Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Prabhupada: So that, that is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal, he'll be angry. I like this quote, it sounds very funny /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Here is Srila Prabhupada's handwritten instructions to all initiated disciples. Please note that they are required to abstain from eating meat, as well as many other things. http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/download.php?Number=66833 Srila Prabhupada's instructions on this matter are crystal clear in all of his books. We don't need an obscure off topic conversation to try to establish something he never taught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 The spiritual masters words are never off topic or obscure to his sincere followers. A newer instruction will supersede and-or suppliment an older one. Could someone post the conversation that takes place Feb 14 1977? Srila Prabhupada deffeats all counter arguments. Sudra same as brahmana, all are preaching to their capacity. Varasrama in ISKCON is transendental. Could the purport from the SB. 8th canto, 2nd chapter, verse 30 also be shown or I mean poster? BK. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 please.. tell also what do you want to demonstrate at the end of all these citations... someone can eat meat? you can eat meat? in certain days with certain ceremonies we can eat it? what's your theory? (varnasrama is transcendental in the sense that gradually leads to religion and next to the devotion, but in itself it is not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Since you have yet to post any evidence to support your view, we will not allow this discussion to continue as it is going (simply based on your word). Either post the evidence for discussion, or this thread will be closed. Both at Hari nama and Gayatri. At second my second class varna was given and ackowlegded by Prabhupada. You imply that you were initiated by Srila Prabhupada, yet you identify yourself as Bhakta Tom. Something is certainly fishy with regards to your story and presentation. You go on to make absurd statements about ISKCON allowing meat eating according to "Vedic principles", when this is certainly not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I have no ajenda or theory of my own. The topic was started, I gave reference from Prabhupada. I did not change anything or give my own worthless opinion. Anythink used for Krsna's service becomes surcharged with spiritual energy. So VAD among ISKCON's members becomes a trancendental activity or tool to help made the way easier. Read Feb 14 1977 room conversation. SB. 8.2.30 purport. Bk Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 There was only myself and Pusta Krsna Swami in the room with Srila Prabhupada at that time. He left within a week or so after. The rest of the evidence is in my heart. The thead started as dharmic meat eating, not my varna. Much evedence supporting VAD in ISKCON is there for the inquisitive aspirant, as has been posted already. SB. 8.2.30, conversations on March 14 1974, Feb 14 1977. Letter to Tarun May or so 74 explaining that ISKCON was undergoing division by varna and not that everyone was brahman, be careful who he(Tarun) recomends for initiation Actually I am on topic, but you are the boss of this forum. Obviously BK Tom is an internet persona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 i would have understood better : "in IskCon we are not doing this and that, but prabhupada said that they have to be done in morning walk etc etc. but for me it is ok... dandavats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 "must be strictly vegetarian" Up that point of commitment we may be indulging in so many bad habits, but eventually they must be given up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Everyone who has posted has explained to you that you are wrong, but you try to deflect it by then implying the conversation you are refering to was on another date, then in a purport to SB canto 8. chapter 2, verse 30. Then finaly in a private conversation: "There was only myself and Pusta Krsna Swami in the room with Srila Prabhupada at that time. He left within a week or so after. The rest of the evidence is in my heart." I'm reposting part of what theist put up from the conversation dates you gave and the SB link to the purport you say backs your claim that initiated devotees in Iskcon can eat meat if that is their varna. As far as you saying you were in a private conversation (which you bring up only after the morning walk references etc you gave, show no such confirmation that Prabhupada sanctioned such things) I doubt anyone will believe such statements. You are coming across as some one who is just very confused. From post by theist: -------------------------- Prabhupäda: so if the ksatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the südras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candälas. Hådayänanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupäda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnäsrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gétä and then, side by side, they learn a... Prabhupäda: Four regulative principles compulsory. Hådayänanda: Yes. Prabhupäda: But if some of the ksatriya or the südras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. -------------------------- Srimad Bhag. purport: http://srimadbhagavatam.com/8/2/30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 You have posted the conversational reference nicely but then say Prabhupada has not sanctioned. I beg to disagree. "Prabhupäda: But if some of the ksatriya or the südras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill." Seems very clearly spoken by Guru in accordance with sastra. As for my personal experiance with Srila Prabhupada, fact is fact and relies on no extraneous outsiders faith to be so. Besides, the emphasis is ment to be on the conversations and not necessarally my experiences with guru. Prabhupada in the same conversation uses Bhima as an example of Ksatriyas eating meat. Is he