What are the qualifications of a diksa guru?

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada states the qualifications of a diksa guru:

 

"Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of ones own heart.

(SB (BBT 1987) 10.2.18)

 

"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities. "

(SPL (VI 1987) 68.4.18)

 

"Any person who seriously desires to achieve real happiness must seek out a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of his spiritual master is that he must have realised the conclusion of the scriptures by deliberation and be able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the supreme godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, are to be understand as bona fide spiritual masters. "

(SB (BBT 1987) 11.3.21)

 

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. "

(NOI 5(BBT 1975)

 

"Unless one is a resident of Krsna-Loka, one cannot be a spiritual master. "

(SPL Mukunda Das, 10/6/1969)

 

"A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. "

(NOI 5(BBT 1975))

 

"The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class. "

(CC (BBT 1975) Madhya 24.330)

 

[Guest guest]

"When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

(Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 24.330, purport)

 

 

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari." (The Nectar of Instruction, text 5, purport)

 

[anadi]

"When one has attained the topmost position of maha-bhagavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshipped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

(Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila, 24.330, purport)

 

"One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari." (The Nectar of Instruction, text 5, purport)

 

 

Maybe this is why many people were told from their "guru", as far as I know from Germany and from Romania that there is no need of dikSa.

 

But also in this forum were such discussions.

 

At least in Romania Suhotra Svami told the temple president that there is no need of dikSa and he will give no more dikSa.

 

Maybe this is duplicious. They don't recognize they are not qualified and that's why they say there is no need of dikSa.

They go against parampara, guru and Sastra.

And this ideea is backed up from higher management levels.

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami says in UpadeSamRta

 

krsneti yasya giri taµ manasAdriyeta

<font color="blue"> dIKSAsti cet praNatibhiS ca bhajantam iSam</font color>

SUSRuAayA bhajana-vijNam ananyam anya-

NindAdi Sunya-hRdam Ipsita-saNga-labdhyA

 

Adriyeta one should respect; manas. within the mind;

Tam that person (a neophyte devotee); yasya giri in whose speech; iti thus (appears); kRSNa one name of KRSNa;

 

<font color="blue"> praNatibhiH one should offer praNAma;

ca also;

bhajantam to an intermediate devotee who, (being endowed with the correct understanding of reality and illusion, performs bhajana in accordance with the VaiSNava conventions);

Isam to his Istadeva;

cet <font color="red"> if; asti -he has;

dikSA accepted initiation from a qualified guru</font color>; </font color>

 

SuSRuSayA one should do all types of service

bhajana vijNam to a self-realised, expert mahA-bhAgavata

(VaiSNava who performs bhajana of Sri RAdhA-KRSNa's eightfold daily pastimes by rendering service mentally;

ananyam who is one pointed, exclusive devotee of Sri KRSNa;

anya nindAdi Sunya hRdam and whose heart is free from faults (due to his undeviating absorption in KRSNa),

labdhyA having obtained;

Ipsita saNga the association for which one hankers (the association of a topmost devotee whose heart is established in the particular mood of service to Sri RAdhA-KRSNa for which one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself).

 

[Govindaram]

Hare Krishna

 

To read your posts?

 

They are so confucing on my eyes.

 

Haribol!!!!!

 

[anadi]

I put it simple.

1.Because of not being qualified to be a dikSa guru

they say there is no need of dikSa.

2.But our acaryas say go to guru and take dikSa.

 

PS

But anyway you are a ritvik (guru drohi) and you are much more on the extreme than they are - no guru at all.

Don't spit on the parampara!

The parampara is always manifested - <font color="red"> prakata</font color>.

Parampara doesn't mean something that it was and <font color="blue"> is finished</font color> .

[Govindaram]

hare krishna

 

Ps. I am not a ritvik. i don't go around blaspheme devotees, while at the same time calling myself a prabhupadanuga.

[anadi]

I thaught you are one of them.

I think I took you for somebody else that was (is)in this forum.

 

vANchA-kalpa-tarubyaS ca kRpA-sindhubhya eva ca

patitAnAM pAvanebhyo vaiSNavebhyo namo namaH

[gHari]

Krsna advises in Bhagavad-gita 4.34:<blockquote><font color="red"><center>"tad viddhi praNipAtena

paripraznena sevayA

upadekSyanti te jJAnaM

jJAninas </font><font color="blue">tattva-darzinaH</font><font color="red">

</center>

tat--that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi--try to understand; praNipAtena--by approaching a spiritual master; paripraznena--by submissive inquiries; sevayA--by the rendering of service; upadekSyanti--they will initiate; te--you; jJAnam--into knowledge; jJAninaH--the self-realized; </font><font color="blue">tattva--of the truth; darzinaH--seers.

