The Magic of Sixty-four Rounds

[Guest guest]

 

Most sadhakas I talk with who do it focused at one sitting say it takes three to four hours

At three hours, they would be chanting one round every 2 minutes 48 seconds. That is near to impossible. By chanting in your mind you may get it down to a 5 minute round with a lot of practice, but not a 2 minute 48 second round.

 

At this rate it means it would only take 9 hours to chant the 300,000 names that Haridas Thakur did. This really cheapens his accomplishment. There are thousands of people who chant or worship for 9 hours a day. That's not an impressive thing. That doesnt get you the title 'namacarya'. He wasn't called namacarya because he chanted 9 hours a day, he was given that title because he chanted 24 hours a day. By the time he finished his 300,000 names it was time for him to start the next days chanting. No time to even eat or sleep. So he was chanting the 7 minute round, not the 2 minute 48 second round.

 

Another perspective, if it took 3 hours to chant 64 rounds, that would mean you would finish 16 rounds in 45 minutes. Hahaha. A lot of the new bhaktas who come to ISKCON chant 2 minute 48 second rounds and finish their 16 rounds in half an hour. We used to tell them to slow down and concentrate more on the chanting and make sure they weren't skipping beads. But now we can just tell them they are advanced and ready to become babaji's at Radhakunda, and join the other 2 minute 48 second round chanters.

 

If someone is claiming to finish 64 rounds in 3 hours, I would bet my money that they aren't actually chanting the 64 rounds. They may even think they are chanting, but their fingers are moving across the mala faster than they are chanting.

[raga]

 

At three hours, they would be chanting one round every 2 minutes 48 seconds. That is near to impossible. By chanting in your mind you may get it down to a 5 minute round with a lot of practice, but not a 2 minute 48 second round.

Have you ever tried? Have you persevered in the practice of chanting one, two or three lakhs of names while sitting still in one location, uninterrupted? If not, you are not in a position to assess how much it can or cannot take; please do not then speak of things that are over your head. What your mind cannot accomplish is not the standard for the rest of the world.

 

If you omit inhalation breaks from your seven-minute round and spend them in doing upamsu or manasika japa while inhaling, your seven minute round has already come down to five minutes and fifteen seconds (assuming you inhale 1 and exhale 3).

 

As a matter of curiosity, you may be interested to know that Bhaktivinoda's daily schedule (as found in Mahanidhi Swami's "Gaudiya Vaisnava Samadhis in Vrindavan") allocated only 2½ hours for japa.

 

There are also Vaisnavas who have chanted five lakhs of names, or more. Siddha Manohar Das Babaji of Govinda-kunda is told to have chanted seven lakhs at times. I recall hearing Lalita Prasad Thakur was also in the habit of chanting five lakhs a day towards the end of his life. It is not an impossibility.

 

 

 

At this rate it means it would only take 9 hours to chant the 300,000 names that Haridas Thakur did. This really cheapens his accomplishment. There are thousands of people who chant or worship for 9 hours a day. That's not an impressive thing. That doesnt get you the title 'namacarya'. He wasn't called namacarya because he chanted 9 hours a day, he was given that title because he chanted 24 hours a day. By the time he finished his 300,000 names it was time for him to start the next days chanting. No time to even eat or sleep. So he was chanting the 7 minute round, not the 2 minute 48 second round.

You'll read of Haridas Thakur going preaching with Nityananda, you'll read of him discussing the glories of the Name in Vaisnava assemblies, you'll find him discussing in the company of devotees.

 

The amount of hours does not "cheapen" anything, except in a mundane calculation. He is praised as nama-acarya because he both practiced and preached in an excellent manner -- you can read this in Sanatana Gosvami's words in Caitanya-caritamrita. These two combined made him the acarya, not just the chanting.

 

 

 

Another perspective, if it took 3 hours to chant 64 rounds, that would mean you would finish 16 rounds in 45 minutes. Hahaha. A lot of the new bhaktas who come to ISKCON chant 2 minute 48 second rounds and finish their 16 rounds in half an hour. We used to tell them to slow down and concentrate more on the chanting and make sure they weren't skipping beads. But now we can just tell them they are advanced and ready to become babaji's at Radhakunda, and join the other 2 minute 48 second round chanters.

 

If someone is claiming to finish 64 rounds in 3 hours, I would bet my money that they aren't actually chanting the 64 rounds. They may even think they are chanting, but their fingers are moving across the mala faster than they are chanting.

You are very welcome to come and observe how one lakh of names is chanted in three hours, or how five lakhs of names are chanted in fifteen hours for that matter. I'll keep my mala outside the bag for you to see and tap rhythm for you with my left hand at each half-mantra to keep you appraised of the exact pace. Perhaps after a week of 15-hour daily sessions your mind will catch the pace, too.