not a pure devotee and intimate friend of Krsna? Is he not Vaisnava? This is Prabhupada's example and words not my so-called confusion. I have it right whether others(general cadre) agree or not is irrelivent to the fact that Prabhupada says there is concesion. BK Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Parivrajakacarya: Would the...? The persons who would take part in such program, they would have to be devotees in the first place. Is that...? Prabhupada: Devotees is... I have already explained. We are all devotees. Past condition, we are all devotees. We are not, we do not belong to this varnasrama. I have already told you. Suppose I am mopping. So that does not mean I am mopper. But I am teaching how to mop. This is our position. Parivrajakacarya: So the students, also, they must all be devotees. Prabhupada: Yes. Devotees are... That is our life and soul. Satsvarupa: And the idea is that after they've finished their schooling, they would take part in ISKCON, preaching in some way as vaisya or... Prabhupada: Yes. This preaching is also required, to make the groundwork. Because nobody's taking care. Just like some of the devotees, great devotees, they took the profession of becoming thief. They, in South India, it was done so. They took the profession of becoming thief. So a devotee is a thief? But he took. They took it. Because nobody was paying. So they organized a plundering party. "Plunder all these big men." Just like the politicians do. There is history. Yes. So even up to the point to become a thief, devotees took it. Yes. And the gopis, even up to the point of becoming prostitute--for Krsna. So for Krsna's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business. Or on the highest grade. Anything. But for Krsna we have to do that. Hrdayananda: So, Prabhupada, in our temples, we have so many devotees. Should the devotees...? Prabhupada: They should be engaged. Hrdayananda: Should they be trained in a particular...? Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must go to the plough department, agriculture. Hrdayananda: Those who cannot preach. Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in preaching, they must be acting as ksatriya or vaisya, or as sudra. I may be mistaken about a great deal of things but I am sure I read this right, that they will all be devotees. If someone wants to point out from this conversation my error I would be glade to reconcile. BK Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 You said: "Prabhupada in the same conversation uses Bhima as an example of Ksatriyas eating meat. Is he not a pure devotee and intimate friend of Krsna? Is he not Vaisnava? This is Prabhupada's example and words not my so-called confusion. I have it right whether others(general cadre) agree or not is irrelivent to the fact that Prabhupada says there is concesion." -------------------------- my reply: Yes, there was concession in vedic times for meat eating by Kashtriyas (who killed to practice there skill to protect society). And then Prabhupada says they ate only what they killed with their own hands. Prabhupada: So someone being trained as a ksatriya could be allowed to go to the forest and kill some animal like a boar of tiger who is disturbing some village or something, TO LEARN HOW TO KILL MISCREANTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. He was allowed to eat what he himself killed. -------------------------- But for even the varnashram college, which was to be a stepping stone to Iskcon, prabhupada said (as shown twice before): "four regulative principle compulsory" Hådayänanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupäda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnäsrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gétä and then, side by side, they learn a... Prabhupäda: Four regulative principles compulsory. -------------------------- So even for the varnäsrama college, four regulative principle were to be compulsory. What to speak of for those who went on to become initated. So if Prabhupada said that even those who in the future might attend a varnäsrama college had to folow the four regulative principles, it is not possible that you were given first and second initiation and was "never asked to obstain" as you said in your post i have put below. -------------------------- "As for 4 reg's. This is not true. I never was asked to obstain, but was told to try for this standard of brahman principles. Both at Hari nama and Gayatri. At second my second class varna was given and ackowlegded by Prabhupada." -------------------------- Next you'll be forming a group of like minded meat eating devotees and calling yourselves MEVA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 exactly what is the point you are trying to make. It is hard to respond to such vaugery. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 He is saying it is alright to eat meat because Bhima did in the past and prabhupada makes concessions for meat eating in Iskcon according to ones nature. Get ready for MEVA (Meat Eating Vaishnava Association) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Prabhupäda: But if some of the ksatriya or the südras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. To omit this contrivercial statement is childish on the other Guest's part. The point was to respond to the topic starter, from the direction gave for ISKCON to take in 74. Completely verifiable by Guru and sastra. That we all faint is a forgone conclusion and there by the reason to discuss and clearify. Not to reject out of our own inabilities to surrender to the Guru's leadership. There are no counterdictions, only compliance by understanding time, place, circumstance and application. BK Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 So when you eat meat, (because you say you were told at your first and second initiation, that your varna was second class and you did not have to abstain),.....do you go to the forest and kill some animal to practice your ksatriya skills of killing in case you need to protect society, and eat it? Or do you go to some grocery store and pick out what you