Prabhupada: I will never die

[yasodanandana]

obviously you were not speaking with me... i gave my opinion when i have read this:

""Only one who makes a serious, SERIOUS study of Srila Prabhupada's books and lectures can understand the requriements for perfection. "

 

and now you have said this:

" he said ........ that we can't judge perfection because WE are not perfect"

 

i am not judging what other things this guy said, but this is true... we cannot develope any ability to recognize the pure devotee, the only hope is to be blessed by his mercy and to be recognized and saved by him

[ancient_paztriot]

" we cannot develope any ability to recognize the pure devotee, the only hope is to be blessed by his mercy and to be recognized and saved by him "

 

I beg to disagree with this.

 

We may not have the prior knowledge of Sri Guru, but we can be informed enough to make an intelligent decision. We do this with cars and schools and jobs and everything… and yes, with gurus.

 

Otherwise it is blind faith… which is perfectly alright if it happens to be the right choice. The danger is getting the imitation or something otherwise defective. ISKCON history is the perfect example.

[yasodanandana]

" we cannot develope any ability to recognize the pure devotee, the only hope is to be blessed by his mercy and to be recognized and saved by him "

I beg to disagree with this.

••••ok, but read the other message by me... i do not say that reading the scriptures to learn the features of the devotees it is not good... it is good and necessary, I only say that ultimately it works if we are blessed by krsna to understand the real meaning of these features. And krsna gives this mercy if we have intense desire.. and this desire is demonstrated also because we read and study.

A devotee do not believe to have made some advancement for his efforts and skills, a devote thinks that it is only for krsna's mercy. And also being blessed by the advent of a pure devotee in our life is ultimately krsna's mercy, not for our erudition on scriptures.

 

but we can be informed enough to make an intelligent decision.

•••yes.. informed by our reading and mostly.. inspired (and informed) by sri krsna by his CAUSELESS mercy (causeless means that it does not come because we develope some competence)

 

The danger is getting the imitation or something otherwise defective.

••••yes, why not.. faith can be perverted in "blind faith" and spiritual culture can be polluted as arid erudition.. the defect is the lack of seriousness and real desire.. crying

 

ISKCON history is the perfect example.

••••i do not want to make critics to iskcon, the problem is not a "group" problem, it is a personal problem... but the phenomenon of false gurus can be a demonstration of lack of spiritual culture, as you have said and lack of intense desire to be blessed as i have said

 

GAURA GOVINDA MAHARAJA:

Gour Govinda Swami: Through his books, yes. All sadhus speak through their books. Jiva Goswami, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada all say that they speak through books.

This is not a new thing. This is our vaisnava procedure. But you should see him.Can you see Bhaktivinode Thakur? Can you see Jiva Goswami ? You may say, "Oh I have read their books, I have their association." That won't help you. You cannot understand what they have said merely by reading their books.Your consciousness is very low, so you cannot understand their words. They are very, very merciful, but you should follow the proper path. If you are intelligent you will understand how they are still here, not only in the form of their books but also they are here. You should see them. Why are you thinking so foolishly? So many books were already there, so why has Srila Prabhupada said this? You are thinking, " We need only to read books. There is no need of association with a sadhu who is physically present. Is there any sadhu No, there is no sadhu at all."

 

••••••••••••••••••••

 

Devotee: So we have to associate with a living sadhu?

Gour Govinda Swami: Definitely. There is always one there. But he is not a cheap person. Such a person is very rare. If you can get his mercy then you can see him. Otherwise, by your own effort and perception you cannot see him. No, no, no.

You always think that you are drasta, the seer, and that the sadhu is drsta, the one to be seen. Everyone is like this. They think they are the seers. But it is just the reverse. You are to be seen and they are the seer! Think this over very deeply. I think you cannot completely understand what I say. We always think that we are the seer and that they are to be seen, but this is not a fact. It is just the reverse. They are the seers and we are to be seen.

