Tolerance And Freedom Of Worship

[ancient_paztriot]

I am concerned about directing people to ISKCON. I want them to get the knowledge. But I don't want them cheated. It still doesn't look good after the experience of their many mistakes. (This is controversial, but I it's an important topic for the devotees, so here goes… )

 

January 5, 2004   VNN8508  

 

Tolerance And Freedom Of Worship

 

BY GAURAPRIYA DASI

 

EDITORIAL, Jan 5 (VNN) — Tolerance and freedom of worship in public ISKCON temples

 

Srila Prabhupada stated when asked in an interview with Mike Robinson (Interview found online here)

 

"Do you admit anyone to your movement?"

 

Srila Prabhupada: "We admit anyone regardless of race, religion, economical situation or anything else. We only ask those living in temples as "full-time" devotees to follow our rules and take part in temple programs. Otherwise anyone can become a member of congregation, live outside the temple and visit our programs when he likes and follow the rules according to his abilities. If they follow a stricter standard they can make their home into a center."

 

In my recent experience, with the ISKCON temple and congregation of Boise, Idaho, this principle is not being honored. On November 30, 2003, while my family and I attended a Boise ISKCON Sunday public feast, Ananta Rupa dasa, Boise temple president, approached me. He asked if I was still following Narayana Maharaja. I replied, Yes, he is my Gurudeva.' He then said, I've been told to tell you, you may not come here. I asked, Who said this? His reply, The GBC. He finished by saying we must restrict our coming to only festival times such as Janmastami.

 

My primary understanding of ISKCON's purpose in serving the divine mission of the founder acarya, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, is to perpetuate his intent to spread Krishna consciousness. This includes the establishment of temples meant for public chanting, distribution of prasadam, darshan, and that are open to all regardless of race, religion, economical situation or anything else. Congruous to the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I believe ISKCON temples were established for the upliftment of all humanity.

 

I became an active member of ISKCON, at the age of 18 with my initiation by Ramesvara Swami at the Los Angeles ISKCON Temple. 26 years later I am still aspiring in my pursuit of Krishna consciousness. I have 2 devotee daughters, one of whom recently birthed her first child. We are a three- generation devotee family. The Boise ISKCON temple is the only Radha Krishna Temple in our area. Our desire to attend ISKCON Sunday services is to worship as a family.

 

I am aware of your policy regarding my beloved spiritual master, Srila Narayana Maharaja. I am eager to see this discrimination abolished. As a lifelong aspiring devotee, my heartfelt wish is that ISKCON honor the inclusiveness and tolerance of Srila Prabhupada by allowing anyone, including the disciples and followers of Srila Narayana Maharaja, to attend ISKCON temple public functions.

 

Often, through the years, I have heard many senior devotees stress that the Krishna consciousness movement is non-sectarian. In my study of Srila Prabhupada's books I have never read that public worshipping in ISKCON temples is exclusive to his initiated disciples, or, exclusive to the disciples of his disciples. I believe Srila Prabhupada entrusted his ISKCON to his disciples expecting them to maintain the gracious dignity and integrity, which he exemplified.

 

If I were to enter any church, synagogue, or mosque, I would be welcome to pray and worship, irrespective of my faith. In my opinion, as a reputable international religious organization ISKCON has an obligation and responsibility to allow people from all walks of life admission to their temples.

[Dervish]

On the one hand, you have sincere devotees from various non-ISKCON Gaudiya missions who just want to have some association, see the deities, and take prasadam. They're not concerned with politics.

 

On the other hand, you have some devotees who somehow have this belief (sadly, a belief propagated by senior devotees) that it is their duty to go to places like ISKCON and guide devotees away from that institution to their own, with the eventual goal of 100% conversion of ISKCON. I've known devotees who have bragged about their "conversion" potencies.

 

Personally, I don't see why they'd want to go to this temple. As someone who is not initiated by an ISKCON guru, it feels very uncomfortable to go to their temples. Even if you mind your own business, the eyes are trained on you. One just has to be strong, and get as much association as they can elseware.

[ancient_paztriot]

Yeah, I hear you. I feel the politics are heavy too.

 

So the leaders end-up manipulating the devotees then? They're not free to follow their inspiration? Thus, the title of this post.

 

I wonder why other maths get the ISKCON devotees, but not the other way around. Maybe I already know.

 

I've been away from ISKCON for awhile - another refugee. Anybody have an update?

 

"Even if you mind your own business, the eyes are trained on you."