 

As far as your new bhaktas are concerned, they should not think that quality japa is accomplished at such a speed if they are just getting started. Do send them to Radha-kunda for training though.

 

--

 

If you reply to this post, please identify yourself while posting if you wish to continue the discussion.

[Guest guest]

 

Have you ever tried? Have you persevered in the practice of chanting one, two or three lakhs of names while sitting still in one location, uninterrupted?

You aren't the first person to try this. It is physically impossible to chant a complete mahamantra in 1.5 seconds, what to speak of repeatedly for 100,000 times or 300,000 times. 1.5 seconds is what it would take to make a 2 minute 48 second round, which is what you need to do to chant 64 rounds in three hours. I will just go ahead and stick with my orginal conclusion that you think you are chanting 64 rounds but are moving the beads faster than you chant.

 

 

If not, you are not in a position to assess how much it can or cannot take; please do not then speak of things that are over your head. What your mind cannot accomplish is not the standard for the rest of the world.

 

I understand that in your 7 years of Krishna consciousness you have surpassed the rest of us and are now able to chant the mahamantra in 1.5 seconds, rounds in 2 minutes 46 seconds, and 500,000 names of Krishna in 15 hours. You have even beat out Haridas Thakur. Congratulations on the accomplishment.

 

 

If you omit inhalation breaks from your seven-minute round and spend them in doing upamsu or manasika japa while inhaling, your seven minute round has already come down to five minutes and fifteen seconds (assuming you inhale 1 and exhale 3).

 

Even chanting the maha mantra in the mind doesn't get you to chanting the mantra in 1.5 seconds. It is impossible. You think you are doing it, but you are not.

 

 

As a matter of curiosity, you may be interested to know that Bhaktivinoda's daily schedule (as found in Mahanidhi Swami's "Gaudiya Vaisnava Samadhis in Vrindavan") allocated only 2½ hours for japa.

How much time you officially allocate for japa in your daily schedule does not indicate how much japa you chant in a day.

 

There are also Vaisnavas who have chanted five lakhs of names, or more. Siddha Manohar Das Babaji of Govinda-kunda is told to have chanted seven lakhs at times.

Many people are told to have done many things. It doesn't become real just because it is told.

 

 

I recall hearing Lalita Prasad Thakur was also in the habit of chanting five lakhs a day towards the end of his life. It is not an impossibility.

You "recall hearing" that this person chanted 500,000 names of Krishna, does it mean he really did it? You also think you are chanting 100,000 names in three hours at 1.5 seconds per mantra.

 

The amount of hours does not "cheapen" anything, except in a mundane calculation.

It does when mr. raganuga claims he can chant 500,000 names in 15 hours.

 

 

You are very welcome to come and observe how one lakh of names is chanted in three hours, or how five lakhs of names are chanted in fifteen hours for that matter. I'll keep my mala outside the bag for you to see and tap rhythm for you with my left hand at each half-mantra to keep you appraised of the exact pace. Perhaps after a week of 15-hour daily sessions your mind will catch the pace, too.

And you are how old again? Wasn't it 24 years? And now you are the one to teach every one how to chant 500,000 names of krishna in 15 hours. Where is that rolling on the floor laughing smiley with his stomach exploding?

[Guest guest]

Dear Skeptical Guest,

 

There's probably no benefit in my trying to offer any objective input here--you believe what you believe and appear to be fixed in your view of what chanting is and what Gaudiya Vaishnavism is. However for those who are more open, I agree with the essence of what Raga states here and have experienced this myself. I was never able to chant quickly with voiced japa and manasik wasn't much different till one day I was chanting internally with more concentration than normal and I realized that I was no longer "speaking" mentally but was chanting the mantra with a different part of my brain. And yes, the whole mantra. That shift was quite a revelation and I can see why the skeptical guest doesn't accept that chanting can be done much faster than he has experienced. However you can experience this yourself so long as you can dislodge the impressions you currently hold as to where the chanting takes place. It also helps to cultivate attentiveness and avoid walking, shaking your beads and all other externalizations that we may have developed in an effort to "help us finish our rounds."

[raga]

The anonymous guest should kindly identify himself. I have directly requested for this in my post, and this is also said in my signature. As a matter of courtesy, please.

 

It is so easy to boast and blame from behind a veil of anonymity. I find the tone in your post unedifying, and must wonder if you would speak in the same manner, were we to meet in person. Stand up for who you are, identify yourself and make yourself worthy of being heard.

 

I'll comment on your post after that.

