What is scripture?

[Guest guest]

It is logical to conclude that the Vedas were authored because they contain conversations between historical personalities, rishis and kings. It is foolish to think that a revealed text just happened to include the name of the Rishi's son in it. What an strange coincidence! It makes it convenient for the Rishi that the revealed eternal sound happened to contain his sons name in it so that he could repeat it in a conversation to his son without it making no sense.

 

[theist]

 

 

That is not true. Acceptance of unauthoredness is only logical, as there is no evidence of an author, nor is there even evidence of a tradition of considering them authored.

 

 

 

 

Since I have never seen or even heard of any book existing without an author I would have to disagree that your point is logical.

 

Anyway I will avoid any further discussion on this particular point as I bore easily these days of excessive words and argumentation.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

I once had a friend in iskcon who used to be atheist and then got interested in Bhakti-yoga thanks to meeting iskcon devotees. I thought it was great. But he thought his guru in iskcon was a "pure devotee," and he insisted that everyone follow his guru because of this. Then later he admitted that his guru was engaged in some unspeakable degraded activity, and so he "lost faith" and left iskcon. I asked him why he no longer practiced bhakti-yoga, and he replied that since his guru was not a pure devotee like he thought, that he didn't care anymore for the philosophy.

••••why we all have to pay the karma of you meeting an unfortunate and not so expert devotee? why are you building all this big speculation on what we think about vedas, gurus, tradition, god on your single experience?

 

So was his guru a "pure devotee" before and then changed? Or was he never a pure devotee in the first place?

•••never

 

My friend now thinks he has to find a "pure devotee," whose "pure devotion" is self-evident, before he can accept anything that the Vedas say. Apparently, he was taught that...

•••apparently means nothing.... if your friend opens a prabhupada's book he read that the spiritual science is brought by the conjoint effort of guru, shastra, sadhus... we control the autenticity of the guru in shastra and we confront him with the behaviour of the acharyas, we learn the shastras by the mercy and the interpretation of the guru and the tradition, we take a tradition as authentic because it fits in the siddhanta spoken by guru and the study of vedas

 

No one of this aspects is the biggest...... we have to pray krsna to send us a pure uttama adhikari otherwise on of the three points is lacking and there's not real advancement in knowledge, realization and behaviour

 

so do not identify him (even if higly respectable, saint and strong to be survived to the great challenge to be fallen in the hands of a cheater.. then abandoned) with all "modern" gaudya vaishnava sampradaya

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Since I have never seen or even heard of any book existing without an author I would have to disagree that your point is logical.

Anyway I will avoid any further discussion on this particular point as I bore easily these days of excessive words and argumentation."

....our expert friend is fallen in a strange game of world jugglery... everyone has said in wich meaning we say that the author is krsna, that is is an emanation, not an historic creation..

 

the reality has not birth, reality is eternal, vedas are real and they are eternal... the source of any reality is krsna bhagavan.. this source is emenating, sustaining, giving power, spreading, preaching the vedas in all the universe

 

eternally, no start, no end, no authoring in a material/human/darwinian sense

 

even we poor iskcon fanatics know this truth from the 2nd or 3rd week of practice in krsna consciousness

 

hare krishna

 

[Guest guest]

 

There is no evidence of an author for the Allah Upanishad either. There has never been a tradition of the Allah Upanishad being considered authored.

 

 

 

Please show me an oral tradition of "Allah upanishad" that has history which can be independently verified by other paramparAs. That being said, there are indeed cases of disputes about which portions are apaurusheya and which not like the mAndukya kArikAs, but the concept of apaurusheyatva is itself not null and void. Thus if you bring out a "Spice Girls Upanishad" tomorrow, you may find yourself being an object of recreational laughter by *all* such traditions.

[Guest guest]

 

 

On what basis can you say it was known in the past that these folk songs were authored? The songs do not state an author, but you presume there is an other (and it must have been known in the past). On what basis?

 

[Guest guest]

 

Thus the unauthoredness of Vedas requires faith on the part of believers

 

 

 

It requires faith to suggest there is an author for a work which has an independently verifiable reputation of unauthoredness.

[Guest guest]

 

My point of view is not that the Vedas are authored, but that their source is Krishna. Why should one logically conclude that the Vedas (or any text) is authored? Because our direct experience (however faulty it may be) is that every literature we have come across has been authored by someone or some people. Our direct experience is that no literature has ever been found to self-manifest, nor has there ever been a literature found or proven to be eternal beyond faith. Acceptance of a literature as eternal or unauthored requires faith, a faith that goes against direct experience and inference.