 

I guess they resent people not liking their guru policy.

 

I think If Prabhupada appeared to sort things out, he'd do more than just chide the management. I think he'd send some ass*s flying!

 

My personal delima: how to propagate Prabhupada and not the present political foolishness - even indirectly. I won't present Hridayananda as a pure devotee or even promote his guru status… though I very much admire his accomplishments and command of the general spiritual philosophy… People will take that different ways. No. I don't want to defend him on a guru level.

[Dervish]

"I guess they resent people not liking their guru policy."

 

While I certainly don't agree with their policies in that regard, I don't feel I project any sort of dissatisfaction during those rare times when I associate in such temples or with such devotees. At most, I may betray a longing to have things different, but in the rare event that I've been to an ISKCON temple in recent years, I've respected the fact that it is their temple, and it is not my place to make grievances.

 

I can even remember 2 ecstatic naga sankirtans I've participated in in the past 2 years in ISKCON communities where the people were less sectarian. Which brings me to ask ... is it possible for all of the Gaudiya Saraswat sampradaya to come together, even for one day, and have everybody humble and open enough not to challenge one another's missions and not lord over, either? If this could happen, I think it would be the single most ecstatic gathering.

[ancient_paztriot]

I don't want to get into grievances against ISKCON (as you say), but I was a team player for some time. The early ISKCON years of Prabhupada's preaching were nothing less than awesome. But then, after he left and his presence was overshadowed by those less capable, the players were then told the game is now as "WE" decide by the other players. I think it is our duty to Prabhupada and Krsna to complain - really - until Prabhupada's rules are restored. Why can't we play like we used too? Because some authorities insist their rules are Prabhupada's rules just as the people in the American government professes to represent the people. I know Prabhupada well enough to know his contempt for conditioned gurus. He spoke of it many times.

 

But that's like trying to turn the government around.

 

"Is it possible… "

 

Well, I guess if it's possible for us, it's possible for everyone too. How are you doing? Actually, we are all cheating… or we would be a little more sensitive to Krsna's desires. Anything short of say, samadhi, cheating? Is our position secure? I understood that we're fair game to Maya as long as we don't have Krsna's presence in our mind… 30 years and counting for some of us.

 

I guess if everyone can take care of their own, then we won't be alone. Kulapavana says we're all to blame. Probably, those that know us don't take us seriously after awhile.

[Guest guest]

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/IntJan29_04.html

[ancient_paztriot]

I have a strategy. It would be nice to have it confirmed by the devotees.

 

Prabhupada's original volumes should go online so he can continue preaching. I mean the text on screen. (In my case, I would direct book sales to ISKCON who owns the copyrights).

 

My new idea: I have to discuss the guru issue within ISKCON history briefly along with the knowledge above so that newcomers reading Prabhupada will come to ISKCON with their EYES OPEN. This will not be pleasing to ISKCON.

 

Now assuming a website with Prabhupada's materials is a success in reaching people, this may force ISKCON to come clean.

 

I say Prabhupada's disciples should do just this. Let ISKCON fight each and every godbrother over the right to propagate thier beloved spiritual master IF THEY DARE!

 

Now there's potential here to expose government, devastate business assumptions and rectify spiritual institutions.

 

Fate? Can we determine our own fate?

[Kulapavana]

maybe the tolerance policy with respect to visiting temples outside your matha should be based on traditional Vaishnava etiquette still alive in India. why concoct anything if a standard is already there.

[ancient_paztriot]

I think the temples should be open to all who who can respect the persons and property at the temple.

 

The temple is not like a gated community. It is open to all… becasue God's house is everyone's house! Everyone has the right to the dieties in Kali-yuga now.

 

Now anything less than that is politcs. It is not religion.

 

I hope we agree on this.

[Guest guest]

"I think the temples should be open to all who who can respect the persons and property at the temple"

 

vaishnava etiquette wants more, a visiting devotee is invited to speak krsna katha, lead the kirtan, recite homages, prayers...

 

to allow only to enter and attend is only a little less offensive than to close the gates.. not the perfection

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/59614/0/collapsed/5/o/1

 

[ancient_paztriot]

I think it's sad that visitors recruit temple devotees. Seems they should show more respect.

 

But why doesn't the temple train their people in such a way that they remain happy where they are?

 

Is the temple gonna institutionalize the devotee they see as their property? Can you regulate the upward mobility of people?

 

Yeah, I think people do just that. Just because any particular place may have their regs., it doesn't mean it's right. These things must be consistent with universal principles, not sectarian team spirit.

