ancient_paztriot Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 So that's what we mean by reducing. It means there's a simpler way to talk about it, but you're talking about the same thing. So now obviously, when we talk about brain states or we talk about these different molecules in the brain, we're not really talking about for example that I'm hungry, or I'm tired. You see? …Or I'm in love… or you see things like that. Or I'm dissatisfied. In other words… first of all scientists cannot even… they do not even know very much about the brain anyway. That's another big bluff. They know enough to make you think they know alot, uh but not enough to actually figure out what life is all about. Just enough to fast-talk people. Just like a car mechanic… you see? …he knows just enough to cheat you, but not enough to fix your car. So in the same way, we may talk about particular brain states in terms of numbers and molecules, but what about the FACT that I'm happy today… or I just saw a very beautiful thing and I'm very happy about it? So if we just give a mathematical equation talking about my brain state, that doesn't really express… Anyway, so it doesn't reduce. In other words, consciousness is irreducible. It can be analyzed. We can analyze consciousness or we can trace out certain causes and effects, but ultimately the reality of consciousness itself or the entity of awareness - no matter what we are aware of… no matter how we feel… we are conscious and that consciousness cannot be reduced down to something else… although it can be covered and uncovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 I'm off to see the Wizard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted December 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Hridy: Just like some days for example you may feel very morose or just maybe a bad day and you don't want to see anyone or here about anything or do anything… and your consciousness is very small. And some days you may be very happy and outgoing and gregarious and you may like everyone and see everything… and you see, consciousness expands. Sometimes it reduces. But what's actually happening is it becomes covered or uncovered. Just like when the sky is all cloudy, everyone gets depressed. But when the sun comes out, everyone feels happy. But the sky is always there. It's not that the sky shrinks up into a little pea and dissapears, like a tv screen, you know, where it dissapears. So in the same way, the sky is always there but it's covered. Sometimes the sky is covered. Similarly, sometimes consciousness is covered or uncovered. But it always exists and it can't be reduced down to some physical thing. Consciousness or awareness itself is irreducible. It is an essential element. It is a spiritual element. There are certain material elements. There is a chart of all elements. Isn't it? Like oxegen and hydrogen and carbon and so on? (Carbon ???… I didn't do so well in high school). So, there are a chart of physical elements that cannot be reduced. Doesn't that mean to be an element… that it can't be reduced. That's as low as you can go. It doesn't break down anymore. So similary, consciousness is a spiritual atom or spiritual quantum or an irreducible element. Consciousness cannot be reduced. The person cannot be reduced. He may be covered. He may be hidden. But ultimately his existence cannot be broken down into something else. Once you understand that, that is the basis for a having a moral society or a descent society. Because if you say we're just a bunch of atoms… So if I kill you, then I didn't didn't really kill you, I just rearranged your atoms. That's all. (laughter) Some of your electrons were here and I put them over there and what's the big deal. You see? It's just a molecular adjustment. What's the big deal? So this has always been a problem. Even in ancient civilizations, those who favored this idea the reality is simply atoms, they could never figure out how to convince people to be good… becasue if the ultimate reality is simply a bunch of billiard balls bouncing around, uh they why should people be good or honest, you see? What is the point? So the real point is that there is a souls and God and laws of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lover_soul Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 "Just enough to fast-talk people. Just like a car mechanic… you see? …he knows just enough to cheat you, but not enough to fix your car." Can you clearly explain this analogy to me, because by the way I see it , it is incorrect. Actually the scientists can cure many brain diseases through the knowledge that they have. They are exactly like car mechanics and are fixing your car, that does not mean that they know the being driving the car or the thing powering the car, but they know how to fix the car. Give them credit for something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted January 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 Actually, there have been many news broadcasts similar to "60 Minutes" that have reported on professional car rip-offs that actually cause damge to your car in order to charge you, including the well-known Sears and many others. The analogy implies that scientific empiricism that deals with knowledge, practices and objectives is totally hypocritic when dealing with life. "… the scientists can cure many brain diseases through the knowledge that they have." What do you mean by 'cure' and 'diseases'? …Drugging them out? No, seriously. I have to understand your meaning better to reply. They certainly have no profound knowledge for alot of the mental maladies of life. "Give them credit for something." The point was a well-documented excercise in cheating by those who professed to use their professional skills to cheat others. They have alot of influence by making machines and associated theory. But when they extrapolate their mechanistic empirical methods onto world views, it is not science anymore. They then become hypocrites expressing their dogma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 Yes they are very smart and have in some ways made life easier. Harder to. But they have many cheaters among them. Take cryonics for example. They emmerse the brain or whole physical body into liquid nitrogen after death under the hope that in the future they will have discovered a way to resurected that body. They charge $30,000 - $100,000 for this rip off. Under those temperatures every cell in the body is frozen to an irreparable state.They know this. They are bluffing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 That $30,000 cheapie is for the head only! Hey, I'm sure I could make space in my freezer for say, $10,000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lover_soul Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 "The point was a well-documented excercise in cheating by those who professed to use their professional skills to cheat others." In all honesty, I am going into the medical field and I do not want to enter it to make money off nor do the researchers do it for the money. If you think that making the seizures go away in diseases like epilepsy or trying to help parkinson disease patients with the use of an alternative of dopamine is something that is used to make money off of people by cheating them, so that these guys can live off of them, then you have a wrong idea. Please stop this, If you are a true devotee then worry about getting to Krishna and when you know Him then come back and say what you know. If this is my ignorance, let it be but I do not think that you are a pure devotee because of the way you speak/write post. My request to you is, keep it centered around krishna, so that you , me and whoever it is that reads this stuff stops looking at this world with a biased view, but looks with in a krishna conscious perspective. This is no "tactic", but to say that a krishna conscious person should be like a swan in the lake is a tactic, then let it be. I have no power to stop or tell anyone, I am sorry if I have offended you in anyway. <font color="blue"> HAPPY NEW YEAR </font color> /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted January 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 Lover_soul, This is a classic straw-man argument. Please don't put words in my mounth and then argue them. The pure-devotee comment just shows your naivete. NOT offended. Just think before you speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 That $30,000 cheapie is for the head only! Hey, I'm sure I could make space in my freezer for say, $10,000? lol Everybody wants a bargain. Just make sure no fuses blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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