Sanskrit translations of Prabhupad's books

[leela]

Please help me with this one. I am just an aspiring devotee with a long way to go. I am perturbed with a RAM devotee friend who argues that Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita translation may not be an accurate translation of Sanskrit.He said most people in India read some other versions of the Gita. He said Krishna is not necessarily the Supreme Personality of Godhead via Prabhupad's translations, that demi-god's such as Shiva are worshipped in India as the Supreme One. So, I said if you don't want to believe S.P.'s translations on Krishna then read Sri Brahma Samhita to understand who is who and what is what when it comes to demi-god's and Krishna. What does a RAM devotee read or chant anyway? It makes no sense to me to be a devotee of RAM & not understand that Krishn is the supreme personality of Godhead. How do experienced devotees answer such questions?

[cRimAl]

Well, I also still have a superlong way to go so I won't be able to give you an answer but I can tell you this...I wouldn't worry about it too much. Krishna has come into your life so I would just do my very best to serve Krishna.

 

I think that you can get very lost in all the rest. At least, I have been very lost in it for a way too long time.

 

Now I just want to serve Krishna and try my hardest to become a better person. I never got all that arguinh and I also wouldn't want to be a part of it, way too complicated for me.

 

But it is true. Shiva is indeed (also) worshipped as the Supreme one.

[Guest guest]

if he's more clever than srila prabhupada ask him to do what prabhupada has done for the whole world, to give you initiation and to bring you to krsna (or rama... or shiva)....

 

this is not a creative way of behaving, if he destroys your faith he have also to give you complete spiritual shelter

 

but your friend will not surely do like that so when you are together avoid these discussions and make ram bhajan or krsna bhajan together and maybe choose the subjects where you agree ... ask him to tell you ramayana stories,

 

both you are religious persons, find a common field to associate increasing your friendship

[Guest guest]

Reading this posting and the ones following it, I am very disappointed in the devotees here.

 

This is not an issue of what Prabhupada has said, or how clever he is, or how many temples he founded, etc.

 

The basic doubt is whether or not Krishna is the Supreme God. It does not matter that most people in India read someone else's translation of the Gita. Nor does it matter that everyone has some other opinion.

 

All that matters is what is actually said in Bhagavad-gita. Bhagavad-gita clearly declares Krishna to be the Supreme Brahman, the Lord of all, and the master of all devas. There is no room for disagreement. Krishna has said it, and so that is final.

 

Your "RAM devotee" friend is losing sight of this fact that Krishna's supremacy is not a matter of Prabhupada's interpretation. It is simply the crystal clear statement of Bhagavad-Gita, indeed, of all canonical Vedic literature. That Prabhupada has accepted this also is to his credit - in contrast to those who attempt to give some other interpretation that contradicts what Sri Krishna Himself states.

 

When you are challenged in this way, that is, to defend your guru's interpretation of scripture, don't panic. Simply ask the challenger to translate the Sanskrit himself and prove what the "proper" meaning is. This should silence most critics, who generally do not even know Sanskrit in the first place. If they do not even know Sanskrit, then who are they to quibble with Prabhupada's translation? It only takes a small measure of common sense to realize that you have to know a language before you can say that someone else's translation of that language is wrong.

 

And if your challenger says that so many other gurus believe differently, then request him to substantiate those other gurus' opinions with quotes (in Sanskrit) from the Bhagavad-gita.

 

It does not matter if one-million people interpret Gita in an atheistic way, and only one or two people interpret it as it is. Gita means what it says. If Gita says Krishna is Supreme Lord, then Krishna is Supreme Lord. This is not negotiable, nor is it pending approval from some democratic process. Majority opinion does not determine Absolute Truth.

 

Really speaking, there is no reason why your friend's difference of opinion should be of any threat to you. If you know the principle of obeying scripture, then you should know exactly how to respond. Is Prabhupada creating a personality cult, or did he want his followers to know the scripture as he did? Read Bhagavad-gita and force your friend to debate with you on that basis. Don't let him get away with silly arguments like "but most people have some other opinion...." What kind of idiotic criticism is that? Since when is religion a democracy? Think, people.

