Dharmic meat eating

[Guest guest]

Is it true that meat eating is part of the Dharma of Kshatriyas (warriors), Sudras {unskilled workers} and Mlecchas {westerners)?

Are all initiated Hare-Krishnas Brahmins {priests) and hence vegetarians?

[Guest guest]

look at the room conversation in Vrndavan March 15th 1974. Varnasrama college in ISKCON, with currant members. ISKCON is not just for brahmanas. Meat eating done restrictively by Vedic injuncsion is aloud in ISKCON.

[theist]

Yes, all initiated Hare Krsna's agree to obstain from eating meat and moreover they offer all their food to Krsna before eating.

 

Most (90%)of unitiated people who make up the general congregation also abstain from eating meat.

 

But just from my own point of view not eating animals for food is not to me a religious tenent. The thought of inflicting such suffering on another living entity just so that I could taste it's body is abhorrent. I could not care less if we sudras can or cannot kill animals to eat. It is a foul practice.

 

It is bad enough we are forced by nature's laws to eat veggies. Even strict fruitarians step on insects as they approach a tree to harvest its fruit.

 

This material world, notwithstanding its emense beauty, is rightly called the place of death.

 

Prabhupada cautioned not to be proud of being a vegetarian.

[theist]

 

look at the room conversation in Vrndavan March 15th 1974. Varnasrama college in ISKCON, with currant members. ISKCON is not just for brahmanas. Meat eating done restrictively by Vedic injuncsion is aloud in ISKCON.

 

 

WHAT?!?!????

[Guest guest]

As for 4 reg's. This is not true. I never was asked to obstain, but was told to try for this standard of brahman principles. Both at Hari nama and Gayatri. At second my second class varna was given and ackowlegded by Prabhupada.

[theist]

I am unclear on what you are saying. Are you saying that at your second intiation ceremony someone told you what your varna was?

 

And if your varna was one in which meat eating was supposedly allowed you could still be officaly in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya and eat meat? And this was acknowledged somehow by Prabhupada?

 

Forgive I am very confused.

 

[Guest guest]

I was just corrected on the date of this conversation. Starts on the 12th to 17th of March 74' Varnasrama in ISKCON, all varnas and asramas are devoties. Read Feb 14, 1977 also. Also I think SB.8-1-23 or there abouts. Story of Gajendra. Natural condition.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada adimently defends Vedic meat eating in Morning Walk, March 29, 1974, Bombay

[Guest guest]

Guest, one can tell alot about you by the nature of your questions and how you respond to the answers.

 

One feels your not really interested in knowledge, but just trying to estimate an opponent.

 

Call it my feelings… I think you're insincere.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Srila Prabhupada adimently defends Vedic meat eating in Morning Walk, March 29, 1974, Bombay "

 

please make us read it

[Guest guest]

It is your free will to read or not, accept or not, the instructions for Prabhupada's ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

I did not start this thead. I am Guest 2 the responder.

[theist]

ISKCON, Prabhupada's matha was not rying to represent itself as all of Vedic history and tradition.

 

It has been a while but I have read those references and I don't recall seeing anything about Prabhupada allowing his disciples to eat meat.

 

If you think you are Prabhupada's disciple and are eatting animal flesh I must say you are in illusion on the matter.

 

It would be helpful if guests' would sing their posts in some way as to differentiate themselves.

[yasodanandana]

so please give us a link or write the conversation yourself... how can we accept without read? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Of course, I posted this. It was my last post here so far (not counting this).

 

I am sensitive to the quandry of the board's members.

 

I'll call myself "ancient paztriot" …from now on …if I can remember.

[Guest guest]

I am Tom, Hare Krsna. As for a link, that I do not have. I have books only and typing all of this conversation would be to much. Could someone with a Veda base search this and post it?

[Guest guest]

that we all know killing another living being is wrong. so why is there even a debate whether eating meat is good or bad?

i beleive that people are just looking for a reason to justify their sins...

[Priitaa]

 

look at the room conversation in Vrndavan March 15th 1974. Varnasrama college in ISKCON, with currant members. ISKCON is not just for brahmanas. Meat eating done restrictively by Vedic injuncsion is aloud in ISKCON.

