More on Knowledge

[ancient_paztriot]

Guest: …needing a bicycle part, just to see how… I mean I've known people who've gotten a bicycle, they take it apart. It's the first thing they do? Relative right? You know like most people would do. They sit down and take the thing apart. And now they understand how it works and they put it back together and then they do something to it. ???

Hridy: I would say if that were put in perspective, that impulse or that proclivity, if it were in a perspective, I think it would be harmless and even helpful. I'm sure even in the most God conscious society there's people who love to see how things work and they probably… and there's nothing wrong with that if they uh… there's nothing bad about that. It's one aspect of intelligence.

Guest: Hm hmm.

Hridy: I think what's happened is that… I would say historically – making a venture into historical analysis – on the one hand you had a religious system which I think philosophically was very weak. And on the other hand you had the greatest outburst of uh technology and so on that… at least within our history we

I've never seen anything like it. All of a sudden so many spectacular inventions and so on and so forth and… And so I think what happened is naturally… Well it's obvious what happened.

Guest: The vacuum got filled.

Hridy: Yes. That science came up so quickly with so many spectacular discoveries that uh… that they enjoy a uh a prestige which it seems would have to corrupt any body of human beings who weren't rue saints.

Guest: Interesting point on the corruption. There was a public television show recently on the uh bioengineering, genetic-engineering um… and it turns out that in contrast to almost every other scientific field, this is one in which as soon as they start dabbling with this, big chemical companies realize that there would be lots of money involved. And they actually made deals with the scientists to come in as part of a corporation as a combine or a uh whatever… And it's really… it's the first time I know of in what I call legitimate science where at the point the discoveries were just being made, the scientists got involved in uh access to the patents. And now they have this arrangement by which the companies which support the research – and that includes often some of the scientists who are doing it – have direct access to their first dibbs on any patent or anything that can be patentable and they share the proceeds. And I think that's the ultimate in… in the way of bad ethics in science. Because then there's no way ever to really separate out doing what you're doing because you enjoy it and you think it's exciting and you think it's new knowledge from doing what you're doing because there's a million bucks in it for you. Um and then ???. Once you mix them, you can't ever really take them apart.

Hridy: Hm hmmm.

Guest: It's no longer a uh… then the scientists then loose their credibility as whatever their suppose to be; objective observers.

Hridy: This interest is the search for knowledge think.

Guest: Yes.

Hridy: It's interesting in the uh… in the Vedic culture and also in the ancient Greek culture, the uh… the scholars or the thinkers, the scientists, the philosophers, were never salaried. In fact one of the… There was an outrage against the sophists in ancient Greece because they were uh being paid for their teaching. And that actually caused an outrage among the true philosophers. That it was very… it was a corruption. And certainly in the Vedic sense uh there's one very strong verse in the Bhagavatam where uh the great sage Sukadeva uh he warns his fellow sages and saints that uh don't go and flatter the wealthy people. Don't flatter the government, don't flatter the wealthy businessman. Better you go out in the forest and live austerely uh because you'll spoil your saintly life… or your philosophical life. So it is a fact that uh nowadays because of the way the world is you know we can't really go off in the forest. It's all private property anyway. So there's…

Guest: ???

Hridy: So certainly… I mean I can understand this is very difficult, what can you do? That's the way the world is. But it is a fact that the lack of an in… truly independent body of thinkers. It's almost like it just… it's almost like if they approach… as you said if I approach a typical scientists or scholar and start saying spiritual, as you said, that response which will ensue well, I don't want to talk about that. So you wonder how much of that is related to the fact that all the… he's tied into a system where he's fighting for his prestige and his reputation and his money and his this and his that.

Side 2

 

…which has nothing to do with what he's fighting for in life. And uh so I think the lack of as both of you actually pointed out, the lack of a truly independent, a truly free thinking group of men, let's say the best men, the most intelligent men who are actually free to really think what is really the truth and to consider it very freely without any fear. Fear let's say… other than the fear of… that they may be reproached by other intelligent free thinking persons, not the fear of being reproached by businessmen and government bureaucrats and so on and so forth. So that's something which is… what you pointed out we don't have in our society. There is not… there may be free thinking people, but they're insignificant. They have no position, they have no… they have no importance whatsoever, socially… they have no access to public opinion, they're not in the median.