 

 

[Priitaa]

Haribol Leela,

 

The first thing that came to my mind was that Prabhupada left India because many there did not want to hear the truth. Its kali yuga in India too ya know. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Merely because they are doing something in India, does not mean it is correct. Acuracy is derrived from following a pure devotee in a bona fide parampara system (lineage), not whats 'popular'in India - or popular anywhere.

 

One reason your friend may find fault with Prabhupada's Sanskrit in the Gita, etc., is because it is SO refined and SO expert, that many are not 'that' educated in Sanskrit. Long story short, a godsister told me a story about Gaura Govinda Maharja. Even his previous Sanskrit teacher, a teacher respected in India as very expert in understanding the subtle meanings of Sanskrit and Gita, Gour Govinda M. showed him Prabhupada's version and this previous teacher commented that Prabhupada understood even more subtle meanings then he himself understood!

 

As for demi-god worship, that has always gone on in India but it doesn't even make sense that the 'various' demi-gods would be required to equal the power of One Supreme God.

 

However if you are speaking about Lord Shiva that is another topic, as there have been debates amongst the Krishna Bhaktas and followers of Lord Shiva since ages gone by regarding which one of them is God. ha Now, the devotees of Lord Krishna know Lord Shiva is unique in the fact that he is part Vishnu tattva and part Jiva tattva. That is part God, part regular soul like us, tho he is completely pure. We recognize Lord Shiva as the greatest Vaisnava or devotee of Lord Krishna. But those who worship Lord Shiva as if he's 100% God, they do not similarly offer much in return to Krsna Bhaktas.

 

If your friend is a devotee of Ram that does not mean he is not an impersonalist or mayavadi. Its hard to tell from the little info of him here, but it really doesn't matter. Sounds like he's doing his best to either convert you or take away all your faith if you dont convert. Best way to understand Prabhupada's books are to read them for yourself! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Regularly. Then you will always 'know' an answer to this or any such person, not based on blind faith but on factual knowlege.

[Govindaram]

 

 

..he should know Krishna/Rama/Balarama, are same person.

 

 

[cRimAl]

I think that in the end I don't even want to know. I trust Krishna and I don't even really need a book to trust Him.

Fact is, I also don't understand Him. How could I, I'm just a human with an extreme limited intelligence so understanding something like Krishna is next to impossible for me and it also doesn't matter cause I feel fine just serving Him. In a lot of cases you also don't question your parents: you do what they tell you because you know that they are older and wiser than you and because you know that they have your best interest in mind. As you grow older you will get more intelligent yourself up to the point where you can start living alone in the world? I think that spirituality and devotional service works in the same way. I see tons of people arguing and quareling about attributes and mood etc etc of the Lord which we can't even understand anyways, that's why I'm fine with just doing my service and maybe, maybe one day in a next life or something I will understand a little bit more but right now I'm really fine with being dumb...I don't think that we humans can ever grasp a concept as Krishna completely with our limited senses and intelligence.

I agree with the poster that said that we should focuss on the similarities instead of the differences cause in my humble opinion, arguing can never be beneficial for spiritual growth, especially when you are not 100% firm yet in that spiritual life.

 

Fact is: Prabhupada was a rare soul. He was an example. I want to follow his example and his words so that I could grow and maybe understand myself a little bit more and the Bhagavad Gita has helped me incredibly with that. I'm eternal grateful for that and all the rest...well, we are living in Maya, I just want to do my best I can.

 

So I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my ignorant post but in the end that's how i really feel.

 

And yes, I also like the stories about Shiva somehow. I guess that really makes me a lousy devotee now.

[Guest guest]

 

I think that in the end I don't even want to know. I trust Krishna and I don't even really need a book to trust Him.

 

 

That is a *very* bad attitude, and I suggest you change it... now. Don't think that because you eschew authoritative books in favor of blind faith, that it somehow makes you a better devotee. On the contrary, it amounts to sentimentalism, and it is just an excuse for laziness.

 

Prabhupada spent every last minute of his dying day to translate those books. Even when he had not the strength to sit, what to speak of stand, he was translating those books.

 

If he sacrifice so much just to produce those books, then it behooves you to take the time to read them. Don't make excuses about not being intelligent or whatever... those books were meant for everybody. If you don't understand something you read, then read it again.