 

 

There is no room conversation but there is a Morning Walk under that date and place. Is this what you meant?

 

----

 

Devotee: It seems that people are so attached to sense gratification, if we tell them we want to stop all these facilities for drinking, cinema, women, like that, they become angry.

Prabhupada: So that, that is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal, he'll be angry. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na samayati (?). Murkha, a rascal, if you give him good instruction... But give him practical. "Come here. Sit down. Take prasadam. Chant Hare Krsna. And help me by doing this." In this way you have to... Just like a child. Child does not want to go to school, but some, by... Find out some means so that he'll be induced. That is intelligence. He'll be angry, naturally. He's a rascal. He'll be angry. That is not unnatural. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na samayati (?). Just like a snake. You feed the snake with milk. It will increase the poison. That's all. Practically attract. Practically attract. That is the Hare Krsna movement will practically attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Krsna conscious plan, there will be no difficulty for all the nations, all the countries. They will be happy. So we have to educate people gradually. And by our example, living example, we'll have to attract. (pause)

Local people: (calling out in distance) Harilalji! Harilalji!

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. At least they are remembering Harilalji by seeing us. So much benefit was in that. Eh?

Gupta: When we pass, people say "Hare Krsna, Hare Rama."

Prabhupada: This is the test of Vaisnava. If one is actually Vaisnava, then by seeing him one will chant Hare Krsna. This has been created all over the world. Yes. Wherever we go, they chant Hare Krsna. Even at midnight in Athens. Yes. That we have experienced. This is the definition given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Jayadvaita: Prabhupada, if Krsna had already done all the work at Kuruksetra, so why was He so eager to have Arjuna work?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Jayadvaita: Because He'd already done the work.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayadvaita: Why did He want Arjuna to work?

Prabhupada: Just to show example, that "Don't sit idly, rascal. Work." Krsna has already done, but you must work. This is the example.

Jayadvaita: People will argue that "Why should we work? If we can make an arrangement for being idle..."

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jayadvaita: People argue that "If we can make an arrangement to be idle, then it's nice. We've worked so hard. Now we can be idle. That's nice."

Prabhupada: Then, that, if you become idle, you'll be diseased. You'll have dysentery. That's all. That will not help you. You'll have to suffer. That, that, that stage has already come. Because so many rascals are idle, now there is so many things want. So you'll suffer. If you don't work, then you'll suffer. (end)" Morning Walk, March 15, 74, Vrndavana India

 

----

 

In any case, I have never read any place where Prabhupada said meat eating is ok for US under certain Vedic restriction.

 

And meat eating is never allowed restrictively by (so called) Vedic injuncsion within ISKCON. I dont know where you are getting that from, but ask anyone who has lived in a temple. We are extremely strict about meat eating. No one can live on temple property or take initiation who eats meat, intoxication, indulges in illicit sex or gambles.

 

[theist]

Thank you, it was a nice read. Too long to post all of. Here are a couple of excerpts that are the only ones I could find that might pertain to what you are talking of.

-------------------

 

Prabhupäda: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the südras or the ksatriyas... Just like ksatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

Hådayänanda: What he kills.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are ksatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pändavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the ksatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the südras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candälas.

 

Hådayänanda: But never the cow.

 

Prabhupäda: No. Cow... The südras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Käli, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Caëòé-püjä, Durgä-püjä. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. <snip>

 

Hådayänanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupäda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnäsrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gétä and then, side by side, they learn a...

 

Prabhupäda: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hådayänanda: Yes.

 

Prabhupäda: But if some of the ksatriya or the südras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill.

 

------------------------

 

So someone being trained as a ksatriya could be allowed to go to the forest and kill some animal like a boar of tiger who is disturbing some village or something, TO LEARN HOW TO KILL MISCREANTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. He was allowed to eat what he himself killed.

 

aside Pritha, How did you copy and paste that without having to go through it and edit out all the fancy (and distracting) diacritics? I hate those things. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Guest guest]

Please read down further as Srila Prabhupada says that all are devoties in ISKCON and will be as much a part as the brahminical varna is.

There is dharmic meat eating in ISKCON. They(principled eaters) are devoties. And all initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada are not Brahmins. The conversation on the 12th is helpful too. Bk Tom

[stonehearted]

theist: How did you copy and paste that without having to go through it and edit out all the fancy (and distracting) diacritics?

