same ? again

[ancient_paztriot]

Priitaa, I see your point by point basis. Honestly, I don't have the interest to read it. I know we are both opinionated.

 

I can see how the messages go… skimming through them. Fine you guys. I'm not gonna argue against anything Prabhupada has said. I'll just be happy with what I know.

[Priitaa]

Oh, NOW you decide not to read them. LOL If they were all into what you're into, you'd read them alright. ha But Ok, thats no problem. I'm not attached.

 

But opionated? I use to hear back in the 70s from the nondevotees how all devotees are opionated because they strictly believe in Prabhupada. These days its not uncommon for devotees to say it, but I guess I did not expect that you would. So if my firm belief in the words of Prabhuapda, my jagat guru, are opionated, so be it.

[ancient_paztriot]

Sorry again Theist. This should wrap it up. (But it's getting long through my editing).

 

Priitaa and Bhakta Dan,

 

Started to read your posts… I'm glancing through them, but I see more of the same rhetoric. Sorry, but I think y'all have no idea what you're are talking about.

 

It occured to me that I am really doing no different than you.

 

I do bring politics up alot because I don't have my head in the sand. I see what corporate f&•*%!s are doing… and I see their goal to just make you one of their machines… Not a nice machine that Krsna makes… No! …one that only responds to their commands.

 

I don't try to talk politcs outside a KC perspective. I offer my comments as to the corruption and exploitation of people and institutions with the similar KC based comments you all make on whatever interests you have.

 

We need devotees that can see the spiritual perspectives in all areas of life.

 

I am keeping Krsna in the center - a little more or less - as you are. Hare Krsna.

 

Now everybody's gonna tell you it's not worth it

Everybody's gotta show you their own thing

You might try to find your way up around it

But the need for love will still remain - Jackson Browne

 

Women (meant to seduce…dictate and bewilder) …and the men who act like them?

 

*)(&(*^&%%$@# - ancient paztriot

 

There is also this to be said… in women's favor:

… I'm hearing this now as I practice: …not just women, but romance in general:

 

MY PROBLEM IS YOU

 

To love and get away before the walls have arisen

You've got to be free

But to go on attempting to break into the prison

You'd have to be me

I wait for the sun to rise over the mountain

I wait for your touch

I wait for your angels to carry me home

But I wait too much

Waiting for you

I have no problem telling right from wrong

Fiction from what's true

No problem telling the dream from the dawn

My problem is you

Waiting here for you

 

I wanted to live in the realm of the senses

You've got to know how

And for some kinds of pleasure there are no defenses

I know that now

Our love is a crackling ladder of lightning

Our love is a fire

Our love is a wave moving deep in an ocean

Of need and desire

Waiting for you

I have no problem with this crooked world

I play the cards I drew

No problem with the changes life has hurled

My problem is you

Waiting here for you

 

I need your wonder and I need your light

I need your tender touch to heal the night

I need you laughing and I need you free

And I need to lock you away deep inside of me

Waiting for you

 

I have no problem telling right from wrong

The way some people do

I know exactly where these arms belong

My problem is you

Waiting here for you - Jackson Browne

 

Nothing implied. Just fits in with the gender dynamics - philosophically:

Materially, these sexual mental dynamics are the fundamentals of life.

 

Another Perspective:

 

LATE FOR THE SKY

 

The words had all been spoken

And somehow the feeling still wasn't right

And still we continued on through the night

Tracing our steps from the beginning

Until they vanished into the air

Trying to understand how our lives has led us there

 

Looking hard into your eyes

There was nobody I'd ever known

Such an empty surprise to feel so alone

 

Now for me some words come easy

But I know that they don't mean that much

Compared with the things that are said when lovers touch

You never knew what I loved in you

I don't know what you loved in me

Maybe the picture of somebody you were hoping I might be

 

Awake again I can't pretend and I know I'm alone

And close to the end of the feeling we've known

 

How long have I been sleeping

How long have I been drifting alone through the night

How long have I been dreaming I could make it right

If I closed my eyes and tried with all my might

To be the one you need

 

Awake again I can't pretend and I know I'm alone

And close to the end of the feeling we've known

 

How long have I been sleeping

How long have I been drifting alone through the night

How long have I been running for that morning flight

Through the whispered promises and the changing light

Of the bed where we both lie

Late for the sky - Jackson Browne

 

© 1974 SWALLOW TURN MUSIC

[gHari]

The eggs appear to be unfertilized. This leads to numerous ramifications that my current brain state just doesn't want to address now. Gentlemen, it appears we are no longer required. If women find out, our days are numbered.