 

•••••••••••••••••••••

 

 

 

 

 

[theist]

What part does Caitya-guru, the internal and ultimate guide , play in this?

[theist]

Has anybody looked upon finding guru as an ongoing process that extends beyond formal intiation? Much like ,if not exactly like, diksa?

[ancient_paztriot]

Point by point basis not needed. I basically agree with you.

 

There is no way but mercy ultimately. Granted. But most of us don't get the mercy that removes us from this world.

 

Most of us struggle to be qualified for that mercy… even after 30 years. Till that mercy arrives, it's what we do that counts.

 

It is easier for some people due to previous experience. And between those that try, different abilities are manifest. We balance between mercy and volition - a razor's edge. Honestly, many of us simply bleed on that edge.

 

As far as your term sadhu goes, I think you mean "qualified spiritual master". Just about everyone agrees Prabhupada was such a person.

 

There is contention about others due to preference and so many other characteristics… including circumstance.

 

There have been lapses in the parampara before.

 

I'm not suggesting there aren't people as qualified as you imply. I have not met any. But the people I have not met are infinite.

 

I can speak of ISKCON because that is what I know. It is not flattering. I do not think ISKCON has a monopoly on Vedic science; quite the opposite.

 

Unfortunately, no has moved me the way Prabhupada did. I'm jaded, but not hopeless.

 

You want to avoid criticisms. So do I. There are so many doing better than I. This subject of spiritual master is something I try to avoid.

[yasodanandana]

"What part does Caitya-guru, the internal and ultimate guide , play in this? "

••••total...

 

we pray, we desire, we call the help of krishna with our efforts in study, in chanting in the behaviour but ultimately, in his causeless mercy the Caitya-guru manifest himself to us in the form of the phisical guru

[yasodanandana]

"Has anybody looked upon finding guru as an ongoing process that extends beyond formal intiation? Much like ,if not exactly like, diksa? "

••••i do not understand (surely for my poor english).... can you kindly extend your explanation?

[yasodanandana]

Most of us struggle to be qualified for that mercy… even after 30 years. Till that mercy arrives, it's what we do that counts.

••••yes, you're right... but 10, 20, 30, 100 years waiting.. there's anything else more important to wait for? "Hare krishna.... like the genuine cry of a child calling for the mother", so we are calling so many times everyday, even if unattentively, the partecipation of krsna in our life. And, as we have learned by srila prabhupada, krsna when he comes, he comes as chatya guru manifested in the "phisical" pure vaishnava guru.. so let us intensely wait for the advent of krsna in our life

 

As far as your term sadhu goes, I think you mean "qualified spiritual master". Just about everyone agrees Prabhupada was such a person.

•••••of course, we agree, all the vaishnava authorities in the world agree

 

I'm not suggesting there aren't people as qualified as you imply. I have not met any. But the people I have not met are infinite.

•••yes.. there's not to make particular efforts, we chant hare krishna that in itself is also a calling.... we associate with devotees, to associate means basically to look for teachings and shelter, if we are sincere the devotees will give us shelter directly acting as spiritual masters or indirectly bringing us to their spiritual master. So, everything we do in the devotional path, sooner or later brings to this.

 

Unfortunately, no has moved me the way Prabhupada did. I'm jaded, but not hopeless.

••••yes, it is not logical if all this efforts of srila prabhupada to bring us back to godhead are useless, so sri krishna, the caitya guru, manifestated in prabhupada, having shown to us the goal to achieve and the method to achieve it, is necessarily continuing his eternal mission even now incarnated in other pure vaishnavas.

 

You want to avoid criticisms. So do I.