 

There's a feature that copies without diacritics. Where it is depends on which version you have.

[theist]

That's good news. I'll look into it.

[Priitaa]

Thiest,

 

Thanks for pointing all that out. I was in a hurry when reading it, and did not see all that. Am glad you posted it.

 

With that said, I see Prabhupada as merely explaining how kstriyas 'were' trained, not that he wanted 'us' trained that way.

 

 

aside Pritha, How did you copy and paste that without having to go through it and edit out all the fancy (and distracting) diacritics? I hate those things.

 

 

I only have an old VedaBase - some call it a folio. Not sure what the difference is, by its an old version. Its hard to copy over in general, but not the diacritics. Matter of fact, they seem to come out quite well. So I really dont know why, but mine is a DOS version - old. And somewhat incomplete.

[Priitaa]

Thiest,

 

The previous lecture excerpt I put here came from a different date than yours did. The one you posted appears to be the right one. Here it is in its entirety. Sorry for its length, but this way devotees can read it all without anything taken out of context or misunderstood.

 

----

 

 

Morning Walk

"Varnasrama College"

--

March 14, 1974, Vrndavana

 

Prabhupada: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varnasrama college.

Satsvarupa: For the public in general?

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varnasrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.

Hrdayananda: Would it be for a particular age group?

Prabhupada: Yes, any education, from childhood. Yes. Education means from childhood. Hare Krsna. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha. The... How... We are getting so many sannyasis, they should teach. Teaching should be done by the sannyasis. Just like in missionary school, the fathers teaches.

Hrdayananda: How would it be different than gurukula?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: How would it differ from gurukula?

Prabhupada: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varnasrama school or college for further developed training.

Hrdayananda: They should... Should they be taught also some... Should there also be teaching in some particular skill or varna? Such as say...

Prabhupada: No.

Hrdayananda: Say, for example, someone was a, a ksatriya by inclination, or a...?

Prabhupada: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad... But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the so-called leaders. Therefore varnasrama college is required. Hare Krsna.

Hrdayananda: But Prabhupada, I'm still not quite clear. In other words, we'd teach, for example, like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna. Jaya. Eh?

Hrdayananda: How much would be expected of the students as far as...? Would they live with us and follow the four principles? Like that? Or just come for classes or...?

Prabhupada: Yes. Come to classes you won't get. Because nobody has got any taste for such thing. A boarding school or boarding college would...

Hrdayananda: Boarding school.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: And there should... Should there be any material subject matters taught like in gurukula?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like material subject matter, ksatriya, or the brahmanas, ksatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gita, what are the symptoms of brahmana, what is the symptoms of ksatriya. The ksatriyas should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There will be training how to kill.

Hrdayananda: Oh.

Prabhupada: Yes. And vaisyas should be trained how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.

Nitai: Not business also?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Nitai: The vaisyas?

Prabhupada: Business, this rascal business, no.

Nitai: No?

Prabhupada: Business means if you have got extra grains or extra foodstuff, you can sell where there is necessity, there is want. That is business. We are not going to open mills and factories and... No. We are not going to do that. That is sudra business. The real business is that you produce enough food grains, as much as possible, and you eat and distribute. That's all. This is business. He does not require any so high technical education. Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is the business. The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk, and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a ksatriya, work as a ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups, according to his capacity. Either as a brahmana, or as a ksatriya, or as a vaisya, or as a sudra.

Hrdayananda: What kind of training is there for a sudra?

Prabhupada: Sudra is general assistant.

Hrdayananda: Oh, just...

Prabhupada: Order-carrier. He has no intelligence. He doesn't require intelligence. "Do this." That's all.

Satsvarupa: What would he learn at the school, though?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Satsvarupa: What would his business be at that varnasrama college?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is also training, to become obedient. Because people are not obedient. What are these hippies? They are not obedient. So obedience also require training. If you have no intelligence, if you cannot do anything independently, just be obedient to the other, higher three classes. That is sudra. He must agree to abide by the orders of brahmana, ksatriyas, vaisya. That's all. So that nobody will be unemployed. Everyone should be trained up to sleep six to eight hours and attend meeting, chant, and arati. And balance--he must work hard. Not that sleeping unlimitedly. There is no limit.