 

http://biology.about.com/library/weekly/aa010903a.htm

 

Another source at http://home.hawaii.rr.com/johns/techniqu.htm : donor cell was taken from the culture and then starved in a mixture, which had only enough nutrients to keep the cell alive. This caused the cell to begin shutting down all active genes and enter the G0 stage. The egg cell of a Blackface ewe was then enucleated and placed next to the donor cell. One to eight hours after the removal of the egg cell, an electric pulse was used to fuse the two cells together and, at the same time, activate the development of an embryo. This technique for mimicking the activation provided by sperm is not completely correct, since only a few electrically activated cells survive long enough to produce an embryo. [..] Unfertilized mouse egg cells were used as the recipients of the donor nuclei. After being enucleated, the egg cells had donor nuclei inserted into them. The donor nuclei were taken from cells within minutes of the each cell’s extraction from a mouse. Unlike the process used to create Dolly, no in vitro, or outside of an animal, culturing was done on the cells. After one hour, the cells had accepted the new nucleus. After an additional five hours, the egg cell was then placed in a chemical culture to jumpstart the cell’s growth, just as fertilization does in nature.

 

 

Are we mice or are we men?

 

[Guest guest]

The illegitimate rulers were causing a burden

on earth, Krsna wanted His friends to do battle

and remove the unqualified rulers and re-establish

Dharma, to bring about the rule of heaven

on earth.

 

Arjuna was resistant to this approach,pleading the will

of God and the cause of self realization as being

the superior path, he declined to become involved

in the battle for political power.

 

Krsna told Him ,while speaking learned words you

are really a fool,I have decided what is to be done,

and that is the essence of self realization,self realization in the end means to come into My association.

To see the supersoul and meditate on the divine nature

is but the path to the goal of becoming My friend

and associate,real yoga is to see that My desire

for your action is superior to your desire for

knowledge of the self ,

And I am asking you to fight,in fact the future is allready decided by My plan,I want You to rule,

all you have to do is go through the motions

and I will do the rest,So give up this weakness

and ignorance,Fight because that is my desire.

 

So real bhakti yoga means doing what Krsna wants,

if this takes one form or another form,

meditation or fighting ,the essence is doing

what Krsna wants.

 

To do Prabhupadas will may have different meanings,

and that may change for different people in different

circumstances, Arjuna was a warrior,He had a duty to perform, in another circumstance that may be a different duty,either way the real duty is doing what Krsna

wants,that is the essence of Bhakti.

 

So Srila Prabhupada, when asked what he wanted to accomplish

but wasn't able to ,always responded, "Varnasrama Dharma".

 

Not writing more books or doing more preaching,He wanted

a political and economic change in the world,that is what

he desired to see implemented.

 

So its not that all devotees need to avoid the world

stage of politics and the like,everyone has their

duty,some may be like Arjuna and empowered to bring

about Varnasrama and Dharma,others may have another duty

to speak Krsna katha, We only need to do our duty,

whatever that may be.

 

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

My title seems a little over the top, but your post is so true.

 

Unfortunately, many superiors want to lord over others thinking they know best. They don't want to hear different. They are not liberal enough to be objective. Their fortunes lie in their efforts to consolidate and control by their own devious means. Any other input is discounted… others are not appreciated.

 

And their boldness is applauded by others envious to imitate and dominate.

 

But we can all agree, in Krsna consciouness… OUR AIM IS ABSOLUTE …as expressed in devotional service.

 

(Another political plug? True. I'm consumed with political indignation. I think you all know it by now.)

 

Out of respect for Theist and the circumstances of this thread, I'm gonna stay out unless I comment on cloning.

[Guest guest]

1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics.

••it is possible to found pure vaishnavas in any social class, and one of the four classes is ksatrya, politicians, soldiers, policemn... the pandavas were politicians... (the pure devotional service is not in the activity in itself, it is basically in the fact that we offer the results to our false ego or to krishna)

 

And 2) a devotee who is interested in politics and is successful in being elected, should seek counsel from superior Vaishnavas.

••any devotee seeks counsel from a vaishnava, even uttama adhikaris.. also a ksatrya is directed by brahmanas

 

yasoda nandana dasa (not logged): happy new year to all the vaishnavas

[Guest guest]

Not writing more books or doing more preaching,He wanted, a political and economic change in the world,that is what he desired to see implemented.

•••prabhupada wants to serve chaitanya mahaprabhu in spreading and preaching the holy name in every town and village (in many ways including the writing of books).. a subproduct of this "spreading" will be the economic and political changes that you are rightly remembering

 

y.n.d.