 

 

Fact is, I also don't understand Him. How could I, I'm just a human with an extreme limited intelligence so understanding something like Krishna is next to impossible for me

 

 

That is why we have books like Bhagavad-gita --- to understand him. Why make this seem complicated? Just read the book. Prabhupada translated it, so what is your problem reading it?

 

 

and it also doesn't matter cause I feel fine just serving Him. In a lot of cases you also don't question your parents: you do what they tell you because you know that they are older and wiser than you and because you know that they have your best interest in mind.

 

 

However, such blind faith is condemned by Prabhupada in Bhagavad-gita purport to verse 4.34.

 

 

Prabhupada was a rare soul. He was an example. I want to follow his example and his words so that I could grow and maybe understand myself a little bit more and the Bhagavad Gita has helped me incredibly with that.

 

 

Prabhupada's example was to quote from scripture in order to support his views. Thus, if you are truly interested in following his example, then you should follow that as well. Prabhupada never told anyone to follow him because he was a rare soul. Although I do believe he was a rare soul, a bona fide devotee of Krishna never recruits followers by arguing on the basis of his spiritual superiority.

 

In conclusion, you cannot expect someone to follow you merely because you blindly believe in something. Blind faith is still blind faith, even if it is blind faith in the right thing. If you really want to do credit to Prabhupada's legacy, then preach as he did, rather than making excuses for your own laziness.

 

It is utterly disgraceful to Prabhupada's good name that his followers use sentimental and bullying tactics to shame others into accepting his point of view. A true Vaishnava argues on the basis of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, not on appeals to sentimentalism or peer pressure.

[aisharya]

To help others come to Krishna consciousness we must answer inquiries intelligently. The question was that the RAM devotee questioned Prabhupad's ability to translate Sanskrit accurately. Not that Krishna's word's were incorrect but was Prabhupada qualified to translate Sanskrit?

[cRimAl]

He was an example. I want to follow his example and his words so that I could grow and maybe understand myself a little bit more and the Bhagavad Gita has helped me incredibly with that.

 

That's what I said !!

 

I HAVE read Prabhupada's books; the Bhagavad Gita, the Srimad Bhagavatam, and just about every other book that I could get my hands on. Last night I was reading Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, translated by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Fact is, I'm not gonna get into a discussion about how and why I believe. And as far as preaching goes...I don't think that I'm the right person to preach to anyone...Prabhupada's books are doing that just fine I think.

 

And I'm quite aware of the fact that I'm a very imperfect devotee...however, I would never bash another devotee just because he has a different way of handling his belief than I have.

 

Doesn't the Bhagavad itself says to NOT criticize or hurt any of Krishna's devotees ? Those are Krishna's own words spoken to Arjuna.

 

However, I do thank you for the points made...cause I'm quite aware of the fact that I still have a very long way to go.

 

Krishna Ki Jai.

[Guest guest]

 

The question was that the RAM devotee questioned Prabhupad's ability to translate Sanskrit accurately.

 

 

Then let the RAM devotee translate the slokas himself and explain how he thinks Prabhupada has erred in the translation.

 

But of course, I am guessing he cannot do that, since (like many critics) he does not know Sanskrit, and can only criticize Prabhupada because Prabhupada's views do not match his own.

 

Krishna is the Supreme God. It isn't a matter of Prabhupada's opinion. Nor is it only true because Prabhupada opened 108 Krishna temples. It would still be true even if Prabhupada had opened no temples.

 

The bottom line is that it is true because it is in scripture, and that is that.

[cRimAl]

In reply to:

--

 

 

 

 

 

If you don't understand something you read, then read it again.

 

>>I did not say that I didn't understand the Bhagavad Gita: I stated that I didn't understand krishna and his incredible potency: and I will stick to what I said because I can't. I'm a human so how could I ever understand Krishna that has created the whole universe ?

I am trying my best to follow the guidance of the BG but that doesn't mean that I understand God. I know what Krishna expects of us and i will try my best I can to do that, but I will never ever try to understand Krishna before I can be a completely balanced person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is why we have books like Bhagavad-gita --- to understand him. Why make this seem complicated? Just read the book. Prabhupada translated it, so what is your problem reading it?

 

 

>>I don't have a problem reading it. Not at all even? I think you have taken my post the complete wrong way. I'm very sorry if I did not write out my feelings well enough.

