Guest guest Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 Brahmakumaris are no a confused lot and although many people may not agree with their philosophy of Nirgun Shiva; it is naive of you people to dismiss it as atheistic in approach. I used to assume that you ISKON people were very tolerant and open-minded. But I have now realized that most of you are like 'frog in the well.' You people seem to have a problem with anyone who does not agree with your ideologies and theories. Really absurd... Well I personally have nothing to do with "ISKON" (sic), but I agree that Brahma Kumari philosophy is inconsistent, self-contradictory, and unsupported by Vedic evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 jndas, I shall confess I was a trifle cross with you since you had the audacity to tell me that 'why don't you start a new religion.' But looking back I feel, I should not have taken it seriously. You have each and every right to believe what is correct and good for you and the same applies to me. But do not make generalizations about me saying my philosophy is good only on paper and not otherwise. I have not disagreed with you anywhere but instead I was discussing with yasodanadana that there are different ways of looking at the same picture. Seems to me, I hit a soft spot with you in the course of doing that. And last but not the least, it is you who has to reaffirm whether you truly are a genuine believer of tolerance and acceptance as advocated by our great religion or you just want others to chant hare Krishna irrespective of what they believe or think. If you want people to understand more about Krishna and ISCKON, you may want to consider giving up your false ego and actually enlighten people. There are many Hindus who actually relish eating animal meat and I have met quite a few Brahmins who have no qualms about eating meat. Pray tell me how do you react to them, when you have so openly announced that I am not as 'open-minded' as I make out to be. We can disagree on 'n' number of things but let us not say that 'I am right and you are wrong.' Follow the path which is most convenient, suitable and acceptable to you. May all beings be happy!! May all beings be peaceful!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 Yas, you are a very humble person with a broad outlook. I appreciate and admire these qualities in any person. Where in Italy are you from? I would love to visit your country some day. From what I have seen on TV and read in magazines, it seems to be the kind of place I would fall in love with. I agree that all paths may not be same but I strongly believe that the final destination is same. I find it really strange to think that a person who worships only a particular God will reach a better place than another who worships another God. Tell me yas, was it in our hands when we took birth in our families? Was it in our hands to decide if we would be brought up under Hindu, Muslim, Christian upbringing? NO...it was not. God will never differentiate with us. It is us human beings who commit that error of thinking one is better than the another. I feel, it does not matter whom you worship or believe in; it is how much you believe and trust that makes the difference. Of course you don't have to agree with me. But since we have started this little web ring of brotherhood /images/graemlins/wink.gif (I can never be a brother hehehehe) I shared my ideas with you. I think your English is pretty good. You are trying to be modest I guess. Hope to hear from you too. May all beings be happy!! May all beings be peaceful!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 "Yas, you are a very humble person with a broad outlook." •••i am not so good and humble, maybe i had more luck to find a way to relationate with you, but... thanks " Where in Italy are you from?" •••florence "I agree that all paths may not be same but I strongly believe that the final destination is same" •••ultimately yes... but as i said, there's paths going straight to the goal and paths who stop somewhere in between waiting for choosing another path.. or there's medicine more and less effective. with no or much side effects. Religion is like the everyday reality, it is a science and an experience, not only a faith.. so the earth is a sphere, you can reach florence going on any direction.. but in practical terms, choosing a straght one or the opposite is not exactly the same "I find it really strange to think that a person who worships only a particular God will reach a better place than another who worships another God" ••••ehem.. god is not particular.. i have already explained that god's form is not human, it is divine.. and divine means limitless and infinite. And God is One, allah, buddah, krsna, javeh are the same person from different point of views. The things that make religions different is the quality and intimity of "rasa" (relationship) with god So, if, as religion practitioneers and seekers, we consider the god consciousness the most desiderable thing.. we like to know the more intimate aspects of him... and the "krsna's" aspect it the more intimate and full of details. This is actually a broadening of vision, inside krsna there's all the aspects.. impersonal, energetic, authority, fear for god but also love and friendship... and one, knowing krsna, gets a more deep understanding of his prevoius religious positions and preferences.. so i am sorry that for centuries the concept of "one god" was used to make war against others who believe in "another god".. but we cannot change the reality because there's some fanatics who use god for their gratification "Was it in our hands to decide if we would be brought up under Hindu, Muslim, Christian upbringing? " •••yes, it is in our hands.. i was born as christian.. i am now more christian because krsna consciousness have given to me a more broad vision and a sistematic approach to spirituality, without labels, parties, factions, sects. I never understanded jesus as i understand him now.. "It is us human beings who commit that error of thinking one is better than the another" •••the problem are not the difference of opinion.. the problem is how to deal with them.. i am from the west, i cannot teach to you the tolerance for other's opinion that india is famous for!!! and tolerance means tolerance, not flattening everything to annihilate the differences " it is how much you believe and trust that makes the difference." •••this is against the logic... if i want to go in india i have to be convinced to go, but also i have to take the right plane... the accuracy to find a good school, a good master, a good path is an important component of the sincerity. If one chooses randomly, he's not sincere, he's simply not serious "Hope to hear from you too." ••••i am here, reading and discussing these spiritual subjects in my free hours... stay with us and share your realizations!!! (i hope you will consider also the scriptural and doctrinal evidences given by other partecipants... religion is a science, not only a belief:)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 why do you not reply to the gita verses above ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchakjani Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 reaswaran : When krishna says only those who worship him will achieve salvation, it is the supreme being (yes the formless impersonal which you get so worked up about) and not Krishna the human manifestation. I thought this would be obvious even to a lay reader of the Geeta Reaswaran, that is what you think, but lets see what Sri Krishna Himself, explains in the gita:- Chapter 7 verse 24 TEXT 24 avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah param bhavam ajananto mamavyayam anuttamam WORD FOR WORD avyaktam -- nonmanifested; vyaktim -- personality; apannam -- achieved; manyante -- think; mam -- Me; abuddhayah -- less intelligent persons; param -- supreme; bhavam -- existence; ajanantah -- without knowing; mama -- My; avyayam -- imperishable; anuttamam -- the finest. TRANSLATION Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme. PURPORT Those who are worshipers of demigods have been described as less intelligent persons, and here the impersonalists are similarly described. Lord Krishna in His personal form is here speaking before Arjuna, and still, due to ignorance, impersonalists argue that the Supreme Lord ultimately has no form. Yamunacarya, a great devotee of the Lord in the disciplic succession of Ramanujacarya, has written two very appropriate verses in this connection. He says, tvam sila-rupa-caritaih parama-prakrstaih sattvena sattvikataya prabalais ca sastraih prakhyata-daiva-paramartha-vidam matais ca naivasura-prakrtayah prabhavanti boddhum "My dear Lord, devotees like Vyasadeva and Narada know You to be the Personality of Godhead. By understanding different Vedic literatures, one can come to know Your characteristics, Your form and Your activities, and one can thus understand that You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are in the modes of passion and ignorance, the demons, the nondevotees, cannot understand You. They are unable to understand You. However expert such nondevotees may be in discussing Vedanta and the Upanisads and other Vedic literatures, it is not possible for them to understand the Personality of Godhead." (Stotra-ratna 12) In the Brahma-samhita it is stated that the Personality of Godhead cannot be understood simply by study of the Vedanta literature. Only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord can the Personality of the Supreme be known. Therefore in this verse it is clearly stated that not only are the worshipers of the demigods less intelligent, but those nondevotees who are engaged in Vedanta and speculation on Vedic literature without any tinge of true Krishna consciousness are also less intelligent, and for them it is not possible to understand God's personal nature. Persons who are under the impression that the Absolute Truth is impersonal are described as abuddhayah, which means those who do not know the ultimate feature of the Absolute Truth. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that supreme realization begins from the impersonal Brahman and then rises to the localized Supersoul -- but the ultimate word in the Absolute Truth is the Personality of Godhead. Modern impersonalists are still less intelligent, for they do not even follow their great predecessor Sankaracarya, who has specifically stated that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Impersonalists, therefore, not knowing the Supreme Truth, think Krishna to be only the son of Devaki and Vasudeva, or a prince, or a powerful living entity. This is also condemned in the Bhagavad-gita (9.11). Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam: "Only the fools regard Me as an ordinary person." The fact is that no one can understand Krishna without rendering devotional service and without developing Krishna consciousness. he Bhagavatam (10.14.29) confirms this: athapi te deva padambuja-dvaya- prasada-lesanugrhita eva hi janati tattvam bhagavan mahimno na canya eko 'pi ciram vicinvan "My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue to study the Vedas for many years." One cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, or His form, quality or name simply by mental speculation or by discussing Vedic literature. One must understand Him by devotional service. When one is fully engaged in Krishna consciousness, beginning by chanting the maha-mantra -- Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare -- then only can one understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nondevotee impersonalists think that Krishna has a body made of this material nature and that all His activities, His form and everything are maya. These impersonalists are known as Mayavadis. They do not know the ultimate truth. The twentieth verse clearly states, kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah prapadyante 'nya-devatah. "Those who are blinded by lusty desires surrender unto the different demigods." It is accepted that besides the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there are demigods who have their different planets, and the Lord also has a planet. As stated in the twenty-third verse, devan deva-yajo yanti mad-bhakta yanti mam api: the worshipers of the demigods go to the different planets of the demigods, and those who are devotees of Lord Krishna go to the Krishnaloka planet. Although this is clearly stated, the foolish impersonalists still maintain that the Lord is formless and that these forms are impositions. From the study of the Gita does it appear that the demigods and their abodes are impersonal? Clearly, neither the demigods nor Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, are impersonal. They are all persons; Lord Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He has His own planet, and the demigods have theirs. Therefore the monistic contention that ultimate truth is formless and that form is imposed does not hold true. It is clearly stated here that it is not imposed. From the Bhagavad-gita we can clearly understand that the forms of the demigods and the form of the Supreme Lord are simultaneously existing and that Lord Krishna is sac-cid-ananda, eternal blissful knowledge. The Vedas also confirm that the Supreme Absolute Truth is ananda-mayo 'bhyasat, or by nature full of blissful pleasure, and that He is the reservoir of unlimited auspicious qualities. And in the Gita the Lord says that although He is aja (unborn), He still appears. These are the facts that we should understand from the Bhagavad-gita. We cannot understand how the Supreme Personality of Godhead can be impersonal; the imposition theory of the impersonalist monist is false as far as the statements of the Gita are concerned. It is clear herein that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Lord Krishna, has both form and personality. ------------------------ In Fact in the very next verse Sri Krishna calls such people as foolish and unintelligent.