[Guest guest]

1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics.

••it is possible to found pure vaishnavas in any social class, and one of the four classes is ksatrya, politicians, soldiers, policemn... the pandavas were politicians... (the pure devotional service is not in the activity in itself, it is basically in the fact that we offer the results to our false ego or to krishna)

 

Thankyou for the correction, prabhu. What you say is indeed a fact. After re-reading my post, I realized I should have qualified what I said. I was basically referring to the here and now. Naturally, in previous yugas, Varnashrama Dharma was in existence and most people accepted Lord Narayana as God, although very few actually recognized Krsna to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Even in this age, there are Vaishnava sampradayas who do not accept the divinity of Lord Chaitanya, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Rupa and Sanatana were engaged in government service. I believe that Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was the son of a king. Yet, all left their respective services and devoted themselves fully in Lord Chaitanya's mission, hearing and chanting all day long as well as writing extensively. My understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that most pure Vaishnavas since the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu either become gosthananandis or bhajananandis. Either they leave behind all other responsibilities and preach, or they engage in exclusive bhajan, as did Srila Haridasa Thakur and Srila Gaura Kishor das Babaji.

 

Or course, there are exceptions. Srila Bhaktivinode was a householder and had a family of devotees to maintain, and was a magistrate throughout much of his life, yet still wrote voluminously. However, his sons, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, despite being a genius in various fields such as astronomy for example, chose to devote his life exclusively in preaching.

 

I personally think it would be absolutely wonderful and utterly fabulous if there were indeed pure Vaisnavas situated in high government positions throughout the world, as well as in all other walks of life, whether it be ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, or whatever. However, in my humble observation, in order for that dream to become a reality, we first have to develop a class of pure Vaishnavas, which requires those who are presently pure and qualified, to preach, just as Srila Prabhupada was instructed to preach by his own Spiritual Master, rather than engage in Indian politics, even though at first Srila Prabhupada was thinking that the message of Mahaprabhu would not be accepted unless the political situation in India was first straightened out, through the leadership of Mahatma Ghandi.

 

I could be mistaken in my understanding. However, these are my realizations based upon studying the lives of Vaishnava Saints coming in the line of Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada.

 

Bhakta Dan

[Priitaa]

 

Started to read your posts… I'm glancing through them, but I see more of the same rhetoric. Sorry, but I think y'all have no idea what you're are talking about.

 

 

Ahhhhh, such humility is overwhelming. :-)

 

Maybe if I didn't need to make the same point to you over and over, if you stopped aruging Prabhuada's highest teachings, trying to find angles around them, or where you make comments like devotees who are chanting Hare Krishna are irresponsible and letting the world go to hell, I wouldn't have to repeat them, or as you say, be so "rhetorical."

 

 

Women (meant to seduce…dictate and bewilder) …and the men who act like them?

 

 

That's a sexist comment if ever I heard one. Then again, if you think you're your body, that would explain it.

 

That you included something in favor of women to so-call balance it out, does not make it justifiable. Sounds like the "good 'ol boys club" is showing up. There's one way to keep women away from this thread.

[Priitaa]

 

My understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that most pure Vaishnavas since the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu either become gosthananandis or bhajananandis.

 

 

Haribol Bhakta Dan,

 

I am not commenting on your point above, but a different one - somewhat. Prabhupada actually criticized those who are bhajananandi's because they did not preach, did not share Krishna with others.

 

Regarding devotees getting involved in politics, I have no problem with those who are so inclined. Simply we first must achieve a level of purity. One may not have achieved pure devotee status cent per cent, but they must live a very regulated as well as strict life, especially if they are going to be associating with mundane politicians, most who live a questionalbe lifestyle at best. In any case, the Vedic system only allowed the qualified to hold a goverment positions, as you know. And those who were in politics always took instruction from the brahman priests, surrendering or gaving up their own ideas for those of the brahmanas in most cases.

 

Yes, Prabhupada renounced his political interests in Mahatma Ghandi due to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta instructions on the matter. Politics come, politics go, issues repeat themselves. The temporary nature of this world is minimized by us human beings, thinking we shall live forever. Tomorrow we could walk in front of a truck (etc) and die. To finally be granted the human form is rare. We need to be careful not to waste it. If we aren't serious in our Krishna consciousness, any political gains will have been of little use, if any, as they are merely a symptom of the material world. The only permanent way out of that requires spiritual energy.

 

One of my favorite quotes is something we use to say in the ashrama, from Prabhupada of course.