Maybe I can hide behind the excuse here that I'm Dutch and English isn't my first language so I can't always express myself the way I would like to. I'm sorry about that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Although I do believe he was a rare soul, a bona fide devotee of Krishna never recruits followers by arguing on the basis of his spiritual superiority.

 

>> ANd I also never said that He did that. I myself see Prabhupada as a rare soul. Fact is, if he would have said it himself I probably wouldn't have felt this way.

 

It is utterly disgraceful to Prabhupada's good name that his followers use sentimental and bullying tactics to shame others into accepting his point of view. A true Vaishnava argues on the basis of Bhagavad-gita As It Is, not on appeals to sentimentalism or peer pressure

 

>>I really don't see just where I would have used bullying tactics but again, if I did then I'm very sorry.

 

But like I said, arguing is not my thing. (anymore) And that's another good lesson I learned from Prabhupada.

 

And having said this I now bow down to you with folded hands: Hare Krsna !!

Krishna Ki Jai.

[Guest guest]

I was responding specifically to the person who made this remark:

 

 

if he's more clever than srila prabhupada ask him to do what prabhupada has done for the whole world, to give you initiation and to bring you to krsna (or rama... or shiva)....

 

 

 

In retrospect, I now suspect this was not you. Still, my points still stand - one must preach based on scripture, and not by appealing to Prabhupada's accomplishments as proof. There is a reason why Prabhupada preached as he did, and his followers would do well to follow his example rather than inventing some new method.

 

The attempts to appeal to Prabhupada's spiritual superiority smack of the same kind of personality cults that center around most other Hindu Swamis. One who is made to understand the scripture will understand Prabhupada's spiritual position, but not before that.

 

 

 

[gHari]

The Upanishads explain that all incarnations and expansions are God, just as many candles are lit by one candle; all are candles in every respect, but only one candle has lit each candle. Different devotees will have preferred attraction to various forms of God. Hanuman will always prefer to serve God in His Lord Rama personality. However, Krsna is clearly the primal form of God, the primal candle, the source of all others as stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (Bhagavata Purana) 1.3.28:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>ete cAMza-kalAH puMsaH

kRSNas tu bhagavAn svayam

indrAri-vyAkulaM lokaM

mRDayanti yuge yuge

</center>

ete--all these; ca--and; aMza--plenary portions; kalAH--portions of the plenary portions; puMsaH--of the Supreme; kRSNaH--Lord KRSNa; tu--but; bhagavAn--the Personality of Godhead; svayam--in person; indra-ari--the enemies of Indra; vyAkulam--disturbed; lokam--all the planets; mRDayanti--gives protection; yuge yuge--in different ages.

</font>

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord SrI KRSNa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.

 

PURPORT

In this particular stanza Lord SrI KRSNa, the Personality of Godhead, is distinguished from other incarnations. He is counted amongst the avatAras (incarnations) because out of His causeless mercy the Lord descends from His transcendental abode. AvatAra means "one who descends." All the incarnations of the Lord, including the Lord Himself, descend on the different planets of the material world as also in different species of life to fulfill particular missions. Sometimes He comes Himself, and sometimes His different plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions, or His differentiated portions directly or indirectly empowered by Him, descend on this material world to execute certain specific functions. Originally the Lord is full of all opulences, all prowess, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation. When they are partly manifested through the plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions, it should be noted that certain manifestations of His different powers are required for those particular functions. When in the room small electric bulbs are displayed, it does not mean that the electric powerhouse is limited by the small bulbs. The same powerhouse can supply power to operate large-scale industrial dynamos with greater volts. Similarly, the incarnations of the Lord display limited powers because so much power is needed at that particular time.