Yaduvara: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yaduvara: What class does the arts and crafts come under?

Prabhupada: Eh? Sudra.

Yaduvara: Sudra.

Prabhupada: They are sudras. Little arts and crafts can be trained up to the sudras. They, at the present moment, they have given too much stress on the arts and crafts.

Yaduvara: Hm. Yes.

Prabhupada: Therefore the whole people, population, is sudra.

Hrdayananda: It is a fact.

Prabhupada: That is a... That is the difficulty. All people are being drawn by giving them, I mean to say, attraction for high salary, and they are taking so-called technical education, and all of them working in the factory. Nobody's working on the field. They are sudras. (break)

Hrdayananda: ...artist is accepted as a philosopher in life.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: In our society (break) ...accepted (break) ...as a philosopher.

Prabhupada: Artist?

Hrdayananda: Yeah, the artist.

Prabhupada: No, no. Artist is also business of the sudra.

Hrdayananda: Yes, but in our... I'm saying, in modern society in America, they are considered... (break)

Prabhupada: Nonsense philosophy. They do not know what is the meaning of philosophy.

Hrdayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: That, in your western countries the rascals, they are writing philosophy on sex life, which is known by the dog.

Hrdayananda: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: And he is writing so many things. So they are rascals. (break) ...human being. You see. What is this philosophy? Sex life? Even dog knows how to have sex life. And he's writing philosophy. So this kind of philosophy can be appreciated by the rascals and... (break) We do not appreciate that. They are not philosopher. Philosopher means who is searching out the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy.

Hrdayananda: Jaya.

Prabhupada: That is philosophy. Darsana. Darsana means search out what is the ultimate. Jnani ca bharatarsabha. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna, arto 'rtharthi jnani ca bharatarsabha, arto 'rtharthi jijnasur jnani ca bharatarsabha. These are philosophers. Even the artah, even a distressed person, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "My God, I am very much hungry. Kindly give me my daily bread." He's also philosopher, because he's searching out the Absolute Truth. He's philosopher. Not this Freud rascal, elaborating how to have sex life. So this kind of philosopher, they... What is called? In Bengali: vane haye srgala raja.(?) "In the jungle a jackal becomes a king." So because western people, they have no... They're all less than sudras. So a Freud has become a philosopher. Vane haye srgala raja. "In the jungle, the jackal has become a king." That's all. What is knowledge there? It is that... The whole western world is going on for industry, for making money, eat, drink, be merry, wine and women. That's... They're all less than sudras and candalas. This is the first time attempt is being made to make them human beings. Don't mind. I am using very strong words. That is the fact.

Hrdayananda: It's true. Yes.

Prabhupada: Otherwise, they are little animals with four hand, two legs, two hand, hand animals. That's all. Yes. Rejected them. Vedic civilization rejected them, mlecchas and yavanas. But they can be reformed. The process is the same. Not that because they are rejected, they cannot be reclaimed. They can be reclaimed also. Just like you are being done. Although you are coming from the mlecchas and yavanas, by training, you are becoming more than a brahmana. So there is no bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say, "No more illicit sex," oh, they become angry. As soon as I say, "There is no meat-eating," they become angry. Murkhayopadeso hi prakopayati na samayati (?). The rascals, fools, if you give them good lessons, education, they will be angry. Prakopayati na samayati. Payah panam bhujanganam (?). The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result will be he will increase his poison. Payah panam bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam. But Krsna's grace, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's grace, they are being now trained up. Now you be trained up and revise the whole edition of the western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is the program. Therefore varnasrama school required.

Hrdayananda: So Prabhupada, in this varnasrama college, is it true that there will be no need, for example, for teaching material history and mathematics and...?

Prabhupada: No, there is no need. History, we simply read Mahabharata, history of the great men, Pandavas, how they were fighting for the good cause, how they were reigning. That history. Not this rascal history. If you study that history millions of years, what is that history and what you'll learn from that history? You learn history of the really great men, how they worked, how they ruled. That is a... You study history of Maharaja Yudhisthira.

Hrdayananda: Mahabharata.

