guru in training

[mahak]

I do agree that one should follow in the footsteps of Srila Prabhupada, especially in regard to the eventuality that one takes on the extra duties of initiating disciples. Srila Prabhupada's concern was that we refrain from such activity while he was with us, that we should lead our disciples to him for initiation. Fact is, whether we like it or not, we all have disciples, those who choose to hear from us. When we speak, we should be seeking methodology of trying to inject Vaisnava principles and realizations into everyday conversation with the people in general. If not, we are just making useless noise, better to practice mauna (silence).

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly states that those who tell others of the taste of prasadam at a Sunday Feast are preachers to the highest degree, and his only recommendations on how far we take our preaching activities are not to preach to those who reject (pearls before swine) and not to preach above our levels of realization. In other words, if one doesn't know he is not the body, do not try to talk about the gopis (or even God, for that matter). When I opine about one who begins a preaching mission, and his subsequent right to accept disciples, I state that his proof of bonafidelity (there goes mahaksadasa, making up words again, but I really like the word "bonafidelity") is how he is pleasing to his bona fide spiritual master.

 

In the old days, when Srila Prabhupada was still giving darsana here, some of his disciples did not want to remain subserviant, creating their own form of so-called bhakti. They changed their own names (that were given by HDGSP) to new, "better ones" like Indra and Siva, no dasa following. Their activities were, IMHO, truely sahajiya, the tears were contrived, a show only. They held kirtanas, but all glory was stolen to shine around their personalities. And, yes, fools fell for it, and the joints were passed around, the acid was taken, and the tears truely flowed, and the tunes were quite catchy. It was a show of monkeys at the zoo. And, of course, the orgies followed. The only thing missing was the service to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga. They are all gone now, either dead from STD's or bad drugs, or born again so-called Christian Republicans bent on murdering innocent Iraqis. Krsna was just a trip of the sixties, like jefferson airplanes.

 

Yet, there is still the duty of carrying on parampara, by following the order of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, by becoming guru and saving the sleepers. And, though the guru MUST instruct the disciple to pay obiesance to gurudeva (if he doesn't accept obiesancies, how will his disciples follow guru-shastra-sadhu instruction to do so), he must always set the example of Sri Siksastakam, as did Srila Prabhupada. Two verses from "Mercy Ship", a song previously sung here, can give better purport than a new paragraph:

 

 

All the holy men came to show the way

Many people listened to what they had to say

Some of them insane, some went to other things

Did not know the difference between soldiers and kings

But You did not come to advertize Your name

You had no pressing need, no desire for selfish fame

You had what YOU WERE GIVEN, and to me You bring

Matchless gifts if I would only dance and sing

 

The Vaisnava Acarya advertizes The Supreme Lord, not himself. His fame comes by Sri Govinda's reciprocation, and if fame is not there, he is NOT IN ANXIETY over it, because he knows his guruship is part and partial to the Supreme Lord's desire, as Chaitagurudeva, who leads disciples to him without extraneous effort. Lord Jesus Christ is example, replying "Only Abbah is good", deferring praises to His Father. Srila Prabhupada succinctly followed suit, always saying, "I am but an old man" and "I am not perfect, but the message I give is perfect, that is my only perfection". Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the incarnation of Sri Sri Radha Krsna, and fully cognizant of that fact, nevertheless, as example, covered His ears and ran away from those who refered to His Visnu Tattva feature, for it was rasa bhasa (conflicting to the flavor He incarnated specifically to taste). The point is, Srila Prabhupada, though accepting guru-puja as duty (Sanatana Dharma), did NOT pose himself as the all in all. He was given Krsna by his guru, and worshipped them both as connected in YOGA, and he delivers to us the same. When we FOLLOW, we see them connected in YOGA, we pray all glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, non-separate.

 

Guru job ain't easy, if one does take on this bhakti, he must not play the object of worship, or he will mislead those who came to him in good faith. When disciple becomes purified by the holy names, he gradually realizes the link between Guru and Gauranga, and their non-separation (acintya-bheda-bheda-tattwa).