 

 

 

Day to day experience does not support the idea that something will be measured to have the same speed irrespective of how fast you move. Day to day experience will not say that something can have a probability of passing through a wall (potential barrier).

[theist]

This is from the on-line dictionary. Fully examination of the word may be more helpful.

 

 

Main Entry: [1]au·thor

Pronunciation: 'o-th&r

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English auctour, from Old North French, from Latin auctor promoter, originator, author, from augEre to increase —more at EKE

14th century

1 a : one that originates or creates : SOURCE <software authors> <the author of this crime> b : capitalized : GOD 1

2 : the writer of a literary work (as a book)

- au·tho·ri·al /o-'thOr-E-&l, -'thor-/ adjective

 

Surely we all can agree that scripture originates with God.

[Guest guest]

 

 

There is ample evidence, such as language usage, variations due to shakas, citations of historical events, etc. Thus even in India now there is a "tradition" among scholars to accept the Vedas as authored. If this tradition continues for 1,000 years it would become a "long tradition" and based on your logic would be undisputable proof that the Vedas were authored. Bizare logic in my opinion.

 

[Guest guest]

 

We have no evidence that faults are only caused by authors and absence of an author would result in no faults. It is another step of faith.

 

 

 

In case of randomly created sentences, the fault lies in the random process which cannot distinguish between truth and untruth and publishes in any case. If you say there is nothing to suggest that fault in a work requires a faulty creation process, then I say ok, find me a case where a work is faulty irrespective of the process of creation behind it (or no creation for it), if you cannot find me one, the converse is established. you cannot give me faulty "folk songs" because then you need a tradition there and and which is also accepted by other traditions.

[theist]

 

Vedänta is the last word in Vedic wisdom, and the author and knower of the Vedänta philosophy is Lord Krsna;...

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Thus even in India now there is a "tradition" among scholars to accept the Vedas as authored. If this tradition continues for 1,000 years it would become a "long tradition" and based on your logic would be undisputable proof that the Vedas were authored. Bizare logic in my opinion

 

 

 

Far fetched hypotheses establish nothing in case of these scholars just as darwin's theory is just a theory with little possibility of ever being falsified. However you have climbed up the wrong tree. There may be n number of traditions considering the Vedas to be authored, but we are talking about inter-tradition accepted recorded history considering a piece to be un-authored. To side step this piece of evidence is taking a big leap of faith.

[Guest guest]

sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto

mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca

vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham

 

I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas I am to be known; indeed I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

 

The author of vedanta is supposedly badarayana. So there are no issues here. But Krishna does not say the same for the veda, he does not say veda-krt. He did not say he is the author of veda. If he was indeed the author of veda he could have just as well have said that. He, as Ved Vyas, is the author of Vedanta, so if he was indeed the author of Veda, why be shy of saying so. Instead he carefully says, veda-vit --knower of veda

[Guest guest]

 

The Vedas themselves establish an end to the material world (universal disolution), whereby everything is put into a state that transcends time. Therefore the eternal existence of the Vedas requires belief of an existence beyond this universe wherein the Vedas reside during disolution. If one wants to propose that the Vedas are eternal one must establish the existence of this timeless realm beyond the universe wherein the Vedas reside eternally. To think such a conclusion is established logically simply because the Vedas don't declare themselves to have an author is foolish.

 

 

 

Once it is established that the Veda is unauthored and because it is unauthored it is faultless, then we will have a reasonable basis of putting faith on the Veda's own words that there exists a timeless realm.

 

vedAste nityavinnatvAt.h shrutayashcha akhilaiH shruteH |

AmnAyo ananyathA pAThAt.h IshabuddhiH sthitAH sadA ||

-- mahAvArAha upanishhad.h

 

The Vedas are called `veda' for being eternally-present; because they are always "heard" (rather than composed), they are called `shruti'; they are called `AmnAya' for being recited without difference (i.e., for being unchanged over all time) -- they have all these qualities because they are present in the mind of Ishvara (Vishnu) at all times

[Guest guest]

 

There are variations in the recitations based on various shakas and paramparas. This would suggest that there is adulteration. The other alternative (which requires more faith) is that there are alternate versions of the same text eternally.

 

 

 

That which is not independently recorded history is not entertained. How many of you proponents of "scholarship in modern history" have taken time off to examine the concept of oral traditions of Shruti??!!!! or are you repeating something which you have learned in modern day universities in the west?

[Guest guest]

 

If 90% of the Vedas themselves are lost, then knowledge of the authors could also have been lost over thousands of years.