Prabhupada: Study the history of Maharaja Pariksit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record, all nonsense, and big, big books, and making research. Why should you waste your time in that way?

Hrdayananda: Jaya. Yes. And so...

Prabhupada: Hm? History must be for great person. This is history.

Hrdayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the ksatriyas... Just like ksatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hrdayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are ksatriyas, they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the ksatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Hrdayananda: But never the cow.

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life--marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.

Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college.

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education--sudra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class.

Hrdayananda: Would the brahmanas learn Sanskrit?

Prabhupada: Eh? Not necessarily.

Hrdayananda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

Prabhupada: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

Hrdayananda: Not necessary. So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna and asr... Learning a materia...

Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly in order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is later on.

Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no question of unemployment.

Hrdayananda: But from the very beginning there should be taught Bhagavad-gita and...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varnasrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Krsna conscious men, we are above varnasrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varna and asrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He, he was perfect Vaisnava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaisnava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yaksas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yaksa-raja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yaksas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Krsna. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yaksa-raja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Krsna." This is Vaisnava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Krsna. Similarly, even if we take to varnasrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Krsna says, maya srstam. "I have inaugurated." But Krsna has nothing to do with varnasrama. Similarly, if we act as varnasrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varnasrama.

Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, can you say something about the training for a brahmana.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are satyam samah damah. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... samo damah,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyam samo damah saucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Krsna. This is brahmana.

Hrdayananda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?

Prabhupada: They'll be teaching. They'll be all teachers.

Hrdayananda: Oh, they'll be teachers.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Dronacarya. He was brahmana, but he was teaching military art to the Pandavas. General teacher class will be the brahmanas. It doesn't matter what he's teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to Dronacarya. He learned it from Dronacarya. He was a brahmana. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brahmana should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he'll become teacher. This is brahmana.

Hrdayananda: So brahmana can teach how to fight?

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmana means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.

Satsvarupa: This is all very new.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Satsvarupa: This is very new. It seems there'll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.

Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?

Satsvarupa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though.

Prabhupada: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor.

Satsvarupa: Then it becomes easy.

Prabhupada: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

Hrdayananda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varnasrama, say, the first teacher at the varnasrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...

Prabhupada: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varnasrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

Visnujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brahmanas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Visnujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's right. He is brahmana, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.

Hrdayananda: It's not that one teacher has to teach everything.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hrdayananda: Oh, I see. So a brahmana teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: Oh. It's very exciting, Prabhupada, because all the, at the present time in the...

Prabhupada: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are sudras or less than sudras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn't matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society's already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they're only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they'll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Krsna conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.

Visnujana: Preliminary.

Prabhupada: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion. Otherwise, how the brain will work?

Visnujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Krsna consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they'll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Krsna consciousness. And this is the method--varnasrama.

Hrdayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general--you've made some exceptions--but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hrdayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: But if some of the ksatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the ksatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

Yaduvara: How would the ksatriyas kill the animals?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the ksatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men.

Visnujana: So we should perpetuate this technical skill of...

Prabhupada: No. We are not going to... But if somebody's interested doing, so we take it, make the best use of it.

Visnujana: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: Just like we do not want money. But they are having money by so many ways. So we take their money and construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Krsna. We don't require that temple. But these rascals are accumulating money for wine and women. Take their money, some way or other, and builds a temple. And invite them, "Come and see." Give them prasadam. This is our policy. We are not constructing big, big buildings and temples for our convenience. For their convenience. This is sannyasi.

Visnujana: So there should always be programs in the temples for their welfare, not...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Visnujana: ...that we live there and...

Prabhupada: No. But we are taking it, "Now we have got very nice house, room. Let us sleep and eat."

Visnujana: Then there'll be wide criticism.

Prabhupada: That is... This is not good.

Hrdayananda: Prabhupada...

Prabhupada: You should remain always sannyasi within. Outwardly, for others' convenience, you may do something. Similarly, we are accepting this varnasrama. We are not varnasrama; we are above varnasrama. But to give others facility to come to the stage of Krsna consciousness, this program must be done.

Hrdayananda: Prabhupada, generally in colleges in the West, they charge some fee for going to the college. What is our position?