 

As far as the works of my fellow disciples go, I do not possess, therefore cannot judge. Articles presented herein show that it is possible that one or more, or even many, disciples of Srila Prabhupada are capable of becoming bonafide spiritual masters in their own right, and have been initiated to do just that, otherwise Srila Prabhupada had no need to even speak to us. As far as individuals who attempt to give Krsna to others, cheaters and those desiring to be cheated naturally attract, and the bond cannot be broken because of their affinity toward one another, so we need not make them our business, unless we wish to defeat their proposals (in which case, we become guru of both). We can take great relief to know that Sri Sesa Balarama, Nityananda Prabhu, is busy seeing to it that attraction takes place between the Vaisnava Acarya and his bonafide disciple as well.

 

Words, words, words, but what else can I do. I repeat another devotee's sentiments that the words of the disciples of a bonafide spiritual master are most inspiring, so helpful in my daily attempts to speak on behalf of my Guru Maharaja, not just here to the choir, but to all who happen to have their ears in my way. Prasadam is tasty, that is how I preach, sharing lasagna offered to the Lord to workmates. If talks about UFO's takes place, I talk about Lord Brahma, not just the four-direction one, I give tribute to the speculative quantum physics speculators by verifying that there are dimensions with millions of directions, as verified by the million faced Lord Brahma. Srila Prabhupada gives us so much, how can we keep quiet?

 

 

[Guest guest]

uttama adhikari = guru

 

the training is a lila, the bona fide guru comes already trained from the spiritual world

[gHari]

That was a very sane Max. Thank you, Mahaksa dasa for freeing up some time and sharing your depth of perception with us. As always it was very motivating, and generated a feeling of hope, of promise for the future.

 

Somehow or other we must all turn to God. Some don't want to lose their buzz, some couldn't stand losing their pride, some feel guilty for their passions and sins, but somehow we all must turn to God. Our best friend, He will not spurn us.

 

Keep dancing and singing, Mahak, like a beautiful white elephant, decorated with matchless gifts.

 

Hare Krsna

 

gHari

[stonehearted]

Guest: the training is a lila, the bona fide guru comes already trained from the spiritual world

 

Can you tell me where in shastra we can find support for this assertion? Why am I so bold as to ask this? Because Srila Prabhupada tells us, "The process of speaking in spiritual circles is to say something upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying." This is in his purport to Bg. 17.15.

[Bhaktavasya]

Mahak;

You made the following assertion:

"In the old days, when Srila Prabhupada was still giving darsana here, some of his disciples did not want to remain subserviant, creating their own form of so-called bhakti. They changed their own names (that were given by HDGSP) to new, "better ones" like Indra and Siva, no dasa following. Their activities were, IMHO, truely sahajiya, the tears were contrived, a show only. They held kirtanas, but all glory was stolen to shine around their personalities. And, yes, fools fell for it, and the joints were passed around, the acid was taken, and the tears truely flowed, and the tunes were quite catchy. It was a show of monkeys at the zoo. And, of course, the orgies followed. The only thing missing was the service to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga. They are all gone now, either dead from STD's or bad drugs, or born again so-called Christian Republicans bent on murdering innocent Iraqis. Krsna was just a trip of the sixties, like jefferson airplanes."

 

It sounds like a parallel universe from the one remember 'when Prabhupad was still giving darshan'. Which initiated disciples are you referring to, who changed their names, did lsd and performed partook in orgies. Who is 'they' who are all gone?

 

It would seem that the first qualification of a genuine guru or spiritual teacher is that he or she speaks the truth for the benefit of all. What you have written sounds like 2nd or 3rd hand gossip or rumours of individual devotees from different eras (before Prabhupad left and after), with perhaps kernals truth exagerrated and (in the case or orgies) made up.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class. "

(CC (BBT 1975) Madhya 24.330)

 

"Unless one is a resident of Krsna-Loka, one cannot be a spiritual master. "

(SPL Mukunda Das, 10/6/1969)

 

[Guest guest]

"In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master."