(mudho) ------------------------ TEXT 25 naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam WORD FOR WORD na -- nor; aham -- I; prakasah -- manifest; sarvasya -- to everyone; yoga-maya -- by internal potency; samavrtah -- covered; mudhah -- foolish; ayam -- these; na -- not; abhijanati -- can understand; lokah -- persons; mam -- Me; ajam -- unborn; avyayam -- inexhaustible. TRANSLATION I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible. PURPORT It may be argued that since Krishna was present on this earth and was visible to everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually He was not manifest to everyone. When Krishna was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the assembly of Kurus, when Sisupala spoke against Krishna's being elected president of the assembly, Bhisma supported Him and proclaimed Him to be the Supreme God. Similarly, the Pandavas and a few others knew that He was the Supreme, but not everyone. He was not revealed to the nondevotees and the common man. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita Krishna says that but for His pure devotees, all men consider Him to be like themselves. He was manifest only to His devotees as the reservoir of all pleasure. But to others, to unintelligent nondevotees, He was covered by His internal potency. In the prayers of Kunti in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.8.19) it is said that the Lord is covered by the curtain of yoga-maya and thus ordinary people cannot understand Him. This yoga-maya curtain is also confirmed in the Isopanisad (mantra 15), in which the devotee prays: hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham tat tvam pusann apavrnu satya-dharmaya drstaye "O my Lord, You are the maintainer of the entire universe, and devotional service to You is the highest religious principle. Therefore, I pray that You will also maintain me. Your transcendental form is covered by the yoga-maya. The brahmajyoti is the covering of the internal potency. May You kindly remove this glowing effulgence that impedes my seeing Your sac-cid-ananda-vigraha, Your eternal form of bliss and knowledge." The Supreme Personality of Godhead in His transcendental form of bliss and knowledge is covered by the internal potency of the brahmajyoti, and the less intelligent impersonalists cannot see the Supreme on this account. Also in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.7) there is this prayer by Brahma: "O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O Supersoul, O master of all mystery, who can calculate Your potency and pastimes in this world? You are always expanding Your internal potency, and therefore no one can understand You. Learned scientists and learned scholars can examine the atomic constitution of the material world or even the planets, but still they are unable to calculate Your energy and potency, although You are present before them." The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, is not only unborn but also avyaya, inexhaustible. His eternal form is bliss and knowledge, and His energies are all inexhaustible. ------------------------ In Fact in i do consider myself just a lay reader of the gita that you have descibed, and i have no illusions about Krishna's ultimate form being impersonal or anything like that. I can see clearly that He is The Eternal Spiritual Supreme Personality of Gohead Even in the chaper 6 46(last verse) , Sri Krishna, explains that the best yogi is one who is devoted/worships Him. (see "sraddhavan bhajate yo mam") ------------------------ TEXT 47 yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantar-atmana sraddhavan bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo matah WORD FOR WORD yoginam -- of yogis; api -- also; sarvesam -- all types of; mat-gatena -- abiding in Me, always thinking of Me; antah-atmana -- within himself; sraddha-van -- in full faith; bhajate -- renders transcendental loving service; yah -- one who; mam -- to Me (the Supreme Lord); sah -- he; me -- by Me; yukta-tamah -- the greatest yogi; matah -- is considered. TRANSLATION And of all yogis, the one with great faith who always abides in Me, thinks of Me within himself, and renders transcendental loving service to Me -- he is the most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. That is My opinion. PURPORT The word bhajate is significant here. Bhajate has its root in the verb bhaj, which is used when there is need of service. The English word "worship" cannot be used in the same sense as bhaj. Worship means to adore, or to show respect and honor to the worthy one. But service with love and faith is especially meant for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One can avoid worshiping a respectable man or a demigod and may be called discourteous, but one cannot avoid serving the Supreme Lord without being thoroughly condemned. Every living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and thus every living entity is intended to serve the Supreme Lord by his own constitution. Failing to do this, he falls down. The Bhagavatam (11.5.3) confirms this as follows: ya esam purusam saksad atma-prabhavam isvaram na bhajanty avajananti sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah "Anyone who does not render service and neglects his duty unto the primeval Lord, who is the source of all living entities, will certainly fall down from his constitutional position." In this verse also the word bhajanti is used. Therefore, bhajanti is applicable to the Supreme Lord only, whereas the word "worship" can be applied to demigods or to any other common living entity. The word avajananti, used in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, is also found in the Bhagavad-gita. Avajananti mam mudhah: "Only the fools and rascals deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna." Such fools take it upon themselves to write commentaries on the Bhagavad-gita without an attitude of service to the Lord. Consequently they cannot properly distinguish between the word bhajanti and the word "worship." The culmination of all kinds of yoga practices lies in bhakti yoga. All other yogas are but means to come to the point of bhakti in bhakti-yoga. Yoga actually means bhakti-yoga; all other yogas are progressions toward the destination of bhakti-yoga. From the beginning of karma-yoga to the end of bhakti-yoga is a long way to self-realization. Karma-yoga, without fruitive results, is the beginning of this path. When karma-yoga increases in knowledge and renunciation, the stage is called jnana-yoga. When jnana-yoga increases in meditation on the Supersoul by different physical processes, and the mind is on Him, it is called astanga-yoga. And when one surpasses the astanga-yoga and comes to the point of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krishna, it is called bhakti yoga, the culmination. Factually, bhakti-yoga is the ultimate goal, but to analyze bhakti-yoga minutely one has to understand these other yogas. The yogi who is progressive is therefore on the true path of eternal good fortune. One who sticks to a particular point and does not make further progress is called by that particular name: karma-yogi, jnana-yogi or dhyana-yogi, raja-yogi, hatha-yogi, etc. If one is fortunate enough to come to the point of bhakti-yoga, it is to be understood that he has surpassed all other yogas. Therefore, to become Krishna conscious is the highest stage of yoga, just as, when we speak of