</font>

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because <font color="blue">they have seen the truth.</font>

 

 

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The BhAgavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmaM tu sAkSAd bhagavat-praNItam: the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to the right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. Not only should one hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.</blockquote>

[Govindaram]

i am wondering now, if everybody thinks the same,

if in doubt about my state of my mind, just check

out my jokes (in the jokes section) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Happy Ribit.

[anadi]

Govindaram Prabhu, what I meant it was a new point in connection to the old "dikSa issue" related to the qualification to be a dikSa guru.

 

The qualification for being a dikSa guru is highest.

And because of lack of qualification, they say just OK!

than we will make a law: there is no need of dikSa.

 

Was that so complicated?

 

PS

Qhari Prabhu was not interested in our issue, but was focused on the qualification only.

[raga]

 

At least in Romania Suhotra Svami told the temple president that there is no need of dikSa and he will give no more dikSa.

 

 

What's your source for this bit of news?

[Guest guest]

Yes B.G. 4:34,is true Guru Tattva.

Hare Krishna

[anadi]

Four months ago I was in Romania and I talked to some devotees there, who were waiting for some years for initiation, some left for a karmi life. Some read in the Web about Suhotra Svami and than left for astanga Yoga which is very powerful, and very good organized in almost every town in Romania.

 

The matter of fact I was only one time in the temple, and I know the people there for about 12 years, but there was a very strange atmosphere, everybody was feared to say something, like in the old CeauSescu totalitarian times.

I will not say what kind of things I've heard later from the ones that live outside, about what happends there.

 

Anyway they still think their guru is a pure devotee, and what he says is law. So he says Gaudya Math are mayavadis and one should not talk to them, and GBC are pure devotees.

and

only the ones who follw Prabhupada AC Bhaktivedanta Svami are VaiSnavas, which means to follow Iskcon!

 

Anyway Krishna gives everyone what he desires.

Krishna is the bigest ...

 

[Guest guest]

Anadi Prabhu,

 

Can I ask a question?

 

I have seen all these posts you have presented regarding controversies between the teachings of ISKCON's leaders and the leader devotees of Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti.

 

My question is why do members of Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti spend so much time and thought quarreling with ISKCON. Why don't you go and preach to new people in Germany or Russia. ISKCON is mostly busy with preaching to new people. If ISKCON devotees are having some differences of philosophy from Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti then why doesn't the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti just maintain peace and stay away from ISKCON. Better not to disturb ISKCON. Maybe some faults are there in ISKCON, but why create quarrels with ISKCON because it is just useless fighting. You can live in peace with ISKCON, but we see that Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti is always trying to get people to leave ISKCON. Very aggressive.

 

If Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti want to debate with people about religion then why don't you debate with Christians or Muslims instead of ISKCON. ISKCON devotees worship KRSNA already,

 

[Guest guest]

These "war" comes from the missunderstanding of siddhanta of Gaudya VaiSnavism. If I go and "preach" to whoever I "preach" I do it according his adhikara.

 

I give you an example, so that you understand:

 

Gopala Bhata was not Iskcon but he came to Mahaprbhu pretending he knows siddhanta, Gaudya VaiSnava Siddhanta

 

Vallabha BhaTTa said, "I have tried to describe elaborately the meaning of

KRSNa's holy name. Kindly hear the explanation."

 

Lord Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu replied,"I do not accept many different

meanings for the holy name of KRSNa. I know only that Lord KRSNa is

Syamasundara and YaSodAnandana. That's all I know.

 

"The only purport of the holy name of KRSNa is that He is dark blue like a

tamla tree and is the son of mother YaSodA. This is the conclusion of all the

revealed scriptures.'

 

"I conclusively know these two names, Syamasundara and YaSodAnandana. I do

not understand any other meanings, nor have I the capacity to understand

them."

 

When Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu rigidly declined to hear his explanations,

Vallabha BhaTTa went home feeling morose.

 

Every day, Vallabha BhaTTa would come to the place of Sri Caitanya

Mahprabhu to engage in unnecessary arguments with Advaita AcArya and other

great personalities, such as SvarUpa DAmodara.

 

"Every day I am defeated in this assembly. If by chance I am one day

victorious, that will be a great source of happiness for me, and all my shame

will go away. But what means shall I adopt to establish my statements?"

