very familiar to me. Does your name begin with an R? Do you live on the west coast? Anyway, nice to know you either way.

 

 

Haribol mud. It is always nice to meet devotees and especially nice that you are interested in this issue. I am on the west coast but not R.

 

 

I wanted to ask you some vegan/devotee stuff. I have read some of your posts on dairy (and other topics) and for many years I have contemplated becoming vegan. Actually I was vegan before I joined ISKCON and they told me why I shouldn't be... That worked until I started thinking for myself again! Over the years I have defeated all the classic devotee arguments against a vegan diet plus a few that I came up with myself. There is really only one doubt I have left and I was wondering what you think.

 

 

Yeah I know the pressure some of them feel they must bring to bear. I adopted a vegan instead of vegetarian lifestyle initially because I can't digest dairy. Devotees would often tell me I must have been a big demon in my previous life to not be able to digest milk. I can't deny the demon status so I don't argue with them on that. Recently while in Vrndaban I was called a traitor for being a vegan. lol Again I didn't argue but did make a comment as to that being the wrong reason to view me as such.

 

I like the fact that you choose to think for yourself on these issues.

 

 

Does it really matter anyway? Philisophically there is this idea that one cannot live in this world without harming other living entities. The cycle of karma is so entangling... So, if one becomes vegan one is doing one's best for the cows and also personal health, environment, and arguably something devotional for the Protector of the cows, but the way this age and this world is made, one can never have "clean hands".

 

 

It's true on can never have clean hands. Even the most conscious person will crush bugs on his way to harvest the tree ripened fruit that has fallen from the tree. So one should not be proud to live as a vegetarian or vegan. We can't approach the Lord as ones who have perfected themselves enough to gain entrance into His presence.

 

But that argument is a really poor one in my estimation. Couldn't a meat eater say the same? We must use our God given intelligence in the matter.

 

We preach cow protection on one hand and then support the cow slaughter industry directly on the other by using dairy. As you know these are not protected cows. I see no way to justify this.

 

 

Before I joined the temple many years back I had many many "causes" that I supported and promoted. Devotees preached to me (which I believe to some degree which must be clarified) that the root of all problems must be remedied by a spiritual method and that boycotting certain products or other such types of protest are only minimally effective.

 

 

They are correct we must address the root problems. But that doesn't mean that we must give up all causes. Take animal rights. We can be active on this front and bring out Krsna conscious precepts at the same time.

 

We can show that animals are conscious beings and that consciousness comes from the soul. In doing this we argue that the source of consciousness is not due to the body or brain but rather due to the presence of a spirtself within the body. We are not the body and neither are the animals. "The humble sage sees with equal vision..."

 

So from making this argument a door is opened to reincarnation and karma. From there we can explain that the present animals in slaughterhouses are there because they slaughtered animals themselves when in human form. This is expanded compassion in that we are trying to prevent to present animal killers a similar fate. Devotees care for the killers as well as the killed.

 

Similar arguments are there for the Pro-life cause. They can't pinpoint when life begins and that weakens their argument. We can show that life doesn't begin really but the self enters at conception and this presence of the lifeforce is what is at the foundation of the formation of the fetus and the life symptoms that it exhibits.

 

So we add to these good movements and at the same raise them up a teach basic Krsna conscious principles at the same time. And often to an audience that wouldn't orinarily want to hear from us.

 

I am finding that for me a slow gradual planting seeds approach works best. I have a tendancy to be rather blunt and abrupt which usually puts people into a defensive mode right off.

 

You could do similar in your own fashion with enviromental issues or others.

 

One important thing is to find your own voice in the issues that most concern you. Then separate our own minds misconceptions on those issues in favor of Krsna conscious ones. This is very important so we don't make mistakes in the name of Krsna consciousness.

 

The main motive must remain to explain the spiritual science and these other causes are secondary.

 

Most people are not interested in what the Vedic civilization of 5,000 years ago did or did not do. We have to be a bit creative and enter into the topics that are prevelant now with some eternal solutions.