Himalayan, we refer to the world's highest mountains, of which the highest peak, Mount Everest, is considered to be the culmination. It is by great fortune that one comes to Krishna consciousness on the path of bhakti-yoga to become well situated according to the Vedic direction. The ideal yogi concentrates his attention on Krishna, who is called Syamasundara, who is as beautifully colored as a cloud, whose lotuslike face is as effulgent as the sun, whose dress is brilliant with jewels and whose body is flower-garlanded. Illuminating all sides is His gorgeous luster, which is called the brahmajyoti. He incarnates in different forms such as Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha and Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He descends like a human being, as the son of mother Yasoda, and He is known as Krishna, Govinda and Vasudeva. He is the perfect child, husband, friend and master, and He is full with all opulences and transcendental qualities. If one remains fully conscious of these features of the Lord, he is called the highest yogi. This stage of highest perfection in yoga can be attained only by bhakti-yoga, as is confirmed in all Vedic literature: yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante mahatmanah "Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23) Bhaktir asya bhajanam tad ihamutropadhi-nairasyenamusmin manah-kalpanam, etad eva naiskarmyam. "Bhakti means devotional service to the Lord which is free from desire for material profit, either in this life or in the next. Devoid of such inclinations, one should fully absorb the mind in the Supreme. That is the purpose of naiskarmya." (Gopala-tapani Upanisad 1.15) These are some of the means for performance of bhakti, or Krishna consciousness, the highest perfectional stage of the yoga system. -- Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Purports to the Sixth Chapter of the Srimad Bhagavad-gita in the matter of Dhyana-yoga. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Please read this postcarefully and Then i think the onus is on you to reply from, the Bhagavad Gita, as to where did you find, in the Gita , Krishna has no personality and that he is only a human really ? I would also ask you to read the great works, of Sripad Sridhara Swami, Mhadvacharya(Udipi Krishna), Ramanujacarchya (Sri Rangam, Tirupati Balagi), Vishnu swami, Nimbarkacharya,Vallabhacharya(Sri Nathji),Jiva goswami(Vrindavan), etc... They are all Great Archaya of the past and all of them have impeecable credentials as great spiritual preceptors and guides. All of them agree that Sri Krishna is eternally a spritual personality. Read the Srimad Bhagavatam and you will know, or else read from the Padma purana. Be carefull of the thought and not Krishna the human manifestation. , WHY ?? because this thought,of minimizing Krihsna(Vishnu),belongs not to you but to great demons of the past like ravan, hiranyaksha, hiranyakasphipu. I am sure if you read the gita(purported by ISKCON or by any of the above acharyas) you will understand that indeed Sri Krishna is The Eternal Spiritual Supreme Personality of Gohead. In fact i think, the best understanding you can get is from " The Sat Sandarbha", a great philosphical work by Sri Jiva Goswami(500 years old). Here are some links you can look at to see what i mean:- http://www.iskcon.org/sastra/f_bg.html Even the introduction here is enough to help you so much. http://www.iskcon.com/about/parampara/baladeva_vidyabhusana.html http://www.udupipages.com/temple/madva.html http://www.freeindia.org/biographies/sages/ramanujacharya/ http://members.tripod.com/~sriramanujar/ http://www.freeindia.org/biographies/sages/ramanujacharya/ Regards Suchak Jani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 The problem here is that you are going by one commentator only- hence the refusal to see that there are several others who interpret it differently. Let us remove commentators and apply ourselves to the transalation- one only needs a Sanskrit dictionary for the purpose:- BG 7.24 Avvayktam - the Unmanifest; Vaykitam - to manifest; apannam- having come to- ;manyante -think; mam -me; abuddhyah-foolish; param- supreme; bhavam-nature; ajananto- not knowing; mum-me; avyayam-immutable; anutammam- unsurpassed. Which when strung into a sentence becomes:_ The foolish think of me the Unmanifest, as having manifestation, not knowing my supreme nature, immutable , unsurpassed- which has a totally different meaning from that given to it by Prabhupada. And mind you this is only the pure transalation. Not that I am saying that the interpretation given by Prabupada is erroneous- only that it is not the only one and not acceptable to many people among whom I also fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 The Gita is part of the Mahabharat; Please go through the story wherein it is clearly explained how the Supreme(in this case Vishnu) took birth in human form for delivering the earth from evil. Vishnu incidentally is the name given to one of the facets of the supreme Lord and nust not be thought of as the guy reclining on the Cobra. The Supreme three facets are Brahma, Vishnu, Maheshwara (shiva ) otherwise called the creator, sustainer and destroyer. In any case, I am not trying to prove a point here. Those of us who pursue the path of Advaita , find it much easier to believe in a formless reality in which all merge. There are others who would like to believe in a Lord with form -no quarrel -partner. If that is the path you have chosen , more power to you. But kindly stop trying to state that yours is the only true path. That certainly is not true and such talk reduces the proponent to the level of the English Crusaders or the fanatical Muslim who propogates the Only Allah theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchakjani Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 The problem here is that you are going by one commentator only- hence the refusal to see that there are several others who interpret it differently. Ok, just to clarify here, i have met and seen many people form the mhadva, ramnanuja, vallabhacharya, sampradaya who agree with Srila Prabhupada's translation. And i repeat all of them agree that Sri Krishna(Vishnu) is The Supreme Personality of Godhead. Let us remove commentators and apply ourselves to the transalation- one only needs a Sanskrit dictionary for the purpose:- BG 7.24 The only reason why i think commentators(i would rather listen to sages from paramparas instead of just mere commentators) are important is beacuse Sri Krishna explains "evam paramopara praptam...". Ok, so now let us keep your translation even:- Avvayktam - the Unmanifest; Vaykitam - to manifest; apannam- having come to- ;manyante -think; mam -me; abuddhyah-foolish; param- supreme; bhavam-nature; ajananto- not knowing; mum-me; avyayam-immutable; anutammam- unsurpassed. so your exact tanslation is :- "the Unmanifest to manifest having come to think, me ,foolish supreme nature not knowing immutable unsurpassed." Is it not crystal clear like the sun, is it any diffrent than what Srila Prabhupada is explaining ? Then why do you say"The foolish think of me the Unmanifest, as having