 

 

 

Wherefrom one gets the information that 90% of the veda has been lost. No doubt one has to look into some Vedic litrature to find the original count of the works. If one finds its convenient to accept this piece of information, why should one be free to reject statements of the Veda about itself i.e. it being eternal and changeless.

[Guest guest]

 

It is logical to conclude that the Vedas were authored because they contain conversations between historical personalities, rishis and kings. It is foolish to think that a revealed text just happened to include the name of the Rishi's son in it. What an strange coincidence! It makes it convenient for the Rishi that the revealed eternal sound happened to contain his sons name in it so that he could repeat it in a conversation to his son without it making no sense.

 

 

 

What is so strange here. No amount of argumentation can lead one to have conclusive knowledge about things which are beyond the grasp of the senses - indriya-ateeta. Decision on these things will follow once we have agreement on what constitutes a valid source of knowledge!

[Guest guest]

 

Apaurusheya means having no source from a human ("purusha"). This does not mean something is unauthored. That is the conclusion of an interpreter or commentator. Thus one cannot state the Vedas to be authorless without basing it on the interpretations of an authored text. Another case of circular logic and faith.

 

 

 

apaurusheyatva is svattah siddha. Its reasoning manifests itself when defects in one's reasoning process are removed.

[Guest guest]

 

then knowledge of the authors could also have been lost over thousands of years.

 

 

 

Is it logical that the author of meghdutam, Kalidas is forgotten in next 2 thousand years? Is it logical to assume that knowledge of author of vedanta, badarayana is forgotten in next 10,000 years when they were not forgotten in a couple of 1000 years till now? Then how do we say that author of Shruti is forgotten and that to with evidence that flies in the face of the opposition. It can be said that the author did not write his name to the work, then there is no reason to accept it as unauthored in case there is no good reason to do so and that excludes all kinds of allah upanishad. And if it is accepted by people who have no reason to be sympathetic to each other, rather to the contrary where acceptance of a work is detrimental to one's philosophy, it is to be understood that the works are indeed unauthored.

[Guest guest]

 

There may be n number of traditions considering the Vedas to be authored

 

 

 

not to forget they have to put up their case for examination also.............

[ancient_paztriot]

Philosophy Discussions with Syamasundara

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. There is one common observation also in science. They say that nothing can come out of nothing. That is already there. But it is not known, due to our imperfect senses.

Prabhupada: That is science, we do not know.

Syamasundara: Nothing can come out of nothing.

Prabhupada: Nothing. If something has come out, then background must be something. Therefore our definition is janm¢dy asya yatau [sB 1.1.1], everything, the root cause, the original source, is the Brahman, Absolute Truth. So whatever we are exhibiting, just like the other day, whatever we are thinking, there is some existence. Otherwise it cannot come to our ideas and thinking. The same scientific theory: nothing can come out of nothing.

Syamasundara: So if you are thinking of something, then it is already there.

Krsna Kanti: The scientists say they haven’t created something. They have..., we’ve discovered something.

Prabhupada: That’s it. That I also said the other day. We can say we have discovered. We cannot invent. America was discovered, not invented. The land was already there.

Bhavananda: We want to claim credit.

Prabhupada: Anyone does something new, he takes credit. [break] ...so sun is taking away life. Why you were not present when we were discussing this verse?

[ancient_paztriot]

We must know the present need of human society. And what is that need? Human society is no longer bounded by geographical limits to particular countries or communities. Human society is broader than in the Middle Ages, and the world tendency is toward one state or one human society. The ideals of spiritual communism, according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, are based more or less on the oneness of the entire human society, nay, of the entire energy of living beings. The need is felt by great thinkers to make this a successful ideology. Srimad-Bhagavatam will fill this need in human society. It begins, therefore, with the aphorism of Ved¢nta philosophy janmady asya yatau [sB 1.1.1] to establish the ideal of a common cause.

Human society, at the present moment, is not in the darkness of oblivion. It has made rapid progress in the field of material comforts, education and economic development throughout the entire world. But there is a pinprick somewhere in the social body at large, and therefore there are large-scale quarrels, even over less important issues. There is need of a clue as to how humanity can become one in peace, friendship and prosperity with a common cause. Srimad-Bhagavatam will fill this need, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society.

Srimad-Bhagavatam should be introduced also in the schools and colleges, for it is recommended by the great student-devotee Prahlada Maharaja in order to change the demoniac face of society.