 

For example, Lord ParazurAma and Lord NRsiMha displayed unusual opulence by killing the disobedient kSatriyas twenty-one times and killing the greatly powerful atheist HiraNyakazipu. HiraNyakazipu was so powerful that even the demigods in other planets would tremble simply by the unfavorable raising of his eyebrow. The demigods in the higher level of material existence many, many times excel the most well-to-do human beings, in duration of life, beauty, wealth, paraphernalia, and in all other respects. Still they were afraid of HiraNyakazipu. Thus we can simply imagine how powerful HiraNyakazipu was in this material world. But even HiraNyakazipu was cut into small pieces by the nails of Lord NRsiMha. This means that anyone materially powerful cannot stand the strength of the Lord's nails. Similarly, JAmadagnya displayed the Lord's power to kill all the disobedient kings powerfully situated in their respective states. The Lord's empowered incarnation NArada and plenary incarnation VarAha, as well as indirectly empowered Lord Buddha, created faith in the mass of people. The incarnations of RAma and Dhanvantari displayed His fame, and BalarAma, MohinI and VAmana exhibited His beauty. DattAtreya, Matsya, KumAra and Kapila exhibited His transcendental knowledge. Nara and NArAyaNa RSis exhibited His renunciation. So all the different incarnations of the Lord indirectly or directly manifested different features, but Lord KRSNa, the primeval Lord, exhibited the complete features of Godhead, and thus it is confirmed that He is the source of all other incarnations. And the most extraordinary feature exhibited by Lord SrI KRSNa was His internal energetic manifestation of His pastimes with the cowherd girls. His pastimes with the gopIs are all displays of transcendental existence, bliss and knowledge, although these are manifested apparently as sex love. The specific attraction of His pastimes with the gopIs should never be misunderstood. The BhAgavatam relates these transcendental pastimes in the Tenth Canto. And in order to reach the position to understand the transcendental nature of Lord KRSNa's pastimes with the gopIs, the BhAgavatam promotes the student gradually in nine other cantos.

 

According to SrIla JIva GosvAmI's statement, in accordance with authoritative sources, Lord KRSNa is the source of all other incarnations. It is not that Lord KRSNa has any source of incarnation. All the symptoms of the Supreme Truth in full are present in the person of Lord SrI KRSNa, and in the Bhagavad-gItA the Lord emphatically declares that there is no truth greater than or equal to Himself. In this stanza the word svayam is particularly mentioned to confirm that Lord KRSNa has no other source than Himself. Although in other places the incarnations are described as bhagavAn because of their specific functions, nowhere are they declared to be the Supreme Personality. In this stanza the word svayam signifies the supremacy as the summum bonum.

 

The summum bonum KRSNa is one without a second. He Himself has expanded Himself in various parts, portions and particles as svayaM-rUpa, svayam-prakAza, tad-ekAtmA, prAbhava, vaibhava, vilAsa, avatAra, Aveza, and jIvas, all provided with innumerable energies just suitable to the respective persons and personalities. Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum KRSNa to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But SrI KRSNa is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakAza, tad-ekAtmA up to the categories of the avatAras who are all viSNu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatAra nor Aveza nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes. But the jIvas, or the individual living beings in different statuses of life, possess up to the limit of seventy-eight percent of the attributes. In the conditioned state of material existence, the living being possesses these attributes in very minute quantity, varying in terms of the pious life of the living being. The most perfect of living beings is BrahmA, the supreme administrator of one universe. He possesses seventy-eight percent of the attributes in full. All other demigods have the same attributes in less quantity, whereas human beings possess the attributes in very minute quantity. The standard of perfection for a human being is to develop the attributes up to seventy-eight percent in full. The living being can never possess attributes like Siva, ViSNu or Lord KRSNa. A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, ViSNu or KRSNa. He can become a BrahmA in due course. The godly living beings who are all residents of the planets in the spiritual sky are eternal associates of God in different spiritual planets called Hari-dhAma and Maheza-dhAma. The abode of Lord KRSNa above all spiritual planets is called KRSNaloka or Goloka VRndAvana, and the perfected living being, by developing seventy-eight percent of the above attributes in fullness, can enter the planet of KRSNaloka after leaving the present material body.</blockquote>

[cRimAl]

I was responding specifically to the person who made this remark:

 

 

 

 

But that was written by a guest while I write under Crimal.

[Priitaa]

 

That is a *very* bad attitude, and I suggest you change it... now. Don't think that because you eschew authoritative books in favor of blind faith, that it somehow makes you a better devotee. On the contrary, it amounts to sentimentalism, and it is just an excuse for laziness.

 

 

You might want to lighten up on Crimal. He is a new devotee and just trying to figure these things out for himself as well.