manifestation, not knowing my supreme nature, immutable , unsurpassed "? Also , you claim, And mind you this is only the pure transalation. I do not or rather cannot agree based on the above Again Srila Prabhupada, has often mentioned that he is in a chain of a Parampara(disciplic sucession) and other paramparas also agree that Sri Krishna is the supreme personality of godhead. A story:- I once met a gret sage form the Updipi Mhadbva sampradaya visiting the usa, He was a sanyasi and a terrific preacher and very very humble and simple.He had nothing to do with ISKCON. When he saw that i was from Srila Prabhupada's mission he took me to the side, looked very gravely in my eyes and told me that "You are in very fortunate and please continue to do the good work Srila Prabupada's mission has kindly given you". You see there are many great teachers who are not from iskcon and who still have very high regards for Srila Prabhupada and his mission. So no, Prabhupada is not just "one commentator", rather he is a great sage and teacher , who is just in a chian of one of the disciplic sucessions who all accept that Sri Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchakjani Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 The Gita is part of the Mahabharat; Please go through the story wherein it is clearly explained how the Supreme(in this case Vishnu) took birth in human form for delivering the earth from evil. Bhishma(one of the greatest persons) explains diffrently in the Mahabharat, on his death bed, have you read it ? Anyway here is a verse form the Gita that disproves your point, and mind you it is explained by Sri Krishna , TEXT 9 janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna WORD FOR WORD janma -- birth; karma -- work; ca -- also; me -- of Mine; divyam -- transcendental; evam -- like this; yah -- anyone who; vetti -- knows; tattvatah -- in reality; tyaktva -- leaving aside; deham -- this body; punah -- again; janma -- birth; na -- never; eti -- does attain; mam -- unto Me; eti -- does attain; sah -- he; arjuna -- O Arjuna. TRANSLATION One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna. PURPORT The Lord's descent from His transcendental abode is already explained in the 6th verse. One who can understand the truth of the appearance of the Personality of Godhead is already liberated from material bondage, and therefore he returns to the kingdom of God immediately after quitting this present material body. Such liberation of the living entity from material bondage is not at all easy. The impersonalists and the yogis attain liberation only after much trouble and many, many births. Even then, the liberation they achieve -- merging into the impersonal brahmajyoti of the Lord -- is only partial, and there is the risk of returning to this material world. But the devotee, simply by understanding the transcendental nature of the body and activities of the Lord, attains the abode of the Lord after ending this body and does not run the risk of returning to this material world. In the Brahma-samhita (5.33) it is stated that the Lord has many, many forms and incarnations: advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam. Although there are many transcendental forms of the Lord, they are still one and the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. One has to understand this fact with conviction, although it is incomprehensible to mundane scholars and empiric philosophers. As stated in the Vedas (Purusa-bodhini Upanisad): eko devo nitya-lilanurakto bhakta-vyapi hrdy antar-atma "The one Supreme Personality of Godhead is eternally engaged in many, many transcendental forms in relationships with His unalloyed devotees." This Vedic version is confirmed in this verse of the Gita personally by the Lord. He who accepts this truth on the strength of the authority of the Vedas and of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and who does not waste time in philosophical speculations attains the highest perfectional stage of liberation. Simply by accepting this truth on faith, one can, without a doubt, attain liberation. The Vedic version tat tvam asi is actually applied in this case. Anyone who understands Lord Krishna to be the Supreme, or who says unto the Lord "You are the same Supreme Brahman, the Personality of Godhead," is certainly liberated instantly, and consequently his entrance into the transcendental association of the Lord is guaranteed. In other words, such a faithful devotee of the Lord attains perfection, and this is confirmed by the following Vedic assertion: tam eva viditvati mrtyum eti nanyah pantha vidyate 'yanaya "One can attain the perfect stage of liberation from birth and death simply by knowing the Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and there is no other way to achieve this perfection." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 3.8) That there is no alternative means that anyone who does not understand Lord Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead is surely in the mode of ignorance and consequently he will not attain salvation simply, so to speak, by licking the outer surface of the bottle of honey, or by interpreting the Bhagavad-gita according to mundane scholarship. Such empiric philosophers may assume very important roles in the material world, but they are not necessarily eligible for liberation. Such puffed-up mundane scholars have to wait for the causeless mercy of the devotee of the Lord. One should therefore cultivate Krishna consciousness with faith and knowledge, and in this way attain perfection. Sri Krishna clearly differs from your view. But kindly stop trying to state that yours is the only true path. That certainly is not true and such talk reduces the proponent to the level of the English Crusaders or the fanatical Muslim who propogates the Only Allah theory. Lets see what Sri Krishna asks us to do 18.64 TEXT 66 sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah WORD FOR WORD sarva-dharman -- all varieties of religion; parityajya -- abandoning; mam -- unto Me; ekam -- only; saranam -- for surrender; vraja -- go; aham -- I; tvam -- you; sarva -- all; papebhyah -- from sinful reactions; moksayisyami -- will deliver; ma -- do not; sucah -- worry. TRANSLATION Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear. PURPORT The Lord has described various kinds of knowledge and processes of religion -- knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways different types of religion. Now, in summarizing Bhagavad-gita, the Lord says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explained to him; he should simply surrender to Krishna. That surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personally promises to protect him. In the Seventh Chapter it was said that only one who has become free from all sinful reactions can take to the worship of Lord Krishna. Thus one may think that unless he is free from all sinful reactions he cannot take to the surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one is not free from all sinful reactions, simply by the process of surrendering to Sri Krishna he is automatically freed. There is no need of strenuous effort to free