same ? again

[ancient_paztriot]

…I can't do when I decide "I can't do".

[Priitaa]

 

Priitaa, if you can do that then tell me more.

 

 

It is not that I need to tell you, you all ready know. Or, that it is Prabhuapda who tells you, and can tell you every day by reading his books, listening to his lectures, hearing him sing, etc. I will admit, living in the brahmacarini ashrama nearly two years and then spending nearly the rest of my devotional life so far on temple property or very close, has helped me remain somewhat strong. At least when I am not blocked by others, I really am not so likely to block myself, or not majorly. Which does not mean I dont have anarthas. lol I sure do, but I have faith if we follow Prabhupadas program, we will achieve the goal. I have no doubts there. There is no mystery how to do it. Prabhupada made the process very clear. The problem is whether we choose to follow or choose not to follow.

 

 

Theoretically perfect I think. Yet, what if the government just decides to send you to a concentration camp because of your beliefs… that happened because the masses thought it was someone elses responsibility?

 

If the kali-yuga leaders are left to dominate and exploit without any accountability…

 

 

I am not saying to stick our heads in the sand politically, but really, we don't need as much involvement in it. Its mostly our sense gradification and I admit I do enjoy it. Which is why I recognize it for what it is. But short from being sent off to a concentration camp, we really need to understand that all these things go wrong not due to ignorance of politics, but due to ignorance of Krishna. Prabhupada does not give us a process that is not practical or responsible. It works, if we believe it works, and therefore do it as he said to do it.

 

I also wish to add, I remember when Prabhupada told us there was going to be WWIII, for certain. Then he had us all go out on HariNama, and two times he said we put a stop to WWIII. So not to think because we are becoming Krishna conscious we are not helping out politically. It automatically takes care of it.

[lover_soul]

I am with you man, the only way we can change anything here is if we ourselves first change, I just wanted to reply to you. Now, as the devotee behind the ancient paztriot has dismissed himself thus dismissing me from his discussion, I will shut up.

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

I am not saying to stick our heads in the sand politically, but really, we don't need as much involvement in it."

 

Wrong. It happened with ISKCON… people feeling they cannot change authority. It's happening now with the American government. It happens in the workplace everytday. Eternal vigilance is the price for freedom. You said this in different words.

 

You have an opinion. It may not be fact. (Neither is mine necessarily.)

 

 

"Its mostly our sense gradification and I admit I do enjoy it."

 

It is much more. It is lifestyle. It is opportunity. It is having the time and interest to pursue spiritual life. You think you are taking care of things by seeing to yourself… just like the German Jews? You may be in the same denial.

 

"But short from being sent off to a concentration camp, we really need to understand that all these things go wrong not due to ignorance of politics, but due to ignorance of Krishna."

 

Yes, this is Vedic knowledge is the only hope. When people know this, so many other misgivings are automatically rectified.

 

"I also wish to add, I remember when Prabhupada told us there was going to be WWIII, for certain. Then he had us all go out on HariNama, and two times he said we put a stop to WWIII. So not to think because we are becoming Krishna conscious we are not helping out politically. It automatically takes care of it. "

 

Times change. We have to see time and circumstances. Things have deteriorated in ISKCON and the world stage since then.

 

[theist]

I haven't really been very clear on trying to explain my position. I am not seeing this as political vs. spiritual action. I see it as a form of preaching. The debate is going to go own regardless of our presence or not. But especially with the internet we have a chance to inject into and steer the conversation towards the soul.

 

Pariksit said only a cow killer cannot understand the Personality of Godhead (paraphrased). So on that basis can't we all take issue with the animal killers? Becoming vegetarian is certainly not enough but nor does it make sense to try and explain rasa-lila to a meat eatter.

 

Actually I am most interested in trying to get people to recognize the same spiritual nature in every other living thing. Not speaking about that is not an option. In fact I don't see how you can talk about Krsna consciousness without it.

[ancient_paztriot]

Change can come about in many ways.

 

I don't see the karmis or worldly men endeavoring for self-realization to affect change.