 

(Sanskrit) (Bhag. 7.6.1)

 

Disparity in human society is due to lack of principles in a godless civilization. There is God, or the Almighty One, from whom everything emanates, by whom everything is maintained and in whom everything is merged to rest. Material science has tried to find the ultimate source of creation very insufficiently, but it is a fact that there is one ultimate source of everything that be. This ultimate source is explained rationally and authoritatively in the beautiful Bhagavatam, or Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Srimad-Bhagavatam is the transcendental science not only for knowing the ultimate source of everything but also for knowing our relation with Him and our duty toward perfection of the human society on the basis of this perfect knowledge. It is powerful reading matter in the Sanskrit language, and it is now rendered into English elaborately so that simply by a careful reading one will know God perfectly well, so much so that the reader will be sufficiently educated to defend himself from the onslaught of atheists. Over and above this, the reader will be able to convert others to accepting God as a concrete principle.

Srimad-Bhagavatam begins with the definition of the ultimate source. It is a bona fide commentary on the Ved¢nta-sütra by the same author, Srila Vyasadeva, and gradually it develops into nine cantos up to the highest state of God realization. The only qualification one needs to study this great book of transcendental knowledge is to proceed step by step cautiously and not jump forward haphazardly like with an ordinary book. It should be gone through chapter by chapter, one after another. The reading matter is so arranged with its original Sanskrit text, its English transliteration, synonyms, translation and purports so that one is sure to become a God-realized soul at the end of finishing the first nine cantos.

The Tenth Canto is distinct from the first nine cantos because it deals directly with the transcendental activities of the Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna. One will be unable to capture the effects of the Tenth Canto without going through the first nine cantos. The book is complete in twelve cantos, each independent, but it is good for all to read them in small installments one after another.

I must admit my frailties in presenting Srimad-Bhagavatam, but still I am hopeful of its good reception by the thinkers and leaders of society on the strength of the following statement of Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.5.11):

 

“On the other hand, that literature which is full with descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant to bring about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though irregularly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.”

 

Om tat sat

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Dated at Delhi

December 15, 1962

[Guest guest]

The nature of flaw is analyzed in making such a claim -- specifically, it is shown that flaw is not a self-same property of a statement (or of a perception or of an inference); if it were, then every source of

knowledge would always be incorrect in everything, and no correct knowledge would ever be possible.

 

A flaw in a statement therefore is a product (kArya), though not a material one like an earthen pot. However, like an earthen pot, the action of its causal factors is needed to create it. In the case of a pot

such factors are well known. In case of flaws in statements, one can similarly find causes to be ignorance, deceit, incorrect understanding, etc., on the part of the person(s) involved.

 

As a consequence of this, it follows that there is a tight correlation between flaws in a statement and those in the person creating it; a statement not by a certain Yajnadatta is not flawed on account of Yajnadatta's flaws. By universally instantiating this rule, a statement that is not created by any person whatsoever has no source of flaw, and is thus flawless.

 

[ancient_paztriot]

From the net…

 

The Vedas represent the spiritual experiences of the Rishis of yore. The Rishi is only a medium or an agent to transmit to people the intuitional experiences which he received. The truths of the Vedas are revelations. All the other religions of the world claim their authority as being delivered by special messengers of God to certain persons, but the Vedas do not owe their authority to any one. They are themselves the authority as they are eternal, as they are the Knowledge of the Lord.

 

Lord Brahma, the Creator, imparted the divine knowledge to the Rishis or Seers. The Rishis disseminated the knowledge. The Vedic Rishis were great realised persons who had direct intuitive perception of Brahman or the Truth. They were inspired writers. They built a simple, grand and perfect system of religion and philosophy from which the founders and teachers of all other religions have drawn their inspiration.

 

The Vedas are the oldest books in the library of man. The truths contained in all religions are derived from the Vedas and are ultimately traceable to the Vedas. The Vedas are the fountain-head of religion. The Vedas are the ultimate source to which all religious knowledge can be traced. Religion is of divine origin. It was revealed by God to man in the earliest times. It is embodied in the Vedas.

 

The Vedas are eternal. They are without beginning and end. An ignorant man, may say how a book can be without beginning or end. By the Vedas, no books are meant. Vedas came out of the breath of the Lord. They are not the composition of any human mind. They were never written, never created. They are eternal and impersonal. The date of the Vedas has never been fixed. It can never be fixed. Vedas are eternal spiritual truths. Vedas are an embodiment of divine knowledge. The books may be destroyed, but the knowledge cannot be destroyed. Knowledge is eternal. In that sense, the Vedas are eternal.