[Guest guest]

"I think it's sad that visitors recruit temple devotees"

if any devotee visiting can easily take away people it is not a nice sign for iskcon.. making offences to him will not help to solve the problems.. maybe the opposite.. more offences, less spiritual power, more people going away to execute the order of srila prabhupada and krishna: "tad viddhi pranipatena..".. follow a pure devotee

(if you "recruit" me and you bring me to a pure devotee, you are helping me to be in the real iskcon of prabhupada)

(the same visiting "recruiting" devotees go also in other maths and do not recruit anyone.......)

not so easy, spirituality is not a church/organization/math affair, one has to look for the master not for the school

[Guest guest]

"I think it's sad that visitors recruit temple devotees. Seems they should show more respect."

 

Things aren't quite as cut and dried and this. Generally, visitors from "outside gurus" already have a connection with the Temple they are visiting. They are usually interrogated and placed on the defensive. So, when all else fails, they say, "Come see for yourself."

 

Or, when defending their outside guru, they say "just read one of these books, and I challenge you to find one thing which contradicts Srila Prabhupada."

 

The bottom line is, these "visitors" (even if they had been deeply involved with the Temple community for years or decades), wind up receiving an ultimatum: either stop seeing this "outside guru", or leave. So, devotees are booted out. Most devotees who have taken shelter of "outside gurus", I'd say 90% of them, if they had their choice, would have preferred to remain within the Temple community. Most are very respectful of the Temple guidelines and are not there to convert, but simply to worship. However, when cornered, and backed up against a wall, absolutely they are going to defend their guru from offensive remarks. Then the inevitable boot.

 

Iskcon is losing more devotees due to excommunication than they are due to "recruitment." Sadly, Iskcon politics would have one believe otherwise.

 

---Bhakta Samosa

[Guest guest]

Iskcon is losing more devotees due to excommunication than they are due to "recruitment."

[Guest guest]

And then after they are banned, sometimes by the dozens, usually because they merely have some affection for this "outside guru", although they wish to continue worshipping at the Temple full-time, they will lodge a protest, and justifiably so. After all, the Temple is uprooting the long-time service of these sincere devotees and sending them out in the cold to fend for themselves. Consequently, an occasional "backlash" of sorts occurs, and a protest ensues. Rather than discuss the issues like gentlemen, trying to resolve the situation, the Iskcon leaders seize the opportunity to twist things around, saying "See, we told you so!"

 

Asta Sakhi mata, along with others, had served at the Bhaktivedanta Manor for probably 25 years. When she got the boot, she organized a protest, apparently to no avail.

 

It is worth noting that there are other temples which are less political-minded, and seem to be able to have followers (or sympathizers) of outside gurus remain in their congregation, such as the Berkely Temple and the Salt Lake City Temple. Give peace a chance, and usually, peace is what you get. When politics enters the equation, then that's when the problems begin.

 

---Bhakta Samosa

[Dervish]

Defending one's guru is right and proper. I can't think of a reason why not to defend. However, I've personally witnessed numerous ocasions where a small group of devotees from one mission has gone to ISKCON programs. The group's purpose was twofold. They were there to see the deities, and participate in some chanting; and they were also there to meet young and impressionable bhaktas and bhaktins and talk about their mission for the purpose of recruitment.

 

A previous poster hit the nail on the head when they wrote "If the recruiters are able to recruit people from the temple, then that means there is something seriously lacking in that temple". The fact that recruitments do take place at these temples and are successful for as often as they are is a clear indication that something needs to change in ISKCON.

 

When I first met the devotees, I was faced with as many as five missions, five choices on where to go. In the end, I picked the one mission that did not actively try to indoctrinate me into their institution. I'm not saying this is the ultimate litmus test for spiritual sincerity, but my point is, people who want to be devotees will go to the mission and guru that they deserve to be. It all depends on their adhikara, skriti, and the nature of their soul.

 

Preaching is what Gaudiya Saraswat is about, but this preaching between missions for the sole purpose of indoctrination needs to cease. It's also hurting devotees from other missions who do not practice this act. Once this stops, ISKCON has absolutely no viable excuse to act offensively, and at this point, there is a much better chance to learn from one another and stay unified as a sampradaya.

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya Lila 22.54

 

'sadhu-sanga', 'sadhu-sanga'----sarva-sastre kaya

lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya

 

"The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment's association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success.