 

Haribol soul

 

[theist]

 

sorry for my dullness.. but i'd like to know what a vegan devote does at the prasadam hour at a sunday feast, in a home of another devotee, when he's offered some mahaprasadam at the temple or so...

 

 

 

Well I'll eat the maha without hestitation. Many times I have been in this position. But I'll only take a small amount. Sunday feast I avoid the milk preps.

 

This should not become a divisive issue during one's visit to the temple. Gaura Nitai, Radha Krsna worship is what a temple is about. Not creating factions.

 

I will even take a very small amount of some subji that has been cooked in ghee, or as the practice is now drowning in ghee. Very rarely though as there is usually something else. I avoid statements like "No thanks, I'm vegan, I don't eat anything that has to do with cow slaughter" etc.

 

I wonder what non-vegan devotees do when offered something they just don't like. Do they eat a plate full or maybe just a taste to honor the prasad? Or pass altogether?

 

If I was a householder who ate dairy and had a guest coming by who knew was vegan I would prepare some vegan preps in addition so as not to place them in an awkward position.

 

I would also do the same at the Sunday feast. Veganism is a growing trend. As Prabhupada told Aniruddha, (who was LA tem-ples original cook) that two patties of butter a day is sufficent for brahmacaris. I remember a devotee who used to eat straight butter a quarter pound at a time because he thought it would increase his intelligence. He carried it with him on sankirtan. I think people generally over emphasize their so-called need for milk products.

 

Now I also recollect an incident at Ratha-yatra. One guru was giving a talk at a booth and a vegan girl walked by and challenged him on the merits and demerits of dairy consumption. She won on points I thought, hands down. The guru could only say "well the cows are receiving benefit by our offering the milk." She was also very rude and angry and called hin fat because of all the butter he was eatting.But she was correct on the cruelty points nontheless.

 

But the so-called justification that cow slaughter (which is what dairy consumption is) was justified in our culture because we chant some mantras has always struck me as rather weak.

 

Remember I am speaking of unprotected cows here, which is 99.99%(if not more) of the cows in the West.

 

[yasodanandana]

i accept your point of view and i appreciate your way of behaving in the temple..

 

the thing that make me more doubtful is that not eating sandesh because i have digestion's problem is different from not eating sandesh because i think that deities, prabhupada, gurudeva, devotees are offered violent or inappropriate food....

 

if there was a phenomenon of one temple ("i do not eat there because they are unclean" etc) i'd follow the concept.. but every branch of gaudya sampradaya all over the world uses milk...

 

and prabhupada used milk everywhere

 

so.. for me..it could be very risky for our spiritual consciousness, maybe more risky than eating meat.

 

definitely a thing to ask to the spiritual master...

[theist]

yashodanandana,

 

Here's the thing. Even though I first became vegan for health reasons I later learned of the ethical considerations we are really superior in my opinion.

 

Again I am only speaking of the west. I don't know what goes on in India. But here milk is without question a product of great violence to cows. That can't be denied.

 

I know devotees like to preach on cow protection but that arguement coming from someone who is drinking milk which is intimately connected with cow slaughter has little meaning.

 

I know devotees have their hearts in the right place but individually I can only ask the people really consider this point.

 

If you drink milk from cows that are protected this doesn't apply to you but then you are the very rare person indeed.

 

This isn't the happy land of Vrndaban where the little calves run and play with Krsna the cowherd boy.

[Guest guest]

i have already said that you say logic and rational things... but the problem of considering that the vaishnavas (including prabhupada) are wrong offering and accepting milk remains...

 

as i have said i consider vaishnava aparadha worst than eating meat..

 

but i do not challenge or criticize, i am only curious how a vegan devotee can concile all these aspect .. or if there's nothing to concile and i am a speculator:)

[theist]

Prabhupada also wanted devotee farms where cows would be protected and the milk from those protected cows would supply the temples.

 

If someone can offer commercial milk to krsna after all these years while knowing how the cows and calves are treated then what can I say.

 

Just I won't waste time listening to their preachments on cow protection.

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

mmh..