oneself from sinful reactions. One should unhesitatingly accept Krishna as the supreme savior of all living entities. With faith and love, one should surrender unto Him. The process of surrender to Krishna is described in the Hari-bhakti vilasa (11.676): anukulyasya sankalpah pratikulyasya varjanam raksisyatiti visvaso goptrtve varanam tatha atma-niksepa-karpanye sad-vidha saranagatih According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Krishna consciousness, all his activities are in vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Krishna consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Krishna will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Krishna will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Krishna the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Krishna consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Krishna does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Krishna will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reactions. One should be attracted by the beautiful vision of Krishna. His name is Krishna because He is all-attractive. One who becomes attracted by the beautiful, all-powerful, omnipotent vision of Krishna is fortunate. There are different kinds of transcendentalists -- some of them are attached to the impersonal Brahman vision, some of them are attracted by the Supersoul feature, etc., but one who is attracted to the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, above all, one who is attracted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Krishna Himself, is the most perfect transcendentalist. In other words, devotional service to Krishna, in full consciousness, is the most confidential part of knowledge, and this is the essence of the whole Bhagavad-gita. Karma-yogis, empiric philosophers, mystics and devotees are all called transcendentalists, but one who is a pure devotee is the best of all. The particular words used here, ma sucah, "Don't fear, don't hesitate, don't worry," are very significant. One may be perplexed as to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and simply surrender unto Krishna, but such worry is useless. So it is Sri Krishna who is clearly explianig that we need surrender to him alone as seen in the verse above. Regards Suchak Jani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 "BG 7.24 Avvayktam - the Unmanifest; Vaykitam - to manifest; apannam- having come to- ;manyante -think; mam -me; abuddhyah-foolish; param- supreme; bhavam-nature; ajananto- not knowing; mum-me; avyayam-immutable; anutammam- unsurpassed. Which when strung into a sentence becomes:_ The foolish think of me the Unmanifest, as having manifestation, not knowing my supreme nature, immutable , unsurpassed-" ••••yes, but we have to see the complete picture of bhagavad gita and scriptural teachings... no one is saying that the absolute has not an impersonal manifestation, we are saying that he has also the personal one.. obviously "the foolish" is only on the gross material plane and krsna is saying: "i am not manifestated as human, i am not a common individual" /images/graemlins/smile.gif 1)smash the material conception of the material form and individuality 2)then reveal the existence of spiritual forms and individuality 3)actually the translation of prabhupada is right, because he consider the complete picture and not the particular (the foolish think of me the unmanifest in the matter...) 4)find the same coherence in another bhagavad gita or in a so called "letteral" translation... coherence also with all vedic teachings and logic and common sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASWARAN Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 No it is not Krishna who is saying this- the Supreme unmanifested formless is saying it- Krishna is only the human medium through which the supreme is acting- If you remember my earlier posts wherein I had mentioned that the Purusha is inactive and when in contact with Prakriti can acts come into being. I believe you are confusing Krishna to be the Supreme himslef instead of an Avataar- do not forget Krishna (the human form) dies of an arrow in his leg at the end of the Mahabharat. This is consistent with a human manifestation only. Sorry my two earlier posts came out as Guest- I had forgotten to log in- the cookie does not seem to be doing its job too well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 Please go through the story wherein it is clearly explained how the Supreme(in this case Vishnu) took birth in human form for delivering the earth from evil. Unfortunately ignorant people misunderstand the Lord's divine birth and appearance and consider him to be an ordinary man: avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam param bhavam ajananto mama bhuta-mahesvaram "Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." Some people consider Lord Krishna to be a human manifestation, but they fail to understand the Lord's divine nature, His param-bhavam. Throughout the Gita Lord Krishna is referred to as Bhagavan and Purushottama, both of which indicate His divine personality. Purushottama literally means "the Supreme Person". Lord Krishna is eternally the Supreme Personality of Godhead as confirmed throughout the Gita: yasmat ksharam atito 'ham aksarad api cottamah ato 'smi loke vede ca prathitah purusottamah "Because I am transcendental, beyond both the fallible and the infallible, and because I am the greatest, I am celebrated both in the world and in the Vedas as that Supreme Person." Please note that Lord Krishna is celebrated in the Vedas as the transcendental Supreme Person. Nowhere in the Gita does Lord Krishna state his form to be mundane, material, temporary, or ordinary. On the contrary, every verse speaks about his divine transcedental form and personality. Krishna's own words are that he is purushottama, the Supreme Person. Lord Krishna's birth and activities are not material. Lord Krishna states in the Gita that they are divine (divyam). Simply by knowing them one becomes free from the material existence: janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna "One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." And simply by remembering Lord Krishna at the time of death one attains the divine abode of Lord Krishna, param dhama. anta-kale ca mam eva smaran muktva kalevaram yah prayati sa mad-bhavam yati nasty atra samsayah "And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt." In the Upanishads Lord Krishna's spiritual form is confirmed as follows: sac-cid-ananda-rupaya krishnaya Lord Krishna's rupa (form) is eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss. He is not an ordinary human manifestation as the ignorant proclaim. Brahma-ji sings his glory in the Brahma-samhita as follows: isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam "Krishna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes." The great sages Asita, Narada and Vyasa all consider him the Supreme Person: arjuna uvaca param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan purusam sasvatam divyam adi-devam ajam vibhum ahus tvam rsayah sarve devarsir naradas tatha asito devalo vyasah svayam caiva