•••••maybe it seems that i wanted somewhat to correct you but it was not my intention, please excuse me.. i was only saying that it is a normal phenomenon of kali yuga and that we have to face it on personal basis. One has to find HIS guru, to find his doctor.. then maybe he can speak of it as a social/institutional/political problem. One can give faults to parliaments, ministers, leaders, organizations... also to the poor souls cheated by maya in feeling themselves qualified to act as guru, but ultimately all these analysis are useless (prajalpa) if we are not blessed by a sincere desire to find a devotee as pure as the previous acharyas to bring us in the right path to krsna

[ancient_paztriot]

"… then maybe he can speak of it as a social/institutional/political problem."

 

No. I have enough knowledge and experience to expose hypocrisy and defects now.

 

If I speak as if my example is all in all, then I'm obviously not enlightened.

 

But if I repeat the standard understanding my position is hopeful… while I wait.

 

I'm gonna break my silence here about GURU for just a moment. I really don't like discussing it. I feel I'm tettering on a precipice doing so. I certainly fear offenses.

 

One has to feel guru is everything. But unfortunately, the reality is guru is not everything to "everyone" …not always! According to one's understanding or preference or experience, he may not appreciate guru. He may be right. He may be wrong.

 

As Christian colonization has left a bad taste in people's mouths, so many western devotees are fried over this guru issue following the wake of Prabhupada's dissapearance. I'm dubious. Many others are iffy.

 

I would caution anyone that this is a sensitive subject. Many people accepted the reputation of said guru and got burnt. Some even committed suicide. Only a fool would rush in after witnessing that experience.

 

Even if one is qualified, it is still highly subjective in terms of desire and preference.

 

To suggest others are lost without one is certainly true, but it is not the last word. There are other valid perspectives pivoting around time and circumstances. They may not be as lost as you think. In the long run, maybe it's better they wait - even for another life. Then again, maybe not.

 

But remember you are talking to experienced devotees on an issue like this. Many have tried what you suggests with devastating results. (Still, that is the process). I did not and probably won't… though I'm not closed to the idea.… but my heart has to know.

 

Please be sensitive to others that are jaded and stop the subtle innuendos. Others may not share your faith… and for good reason… even if they might be wrong.

[theist]

Yashodanandana, You often are concerned with your english. I never have trouble understanding you.

 

What I mean is that recognizing guru in the beginning is not like recognizing guru in the 'end'.

 

At first everything is rather hazy and ill defined but as we follow a bone fide teachers instructions all becomes clear. We say I accept guru but since we don't know much about the real person who we are accepting as guru how deep is our acceptance really? But it will deepen as the relationship grows.

 

I know that is not very clear but is the best I can do at the moment.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

"Please be sensitive to others that are jaded and stop the subtle innuendos."

 

•••••i was speaking with no other intention than to share my ideas with devotees.. it is very sad that speaking of guru tattva in a very basic way is hurting someone....

 

in a thread where we speak about prabhupada and guru, what one can say?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yashodanandana, You often are concerned with your english. I never have trouble understanding you.

•••••but sometimes i have troubles understandin others..

 

What I mean is that recognizing guru in the beginning is not like recognizing guru in the 'end'.

•••••yes, as all spiritual relationships it increases in quantity and quality.... and it goes sadly deeper also when one understands that the guru is not authentic and he has to leave him

 

We say I accept guru but since we don't know much about the real person who we are accepting as guru how deep is our acceptance really?

•••••yes, very weak.... very material, kanista, sectarian (when we put too much attention to the "bodily" aspect of the guru more than the thing that he's a representative of the ultimate guru.. krsna)

 

 

I know that is not very clear but is the best I can do at the moment.

••••••it is very clear... the important thing is not to say that if we are not deep the guru is useless because it would be a big mistake, more big than to say that the initiation is enough and one has not to make any effort to advance.

 

[Guest guest]

"There are other valid perspectives pivoting around time and circumstances. They may not be as lost as you think. In the long run, maybe it's better they wait - even for another life. Then again, maybe not."

