loosing spiritual knowlegde?

[Govindaram]

 

Hare Krishna

 

When a devotee apparantly 'falls-down', then his trancendental knowledge is lost?

 

I heard a lecture a long time ago, by a devotee, that when a person becomes 'wayward' he looses knowledge, so i was thinking this has to be bad, because with-out, trancendental knowledge how can you practice Bhakti-yoga?

 

<font color="red"> _____ <font color="pink"> _ </font color> _____ </font color>

|Radio Krishna|

 

 

[theist]

we can always become covered by maya or uncovered and showing our innate spiritual opulence.That choice is eternal. It is part of our nature, tatastha,marginal.

 

Anything temporarily covered can be re-revealed by Krsna.

[ancient_paztriot]

The fallen devotee still has 'knowledge' he previously gained. Nothing is lost in the sense that he still remembers. His experience is not negated by a fall. The merit is also there. The fall is indicative of neglegience to Krsna, that's all. You no longer have His intimate association and it's many perks …like PEACE.

 

The devotee is certainly lacking in 'wisdom' if he no longer has that dynamic connection. Relationships have to be maintained. Get careless or neglectful and…

 

It is not easy to please Krsna in this sense… because He demands it all!

 

Wisdom is what is needed… that meshing of intelligence and desire. That ability to act in Krsna consciousness is just that… Krnsa consciousness. The process is the goal. Isn't it ironic that you have to SEE EVERYTHING AS KRSNA first before you can properly serve Him?

 

It is a process of killing yourself (the material identity). So we think we are preserving ourselves by resisting …because we think too much of ourselves - even though we are scared and alone. (The world is growing darker every day).

 

We try to walk, but stumble and fall. We may even spend more time on our rumps as we try to walk. But through determination and persistence we will succeed if that's what we want.

[livingentity]

begins with the chanting of the holy names.

[Govindaram]

 

"The fallen devotee still has 'knowledge' he previously gained."

--

 

Like Living Enity Mata said, the start is chanting Hare-Krishna, but after this the precepts of Bhakti-Yoga are revealed to you, and if you temp 'fall-down', then surely the knowledge is lost, and can be re-gained by appropriate methods, i mean i.e i know lord krishna is lord, but do i really' know it?..i don't of-cource this is what i am saying. Haribol!

 

[armisael108]

This made me think with walking.

 

You can falldown, but do you lose your walking ability? Depends right... you can break a leg if it is a very bad falldown, so temporarily you lose it.

 

Now the worse is... if you falldown, at least don't give up right? If you trip while walking, do you say "ahh to damnation with walking it is useless afterall." Same with bhakti yoga... if the devotee decides to give up, then the knowledge is lost.

 

That's my humble opinion.

[ancient_paztriot]

I have seen many devotees succumb to the enjoying propensity of spiritual bliss. They think they can enjoy because it's spiritual …forgetting they should have equanimity of mind.

 

I have seen many bewildered faces after the fall of spiritual bliss… crash and burn stuff.

 

The doer and the witness. A very deep subject.

 

armisae108, you said…

 

"… if the devotee decides to give up, then the knowledge is lost."

 

Interesting point. But what about that no loss or dimunition verse in the Gita?

[Govindaram]

 

I have seen many devotees succumb to the enjoying propensity of spiritual bliss. They think they can enjoy because it's spiritual...forgetting they should have equanimity of mind.

--

 

wow, thats a good point, i had to re-read, its both funny, and makes a point, but you said it is a deep subject, maybe you should explain more, about this on another thread?

 

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

So I guess one thing we're pointing out it's… I think it's very dangerous this radical separation which is a new one in our modern society between knowledge and saintliness, knowledge and virtue. It's a distinction which would have been practically incomprehensible to ancient people, whether in the West or the East. They wouldn't have even understood it. It seemed like the same thing to have knowledge, to be good, to be saintly, to be intelligent. That issue cannot be entirely separated from the issue of what knowledge is the real knowledge. In other words the knowledge which somehow leads to widespread destruction, both of the human spirit as well as all of our buildings and everything else which may happen. So somehow… In other words, even though it may be true, there must be some sense in which it's not the best knowledge that human beings can acquire. It gets back to choice. There are many things you can study and that interest in understanding things better, how do things really work and so on and so forth. Of course we're… we want to know. But um it's very dangerous unless… without a… In other words let me say if we were spiritual people, if America were more of a spiritual country or other countries and we had firm roots in spiritual understanding, perhaps we would have more of that freedom to explore the universe even in a mechanistic way and it would be alot of fun. And we could find out lots of interesting things and… Even in our movement for example, there are some members of our movement who love that kind of thing you know. I mean they love nothing more than to take apart a bicycle and see how it works or read a book on science. They love it because that's there… you know there are different kinds of people in the world. But… but there's no safeguard. And of course… as the point you keep making is … it's a valid one… is application is one thing and just knowing something because we want to know is a different thing, that things can be misapplied. But um that is the danger I think or the problem nowadays that.