 

You do not know necessarily know one's sincerity for serviing Krsna, nor do you know what Krsna thinks of that relationship and motive of the individual.

 

Nor do you really know the likelihood of success.

 

The future is not very predictable in this context. But that doesn't stop your prophecy.

 

Bluff on.

[Priitaa]

 

Wrong. It happened with ISKCON… people feeling they cannot change authority. It's happening now with the American government. It happens in the workplace everytday. Eternal vigilance is the price for freedom. You said this in different words.

 

 

We were not talking about ISKCON politics, we were talking about regular politics. ISKCON is an entire different topic, so you are changing the subject and I really did not want to.

 

 

 

It is much more. It is lifestyle. It is opportunity. It is having the time and interest to pursue spiritual life. You think you are taking care of things by seeing to yourself… just like the German Jews.

 

 

You dont know what I think, and its not that. I do not think such selfish thoughts. What I do think is that we should all preach and share Krishna consciousness instead of politics. If we are preaching, all else WILL fall into place.

 

Its having the time to dedicate ourselves 100% to Srila Prabhuapada renounce any worldly ideals that we think won't change without us.

 

 

 

Yes, this is Vedic knowledge is the only hope. When people know this, so many other misgivings are automatically rectified.

 

 

 

And they will only know it if we start preaching.

 

 

Times change. We have to see time and circumstances. Things have deteriorated in ISKCON and the world stage since then.

 

 

I certainly hope you are not one of those who believes times have changed since Prabhupada gave instructions and that his instructoins no longer apply, or not unless we modify them according to the times. This is a bunch of hooey and does not get any support from any Vedic literature anywhere. Prabhupada was not backwards or old fashioned, rather his instructions are timeless. We should not think we are so great that our problems of our age have never happened before and are therefore not to be found within Krisnas Vedic literatures or Srila Prabhupadas explanations. HariNama worked then, it will work now. Simply we prefer politics. As I said, its a form of sense gratification we dont want to admit is not needed if only we would get more serious about our Krishna consciousness. I am not saying this about you, but myself included. I like politics. I was against the Viet Nam war, I can't stand Bush and this war, I know all too much about it, but I recongize this for what it is and dont try to tell myself I am being responsible. If anything, I think we are more responsible when we get more involved in spiriutal life, which is not a selfish thing, as everyone benefits. We must preach if we want anything to really change. Otherwise its like blowing on a bonfire. It will never go out. lol

[AncientMariner]

 

 

 

 

That politics is for men who are in the modes of passion and ignorance and that devotees have practically no business in politics?

[ancient_paztriot]

People are not getting the word. The world is going to hell.

 

Time is running out! That is what I see. Your assurances I take to be simply sentiment.

 

You simply went off on a tangent concerning Prabhupada's instructions.

[Priitaa]

Thiest,

 

I too did not view this as political vs. spiritual action, but as a form of preaching. This is where Prabhupada kept the focus, as you know.

 

I also use the internet for preaching and my newsletter. What a blessing. Even tho I am stuck at home, I can reach others and tell them about Krishna!

 

Regarding clones, if you want or feel a need to use it as a preaching tool, I see no problem with that. I suppose I dont understand why you dont find the answers given as sufficient. Or maybe by now you do.

[Priitaa]

Ok patriot, come clean. When did you fully surrender and move in a temple that you can be putting down loversoul and mariner, turning thiests spiriutal point into a political one, and I'm getting ready for you to do similar to myself. Therefore please prove you are qualified to be instructing and chastizing all of us. Have you shaved up, chant 16 rounds daily, follow all four of the regulative principles, rise early and preform a morning program at any point in your life, and for how long? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but if you are going to give a hard time to everyone who does not agree with you or see your words as absolute truth, then you will need to come forward with your spiriutal qualifications. Some of the deovtees here are senior to you, and it appears you are not showing them that respect.

[AncientMariner]

 

 

The people get the political leaders they deserve. The population in the Kali-yuga is not at all interested in liberation and Krishna they are only interested in their sense gratification. So in a society of cheaters, for the cheaters and by the cheaters the public gets cheated by their political leaders. You are correct that the only remedy is preaching Krishna Consciousness but if they ignore you they are not gentlemen anyway and they will be punished by the laws of material nature. For the most part people have chosen to ignore Prabhupada and the Earth is still in a severly chaotic condition.