bravisi me "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me." What is Arjuna's conclusion of Lord Krishna? svayam evatmanatmanam vettha tvam purusottama bhuta-bhavana bhutesa deva-deva jagat-pate "Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the universe!" According to Arjuna, Lord Krishna is the God of gods (devadeva), the origin of all (bhuta-bhavana), Lord of all beings (bhutesha), and the Supreme Person, purushottama. And Lord Krishna's conslusion is as follows: yo mam evam asammudho janati purushottamam sa sarva-vid bhajati mam sarva-bhavena bharata "Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is to be understood as the knower of everything, and He therefore engages himself in full devotional service, O son of Bharata." One who knows Lord Krishna as the Supreme Person knows everything. Other's, regardless of how educated they may think themselves to be, are in the darkness of avidya. This is the self-evident conclusion of the Gita. Vishnu incidentally is the name given to one of the facets of the supreme Lord and nust not be thought of as the guy reclining on the Cobra. No, Vishnu is the supreme Absolute Truth, who is unsurpassed and equaled by none including Brahma and Shiva. Lord Krishna confirms this as follows in the Gita: mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya mayi sarvam idam protam sutre mani-gana iva "O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." The Supreme Person (purushottama) Bhagavan Sri Krishna has stated Himself to be the supreme truth. No where does he say some unmanifested higher principle is supreme. Rather He says He Himself is Supreme. Throughout the Gita Lord Krishna uses words such as "I", "Me", "My", etc., yet foolish people conclude that these words do not actually refer to Krishna. Despite no indication anywhere in the Gita, they propose that these words actually refer to something "higher" than Krishna, some unmanifested truth not mentioned anywhere in the Gita. One who reads the Gita with an honest heart will see the self-evident message clearly, that Lord Krishna is the Supreme Truth whom we should surrender to: aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." The Supreme three facets are Brahma, Vishnu, Maheshwara (shiva ) otherwise called the creator, sustainer and destroyer. This looks to be something picked up from a 5th grade text book on Hinduism written by an Englishman. The Upanishads state: narayanad brahma jayate, narayanad prajapatih prajayate, narayanad indro jayate, narayanad astau vasavo jayante, narayanad ekadasa rudra jayante, narayanad dvadasadityah. "From Narayana, Brahma is born, and from Narayana, the patriarchs are also born. From Narayana, Indra is born, from Narayana the eight Vasus are born, from Narayana the eleven Rudras are born, from Narayana the twelve Adityas are born." Thus Narayana is clearly established as the Supreme Person. eko vai narayana asin na brahma na isano napo nagni samau neme dyav-aprthivi na naksatrani na suryah sa ekaki na ramate tasya dhyanantah sthasya yatra chandogaih kriyamanastakadi-samjnaka stuti-stomah stomam ucyate. "In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Narayana. There was no Brahma, no Siva, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun. There was only Narayana, who creates all and enjoys all" And from the Puranas: narayanah paro devas tasmaj jatas caturmukhah tasmad rudro 'bhavad devah sa ca sarva-jnatam gatah. "Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahma was born, from whom Siva was born." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASWARAN Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 No disageement with this statement- the unmanifest does manifest occassionaly but the distinction should be clear - the manifest is finite and for specific purposes only- rg Krishna, Rama etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 " Those of us who pursue the path of Advaita , find it much easier to believe in a formless reality in which all merge. There are others who would like to believe in a Lord with form -no quarrel -partner. If that is the path you have chosen , more power to you." yes there's fanaticisms, but there's also the "all is the same, let us stop to discuss" fanaticism one fanatic try to smash others with his idea another fanatic try to smash others with the idea that all the discussions are bad.... that is another "his" idea so... let us peacefully (personalists and impersonalists) explain our position... and, what we find muche easier to believe is not a very important subject... the important thing is the reality not what we believe or what is easy to believe (vishnu is not energetic and impersonal.. he's a person full of quality and his manifestations are also persons, but divine, not human.. this is your problem.. to identify personality with human personality.. vishnu, krsna, varaha, narasimha, vamana, kalki etc obviously are real individual persons but not human persons discuss this: human form and divine form) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 " the Purusha is inactive and when in contact with Prakriti can acts come into being. I believe you are confusing Krishna to be the Supreme himslef instead of an Avataar- do not forget Krishna (the human form) dies of an arrow in his leg at the end of the Mahabharat" 1)purusha is an individua, personal concept... purusha acts, and when he acts through the prakriti he acts thru a thing that is created by Him... so if he acts directly or thru prakriti he has the quality to be active, directly or indirectly 2)let us for now leave the discussion if krsna or vishnu is the supreme... we are at a lower level of discussion, very close to "atheism vs theism".... but vishnu is a person (divine not human) and his manifestations are persons (divine not human) 3)krsna displays this "pseudo-death" to quit his pastimes in this world... and it is logic, how he, after killing so many big demons, even when he was a little child.. how he could die with an arrow in a foot... neither a human dies for an arrow in a foot so neither this lila does not fall under the human realm and does not demonstrate that krsna, supreme or avatara (actually he's both things), is human. another problem is that you use vishnu as an impersonal inactive unmanifested concept... but it is not true, vishnu has many activities, he's a person!