[Guest guest]

"Preaching is what Gaudiya Saraswat is about, but this preaching between missions for the sole purpose of indoctrination needs to cease."

 

I basically agree, although I might add that this indoctrination works both ways. The visiting devotees doing the preaching wouldn't even be considered "visitors" had they not been booted out to begin with. Also, their preaching may not be simply for the motive of converting, but also to expose the injustice, especially to long-time friends and godbrothers/godsisters with whom they had extensive association. I guess it's a part of the natural backlash. These banished devotees are now displaced (consider the fact that most were at one time penniless monks fully surrendered to the Temple authorities), and wish to defend their rights (to attend the Temple of their choice for worship) which have now been suddenly removed. With Iskcon leaders publishing so many offensive and truth-distorting position papers against the outside gurus, often the banished devotees' only recourse is to speak with their former brethren themselves, face to face. It may be seen as "conversion", and perhaps to some extent it is. However, I believe that there is more to it than that. Exposing the injustices is also a factor, and I believe they have every right to do so, being that they had a previous connection with the Temple. They've already been booted out for political reasons, so what have they got to lose.

 

Still, I do agree that once they've been booted out, however unjust that may be, it's probably best that they try to move on, and find another preaching venue. Easier said than done, however, given the prior connection with the Temples and their displaced situations.

 

---Bhakta Samosa

[Guest guest]

Dear Admin,

 

Just curious---you edited my post by removing a link to a non-offensive news article on VNN which reinforces one of the points I was making, (regarding Asta Sakhi mata's situation in England.)

 

Yet, you allow an unsigned guest to post a controversial link to the Chakra site to apparently support an opposing view. (And in my opinion, a one-sided view at that.)

 

Sorry, just doesn't seem quite fair to me.

 

And, I suppose this post will be deleted by the Admin as well. But, I thought I would try asking for an explanation. Otherwise, it just makes it obvious which side of the fence the Admin is on, regarding this particular issue.

 

---Bhakta Samosa

[Guest guest]

The article you posted a link to was four years old, and contained what seemed rather harsh sweeping statements of things alleged to have taken place fifteen or twenty years earlier. We felt you made your point without it, and it would likely only cause others to make attacks on your guru in return. Such things have happened in the past, and we wish to avoid such things from occurring.

[Guest guest]

"Also, their preaching may not be simply for the motive of converting, but also to expose the injustice, especially to long-time friends and godbrothers/godsisters with whom they had extensive association."

What would you do if you were incharge of an ISKCON temple and someone came denouncing so called injustices? Give him the microphone or boot him out. I guess the latter. The aggressive attitude is at best neophyte. A devotee who has some knowledge will never blame what comes to him as a result of his karma to another. When Jagai hit Lord Nityananda and blood flew from His body, Lord Caitanya wanted to kill jagai but Lord Nityananda intervened and said what happened to Him was due to His bad Karma and Jagai should be saved. Over and over we see this in SB and elsewhere. Even in our anger and frustration(due to our karma) which should not acted against true knowledge.

Whether we like it or not many of the original newd devotees in the other Maths came from ISKCON and this took place even in the presence of Srila Prabhupada. Many tunneled through the other Maths to their own thing.

Conversion of a neophyte need not be due to ISKCON errors. A neophte means that such possibility is there. Even with Prabhupada there it was going on but Srila Prabhupada was not a neophyte Guru.

The unfortunate thing is that the leaders of the Maths are saying nothing about this recruiting from other Maths.I think ISKCON has banned it. May be others should do the same. This I call calling a truce.

You cannot open your centres as a recruiting centre for others or protest places for those who are against you. Even advanced people do not do that not to talk of people considered "neophyte like ISKCON .

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

since this topic has been brought up, might as well ask:

what need is there for Prabhupada's books to be edited, to be made "more perfect"? i was recently told that there are about 800 changes made in Prabhupada's Bhagavada Gita, As It Is. that is, from the original Macmillan edition, about 800 changes are made to produce the newer version. also, are any of Srila Prabhupada's other books edited from their original version?

 

Prabhupada was a pure devotee, and presented the Gita, "As It Is". then why edit something that is perfect? that is pride, thinking something perfect is not perfect, and then making it better. i do not mean to offend anyone, but hope you agree with me.

 

Hare Krishna

[Dervish]

Those who changed the words will assert that changes needed to be made for ease of reading and understanding. There may be passages which some may assert are imperfect to the mundane eye, but I say they should preserved exactly how Srila Prabhupad has written them. I want every pre-1977 book by Srila Prabhupad. I have many already (thank you, Ebay!), but I will always want more.