 

This was his false ego!

He waged war and wanted to be victorious!

 

Mahaprabhu was quareling with Gopala Bhata, but he preached nagara sankirtana!

We do also both. Everywhere new devotees join our mats, not only the ones like Gopala Bhata who at gave up his pride and material ... and surrendered to Mahaprabhu.

 

If I preach to a Iskcon person who says he will explain me the different names of Krishna, I say the same as our Perceptor who we follow: Krishna has only one meaning - the original Syamasundare the beloved of the gopis, the natavara Vrajaraja, the bala - gopala, and above all the Radha Raman.

 

If you only preach he is the Highest Controller and the Maintainer of the worlds ... your mind becomes absorbed in these thoughts and the gaudya vaiSnavas are not atracted particularly to this features of the Lord.

 

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante kalevaram

tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tad bhavabhavitah

 

 

[Guest guest]

These "war" comes from the missunderstanding of siddhanta of Gaudya VaiSnavism. If I go and "preach" to whoever I "preach" I do it according his adhikara.

 

I give you an example, so that you understand:

 

Gopala Bhata was not Iskcon but he came to Mahaprbhu pretending he knows siddhanta, Gaudya VaiSnava Siddhanta

 

Vallabha BhaTTa said, "I have tried to describe elaborately the meaning of

KRSNa's holy name. Kindly hear the explanation."

 

Lord Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu replied,"I do not accept many different

meanings for the holy name of KRSNa. I know only that Lord KRSNa is

Syamasundara and YaSodAnandana. That's all I know.

 

"The only purport of the holy name of KRSNa is that He is dark blue like a

tamla tree and is the son of mother YaSodA. This is the conclusion of all the

revealed scriptures.'

 

"I conclusively know these two names, Syamasundara and YaSodAnandana. I do

not understand any other meanings, nor have I the capacity to understand

them."

 

When Sri Caitanya MahAprabhu rigidly declined to hear his explanations,

Vallabha BhaTTa went home feeling morose.

 

Every day, Vallabha BhaTTa would come to the place of Sri Caitanya

Mahprabhu to engage in unnecessary arguments with Advaita AcArya and other

great personalities, such as SvarUpa DAmodara.

 

"Every day I am defeated in this assembly. If by chance I am one day

victorious, that will be a great source of happiness for me, and all my shame

will go away. But what means shall I adopt to establish my statements?"

 

This was his false ego!

He waged war and wanted to be victorious!

 

Mahaprabhu was quareling with Gopala Bhata, but he preached nagara sankirtana!

We do also both. Everywhere new devotees join our mats, not only the ones like Gopala Bhata who at gave up his pride and material ... and surrendered to Mahaprabhu.

 

If I preach to a Iskcon person who says he will explain me the different names of Krishna, I say the same as our Perceptor who we follow: Krishna has only one meaning - the original Syamasundare the beloved of the gopis, the natavara Vrajaraja, the bala - gopala, and above all the Radha Raman.

 

If you only preach he is the Highest Controller and the Maintainer of the worlds ... your mind becomes absorbed in these thoughts and the gaudya vaiSnavas are not atracted particularly to this features of the Lord.

 

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajanty ante kalevaram

tam tam evaiti kaunteya sada tad bhavabhavitah

 

 

[anadi]

Previous post by anadi

[yasodanandana]

i'd avoid to speak with cathegories "iskcon members", "vadanta samhiti members"... there's a big danger to make offences, because if we are right criticizing 999 members of an organization, we go to hell for the perhaps only one who is a very nice devotee. So better to stop speaking of organizations... let us speak of single people..

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

someone is discriminated because he has a certain guru (this happens in every camp.. and religion.. if we do not put the focus on god, who is ONE, we start to see the differences... a good job of maya)

 

sometimes who has a certain guru does not bear : "you are not a follower of prabhupada because you are not initiated by an iskcon guru" because it is (IMHO) absurd

 

sometimes who is discriminated (in every camp) goes beyond the natural and saint right to defend his position, and starts to fight for his own sense gratification.. and sometimes he's happy when he sees difficulties in the disciples of the "OTHER" gurus

 

sometimes there's people who live a "ritvikized" mood of iskcon (and it makes me very, very sorry): "prabhupada is my real and only possible master, this is achieved simply "belonging" to iskcon.... i can take PERHAPS the initiation by some sannyasi who is coming in the temple, but i do not require so much from him, i do not care if he's pure.. he's more like a common human, not like prabhupada (who is the only pure devotee)!!"