Guest: They end up being taxi drivers…

Hridy: Yeah.

Guest: … or live in New York or that long shoreman. Several years back…

Hridy: Oh Era? What was his name?

Guest: This you know… you know… views you know… became a philosopher through local nook. And they truly are free thinkers and have no obligations. Um, now these are not necessarily the best thought.

Hridy: Yes. That's true. In India… Again getting back to that… that in India there is no dichotomy between philosophy and religion. So in India all the great… In India the same word means saint or sage. In other words, it… even in Spanish or Portuguese for example if you say a person is educated,???, it means he's well behaved, he's a gentleman. He's uh educated, ???. It means he's well behaved, he's a gentleman, he's very… Isn't it? In Spanish or Portuguese if someone is rude or course or just behaves badly, they call him ???, badly educated. So… and of course Socrates said virtue is knowledge. In other words it's… it's knowledge that makes one a good person, it's a higher understanding.

 

So I guess one thing we're pointing out it's… I think it's very dangerous this radical separation which is a new one in our modern society between knowledge and saintliness, knowledge and virtue. It's a distinction which would have been practically incomprehensible to ancient people, whether in the West or the East. They wouldn't have even understood it. It seemed like the same thing to have knowledge, to be good, to be saintly, to be intelligent. That issue cannot be entirely separated from the issue of what knowledge is the real knowledge. In other words the knowledge which somehow leads to widespread destruction, both of the human spirit as well as all of our buildings and everything else which may happen. So somehow… In other words, even though it may be true, there must be some sense in which it's not the best knowledge that human beings can acquire. It gets back to choice. There are many things you can study and that interest in understanding things better, how do things really work and so on and so forth. Of course we're… we want to know. But um it's very dangerous unless… without a… In other words let me say if we were spiritual people, if America were more of a spiritual country or other countries and we had firm roots in spiritual understanding, perhaps we would have more of that freedom to explore the universe even in a mechanistic way and it would be alot of fun. And we could find out lots of interesting things and… Even in our movement for example, there are some members of our movement who love that kind of thing you know. I mean they love nothing more than to take apart a bicycle and see how it works or read a book on science. They love it because that's there… you know there are different kinds of people in the world. But… but there's no safeguard. And of course… as the point you keep making is … it's a valid one… is application is one thing and just knowing something because we want to know is a different thing, that things can be misapplied. But um that is the danger I think or the problem nowadays that.

Guest: Yeah, and in fact this may be a distinction that's no longer really tenable. I mean that's the point that you're making.

Hridy: Yes. Things are out of balance I think. There's no… If there were a spiritual center, all these things could be utilized spiritually. Just like we have this microphone here which we're using or I fly on airplanes, I have a watch. I'm not denying the advantages and the benefits of what… of technology and so on. And I've taken advantage of science in many ways. I do daily. Everyday I take advantage of science. And I also – like any other person – I enjoy hearing you know what really makes a leaf turn green or what really makes the sky blue or… it's fun to know those things. But uh of course there's also… we have an ultimate explanation beyond that, but I think any reasonable person takes pleasure in knowing these things and wonders about them himself. If the spiritual science can be understood by thinking people… and it is a spiritual science rather than just uh a dogma or uh belief. Spiritual science in this sense. And this on a level you can understand very much and appreciate… that when people let's say chant Hare Krsna, when people do what we say they should do, it modifies their behavior in a very positive way. For example the fact that people can come to this institution and follow the austere principles and be happy about it, feel very satisfied… I mean of course that's almost like uh… that should tell a psychologist that something is happening in the consciousness of that person. Something is happening. If you can get control over yourself in a positive way, become a good person, become a self-controlled person and develop that type of purity that um… Even I think on a material level you can understs… you'd have to say that something is taking place. Something is happening.

Guest: Yeah I think that is something uh psychologist are not… would be able to respond to and understand. But it still comes off as Gee, you know, that's interesting. Uh you're right. But I could never do that or well you know I've… It's like there's other things. I mean you… you know? Taking different life-style patterns do have an affect on people and change the behaviors. And I've seen people give up uh bad habits for a long period of time and certainly I don't know exactly what happens. Sometimes it's uh, it's a religious change. Sometimes it's… I don't know what it is.

Hridy: Right.

Guest: There's no question that there are real changes in behaviors that come from people changing the way they think about what they're doing or what they think is important.