 

PS: Can someone direct me where I can buy a pre-1977 Bhagavad Gita as it is? Or are those alleged reprints of the original also altered?

[gHari]

While certainly it is best to just remember Krsna and avoid all that political maya, it may fall upon our heads.

 

Some have dealt with it well in the past. Some were banned for their ties to another guru. He has since been issued an official apology. Some of the rejected ones are still on the outside and flourishing.

 

I guess it is a measure of where our priorities lie. Krsna's devotees are never vanquished.

 

As I come face to face with my own flaws, I must be tolerant of everyone else's. Everyone is trying to do their best. If we keep our focus then the waves of politics should not swamp us. Krsna knows where our hearts are; these tests will prove our merit or destroy us.

 

The best way to play the game, is to not play at all. "Remember Me. Do not forget Me".

 

[Guest guest]

"The unfortunate thing is that the leaders of the Maths are saying nothing about this recruiting from other Maths"

 

do you think that who is serving in iskcon and goes to take initiation to another math is doing it because he's plagiarized?

 

why not let these people continue their service in iskcon centers instead of banning them? in this way the recruiting would have no practical effect, i am cooking the saturday, the sunday i go to take initiation, monday i come to cook... no recruiting, no taking away forces, no problem..

(this is only an iskcon phenomenon.. in the gaudya math one takes initiation from a guru and it is normal, for various reasons, that he serve in another organization.. no problem, no sectarism

[Guest guest]

the solution is not up to iskcon,it is up to the other

sect leaders,if they would be very strict in ordering their

disciples not to disturb the preaching effort of iskcon

by trying to present their gurus as superior and better

acaryas to the iskcon congregation,then there would be no problem.

 

but in reality we see that often times this is not the case,

the others maths want to expand their preaching effort

and see iskcon as the easy way to find potential recruits,

in iskcon we do not see this problem of disciples of one iskcon guru being banned from the areas of anothers preaching,they respect each others efforts.

 

so the ball is in the non iskcon court,they need to

come up to the level of respecting the iskcon

gurus as bonafide,this is common sense,regardless of how you might feel about a particular guru's qualification

that needs to be kept to yourself if you want to be

accepted in that gurus sangha.

 

If the disciples of an iskcon guru wanted to serve

in anothers maths jurisdiction with the devotees of that math,would he be accepted if he tried to proselytize

the congregation and the disciples of the math to

his guru ,also including bad mouthing the acarya and

devotees of the math as being less of a devotee ?

 

of course not.

 

But they want it the other way around,so in order for iskcon

to be more accomodating,which obviously they would prefer

as that can only increase their own mission,they would like

to recieve the same respect that is demanded of them,

which is not forthcoming at the present time.

 

So we some some iskcon law denying access to iskcon

facilites to non iskcon initiated vaisnavas,

this needs to be taken off the books,as it is illegal,

at least in the U.S.

 

At the same time the devotees who are allowed in iskcon

at the present and are not iskcon initiated should be the example for all of iskcon,and the other missions.

 

Cooperation based on mutual goals is what is best for all concerned,first though there needs to be mutual respect,

the other acaryas should respect the mission of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada as being the mission that

is distributing a particular form of Gaudiya Vaisnavism,

He was clearly empowered as the world acarya,his approach

should be respected,if another approach was the one desired

by the divine will then another acarya would have been

empowered to do the job,this MUST be respected by non iskcon

maths.

 

If they want to continuously preach the manjari bhava

approach to the sankirtan mission in defiance to the will

of A.C.Bhaktivedanta and the divine empowerment,

then they should not desire to have iskcon used as a forum

for their approach,they MUST RESPECT iskcon as the empowered

mission for a mass audience,otherwise why was their guru not

empowered as the world acarya ?

 

We see that there is only one style of approach that was

empowered for a mass audience,this is no accident,this is not something to take lightly as many do in their arrogance,

they see themselves as "redefiners",they want to

"elevate" the discourse to manjari bhava,they can do so

all they want,but they should RESPECT the acarya empowered

like no other,HIS approach must be respected,THEN AND ONLY

THEN will the current animosity end,the divine will

is in control,not gurus,not acaryas,not money,not politics,

ISVARA PARAMA KRSNA,God is controlling these affairs,

the approach to the sankirtan

movement as shown by AC Bhaktivedanta should be

seen for what it is,proper and not of a lower quality

as many of these other maths like to think.