want?...........I know, in this day and age, it's not practical to go to the forest to hunt, so you're sure that if Prabhupada was preaching today he would adjust things to fit time and circumstances and say it's alright, now, just to go to the local grocery and get the meat you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 my reply: Yes, there was concession in vedic times for meat eating by Kashtriyas (who killed to practice there skill to protect society). And then Prabhupada says they ate only what they killed with their own hands. It is clearly stated that we do now in ISKCON, 1974. But for even the varnashram college, which was to be a stepping stone to Iskcon, prabhupada said (as shown twice before): "four regulative principle compulsory" ISKCON is a VAD movement. And this below is the part you do not acknowledge. Prabhupada: But if some of the ksatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the ksatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing. Yaduvara: How would the ksatriyas kill the animals? Prabhupada: Eh? Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow? Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the ksatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, "Oh, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?" Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That's all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men. Concidering that Prabhupada accepts the use of present day weapons as a tool for the Ksatriya, this must indicate now, 1974. So if Prabhupada said that even those who in the future might attend a varnäsrama college had to folow the four regulative principles, it is not possible that you were given first and second initiation and was "never asked to obstain" as you said in your post i have put below. The future is now me. I came at the time of this conversation, summer of 74. You havn't read this conversation well at all. 74 was when this VAD was supposed to start in and funtion as ISKCON. As for my experience with Srila Prabhupada. It is not about you or what you believe, this personal instruction is for me and I do not depend on your recognition for my faith. Srila Prabhupada is independant from your conclusions too. BK Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 And kill in season bear, boar and deer. I have tried eating the boar once, but was unatracted. Never from slaughterhouse. I also cremated one bear in Canada. BK Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 ""Prabhupäda: But if some of the ksatriya or the südras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill." Seems very clearly spoken by Guru in accordance with sastra. As for my personal experiance with Srila Prabhupada, fact is fact and relies on no extraneous outsiders faith to be so." ––––––––––––––– ••••no problem, if one is a ksatrya and a vaishnava with the same qualities of bhima, in the same times, places and circumstances.. he can do everything that bhima does... including killing and eating some dangerous beasts otherwise.. regulative principles.. no difficulty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Or Narada Muni? Then how can you demand that I be equal to Bhima before engaging as a ksatriya? All in good time, but we must start at the beginning, then progress. Through determination and persiverance. Typical smarta Brahman responce, another foolishness. By concideration of eternal time, you just quit eating from a slaughterhouse yourself, but you demand Bhima? Gradual progress by continued practice. No problem. BK Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I posted: So when you eat meat, (because you say you were told at your first and second initiation, that your varna was second class and you did not have to abstain),.....do you go to the forest and kill some animal to practice your ksatriya skills of killing in case you need to protect society, and eat it? Or do you go to some grocery store and pick out what you want?...........I know, in this day and age, it's not practical to go to the forest to hunt, so you're sure that if Prabhupada was preaching today he would adjust things to fit time and circumstances and say it's alright, now, just to go to the local grocery and get the meat you need -------------------------- From what i got from your reply which was the following in part: "Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow? Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the ksatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street" -------------------------- So i take that you mean that since killing no longer has to be done by bow and arrow, but by guns, or other modern means, that gives you license to eat meat not that you have killed by hunting to practice your ksatriya skills, but to eat meat you have bought at the local grocery store. You are really going to a streach to justify your tendency to eat meat. I still say you are a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 where comes from that idea that you are a ksatrya? are you in the school of a pure ksatrya master from a parampara'? have you a designation by a pure brahmin? under wich pure devotee king are you serving? are you practising hunting to learn fighting to protect humans, saints, sadhus by demons and asuras or it is for your sense gratification? please answer ..... and continue chanting your japa rounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Are you Brhaspati? Or Narada Muni? •••••i am a worm swimming happily in the stool.. for this reason i have no fantasies to be a brahmana and simply i try to follow the simple and plain instructions given by prabhupada and my spiritual master... so abandon the fantasies, krsna consciousness is science nor fantasy.. or, if you like to eat meat, eat it, chant hare krishna (it is your constitutional right even if you are a cannibal) after washing your hands and mouth....... but do not concoct your own religion.. this could be worst than eating meat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 MEVA LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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