 

Preaching is the essence.

Purity is the force.

Books are the basis.

Utility is the principle.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[yasodanandana]

However, in my humble observation, in order for that dream to become a reality, we first have to develop a class of pure Vaishnavas,

•••in my opinion you are identifying the cathegory "pure vaishnava" with the brahmana social status, that is a materalist (take it for discussion, i do not want to offend you in any way) view of the matter. Bhagavad gita teachs to us that the purity is in the heart and not in the external activity..

 

, to preach, just as Srila Prabhupada was instructed to preach by his own Spiritual Master,

•••a preacher is an acharya.. one who shows the example, so this is the main preaching not the fact that one becomes a brahmana or that he gives many classes, speeches.. and so on

Srila Prabhupada and srila bhaktisiddhanta are preaching the bhakti, and bhakti is independent from the social status and the external activities of the bhakta

 

there's not to make confusion between the preaching of the pure devotee and an emergency period... prabhupada came in the west for a few years and surely he had to twist the svadharma of many disciples to build a complete ecclesistical system with temples, brahmana, monks, preachers (in the traditional priestly way), sannyasis and so on to show it to the future generation.. but the krsna consciousness movement cannot live eternally in emergency, we have seen it.. so the answer (not mine.. ir is already given by the masters) is varnashram...... as arjuna did, we have not to change our external way of life, we have to change internally and devote ourselves and our activities fruits to krishna

 

even though at first Srila Prabhupada was thinking that the message of Mahaprabhu would not be accepted unless the political situation in India was first straightened out

••••do not interprete the thoughts of the acharya as a path from ignorance to comprehension as he would be a common man... these are lilas, not ordinary human activities.

if we want to learn something from these lilas we have to understand that there's not any real improvement of the social, political, personal situation if there's no bhakti inside the heart of the leaders and the people. The problem with gandhi, as prabhupada said in the famous letter to him, was that he had to make a spiritual revolution along the material one to have effective results. Prabhupada in the letter does not say "stop your activities and be a priest or monk", he says "come to me some months i will teach you bhagavad gita then you will use your position to make a spiritual revolution" exactly like krsna with arjuna... "trasform your karma in karma(bhakti)yoga do not attempt to change it"

 

 

 

[Priitaa]

Yasodanandana,

 

What 'time' is it over there in Italy now? You are up awfully late, aren't you? Then again, it could be me, up too early. ha

[yasodanandana]

oh.. no mataji prabhu.. now it is 12.10 p.m.!! (12.10.. not 00.10)

 

happy new year to you and all your family and friends, please pray srila prabhupada to make me chant hare krishna until the end of life and in the next one /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Priitaa]

Prasadam? It sounds good! Send some this way. ha

 

Oh prabhu, I think we all have this problem, :-) We simply gotta keep on truckin and at the time of death, we have a darn good chance of making it. I have little faith in myself, but as a devotee once told me, its about Prabhupada, that I may mess up, but he will save me. I dont know. I think he will take one look and throw me back lol, but their point was, by his mercy we are saved.

 

Oh, and happy new years to you and yours as well.

[Priitaa]

Yasodanandana,

 

While posting to you, this story came to mind. Tho its not word per word, so I can only go from memory.

 

It was at RathaYatra. Prabhuapda was in front of some steps. He said even if you don't achieve 100% Krishna consciousness, if you become only 90% Krishna consciouss, you will still go back to Godhead. Then he stepped down one step.

 

The devotees got excited or hopeful, and someone asked, "What about 80% Prabhuapda?" So Prabhuapda went down another step and said if you become 80% Krishna conscious, you still can go back to Godhead."

 

Getting more hopeful devotees, the rascals that we are ha, asked, "Prabhupada, what about 70 %? Can we go back if we are only 70%? And Prabhuapda stepped down yet another step and replied that yes, even if we achieve only 70% Krishna consciousness, we shall go back to Godhead.

 

Then the deovtees, well you guessed it. "Prabhuapda, what if we only become 60%?" And surprisingly Prabhupada stepped down yet another step and told them even if they become only 60% Krishna conscious, they can go back to Godhead.

 

Now the devotees just can't help themselves as you know ha, and asked "What about 50%?" But Prabhupada stopped and said no, that we must at least become 60% Krishna conscious.

 

The way I figure it, in highshcool 60% is a "D." ha Not the best grade, but 'technically' passing. So most of us can achieve a D, coupled with the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, go back Home. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyhow, I thought that was a cute story.

[yasodanandana]

it is a very nice transcendental story... we became 60% krsna conscious for the mercy of the spiritual master, then the other 40% is directly in charge of him...