[Priitaa]

 

I have seen devotees whose anit-vegan fanatacism trumps anything I've seen from vegan fanatics. I've heard them call vegans disguised cow killers, and vegan devotees mayavadis. It does get weird.

 

 

Babru,

 

Thats awful! I'm usually just happy anyone at all is a vegetarian. ha What to speak of prasadametarian. :-)

 

I never had such experiences as you mention above, tho I am the lacto one. Of the few devotees I know who are vegans, the topic hardly comes up at all. And when it does, we both resepect each others choices. Tho it may also be cuz I lean toward reducing dairy, especially with age. Or I advocate (plain) yogurt, which contains digestive enzymes. I dont know why I never had that problem. All I know is it's awful for a devotee to respond that way. In which case, they have not found peace within either.

 

My experiences were different, and in a vegetarian chat room years ago when I use to have access. The person who ran it was good, as any type of veggie was made welcome. But when the vegans would come in, nearly every single time, they would start in on the horrors of milk and anyone who drank it. And MORE than the horrors of meat. Some insulted me and found it easy to do so, told me I was contributing to the slaughterhouse business, etc. In another words, there was no mutual respect and it was all their way or the highway.

 

One day when I got sick of it, and they were talking about violence vs peace, I told this story I actually read years ago. And this is getting long, so to sum it up, it was by a woman who spent much of her time dedicated to creating world peace by traveling around the world doing this or that. She was always irritated that the people, even after hearing, continued to contaminate the environment, promote war, and so on. One day she realized she was ALWAYS mad. She said while she was running around preaching peace, she did not have it within. Then she stopped all the traveling and preaching, and started working on herself. Her point was, and I feel this is a good one, that we can't have world peace if we dont have inner peace ourselves.

 

So I am thinking how we can do all these 'things,' but if we don't change our consciousness, those 'things' won't change it for us.

 

Hope this wasn't too wordy. It was something I've wanted to tell in the past.

[mud]

dairy replacement:

Milk - Vitasoy soymilk (yum!)

Butter - Non hydrogenated oil margarine or something like.

Cheese - ? Not much experience here, any recommendation?

Yoghurt - Is there a vegan alternative? This is my personal

favorite dairy.

Eggs - That's covered.

Cream - ?

 

 

On a previous thread Priita was mentioning something about soy being bad for you. I can't remember what exactly she was saying, but there was no reply. Maybe she can re-post that idea here and see what the folks come up with.

[autumn]

dairy replacement:

Milk - Vitasoy soymilk (yum!)

 

soy milk is yummy, theres all kinds of "milk" out now, rice milk, almond milk, all kinds...

 

Butter - Non hydrogenated oil margarine or something like.

 

do they make non-hydrogenated? I've never seen it, but if they do I'm gettin some!

 

Cheese - ? Not much experience here, any recommendation?

 

I find most soy or non-dairy cheese to be quite nasty to tell you the truth. And you know, alot of it still has some small amount of dairy in it...

 

Yoghurt - Is there a vegan alternative? This is my personal

favorite dairy.

 

I think non-dairy yoghurt is a non-food...never heard of a good alternative for that one.

 

Cream - ?

 

well if you mean ice cream, theres some pretty tasty non-dairy versions out there. But regular cream? nope!

 

 

 

[Priitaa]

 

On a previous thread Priita was mentioning something about soy being bad for you. I can't remember what exactly she was saying, but there was no reply. Maybe she can re-post that idea here and see what the folks come up with.

 

 

Mud,

 

Haribol. I didn't realize anyone replied to me over there, cuz it was on the Health Forum and I checked a couple of times with no replies. Then, got tired. :-)

 

Anyway, this is correct. Soy is not the health food we all thought it was. I know many will not be happy with this news and I was not either.

 

To get the details, one link (and there are many on this topic!) is http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz

 

I just feel if we are avoiding dairy for health purposes, better make sure those things we use as substitutes are really healthy. I admit, I miss my tofu. :-)

[Sarva gattah]

Theist, when are you coming out on this thread to play again, it's a little boring with out you 'divine' presents