 

"Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such eternal associates of the Lord; but anyone who follows the principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above mentioned group. The gurus from nature's study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts everyone as expansion of his guru. That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like Radharani, sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated ‘acharya’ and ‘guru’ cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as 'guru' and 'acharya' by strictly following the disciplic succession."(A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. 26th April, 1968. Letter to Janardana dasa. New York)

 

 

Guru is only one. Guru means, as you explained,

 

ajnana-timirandhasya

jnananjana-salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena

tasmai sri-gurave namah

 

 

One who eradicates the ajnana, andhakara, darkness. In the darkness, if somebody brings lamp, ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya... The jnana-rupa, torchlight, he's guru. So maybe of different degrees, but anyone who opens the spiritual eyes, he's guru. So... But in the sastra it is said, gurur api karyakaryakam ajanatah. If I accept some guru, but if later on it appears that he did not know what is to be done, what is to be not to be done, then Srila Jiva Gosvami says that such guru: parityago vidhiyate. Such guru should be rejected. But it doesn't matter that degree. Actually, if the guru teaches Krsna consciousness, then he may be in lesser degree, but he's accepted as guru. There is no question of rejection. Because Krsna is actually jnana. One who teaches Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, "One has to know Krsna, one has to surrender to Krsna," this kind of teaching is required. And if the guru says that "I am Krsna. Everyone is Krsna," then, "daridra-krsna, daridra-narayana," he is not a guru. He's not a guru. He's misguiding. Misguiding. Avaisnavo gurur na syat. This is the shastric injunction. Sat-karma-nipuno vipro mantra-tantra-visaradah. A... Generally, a qualified brahmana becomes guru. That is natural. Brahmana is the head of the society. So he is... And without becoming brahmana, nobody can become guru. That is also fact. Because brahmana means brahma janatiti brahmanah, one who knows Brahman, Brahman. So guru must be a brahmana, mean a qualified brahmana, not born-brahmana, so-called brahmana. Qualified brahmana. So still, brahmana's qualification, sat-karma, pathana pathana yajana yajana dana pratigraha. So sastra says that sat-karma-nipuno viprah. If one vipra is quite expert in executing the six kinds of business, and mantra-tantra-visaradah, and very well known in the Vedic mantras and hymns and everything complete, but if he is avaisnava, if he is not Vaisnava, he does not know visnu-tattva, or krsna-tattva, then he cannot become spiritual master. Avaisnavo gurur na syad vaisnavah sva-paco guruh. But if a Vaisnava, one who knows visnu-tattva, krsna-tattva, even if he's born in the family of sva-paca, the dog-eaters, candala, he can be accepted as guru. So the real test is whether the guru is a Vaisnava, whether he know the science of Krsna.

 

"To spread Krsna consciousness, one need only be cognizant of the science of the spirit soul. It does not matter whether one is a 'brahmana', 'kshatriya', 'vaishya', 'shudra', 'sannyasi', 'grhastha' or whatever. If one simply understands this science, he can become a spiritual master… Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura also states that although one is situated as a 'brahmana', 'kshatriya', 'vaishya', 'shudra', 'brahmacari', 'vanaprastha', 'grhastha' or 'sannyasi', if he is conversant in the science of Krsna he can become a spiritual master as 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru', 'diksa-guru' or 'shiksa-guru'. One who first gives information about spiritual life is called the 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru' or spiritual master. The spiritual master who initiates according to the regulations of the 'shastras' is called 'diksa-guru', and the spiritual master who gives instructions for elevation is called 'shiksa-guru'… Sometimes a caste 'guru' says that 'ye krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya' means that one who is not a 'brahmana' may become a 'shiksa-guru' or a 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru' but not an initiator 'guru'. According to such caste 'gurus', birth and family ties are considered foremost. However, the hereditary consideration is not acceptable to 'Vaisnavas'. The word 'guru' is equally applicable to the 'vartma-pradarsaka-guru', 'siksa-guru' and 'diksa-guru'. Unless we accept the principle enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krsna consciousness movement cannot spread all over the world."(Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Chaitanya Charitamrta Madhya lila 8:128 purport.)