 

 

In conclusion, you cannot expect someone to follow you merely because you blindly believe in something. Blind faith is still blind faith, even if it is blind faith in the right thing. If you really want to do credit to Prabhupada's legacy, then preach as he did, rather than making excuses for your own laziness.

 

 

And I really dont think we should be calling anyone lazy, or anything, unless we know for a fact they are.

[cRimAl]

Thanx Priitaa. I have to admit that the post kind of hurt me cause I'm in no way trying to offend anyone and I definitely don't feel better than anyone else...the opposite would be more true.

I know that I make a lot of mistakes but I can only say in my defence that I do love Krishna with my whooooole heart.

[Guest guest]

"the same kind of personality cults that center around most other Hindu Swamis. One who is made to understand the scripture will understand Prabhupada's spiritual position, but not before that."

••the point is that the criticisms of prabhupada by the friend of the devotee who has started the debate are not serious and not made by people who are seriously doing something for others as srila prabhupada did

 

in spiritual culture there's no gossip.. or easy hipotesis (what if krsna were yellow instead of black???").. in spiritual culture one has to be serious, if one wants to criticize he has to make a loyal challenge based on culture and behaviour..

 

so if one criticizes prabhupad, krsna, the pope, dalai lama, mother teresa, jesus, st francis , martin luther and so on he has to be precise, correct, cultural, exemplar.. that's the point.

 

to destroy the faith of so many people in these leaders is a big responsability and it has to be done carefully and in a constructive way... this is the essence of the culture, not that one raises the hand and says : "for me st francis had a pink dress and sunglasses"

[Priitaa]

Crimal,

 

I suspected your feelins were hurt, which is why I posted what I did. I didn't think they knew you were new tho, but also needed to slow down in order to find out.

 

Too often those who have been around a while are lashing out about a genuine problem but they are lashing out to the wrong person. Its called disassociation. Its kinda funny tho (not in the 'ha ha' way), because often they mention how we are not considerate of the new devotee, (usually because they were mistreated) when it is the new devotee they are blasting! /images/graemlins/smile.gif So, of course that should stop. But until it does, try to not let it get to you. Take it with a grain of salt and know that even older deovtees have their issues.

 

Similarly older devotees should not take advantage, and should remember that newer devotees tend to look up to us often with more credit then we deserve! ha I remember before I moved into the temple, I viewed the 'devotees' as close to pure devotee status! Boy was I in illusion. lol However it was respectful. After all, they 'did' give up their material sense gradification to live the ashrama lifestyle. Simply older devotees need to remember the new comers take our words more seriously then we take each others, therfore we need to be thoughtful before we type a personal reply to them.

 

And I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do or sound authoratarian. This is just my opinion and my experiences. Others may be different.

[cRimAl]

"and should remember that newer devotees tend to look up to us often with more credit then we deserve"

 

That is so true !

I think that I have always (and maybe still?) looked up too much to devotees, but why shouldn't I ? When I first got into KC I took pretty much every kind of drug that I could get my hands on, except for crack and heroine that is. I've been on more acid trips than I can remember and I have smoked enough pot in my life to last me five lifetimes, so yes, to me, the devotees were a huge source of inspiration, people that I looked up to, people that I wholeheartedly admired, people that inspired me to become free of addictions myself...And even when I got hurt by certain devotees I still didn't mind because I always respected them so much. Yeah, now that I think about it, I still feel the same way...simply because I know of myself that I will never ever succeed in this lifetime to become a vaishnave, there's too much dirt on my soul for that...but that doesn't take away that I love Krishna...I mean, I think about Him every moment of the day almost and to me the devotees have always been Krishna's representatives so ofcourse I looked up to them with great respect and I will continue to do so.

 

The thing is: I love humans...and I will never ever be able to look down upon a human because he/she is not a vaishnava. I think that a lot of devotees may see this as a brutal crime or offence but that's just the way I have always felt...and I want to use what I have learned in KC and through Krishna to help as many people as I can...

 

You know: it's said that there's many different relations to have with Krishna, one of them being hurt the whole time because you feel that something is missing in your life. That's pretty much how I feel. I feel hurt every second, I miss Krishna every second and that's why I so love to hang out at temples, being around other devotees, but at the same time I also get hurt there because they can sometimes say awfuly hurtful things: I remember being in a . some years back and some devotee was explaining how we shouldn't see women as beautiful creatures but as guts and blood and intestines so that we wouldn't be attracted to them, well, personaly I think that something like that is extremely painful to hear...