[AncientMariner]

 

 

the fallen people of the Kali-yuga to become Krishna conscious.

[ancient_paztriot]

Same tactic as lover–soul. Solve your problems by making it my problem.

 

First, I had nothing to do with Theists post.

 

Secondly, you are now challenging me as to my purity and worth by how much I perform rituals, what my credentials are and/or what my influence is.

 

I am intimidated on all points. I guess that makes you right.

[ancient_paztriot]

I believe as Priitaa and you that this Prabhupada preaching is the only hope. It is the only workable process.

 

We made the change. So can others. Prabhupada also challenged why we are keeping potential devotees waiting.

 

Does anyone believe we are fulfilling Prabhupada's mission?

[AncientMariner]

 

 

 

said something about another Guru coming after him, maybe we will get divine intervention or something because that is what is needed at this point. Just pure speculation on my part however so don't quote me on it.

[theist]

 

Regarding clones, if you want or feel a need to use it as a preaching tool, I see no problem with that. I suppose I dont understand why you dont find the answers given as sufficient. Or maybe by now you do.

 

 

Priitaa,

 

What I need to do is find my own level of spreading Krsna consciousness. I am personally not stable enough in my own practice to preach straight sadhana-bhakti. So I limit my conversations to topics that are a little below that. I certainly don't think my approach should be adopted by others. Some are very philosophical and learned in different schools of vedanta. I am not. So I should not try to go into those waters.

 

But I am finding that Krsna consciousness fits everywhere. Basic realization of Brahman solves so many problems. People squabble over racism. The cure is in the gita so if we can draw the debate towards the gita someone may find not only the cure for racism but all other problem as well. Someone may go all the way.

 

The interest is already in the things of the world. So we can just inject some KC into the midst of debates already flourishing.

 

On the clones, mostly I just wanted to raise the question. I can't believe devotees with scientific knowledge aren't already out in front on this. I could read the perfect answer and still not recognize it.

 

But people are raising these questions and I just think we should have the answers.

 

I still am hoping that BI opens up an internet Q&A forum for us lay folks.

 

Hare Krsna

[Avinash]

When is the exact moment the soul enters a clone?

 

When is the exact moment soul enters any being? I think that we should write the answer to this question here precisely. Then, by comparison, we can think over when soul enters a clone.

[Priitaa]

 

Same tactic as lover–soul. Solve your problems by making it my problem.

 

 

And you're saying this is suppsoe to make it so. Sorry to disappoint you but I am not using any tactics nor making my problems yours. I have no problems on these points. lol I take shelter of Prabhupadas solutions for them.

 

 

First, I had nothing to do with Theists post.

 

 

I never said you did.

 

 

Secondly, you are now challenging me as to my purity and worth by how much I perform rituals, what my credentials are and/or what my influence is.

 

 

I'm beginning to suspect you are good at twisting words or points, maybe both. My point is in line with shastra. If someone is going to criticize others, they should meet up to standards of purity. Any such criticism or correcting of a devotee, you must be able to support with a quote from Vedic literature or Prabhupada, not our personal opinions. Also if you think aroti or anything is a mere ritual, you don't understand them in the first place.

 

 

I am intimidated on all points. I guess that makes you right.

 

 

First, you intimidated? LOL Actually, it was you whose been doing the intimidating.

 

Second, its not about me being right. Its about Prabhupada being right, and giving us the highest, all we need. No need for politics, just Prabhupada and Krishna. This has been my point all along and not based on me or my opinion, but following Prabhuapda's instructions.

 

Its been based on your opinion tho. I admit, I can be a good warrior when it comes to sticking up for Prabhupada as the authority we should use for everything.

[Priitaa]

Thiest,

 

Have you considered contacting Sadaputa? I realize it may, at first, sound far-fetched, or that you don't know him so maybe can't enter into his scientific circles. But when we really want to know something, I feel we have a 'right' to contact one another, cuz we are all one big family, however functional or dysfuncational that may be. lol We can make the best of it, and so if you did a search maybe for his web site, I bet you could find his addy and ask him for scientific info on clones.