 

"60% is a "D." ha Not the best grade, but 'technically' passing"

•••yes, i cannot judge any devotional position but i think that it is a great realization.. TECNICAL... we are requested to do well our duties, to express in this way the desire to go back to godhead.. then the spiritual master gives the realization, the skills, the drarshan of sri krishna... we are not able to achieve ever a little bit of real and experienced krsna consciousness, we can only desire.. and also the desire is a blessing of guru and gauranga, because the maximum we can do is desire to desire..

 

in my opinion this story is extremely important... many thanks

[Guest guest]

•••in my opinion you are identifying the cathegory "pure vaishnava" with the brahmana social status, that is a materalist (take it for discussion, i do not want to offend you in any way) view of the matter. Bhagavad gita teachs to us that the purity is in the heart and not in the external activity..

 

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. I do know the difference between a pure Vaishnava and a brahmana. And if, it is a "materialist matter" as you suggest, (per your assumption that I am referring to brahmanas, not Vaishnavas), then why have you stated that the "answer is Varnashrama", which of course includes the brahminical class, which you have in turn stated is a "materialist."

 

•••a preacher is an acharya.. one who shows the example, so this is the main preaching not the fact that one becomes a brahmana or that he gives many classes, speeches.. and so on

 

Yes, we are in agreement there, and I'm not sure that anything I've said would indicate otherwise.

 

Srila Prabhupada and srila bhaktisiddhanta are preaching the bhakti, and bhakti is independent from the social status and the external activities of the bhakta

Again, we are in agreement here.

 

but the krsna consciousness movement cannot live eternally in emergency, we have seen it.. so the answer (not mine.. ir is already given by the masters) is varnashram.....

 

I am definitely not against Varnashrama and seeing pure devotees placed in high political positions, as I have mentioned in my previous post. But the real question is, are we not yet still in a state of emergency? Yes, Srila Prabhupada established so many Temples. Yet, due to mismanagement and other factors, so many devotees have left. If we cannot even properly manage our Temples with their small congregations, then how can we reasonably assume that we are now ready to manage millions of people, non-devotees included, from high government positions?

 

even though at first Srila Prabhupada was thinking that the message of Mahaprabhu would not be accepted unless the political situation in India was first straightened out

••••do not interprete the thoughts of the acharya as a path from ignorance to comprehension as he would be a common man... these are lilas, not ordinary human activities.

 

Why do you assume that I am interpreting Srila Prabhupada's pastime with his Guru in some ordinary way? Yes, I fully understand that these are divine lilas. As you mentioned above, an acharya teaches by example. Srila Prabhupada has himself given this example of how his Gurudeva instructed him to give up Indian politics and spread the message of Mahaprabhu.

 

if we want to learn something from these lilas we have to understand that there's not any real improvement of the social, political, personal situation if there's no bhakti inside the heart of the leaders and the people.

 

And here you make my point for me. Do we have enough qualified leaders with sufficient bhakti who can lead the world in social and political situations?

 

My humble opinion is no, we do not, therefore we are still in a state of emergency. Yes, there are now many many devotees throughout the world, thanks to the preaching efforts of Srila Prabhupada, your own Gurudeva, and so many others. But, apart from the great Vaishnava Acaryas who are spreading the message of Mahaprabhu (not just by preaching, but by example), how many devotees are actually pure and qualified to institute Varnashrama in the manner in which you suggested? I'm all for Varnashrama Dharma. Let's first see if we can implement it within our Temples, which thus far we have been unable to do. After that, if there is success, then we can talk about placing pure devotees in high government positions.

 

Hari bol. Please excuse any offense I might have committed.

 

your servant,

 

Bhakta Dan

 

[yasodanandana]

why have you stated that the "answer is Varnashrama", which of course includes the brahminical class, which you have in turn stated is a "materialist."

•••because everyone with any karma and guna combination can devote himself and his acivities to krsna.. this is devotion..

 

not that only the traditional priest or preacher who belongs to the brahmin cathegory can be fully krsna conscious, this is the material conception, not that brahmin is a materialist class

 

But the real question is, are we not yet still in a state of emergency?

•••no, the emergency where anyone has to go to the temple and leave his social duties to became a vaishnava is definitely ended. There's an emergency with a world rolling with great speed to hell, but this has to be counteracted estabilishing the krsna consciousness in the society

 

If we cannot even properly manage our Temples with their small congregations, then how can we reasonably assume that we are now ready to manage millions of people, non-devotees included, from high government positions?