 

Anyways, I'm drifting off...

And besides, I know that some of my words may also be very offending to other devotees, and I really don't want to hurt anyone like I said.

 

Maybe sites like these aren't realy meant for me in the end...there's too many pure devotees here and I really don't want to bring any negativity to this place.

So again, I'm really sorry if I have done so.

 

Krishna Ki Jai.

[Priitaa]

Crimal,

 

Interesting post, but please dont feel you could never make it as a Vaisnava because of all the dirt on your soul. First, there is never any dirt on anyones soul. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It is always pure and perfect, merely covered over by the illusory energy like dust on a mirror. Its not as hard to clean that mirror as one might think, because Prabhupada has made it easy. There is no sin one can commit which chanting Hare Krishna can't free you of. I actually read that in the Bhagavatam.

 

As for all you did in the past, some of the older devotees you look up to, many were hippies of the 60s! They did everything and more, then renounced it to become Krishna conscious. So if others can do it, you can do it.

 

I dont know about a relationship of suffering between Krishna and the devotee. There are five main ones, and Prabhupada explained that we do not know/remember what is our original, eternal relationship, and that we should just get into the relationship of worship and awe. When it gets refined or if we are meant to return to a previous, specific relationship, Krishna will let us know when the time comes. Until then, we really are not so much to worry about which relationship we have with Krishna but instead simply to worship Him in all the greatness that is His.

 

Sites like this are definitely places you should continue to come. And pure devotees here? haha All pure devotees on these boards, please raise your hand. ..... Looking around..... Nope, dont see any making that claim. .... /images/graemlins/smile.gif We are all in the fire trying to get purified. If you leave the association of devotees, even if its out of fear you are making an offense (when all else are saying you are not), then you will miss out on the purification process. There is one folk-rock song a devotee wrote, I forget the exact words, but I remember the meaning. He says that it is maya that tells people they are not pure enough to do yada yada. -- So just hang in there. We all go thru this but its only by sticking together via association that we gain in knowledge and purity.

 

As for sexist comments from some devotees, there will always be devotees who say or do nonsense to puff themselves up. As long as we know that is not the philosophy, who cares what they think? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[cRimAl]

Wow, I don't really know what to say know except for...thank you and bless you a bazillion times over. You keep coming up with all these amazing words that comfort me like a warm blanket on a cold winternight.

 

It's people like you that give me the strenght and courage that I need to keep going.

 

Krishna Ki Jai !

[Bhaktavasya]

 

After being away from this forum for a long time, I read through this thread and realized that some things never change! Whether it was in the temples or on the forums, there is the soft-hearted, 'simple' devotee (Crimal)who wants to love and serve Krishna regardless of whether or not he can 'prove' Krishna is God by citing scripture, the 'heavy-handed' devotee (Guest)who will always 'chastize' younger or 'less senior' devotees (without realization that if another devotee is hurt or 'turned away' from association with Lord Caitanya's mercy mission, how can Krishna and Radharani be pleased?)and the inevitable kind-hearted devotee(Priitaa)who rises to the occasion to encourage and give spiritual comfort to those rare souls who are seeking the mercy of the Vaisnavas.

 

All glories to the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord, who are just like the wish-fulfilling desire trees in the spiritual world, able to fulfill the desires of everyone and are filled with compassion for all the conditioned souls!

 

Jai Radhe Jai Krishna Jai Vrndavan

[Guest guest]

Wow, was surprised to read that. Well, thank you both Bhaktavasya and Crimal. But really, I can't take credit. I only repeat my spiritual master Srila Prabhupada. He was always so compassionate and understanding. Repeatedly he found ways to keep everyone engaged or bring us to the temple as often as possible. So many times someone would say "But Prabhupada, I did yada yada wrong thing" or "I am just too fallen," and Prabhupada would give a reply that encouraged them in one way or another: "Thats all right, you just do this thing and everything will be all right." What mercy and compassion! If it wasn't for him, I would know zero, zip, nada. I can't even begin to imagine what type of life I would be living without him. Srila Prabhupada ki jai! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

YS,

Priitaa dd