 

Often B.I. is somewhat on top of stuff, we just dont know about it. That is, they have all these plans ha, and some happen, some don't.

[ancient_paztriot]

Priitaa,

 

… And the battle of egos continues. I feel dumb following up on this when the thread is so different. I'll overlook the point by point response. (Hmm, less painful that way).

 

You say you are not using any tactics. You say… I say. Your strategy is here for all to see.

 

Isn't it ironic that we both agree on the answer and yet battle over it?

 

This is getting very personal. This will quickly degenerate into name-calling if I respond in a similar fashion. You obviously feel you're in a position to correct me. I don't think so, because I'm already agreeing with you. Not only that, I'm struggling to present KC to a worldwide audience in a most effective manner that has the POTENTIAL to surpass any modern preaching efforts.

 

"My point is in line with shastra… "

 

I believe your point is that we should concentrate on spreading KC and not get into politics, etc.…

 

You make comments like this which I totally agree with. And then when I make comments like '30 years and counting' you just ignore. You see what you WANT to see. We all do this. That's what conditioned souls do.

 

There are many people that will appreciate spiritual perspectives on modern events, but will not buy the whole package. Some just close their eyes. Like Theist, I feel we're not qualified to discuss many things we do.

 

You can preach KC and make vegetarians or scientist or politicians. When we are successful, we make devotees. That's what Prabhupada wanted. Is this happening in the world? (Please don't reply with exceptions).

 

Prabhupada still made scathing observations and social commentary. It wasn't all just pure KC. In any case, I'm not the scholar Prabhupada was. Nor can I presume to have his devotion. I can't talk Sanskrit or quote verses, etc. I have to use what is within my means.

 

I have always argued for following Prabhupada, not imitating him. Theist just made this point.

 

"… If someone is going to criticize others, they should meet up to standards of purity."

 

About purity… nope, not gonna say the obvious… what I so often say.

 

When one professes something to others it should basically be true. Looking at my purity really does not tell you whether it is true or not - especially if you're not 'pure enough' to decide.

 

There were many 'filthy' sankirtana devotees who preached very successfully just repeating Prabhupada's words.

 

And there are many people, now and in the past, who have this purity you suggest. Many of them have simply ruined what Prabhupada did.

 

Purity is important. I'ts important to Krsna and Prabhupada. It's important that others don't see you as a charlatan (if you want them to listen).

 

But purity is not an empirical thing that can be so measured. The relationship between Krsna and Radha is most pure. Try to measure it by circumstance and you may get a different answer.

 

Anyway, purity is important for those who feel they have a reputation to maintain. Those trying to serve Prabhupada will become purified.

 

This preaching concern is bigger than all of us.

 

I really feel all this "my position" stuff is really petty between two devotees.

 

You feel secure in your practice I guess. Well, I don't. I can't only chant Hare Krsna while the world goes to hell. You may feel I have nothing to offer. Perhaps I'm just a looser who has read a few good books. Time will tell.

 

Anyway, you're not worthless to me just because we don't agree. I think you're a great soul… a rare occurance in this world.

 

I'm not gonna push my idea of political change on you. I see the futility of it. Like you, I utlimately agree all things can be affected though preaching KC - if we're not pretentious, if we're willing to smash our egos, if we can sacrifice… it's still IF after all this time! As a world view, I just see so much talking and very little execution.

 

We should speak and accuse oppressors. But we should encourage those that are actually trying to help. And we should know the difference.

 

I have dropped this commentary before on an earlier thread of yours. I liked your comment somewhere else about not forcing it because it usually has the opposite effect… So I feel that way too.

 

I'm sorry, I gotta get this down. I'm now meditating on this dialogue and it's related world views. It occurs to me that we have so little wisdom and are basically so stupid, that we can't really discriminate between friend and foe very well. I see it in every social strata. This is a philosophical comment only… applies to all of us in Kali-yuga. (Now there's some subjective truth). I see it in me.