••i do not see these things as a matter for the organizations or as a program for building a new class of ksatryas with stages and schools inside the temples, congregations and so on.

 

If we preach with the example that to be krishna conscious makes us happy, people with political aspirations and skills will start chanting hare krishna, they will bring their spiritual education and realization in their life and activity... exactly like an employee, a sweeper, a farmer and so on.

When the devotee in the given example "plans" to be a king, prabhupada does not say "i will be the emperor", he says "i will be your spiritual master"... so everyone serves in his karma (obviously prabhupada is not limited in his action by any varna affiliation... but he acts properly as a sannyasa brahmin)

 

The devotee organizations, maths, temples are technically brahmanas, the "private" householder devotees do other jobs in other varnas, there's no need of an iskcon political party or similar

 

Do we have enough qualified leaders with sufficient bhakti who can lead the world in social and political situations?

••.as i have said it is not a iskcon/math/church problem... we do not have to twist the svadharma of who is already making devotional service, we have to spread the holy name and krsna will send us a great politician who will do his job in a krsna conscious way.

We did not make music courses to produce a beatles-like band to sing "my sweet lord", we chanted hare krishna and bhakta george harrison heard it, and inspied by chatya guru and by his incarnation srila prabhupada, accepted devotional service and performed him according his karma and guna

 

how many devotees are actually pure and qualified to institute Varnashrama in the manner in which you suggested?

••so what to do? everyone escaping from home and go living in the temple? simply we have to add hare krishna to the lifes we are already living.. this is varnashrama, not a thing that has to be "instituted"

 

 

Let's first see if we can implement it within our Temples, which thus far we have been unable to do

•••let's first became krsna conscious chanting hare krishna in the position given by us by the laws of nature created and sustained by sri krsna bhagavan, this is varnashrama, there's not separated efforts to do... in this way everything will grow up in an armonic and natural way.

 

If we have problems now it is 1)because we have not followed the advice of the acharyas and the vaishnavas 2)because we have artificially acted as brahmachary, sannyasi, vanaprasta and brahmanas even if we were grihastas, sudra, vaisha and ksatrya.

 

The real service is to devote ourselves to krsna, not to change in some concocted way our personality to make a service not right for us

 

 

After that, if there is success, then we can talk about placing pure devotees in high government positions.

•••again you're treating this subject as an organization problem or a collective matter..... more simply, if you have the karma to be a musician you will turn it in karma bhakti yoga playing and singing for kishna, if your karma is to be a sweeper you'll be a sweeper for krishna, if you're a politician you will be a politician for krsna.

The problem is that, believing that we are in "that" kind of emergency, we show the temple brahmana as the only possible kind of devotee and the religious organization or the ashram as the only possible kind of devotional life.. it is not surprising that we are full of frustrated "non brahmins" and lacking of any godbrother in a social relevant position.

 

Hari bol. Please excuse any offense I might have committed.

•••oh, no offense, you are a vaishnava and you are preaching krsna consciousness... there's no harm in krsna katha

[Guest guest]

Haribol Prabhu,

 

Most of your rebuttals to my comments, I hate to say, are strawmen. You have made many incorrect assumptions concerning my statements on the topic in which we are discussing. It is probably my own fault, as I often do not articulate and express my views properly. Also, a couple of your rebuttals are simply a re-stating (in your own words) of exactly what I've been advocating all along. If you're in agreement with me on various comments I've made, why rebut? If, by chance, some of my comments seem vague or unclear, just ask and I will gladly clarify.

 

But the real question is, are we not yet still in a state of emergency?

•••no, the emergency where anyone has to go to the temple and leave his social duties to became a vaishnava is definitely ended. There's an emergency with a world rolling with great speed to hell, but this has to be counteracted estabilishing the krsna consciousness in the society.

 

First you say we aren't in an emergency state, then you say we are. I don't believe I've ever stated that everyone should leave behind their families and jobs and join an Iskcon Temple and become a monk. My main point is that we need to become fully Krsna Conscious. That happens by associating with advanced devotees, chanting, and following the process of Bhakti Yoga. You say we need to establish Krsna Consciousness within the society, and that this is an emergency. I agree. My point all along. That is why preaching is so important. And not just preaching, but becoming purified ourselves, no matter our external situation, so that we might have the potency to attract others to Krsna Consciousness.

 

Let's first see if we can implement it within our Temples, which thus far we have been unable to do.

•••let's first became krsna conscious chanting hare krishna in the position given by us by the laws of nature created and sustained by sri krsna bhagavan, this is varnashrama, there's not separated efforts to do... in this way everything will grow up in an armonic and natural way.