Prabhupada: No, we don't charge any fee. There is no question of money. Because the brahmanas, they'll teach free. They require money because they have to give fat salary to these rascals. But we haven't got to. And even we have to feed them, we produce our own grain. So where is the question of taking money? So therefore it is required, somebody must produce food. Then there is no necessity of money.

Hrdayananda: The vaisya students will produce the food.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: Should our children who are at gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to that varnasrama college, or...?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. They should go.

Hrdayananda: We'll start it right away.

Prabhupada: Varnasrama college means for grown-up students. College means for grown-up students.

Hrdayananda: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a college?

Prabhupada: Yes. Ten to twelve years.

Hrdayananda: They can start at ten to twelve?

Prabhupada: Yes. From five to ten years, gurukula. And after ten years, they should go to the varnasrama college.

Visnujana: New Vrindaban would be an ideal place in America for such a school.

Prabhupada: Yes. Organize that.

Visnujana: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. I shall go.

Visnujana: This Maharaja is also going to New Vrindaban.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Visnujana: He can...

Prabhupada: Do that. Kirtanananda Maharaja, you, and combined together, do that.

Visnujana: Yes.

Prabhupada: We have got so many duties to do. Don't waste time, a single moment. And don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work.

Visnujana: And this is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure of...?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Visnujana: This is the most auspicious work for now, is this remedial measure to stop the chaos in the world?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Visnujana: That's most auspicious.

Prabhupada: Most auspicious. Because if the people are in chaos, how they'll be able to accept the great philosophy? It requires cool brain.

Visnujana: For example, in my program...

Prabhupada: Budhah. Budhah. Eh? Yes?

Visnujana: My program now is I have ten brahmacaris in buses, and everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how they will be able to accept the knowledge in the books?

Prabhupada: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Some of them. Not that all of them. Hare Krsna (break) ...in separate department.

Passer-by: Radhe, Radhe!

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Just see. Due to the past training, even an ordinary man, he's chanting, "Radhe, Radhe."

Visnujana: When we had our boat, the boatmen every morning were...

Prabhupada: This is India.

Visnujana: ...worshiping...

Prabhupada: Because, due to past culture, even the lowest class of men, he's also great philosopher than these rascals in western countries.

Hrdayananda: So all the other programs should be continued, and this program should be added.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Parivrajakacarya: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Parivrajakacarya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...?

Prabhupada: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varnasrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position.

Parivrajakacarya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees.

Prabhupada: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul.

Satsvarupa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaisya or...

Prabhupada: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopis, even up to the point of becoming prostitute--for Krsna. So for Krsna's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Krsna we have to do that.

Hrdayananda: So, Prabhupada, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...?

Prabhupada: They should be engaged.

Hrdayananda: Should they be trained in a particular...?

Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture.

Hrdayananda: Those who cannot preach.

Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as ksatriya or vaisya, or as sudra.

Hrdayananda: And sometimes...

Prabhupada: :Not he's sudra. Always remember that. But he has to act to fulfill the, fill up the gap. Proxy.

Hrdayananda: So we should encourage people, young people, young students to come to our college.

Prabhupada: They'll automatically come if you are ideal. Because they are being forced to poverty. So when there is a question of poverty, they'll come.

Hrdayananda: Room and board and training.

Prabhupada: Yes. This poverty. Why there is poverty? Because they are not producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life. So-called education. Sitting idle in the table and chair, and talking all gossips, nonsense, and sleeping. They have been trained up in this way, sudra.

Hrdayananda: So they should be trained to rise early and so on.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, if you keep healthy, then you will naturally rise healthy, er rise early in the morning. But if you... Because you have lost all, what is called? Stamina?