 

It is getting hard to descriminate… (Hridyananda says this) becasue everything is superficially complicated.

 

My apologies Theist, your earlier 'plug' wasn't really a plug. That was just my perception of it.

[theist]

No one owes me an apology ancient. All is cool.

 

Here is an example of what I have been unable to explain. I have found it works best for me to be more oblique in my presentation. This is a post from another forum.

 

I hope to, for at least a short time, turn these discussions towards the nature of the soul.

 

The ways of spreading a little Krsna conscious teaching are varied. This works for me as I don't have to assume a stance of a devotee (and thereby become a hypocrite)and still plant some eternal seeds. Someone may show some interest and then I can refer them on to better sources.

 

I feel that if a questioning spirit is raised within any individual Supersoul will hear it and fulfill that person's questioning somewhere down the line.

 

The real goal is to bring us to an understanding of our eternal nature with the abortion issue being a secondary(but important) topic.

 

I think we should should be ready to do the same with the cloning issue which is going to really heat up in the near future.

 

------------------------

theist

12/31/03 2:05 PM 4 out of 4

soulsrch: So the first problem we encounter is when/if a fetus is considered a person. (Not just human or a potential person, but an actual person.) Some say in the womb, some say upon viability, some say on the day of birth.

 

There is another viewpoint we should consider. I for one do not consider the material form to be or become a person at any stage of development from the fetus to the elderly stages.

 

I view the soul/self/life force to be the person. We are persons eternally. I view abortion to be a violent and unlawful(according to God's plan)denial of a human form and human life to a person.

 

For those interested here is a verse from an ancient text from where I draw my viewpoint.

 

For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.Bhagavad-gita As It Is 2.20

 

God bless and happy new year to all!

 

--------------

 

Hare Krsna

[Priitaa]

Paztriot,

 

1) Tactics or strategy, none are being used. If you consider it being here for "all to see," its message boards for gosh sakes. lol Of course all will see. You are doing no different yet I do not accuse you of any tactics.

 

2) I do not see how, as you say, that we both agree. Egos are not automatically involved when two people disagree; and you can only speak for yourself there. lol (joke) With that said, we differ in the fact that I say there is absolutely no need to get politically involved in the world, that the nondevotees will take care of all of that for us. You say otherwise.

 

3) Yes, one can preach and make vegetarians or politicians devotees. But to look at it the angle you have, "is that whats happening?" is to change the topic. This is what I mean about how you are very attached to political points. So I really am not trying to get you ticked off, but simply trying to point out that this is an attachment to politics that you bring in at every angle. Which I undrestand but I also recognize it for what it is, as I have explaiend I 'could' do this too since I too have an interest in politics. But I dont, because I recognize it as sense gradificaiton of the mind.

 

4) To my comment: "My point is in line with shastra… " You respond: I believe your point is that we should concentrate on spreading KC and not get into politics, etc." However, my point in that particular paragraph was in relationship to inquiring about purity of one who criticizes others or wants to instruct them as if an authority. (Scroll up and reread if necessary to see what I wrote in context.) Therefore looking at yoru purity isn't based on what 'I' think is "true," but on what the Vedas find as true, which starts with Prabhupada's ABC's that one must first at least be living a relatively pure lifestyle or at least be able to properly repeat Prabhupada's instructions without changing them, before they themselves can even start instructing others.

 

I am not interested in looking at your purity personally, or for any mundane social or emperical reasoning, nor at your position. Tho I am interestied in getting YOU to look at your purity. And yes, you may say you all ready have. True. But my point is, if you do not feel pure, and if like Thiest who you use for an example, one should not speak of some of the things we do speak of here or you do not feel very qualified, then how can you talk as if you are an authority on such topics? Instead we should be focusing on 'becoming' more qualified. Nor am I saying that I am so pure, but I get to give the opinions I have - not based on my purity or lack thereof, but on Prabhupadas instructions because it is Prabhupada who is pure. If we try to change his program or instructions, that is the beginning of the end. This is also why everything should be able to be backed up by a quote. Incidentally, it was Prabhupada who placed importance on purity before speaking or instructing. One need not be perfect to preach, but they should not be hiding it either. (Not saying go public). The point is, they preach what Prabhupada wanted preached.