 

Once again, my point all along. Let us become Krsna Conscious, and things will develop naturally. As far as implementing Varnashrama within the Temple communities (which was something which Srila Prabhupada ultimately wanted), I only used that example, as a miniature model, to demonstrate that even on a small scale, (comparatively speaking), we have failed for the most part. Women, children, devotees in general, and even the cows, have suffered much abuse. This is a symptom that we are lacking in qualified leaders who are fully Krsna Conscious. Things are progressing, and I am hopeful for the future, but as it stands now, we are still in short supply of pure devotees who would enter the political arena and manage the masses. Yes, Varnashram Dharma also includes vaisyas and sudras. However, the discussion was originally concerning devotees entering politics to save the world, and one person here seemed to feel that it was the highest form of preaching. So, when reading my comments, please keep these things in proper context, otherwise we will get sidetracked and there will be misunderstanding, which is not at all fruitful for facilitating a Krsna Conscious discussion.

 

The real service is to devote ourselves to krsna, not to change in some concocted way our personality to make a service not right for us

 

Yes, let us devote ourselves to Krsna and become pure devotees. No need for anything artificial, no need to concoct. I don't believe I've said anything to suggest otherwise. Once again, we are in agreement here.

 

Bhakta Dan

[stonehearted]

Pritha: One of my favorite quotes is something we use to say in the ashrama, from Prabhupada of course.

 

Preaching is the essence.

Purity is the force.

Books are the basis.

Utility is the principle.

 

Babhru: Well, you'll probably want to show me where he said that. In the 2003 VedaBase, you'll only find all four of those together in one place. A devotee wrote them on a scroll in Chinese characters and it was brought to him. He did cite Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati as saying "Utility is the principle," but I think you'll find little or no evidence that he actually wrote or spoke that aphorism himself. It's purely apocryphal as far as I can tell. Same with the "law books for the next 10,000 years. Some said Ramesvara told him that Srila Prabhupada said it in a car. Should something he may never have said carry the same weight as Krishna's instruction at the end of Bhagavd-gita? I don't think so.

[Priitaa]

Babru,

 

You make a good point. Tho I said it was hung up (or something like that) in the ashrama when I was a brahmacarini. A few years ago I asked a devotee online for that quote, as they said they had it. This was before I had the folio, and they sent it to me as you see it. I trusted them. You may be correct tho, that it was not all together as one unit, but it was common for deovtees to say that way. If its not 100% bona fide, I wonder why they repeated it as if it were.

 

I haven 't done a search, but will take your word for it that its not in the VedaBase. Tho I also saw a slide show once where that (entire) quote was in included in the pic, but yes I realize someone could have just put it like that. It doesn't really matter to me if it is all together or not because it is just a nice spiriutal saying that I find inspiring. The degree that preaching has gone down the drain is something I find disturbing, so for me this quote is quite helpful.

 

Well, if this is a 'Ramesvara uvaca' ha I would have to think about it further, yet I wouldn't want to assume he wasn't telling the truth. He had his set of problems, but I would hope he didn't outright lie about actual quotes from Prabhupada. That is, I hope if he said he heard Prabhupada say it, that he really did hear Prabhupada say it. Who would lie about such a thing? Imagine the karma!

 

I am glad you brought this to my attention though. I confess I may keep it by my computer as I have been. Admittedly I've become attached, therefore would like to make sure if its not bona fide as one quote. Maybe later I will do a folio search, I just don't feel like pulling up that program right now. (My comp gets clogged up fast.)

 

P.S. Same for the lawbooks for the next 10,000 years? Are you sure? Ok, you're sure. Well, now I am REALLY going to have to do a folio search.

[Priitaa]

 

yes, i cannot judge any devotional position but i think that it is a great realization.. TECNICAL... we are requested to do well our duties, to express in this way the desire to go back to godhead.. then the spiritual master gives the realization, the skills, the drarshan of sri krishna... we are not able to achieve ever a little bit of real and experienced krsna consciousness, we can only desire.. and also the desire is a blessing of guru and gauranga, because the maximum we can do is desire to desire..

 

 

Haribol Yasodanandana prabhu,

 

Yes, I get what you are saying. My understanding of the story is that Prabhupada expected us to do our very best, to give it our all, and to be honest about this - then if we still only came up to 60% Krishna consciousess, under such circumstances we would be saved by his mercy.