Hrdayananda: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: Therefore sleeping is my only business. Sleeping means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man sleeps too much, he's weak in his health. And the strong man will perspire. These are very... Balera ghama, and the durbalera ghuma. Ghama and ghuma. Ghuma means sleeping, and ghama means perspiration. (break) ...principle. And human beings means trained up under principle. That is the difference between animal. The animals, they cannot take up any training. But the human being, this human form of body is meant for taking training. So if they are not properly trained up, they remain animals and the whole society in chaos and confusion. That's all. (break) ...moment, the human society's so degraded that even we are walking, this is also risky. This is also... Gradually, it is becoming. Just like in our New York... That Berkeley? Berkeley? No. Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk due to the Negroes. They immediately: "Whatever you have got, give me." There are so many incidents. In such city as New York there is always danger like that. If somebody kills you, nobody will take care of you. The human society has become... And in India still, they are not so degraded. You see. Even at night you can safely walk on the street. But in Europe, America, you cannot with confidence walk alone in the big, big streets. So human being has become so degraded. Less than animals. They can attack you. Just like in the forest any ferocious animal can attack you at any minute. The whole big, big cities have become like that. (break) ...example that they have started that United Nations. What they have done actually? United Nations. Eh?

Hrdayananda: Nothing.

Prabhupada: Have they done anything progressive?

Hrdayananda: No.

Prabhupada: So? Big, big advertising, "United Nations." All nations, you... Because all the cats and dogs united. What they can do? If the all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a formula, will they be able? (laughter) So actually, this is the proof. They're all cats and dogs. What do they know how to unite, how to live in peace. They do not know even. Because they're animal, cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What they have done? Am I right or wrong?

Hrdayananda: Right.

Prabhupada: Yes. So study this institution.

Visnujana: Thirty years now.

Prabhupada: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big, big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimudhan, humbug program, and no result. Prahlada Maharaja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was spoken by Prahlada Maharaja to Nrsimhadeva. Soce tato vimukha-cetasa maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan. (break) ...business has become like Prahlada Maharaja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Krsna will provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Krsna conscious, but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. (break) ...devotee, personally, he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be able to come to Krsna consciousness. (break) ...it will be good for you because Krsna will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for me." Your service will be recognized by Krsna. Don't think that because you are teaching a sudra how to work like this, you have become a sudra. You are not sudras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a sudra how to work like a sudra. (break) ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear?

Satsvarupa: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Visnujana: One good example in New Vrindaban, they're actually doing that. They're training ksatriyas, they're training...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning...

Visnujana: ...vaisyas...

Prabhupada: I started the New Vrindaban scheme on this formula.

Visnujana: Kirtanananda Swami has carried it out just as you have desired.

Parivrajakacarya: So in a sense, New Vrindaban is already...

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. The starting is already there.

Visnujana: They even have a court system now. They started it when I was there last time. They have so many members that sometimes someone may commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type of system where he comes before a board of members, older members.

Prabhupada: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board. That's nice. And it will be accepted even by the court. Here, in India, there is such system. A board of five, ten men in the village, if there is some fight between two parties, whatever the board will decide that will be accepted in the court. Pancayeta. It is called pancayeta system. (break) ...tion. You join. There will be no scarcity. This will engage people. Some are, some of them will be engaged to produce food. Where is the question of scarcity? There is food, there is milk. Eat and drink and be human beings.

Visnujana: When we first go to open a temple in a city we get an apartment or a storefront. But then, when more and more people come, then we should get land and cows and everything and...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Visnujana: ...and turn it into a society.

Hrdayananda: Ah, that's wonderful.

Satsvarupa: Many times our devotees get cheated in business dealings by inexperience. So should they learn from...

Prabhupada: How to cheat others. (laughter)

Satsvarupa: No, not how to cheat, but from experienced devotees how to not be cheated?

Prabhupada: Why should you go to a person who cheats you? (end)

 

Conversations 740315mw.vrn

 

 

[Priitaa]

 

Please read down further as Srila Prabhupada says that all are devoties in ISKCON and will be as much a part as the brahminical varna is.

There is dharmic meat eating in ISKCON. They(principled eaters) are devoties. And all initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada are not Brahmins. The conversation on the 12th is helpful too. Bk Tom

 

 

Of course not all of Prabhupada's initiated disciples are brahmanas. All of Prabhupada's initiated disciples are Vaisnava's. Brahmana is just a material designation. I just heard Prabhupada say that himself in a class on MP3.

 

In the lecture you stressed, Prabhupada is speaking about VAD (varnashrama dharma) which is not transcendental Krishna consciousness. It can be used as a stepping stone for those who wish to go that route, but its not the highest, not the same as his preachings on cent per cent Krishna conscioiusness.