 

Now, I am not trying to single you out. You sort of did that yourself when you started to make negative comments to everyone who disagreed with you. :-) Sorry, but thats how I see it.

 

5) I ignored your comment on '30 years and counting' because, as explained, its changing the topic from spritual to politicial. Unless you can show me otherwise, its back to politics. It also can be used as an excuse to avoid doing our own preaching, following better ourselves and fixing ourselves. If we can point out whats wrong with the movement we can keep the focus off whats wrong with ourselves AND we can drag it back to that mental sense grat of the mind and politics. Not saying anyone should go public with personal anarthas, just that if we are talking about politics here, we think about them alot, therefore do not tend to our own gardens very well.

 

6) I have no problem with people appreciating spiritual perspectives on modern events. Its a form of preaching and I use it too. It is a different topic (again). My point is that amongst ourselves, we should preach the highest, we should know the highest. After all, you did say in one of your posts (sorry, I dont have the exact quote but scroll up or back) that if we do not get involved in politics then we are irresponsible. Whereas I understand that we are fully responsible if we take to Krishna consciousness, need not get into politics, stopping WWIII with sound vibration should not be viewed as something that can not happen again cuz times have changed, etc. To view it as "only" chanting Hare Krishna whlie the "world goes to hell" means you underestimate or else don't understand the power of the Holy Names.

 

7) Yes, there are many filthy skp devotees who did not and do not preach right. Not news to me. But that too is another topic, and once again, politics. Just cuz they messed up is no excuse for us to not preach. I am speaking of how Prabhupada wanted us to preach. I am never speaking of all this filth you seem to focus on. Funny, you say I see what I WANT to see, but the way you drag everything back to the political perspective, it appears to me that YOU see what you want to see. I know - this becomes rhetorical.

 

8) When Prabhupada made scathing observations and social commentary, the *purpose* of that was to spread pure Krishna consciousness. He almost always brought them full circle too. I would say always, but there may be an exception I have not read. However, its close to always. So he did not leave it there at material politics, but used their interesst to 'dovetail' it and bring around to transcendental Krishna consciousness.

 

9) Purity has nothing to do with maintaining a reputation. From filthy skp devotees, bogus iskcon leaders, aroti etc as mere rituals, and now purity as reputation - you are seeing all these from political persepctives. Therefore one can rationalize, why do them if they are all material in these ways that others who did them failed? But that philosophy wont help any of us get back to Godhead. Which of course, as you finally touched on, is the reason for purity - to achieve Krishnaloka and not personal reputation.

 

By the way, dont act like you are above keeping a reputation. Posting the responses you have is to create or maintain a specific type of reputation. :-) So no one is above reputation, but real purity is not about this at all, and that is merely the point I am trying to convey.

 

You say there are many pepole now and in the past who had such purity, yet ruined what Prabhuapda created. First, I say they did not have such purity since they ruined what Prabhuapda did. And again I say this is making politics more powerful and more important than transcendental Krishna consciousness.

 

10) I do not fear this reducing to name calling. I do not do that, so unless you feel that may be your knee jerk reaction, I see no reason why we cant have a sane, calm, philosophical discussion. Not that I want it to continue. LOL Just that if it does, I dont name call.

 

11) I am glad you found a way to preach that fits your nature, which you believe in, and 'you' find has 'potential.' Though you make it sound like all the methods of the past did not work and you've got something better. I all ready stated I agree many did not properly follow the methods right, but there are those who did. And even if they didn't, its Prabhupadas methods therefore they always work. Most of us would not be here if they didn't!

 

Please dont think you have the grand answer, or are the only one trying to spread Krishna consciousness. Many are preaching, in varigated ways. I have my program too, and while I sometimes put up a post to promote it, really not so often. Mostly I come here for devotee association and not to promote what I am doing. So I guess what I am saying is that I recognize deovtees get into this "missionary" consciousness at times, and I have fallen prey to it as well, but we need to check ourselves and not think we are doing better than anyone else.