Guest: Yeah, and in fact this may be a distinction that's no longer really tenable. I mean that's the point that you're making.

Hridy: Yes. Things are out of balance I think. There's no… If there were a spiritual center, all these things could be utilized spiritually. Just like we have this microphone here which we're using or I fly on airplanes, I have a watch. I'm not denying the advantages and the benefits of what… of technology and so on. And I've taken advantage of science in many ways. I do daily. Everyday I take advantage of science. And I also – like any other person – I enjoy hearing you know what really makes a leaf turn green or what really makes the sky blue or… it's fun to know those things. But uh of course there's also… we have an ultimate explanation beyond that, but I think any reasonable person takes pleasure in knowing these things and wonders about them himself. If the spiritual science can be understood by thinking people… and it is a spiritual science rather than just uh a dogma or uh belief. Spiritual science in this sense. And this on a level you can understand very much and appreciate… that when people let's say chant Hare Krsna, when people do what we say they should do, it modifies their behavior in a very positive way. For example the fact that people can come to this institution and follow the austere principles and be happy about it, feel very satisfied… I mean of course that's almost like uh… that should tell a psychologist that something is happening in the consciousness of that person. Something is happening. If you can get control over yourself in a positive way, become a good person, become a self-controlled person and develop that type of purity that um… Even I think on a material level you can understs… you'd have to say that something is taking place. Something is happening.

Guest: Yeah I think that is something uh psychologist are not… would be able to respond to and understand. But it still comes off as Gee, you know, that's interesting. Uh you're right. But I could never do that or well you know I've… It's like there's other things. I mean you… you know? Taking different life-style patterns do have an affect on people and change the behaviors. And I've seen people give up uh bad habits for a long period of time and certainly I don't know exactly what happens. Sometimes it's uh, it's a religious change. Sometimes it's… I don't know what it is.

Hridy: Right.

Guest: There's no question that there are real changes in behaviors that come from people changing the way they think about what they're doing or what they think is important.

Hridy: And the advantage of this to a scientists is that there are things which occur at random and sporadically without any discernible pattern. But when you get that same type of thing taking place in a pattern situation, a systematic context, it lends itself much more to science. In other words you may know someone who gave up smoking all of a sudden. As William James said, if you're going to give something up, do it dramatically and all at once. So someone may just give up smoking. But that… things like that may happen very sporadically and for different reasons, but if you have an institution or a context where it's going on very systematically and so on, in a controlled situation, that lends itself much more to scientific inquiry.

So the… So if people could… if the spiritual science could be restored in society, then I think science would also be much healthier. 'Cause scientist themselves are very much worried about applications and things. The whole world is a little monstrous and a little instance. And uh it's becoming a very dangerous situation which is of course just a manifestation of… I think there is a need. There is a need. And also from the ethical point of view, if a scientists doesn't take the position of saying well I just… I'm absolutely convinced there is no god, there's no soul… which I think that's not the majority of people that would just go on record as swearing there isn't any such thing. So if there's the possibility that there is such a thing, it seems like there would be the duty of an honest philosopher or thinker to find out is that true, what's it actually all about. To make… Of course there's always the danger what if I loose my mind, what if I get it. But it seems like perhaps in a cautious way, a very cautious and mature way, that sincere thinkers should try to understand what is the full range of reality. Because without… without understanding that, um there can be no such thing as an objective decision about anything. In other words you can perceive something, you can say that mechanistically this functions this way, even the human psyche. We would agree that psychology is scientific in this sense that we are conditioned by material nature and therefore we are… our minds are controlled a great extent by mechanistic aspects of the material world and therefore fall into mechanistic patterns which can be analyzed and perceived by psychologists. So I would agree with you there is a real basis for a science of the mind. Uh materially though, for real material science of the mind. But ultimately if you want to get beyond conditioning… In other words not only say this person's conditioned in this way uh to act in a particular way, to respond in a particular way, but to get to the point of freedom. And human beings are always interested in freedom to get mental freedom or psychological freedom, uh freedom of consciousness. Then it's difficult materially. Because freedom implies a nonmechanistic model. What… in fact what would be, even theoretical, what would be mechanistic freedom? What would that even mean?