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 "the distinction should be clear - the manifest is finite and for specific purposes only- rg Krishna, Rama etc. " #### why? this is your assumption... we have a finite manifest in the material world and an infinite one in the spiritual world if the infinite is the source of matter, what's in the matter has to be also in the infinite /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 There are others who would like to believe in a Lord with form -no quarrel -partner. If that is the path you have chosen , more power to you. But kindly stop trying to state that yours is the only true path. That certainly is not true. Right and wrong has nothing to do with choice or belief. Those who follow sanatana dharma accept the Vedas as spiritual authority, and thus those doctrines that go against the teachings of the Vedas are rejected. Those who profess a path contrary to the Vedic teachings, while claiming to be based on sanatana dharma, should expect their erroneous views to be challenged and exposed. For example, anyone who would proclaim that there are three supreme beings (Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh) should not be surprised if someone points out their fallacy. Basing one's belief on western views of Hinduism (from where the concept of the absolute trinity comes) is not a good foundation. I feel, it does not matter whom you worship or believe in; it is how much you believe and trust that makes the difference. Of course you don't have to agree with me. And some people firmly believe and trust that by blowing up buildings with truck bombs they are pleasing God. Such belief and trust is meaningless as it is not actually in tune with the will of God. The view that all paths are equal and valid is foolish. A path that is against dharma is not equal to dharma. Any belief that espouses all paths as equal and correct is itself adharma as it encourages adharma in the name of tolerance. Shankara was not tolerant, he debated and defeated all those who objected to his conclusions. The same is the case with Ramanuja, Madhva and other acharyas. I agree that all paths may not be same but I strongly believe that the final destination is same. Yet the Vedas teach differently. According to the Vedas, those who engage in sinful conduct attain hellish births. Krishna states the following about such demoniac people: yah shastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah na sa siddhim avapnoti na sukham na param gatim "But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination." Krishna clearly states that those who do not act according to the Vedic scriptures do not attain the supreme destination. All paths do not lead to the same goal according to the Gita. There are many Hindus who actually relish eating animal meat and I have met quite a few Brahmins who have no qualms about eating meat. Those who kill animals are engaging in sinful activity regardless of which religion they claim to follow. Simply because someone is born in a Hindu family does not make them exempt from karmic reaction. The laws of nature will punish all of us for the violence we inflict on others, and Hindus are no exception. Those who live demonic lifestyles, engaging in sinful conduct, are treated in a special way by Lord Krishna: tan aham dvisatah kruran samsaresu naradhaman ksipamy ajasram asubhan asurisv eva yonisu "Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life." asurim yonim apanna mudha janmani janmani mam aprapyaiva kaunteya tato yanty adhamam gatim "Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence." I find it really strange to think that a person who worships only a particular God will reach a better place than another who worships another God. Tell me yas, was it in our hands when we took birth in our families? Was it in our hands to decide if we would be brought up under Hindu, Muslim, Christian upbringing? NO...it was not. God will never differentiate with us. This displays complete ignorance of the laws of karmic reaction which are the foundation of Hindu philosophy. God does not determine who is born in a rich or poor family, who is born in a Christian or Hindu family, etc. Our own past actions have determined our present situation, thus our birth is our own choice and fault. Just as one born as an animal or tree has little chance to engage in dharma, so some humans born in other cultures also have little chance to perform true dharma. Those who are sincere in their heart will be guided by the paramatma to the right path. According to the Gita it is one out of many thousands who will perform true dharma, thus we should not be surprised if the majority of the world is engaged in adharma. We can disagree on 'n' number of things but let us not say that 'I am right and you are wrong.' Follow the path which is most convenient, suitable and acceptable to you. As a sanatana-dharmi I follow the path of the Vedas. Dharma is not about what is convenient and easy, it is about what is right and true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkEye Posted December 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 god cannot die?....then it will mean that he cannot do what we can do! (to die)..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 Who says you can die? We can achieve deep states of slumber, awaken and then choose to sleep again, but die?, no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 yes... my vote for theist... no one dies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASWARAN Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 It is the Atman which does not die- but the body definitely does - for every beginning has an end and what is born must die, -hence the supreme is referred to in the BG -No Jayate mritaye kadachit ..etc If we are all self realised here already and agree that no one dies - it's just great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASWARAN Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Most interesting theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REASWARAN Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 You are evidently no student of history. There are a few -very few absolute rights and wrongs and these are also to a very large extent by social mores. For the rest it is almost always the persons who have the most influence in a particular place and time who decide what is right and what is wrong:- Let me give you an example- India is largely a very traditional society where (forget the larger cities) girls are expected to keep male company to a minimum and the expectation that the girl is a virgin when she is married is very high. This is true almost all over India. However, there is a pocket in Central India where there is a concept of a Ghotul. This is a place where teenage boys and girls mix freely once they reach the age of puberty and freely have sex with the full consent of thier parents and elders. In fact once they cross puberty they spend all their nights in the Ghotul, and step back into household onl when they enter into marriage. I may mention that the only condition in a ghotul is that no girl or boy should have the same partner too often, and is this is seen happening then the couple may have to leave the ghotul and get married. The purpose of this story is to bring into focus that absolute rights and wrongs are a rarity and most rights and wrongs are brought into existence through social mores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 "It is the Atman which does not die- but the body definitely does " ••••yes... but the statement was "NO ONE DIES".. or "NO LIVING BEING DIES"... and a body is not an individual who dies or lives... so, no one dies.. he simply change clothes, who being made of dead matter (wool, cotton, skin, human skin in our discussion) they necessarily, at a certain point, disgregate and get destroyed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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