 

I think we are in agreement here. :-)

[yasodanandana]

Most of your rebuttals to my comments, I hate to say, are strawmen. You have made many incorrect assumptions concerning my statements on the topic in which we are discussing

•••i am the most bad living entity of the world, maybe the only one without soul but our discussion is started from this:

 

1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics.

 

And 2) a devotee who is interested in politics and is successful in being elected, should seek counsel from superior Vaishnavas.

 

....

 

following with other assertions like:

"And here you make my point for me. Do we have enough qualified leaders with sufficient bhakti who can lead the world in social and political situations?"

 

......

 

for my perception all these statements show an idea of a solution of the various bad things in the world and of some problems in our movement, based on the religious organization, the church, the temple, the priestly status and so on... my point is the exact opposite:

1) a pure Vaishnava is probably not at all inclined to enter into politics..... my answer is that one who is for karma a politician starts to chant hare krishna, take initiation from an uttama adhikari, begins to offer the results of his activities to krsna and gets pure devotion turning his political job in devotional service.

it is not that we have already devotees doing other activities and for the decree of the organisation.. "stop to be a pujari or a book distributor... now you are a politician"

 

and also: "" Do we have enough qualified leaders with sufficient bhakti who can lead the world in social and political situations?"... my answer is that the leaders have already their karma and they are already making devotional service through karma yoga using their natural skills to do what they are already doing. The hare krishnas, iskcon, other maths etc, as spiritual brahminical organizations, have basically to spread the holy name .... than the people who accepts it, without changing their karma status, start to making devotional service changing the spirit not the activities.

No leader of a spiritual organization, supposed to be like a priest, a bishop, a pope.. a brahmin, sannyasi etc... has to change his status to make the service of a ksatrya, politician, policeman, soldier etc.

 

First you say we aren't in an emergency state, then you say we are

•••we aren't in the emergency that praphupada had, to show in a few years how a spiritual organisation works with the need to build all the roles and structure connected with it... but our world is surely in emergency and needs surely a big injection of krsna consciousness, and the revolution now is no more centered on the temple expansion and the icreasing of the number of his inhabitants, but in the developing of varnashrama... that is natural: "have you the tendency to be a brahmana, vaisya, ksatrya, sudra... no problem, add hare krishna and your life will be sublime and that's all"

 

(implementing Varnashrama within the Temple communities (which was something which Srila Prabhupada ultimately wanted)

•••i do not thing it is exact... prabhupada wanted to build communities based on agricultural work... vaisya.. rural communities. Some devotees with this karma reunite themselves in a village or so and start their single activities with moments of mutual helping in periods of extraordinary work.

So naturally in this village or community the varnashrama starts to develope... not everyone will have the skills to manage, so someone will be a sudra working in the field of others... when the things will be developed someone will come in this village selling food, clothes, ice cream, rasagullas.. they will call a brahmin to start a new temple and doing gurukula... and so on... then policemen, government, mayor(ksatryas) etc

 

it is not that it has to be developed in the temple community... the word temple community is in itself strange... community is made with all the varnas, a temple is made by brahmanas.

 

"we have failed for the most part. Women, children, devotees in general, and even the cows, have suffered much abuse. This is a symptom that we are lacking in qualified leaders who are fully Krsna Conscious"

•••yes.. and the most important thing that maybe leaders, showing that they're not qualified, have not said, that there's no need to be in the temple to be krsna conscious, but as the opposite, it is impossible to be krsna conscious if we do not perform the devotional service in our natural social position given by the karma laws who are krsna's laws

 

so, summing the points, it does not seems to me that i am commenting your assertions out of context, or that i am uselessly opposing to you or so.. it seems to me that we have a very different opinion... but please correct me if you think that i am wrong

 

"but as it stands now, we are still in short supply of pure devotees who would enter the political arena and manage the masses"

•••that's the sensible point.... no devotee has to enter in political arena if he's not already there!! but we have to do our best, preaching in the priestly way if we are brahmanas, preaching mostly with the example if we are another class, that everyone in any social position meets the holy name and if he's already a politician he will start to render service in this way

 

However, the discussion was originally concerning devotees entering politics to save the world, and one person here seemed to feel that it was the highest form of preaching.

•••if this is the relevant subject i do not think that anyone has to enter in any activity that he's not already doing, and i think that the highest form of preaching is to making devotional service from our previous material activities, this is saving the world... not doing one specifical job that we will not be able to turn in devotional service simply because we are going agaist our karma

 

..... but ultimately i am sorry if i annoyed you even if it was not my intention.. please excuse me

[yasodanandana]

"I think we are in agreement here. :-)"

••and this makes me very happy!!

 

my obeisances...