[mahak]

Haribol, bhaktavasya, none of this is gossip, it was first hand observation. I cover the individuals because they made their choice, and it serves no purpose to reveal who they were. Those who know me, know the old navy motto, loose lips sink ships, so I do not reveal the names of temple presidents who became mercenaries and fought against sandinisthas, nor do I reveal the names of those who may have been government agents tasked with the destruction of the hare krsna movement. So why should I reveal the names of these sahajiyas who just decided to do their own brand of Krsna Consciousness with massive drug use. I do know the individuals were very partial to Jayatirtha, so they probably joined up with him later.

 

This stuff all happened outside the walls of any formal asrama, and the wife swapping I knew about was mild compared to stuff that happened within the walls of some organizations.

 

The gist of my article was not what you picked out, it is just a statement about how temporary it all can be if, while we are in the inquisitive, miserable, or poverty stages of engaging in actual devotional service, we do not become wise. Only the wise can maintain devotional service, the others will fall off as their inquisitiveness, misery and poverty diminish.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

Haribol, in my article, I have asserted that many if not most of us are gurus, whether we like it or not. This has been our commission from the day we became interested in krsna consciousness.

 

As far as the big and little guru designations, this is useless verbage in the context of what our training actually is.

 

We are taught of ships, and captains of such ships, and we are also taught of lifelines. If we are holding on to the lifeline the captain of the ship has thrown us, others may see that connection, and want us to throw them a lifeline as well. So, there are lines coming from disciple, and these lines are perfectly able to rescue anyone attached as long as disciple holds on to the one cast by the capn of the ship.

 

Some want to have us believe that we can never be successful as Srila Prabhupada clearly desires for all of us. He tells us what is dear to krsna, as he tells arjuna on the battle site, but the re3visionists say that we can only be so dear, and that the other endearing qualities are for the "uttama adhikari", as if such a being is like a space being or a God that we have no business emulating or following in such footsteps. This is utter nonsense. Srila Prabhupada would have never told us of how we can make disciples of Krsna all over the world if he thought this was impossible. Srila Prabhupada has made pure devotees, anyone who refuses to acknowledge such a fact must state that srila prabhupada is a failure.

 

Or maybe such persons think that we do not come from the spiritual sky either, and maybe they think that nitya bhaddha (eternally conditioned souls) are lost causes, so just call them names and give up on them, because eternally away from Krsna meaqns forever, doesnt it. Or maybe nitya siddha (eternally liberated souls) classification does not include narada muni or anyone else who describes existance in the material realm.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS If we care not to give shelter to those who seek us out, who will. Who can you send them to, and if so, why are we not already there as well.

[Streetstraw]

"In due time, due to modification, deviation and concoction, any organised religion shall tend toward atheism."

Hellish planets are chock full of reincarnated false gurus, fake swamis, boisterous grhasthas, pompous priests, ruru rabbis, machiavellian ministers...

[Bhaktavasya]

 

Well, it certainly is a new revelation to me that some initiated devotees were taking lsd and engaging in orgies while Prabhupad was here. Of course, I'm not omniscient but such news usually filtered into the main devotee congregation and temple presidents would use falldowns of various devotees as examples of what to watch out for during classes.

I guess I got defensive because the (indeed) gossip going around about Jayatirtha when I was with him was that everyone was having sexual orgies, in front of the Deities no less, and there wasn't a shred of truth to it. And for the record, Jayatirtha didn't start taking lsd until 5 years after Prabhupad left the planet. I do admit, in retrospect now, that there certainly was a lot of sahajiyaism involved in Jayatirtha's camp but nothing as outrageous as was rumoured from the pulpit of certain Iskcon temples at the time.

 

As for 'becoming guru', my understanding is that not everyone is meant to give disksha, but we are all asked to give Krishna Consciousness according to our realizations to whoever is submissive to hear.