 

~~~

 

I do appreciate your more gentle reply this time, and I agree you and I will probably never agree. It would be nice, however, if you would just admit your very into politics, both of iskcon and of the world. This is I think where we differ. The rest, we probably agree on. But how to achieve the goal - we clearly differ on.

 

P.S. If I left anything out, I did not ignore it, I felt it was covered above or previously. If you feel I ignored anything, let me know and I will give two cents worth.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada's own example sets the standard. When he met his Gurudeva, he was told to give up his Ghandian politics and preach the message of Sri Mahaprabhu, being that this message was so utterly urgent, it could not wait, no matter how bleak things appeared externally. The example is also given of watering the roots of the tree, that all the branches and leaves will automatically be nourished. I believe Srila Prabhupada also said that the chanting of Hare Krsna (in addition to stopping or postponing WW3), had also stopped the "big one" from happening (devastating earthquakes in L.A.)

 

From my understanding, part of being an aspiring devotee is to view external circumstances, whether favorable or otherwise, as tests from Krsna. If one is truly sincere in wanting to serve Krsna via his pure representative, no material obstacle can prevent this from happening. Sure, we will be tested, and sometimes we will fall, but for those who are truly sincere, they will ultimately succeed. Krsna says that He carries what they lack and preserves what they have. If we take 1 step forward to Krsna, He will take 10 steps towards us. We are advised to abandon all varieties of dharma, artha, kama, and moksa, and to simply surrender, and Krsna will protect us and free us from our reactions so that we may engage in Saranagati. If we think that external circumstances can prevent sincere devotees from practicing bhakti yoga, then we must question our faith in the process. Queen Kunti would actually pray for calamities to occur, for by such seemingly unfavorable external occurrences, her remembrance of Krsna would increase.

 

By the same token, Srila Prabhupada did predict, (or at least make it his goal), that one day there would be judges on the Supreme Court wearing Tilak. So, I guess if a devotee has that inclination towards politics, he shouldn't be discouraged in that endeavor. At the same time, he shouldn't be expecting everyone else to be like him, and that if they aren't like him, they are like ostriches with their heads buried in the sand. I seem to have read, perhaps in the Lilamrita, that Srila Prabhupada was once asked if he would like to become King or President, should the opportunity arise. He said "no, you become King, and I will be your Guru." This tells me two things: 1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics. And 2) a devotee who is interested in politics and is successful in being elected, should seek counsel from superior Vaishnavas. He should not think that he is doing more than anyone else to save the world. He should be humble and consider himself insignificant, a servant of the servant of the Vaishnavas. During Krsna's manifest presence, even the Kauravas, led by Duryodhana, kept pure devotees as advisors, such as Sri Vidura. Entering politics can be beneficial to a degree, as far as preaching goes. But it's not the most important service one can render, otherwise Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur would have advised Sri Abhay Charan to continue following Ghandi and boycotting the British. Instead, we see that Srila Prabhupada preached the message of Mahaprabhu to Ghandi, with little results apparently, other than to demonstrate that when one becomes involved in politics, there is great danger of forgetting the true goal of life.

 

Anyway, perhaps a balance can be struck between what Pritha dasi is saying and what Paztriot is propounding. Ultimately, we have to have faith that the holy name is Krsna Himself, and is all-powerful. At the same time, if one is so inclined to enter politics, he may do so, but with the understanding that his propensity for such things is not necessarily the be-all and end-all, or the best service one can perform for the purpose of spreading Krsna Consciousness.

 

Bhakta Dan

[Priitaa]

Bhakta Dan,

 

I read your reply and am in total agreement with all you said. So, nothing more for me to comment in via your post. But for the last paragraph. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I doubt Paztriot and I will ever strike a balance, because I see Prabhupadas words and method as the absolute truth. While Paztriot is favorable toward Srila Prabhupada, it appears to me he thinks he has some better plan or preaching method, as well as where to place the preaching focus too. Thus, the twain shall never meet. But at least we are not enemies - anymore. LOL