 

sometimes....of course

 

(i am sure that there's pure devotees/masters in iskcon)

 

a guru has to be like the one in the guruvastakam, one who sees krsna and collaborates with gopis to serve Him and Radharani, nothing more, nothing less...

 

who believes that the guru is a common man (or woman) he will never advance.. because if guru is authentic he's doing aparadha, if the guru is bogus he(the disciple) is cheating another poor soul cheated by maya

[yasodanandana]

"What are the qualifications of a diksa guru?"

 

i'd want to add that a diksa and a siksa guru must have the same qualifications... they must have the direct darshan of krsna to give it to the disciple..

 

if one's teaching to us and he's not completely pure, he falls' more in the cathegory of friends, brothers, elder brothers, not "tecnically" masters

 

[kailasa]

***but we see that Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti is always trying to get people to leave ISKCON. Very aggressive.

 

Oh yes, Prabhu. They so care about ISKCON, sooo care...

[kailasa]

***but we see that Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti is always trying to get people to leave ISKCON. Very aggressive

 

Yes. It is they method self satisfaction. /images/graemlins/smile.gif If some person dirty, then he is see dirty everiwhere.

[Guest guest]

Si tutto qui e giusto e perfetto

e allora Dio Krishna e il piu bello

[anadi]

Some Iskcon leaders' problem is that after some time people leave this organization, like the disidents that left the comunist countries.

Why did they leave? Oh, they were traitors, they have betrayed the Comunist Party, the country and the russian folk.

What was this propaganda?

They could fool all the people for some time.

They could fool some people all the time. but

They cannot fool all the people all the time.

 

Is the same as this Iskcon propaganda. The ones that left they are traitors against Prabhupada.

 

A transcendentalist is pleased when his pupil goes to an elevated spiritual master.

A materialist is very unpleased when his pupil worked for him and than left in the west.

 

This is not my problem.

 

My duty is to preach the message of Mahaprabhu:

go to the folowers of Rupa and the Gosvamis and take dikSa. Be sincere, humble, surrendered, realize sambandha in your daily sadhana, meditating on the goal of your sadhana, which is bhava in that particular sambandha that gurudeva gave you, learn siddhanta to please gurudeva and the VaiSnavas and realize all this truth BY THE MERCY OF THE REALIZED SOUL -YOUR GURUDEVA.

 

[Guest guest]

***Some Iskcon leaders' problem is that after some time people leave this organization, like the disidents that left the comunist countries.

Why did they leave? Oh, they were traitors, they have betrayed the Comunist Party, the country and the russian folk.

 

Spiritual life it is not Russian.

 

***What was this propaganda?

 

It is misconception.

 

***They could fool all the people for some time.

They could fool some people all the time. but

They cannot fool all the people all the time.

 

From you organisation people leave.

 

***Is the same as this Iskcon propaganda. The ones that left they are traitors against Prabhupada.

 

Veda samiti so careful about ISKCON.

 

****A transcendentalist is pleased when his pupil goes to an elevated spiritual master.

 

They do so many mistakes, but ...ISKCON bad. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

***A materialist is very unpleased when his pupil worked for him and than left in the west.

 

Materialists make zombis.

 

***This is not my problem.

 

Yes they has many more problem...but they rasika. No ISKCON not has soo big abilities for spiritual life.

 

***My duty is to preach the message of Mahaprabhu:

go to the folowers of Rupa and the Gosvamis and take dikSa. Be sincere, humble, surrendered, realize sambandha in your daily sadhana, meditating on the goal of your sadhana, which is bhava in that particular sambandha that gurudeva gave you, learn siddhanta to please gurudeva and the VaiSnavas and realize all this truth BY THE MERCY OF THE REALIZED SOUL -YOUR GURUDEVA.

 

I am know himself for me guru, but in your organisations so many people only speak about spiritual life. Dream. They may be vaikuntha devotee - "no no I am gopi". Gopi best - spiritual envy. Material buisnes.

 

Some not know nothing but....I am in Goloka - dream.

[yasodanandana]

"Si tutto qui e giusto e perfetto

e allora Dio Krishna e il piu bello "

 

(here everything is right and perfect.. krsna, the supreme personality of godhead is the most beautiful)

 

oltre che essere un bravo devoto sai scrivere pure un buon italiano

 

(you're a nice devotee and you write a good italian)

 

hare krishna (= cara radharani, per favore dammi l'amore per krishna (dear radharani, please give to me the love for krishna))