•••••if we use the word guru to define also the fakes, you are surely true... better nothing than the fake ones.... but with all due respect human life is too rare and short to declare as a principle that loosing the opportunity to join krsna consciousness taking shelter in a spiritual master in this very life is not a problem

 

so let's have fear of the cheaters not of the vaishnavas

[Guest guest]

I suspect the reason we include those who are not qualified to be guru in the same category and under the same name of *guru* is because they are existing under that category. This is the reality of the problem, that many are looked up to as guru who are not. Ideaology that the word guru only refers to the qualified is nice, but its not whats going on. To resolve the problem the way it exists, we have to talk about it the way it exists.

[yasodanandana]

" Ideaology that the word guru only refers to the qualified is nice, but its not whats going on."

••••prabhupada many times explains that the definition "false guru" is a paradox.. so we can use it for better understanding but this is the fact. The danger is that if we state that the word guru means anything less than "uttama adhikari" more people in future will do the old famous same mistakes

 

To resolve the problem the way it exists, we have to talk about it the way it exists.

•••••yes the way is false or true, fake or authentic, sadhus and bogus.... i do not understand why to discriminate (madyam adhikari) is not the first step to resolve problems.

 

First to understand what is safe and what is ill..... then the cure

 

[ancient_paztriot]

Yasoda, you sound very wise.

 

I'm curious to know how old you are.

[yasodanandana]

"Yasoda, you sound very wise"

•••••••••••••••••••••

thanks prabhu, you are very kind, i like only to talk with devotees, i do not know if i am wise, maybe in theory but the practice is weak...

 

(1961...)

[Guest guest]

" Ideaology that the word guru only refers to the qualified is nice, but its not whats going on."

••••prabhupada many times explains that the definition "false guru" is a paradox.. so we can use it for better understanding but this is the fact. The danger is that if we state that the word guru means anything less than "uttama adhikari" more people in future will do the old famous same mistakes

 

------

 

That may be true, yet it is living in an idealistic world. It is fact that false gurus are also presnt now, thus we should not stick our heads in the sand thinking only the qualified are accepting the term of guru. Many who are well known as guru are not qualified. Those who let them slide will partake of that karma.

 

----

 

To resolve the problem the way it exists, we have to talk about it the way it exists.

•••••yes the way is false or true, fake or authentic, sadhus and bogus.... i do not understand why to discriminate (madyam adhikari) is not the first step to resolve problems.

 

----

 

Prabhupada often spoke of the importance of discrimination.

 

He did not say any level could be guru, only the most advanced.

 

----

First to understand what is safe and what is ill..... then the cure

 

-----

 

Exactly my point.

 

----

 

chant hare krsna and be happy

 

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For a debateaholic, that's an interesting quote. Try the happy part. Hey, no offese intended, just an observation I've made.

 

[yasodanandana]

He did not say any level could be guru, only the most advanced.

••••yeas i agree, i would add "only the uttama adhikari"... if there's no uttama adhikari "in the house" the most advanced bring the new devotees to uttama adhikaris to take shelter...

 

chant hare krsna and be happy

For a debateaholic, that's an interesting quote. Try the happy part. Hey, no offese intended, just an observation I've made.

•••••••yes, it is also linked to these offences (imho):

 

2) To consider the names of demigods like Lord Siva or Lord Brahmä to be equal to, or independent of, the name of Lord ViSnu

5) To consider the glories of chanting Hare Krsna to be imagination.

8) To consider the chanting of Hare Krsna as one of the auspicious ritualistic activities which are offered in the Vedas as fruitive activities (karma-kanda).

10) To not have complete faith in the chanting of the holy names and to maintain material attachments, even after understanding so many instructions on this matter.

 

so one has to be happy because he has found the most powerful only medicine for his diseases

[Guest guest]

***how do you know?you can't see the perfection

 

Guru see, I am see.

[Guest guest]

***He did not say any level could be guru, only the most advanced.

 

1st text upadesamrita. Has 3 guru - kanistha, madhyama, uttama. Real guru it is uttama, but He is reflect like kanistha and madhyama. kanistha guru think - i am uttama.