[raga]

 

I was never able to chant quickly with voiced japa and manasik wasn't much different till one day I was chanting internally with more concentration than normal and I realized that I was no longer "speaking" mentally but was chanting the mantra with a different part of my brain. And yes, the whole mantra. That shift was quite a revelation and I can see why the skeptical guest doesn't accept that chanting can be done much faster than he has experienced. However you can experience this yourself so long as you can dislodge the impressions you currently hold as to where the chanting takes place. It also helps to cultivate attentiveness and avoid walking, shaking your beads and all other externalizations that we may have developed in an effort to "help us finish our rounds."

Thank you for this astute observation. Indeed, the "mental speaking model" does not yield itself to such rapid japa. If a term had to be coined for what you describe, perhaps "present experience model" would be a fit choice. In that, the mantra is no longer formed from syllables -- it is felt as constantly present and still appearing again and again, separating one count of mantra from the next.

 

A sensitive chanter may feel the difference between the two as follows: The first, still rather intimately bound with the sensory functions of the sadhaka, is internally spelled heard closer to the area between your ears, in the area of the subtle head where the influences of the vocal organ, the eyes, the nose and the ears intersect. The second, presiding in a state independent from sensory binds, is experienced higher in the subtle head, close to the region known as sahasrara.

[raga]

Concerning my notes above, there is a very befitting verse cited in Dhyanacandra's Paddhati (64):

 

mano-madhye sthito mantro mantra-madhye sthitaM manaH |

mano-mantraM samAyuktam etad dhi japa-lakSaNam || hbv 17.129?

 

"When the mantra is situated amidst the mind, and the mind is situated amidst the mantra, and when the mind and the mantra fuse together – then the effects of japa unfold."

 

When the mind and the mantra become one, one is withdrawn from outer reality altogether, seated in a beautiful, tranquile state of absorption.

[bija]

Raga and friends, here is an e-book that was published in the last couple of days, gloryfying the chanting of 64 rounds. It is a nice little compilation and well worth a read.

 

[ATTACH]1253[/ATTACH]

13d1154163405-vedas-laksha-naam-vedas-laksha-naam.txt

[raga]

A good compilation. It looks like he missed a few of the references I had in my article; notably, the omission of Satyabhāmā and Candramukhī.

 

I would like to see a more precise reference to Jagannath Das Babaji's words.

[bija]

Thanks for your comments Raga. What I like about the ebook is that it glorifies laksha naam. In my own practice I wish to honor lakh chanting as it is

instructed by Lord Caitanya and the Acarya's. And also to honor all devotees who have taken this vow.

I think AC Bhaktivedanta used much wisdom in setting a vow of 16 rounds for his disciples. It was attainable for them and he encouraged them to keep to the vow. Setting a vow in chanting the Hare Krsna Mahamantra is the beginning of auspiciousness I feel. By taking a vow to daily chant even 1 or 4 rounds a day and maintain that faithfully, we have stepped onto the royal road to laksha naam. There is no loss. The slow and steady win the race. But saying this, we are all different, and some fortunate souls are graced to take up laksha naam very soon, by taking vows of 16, 32, or 48 rounds. All glories to them.

[Janardan]

Raga,

I am very interested in speeding up chanting. I ask How do you chant 64 rounds so quickly. Is it audible? If it is audible, where can I find more info. on this?

[raga]

Janardan: Not audible. It would be very hard to chant 64 rounds in three hours that pace while vocally pronouncing each name. If I chant aloud at a rapid pace and do upamsu while inhaling, I chant one mala in a bit over 4 minutes, and one lakh comes to a bit under four and a half hours.

 

The capacity of the mind is greater than the capacity of the mouth. Then, speed is naturally gained by practice with focus; it comes automatically. I don't think anyone should try to artificially speed up japa, the quality would most likely suffer from that.

 

Regardless of how you chant, here's the magic formula for attaining better focus and deeper experiences:

 

Sit down. Don't move anywhere before 64 rounds are finished. Don't eat or drink before a lakh is full, ever. If need be, fast until ten in the evening if that's as long as it takes before the lakh is full.

[Guest guest]

 

Janardan: Not audible. It would be very hard to chant 64 rounds in three hours that pace while vocally pronouncing each name. If I chant aloud at a rapid pace and do upamsu while inhaling, I chant one mala in a bit over 4 minutes, and one lakh comes to a bit under four and a half hours.

 

The capacity of the mind is greater than the capacity of the mouth. Then, speed is naturally gained by practice with focus; it comes automatically. I don't think anyone should try to artificially speed up japa, the quality would most likely suffer from that.

 

Regardless of how you chant, here's the magic formula for attaining better focus and deeper experiences:

 

Sit down. Don't move anywhere before 64 rounds are finished. Don't eat or drink before a lakh is full, ever. If need be, fast until ten in the evening if that's as long as it takes before the lakh is full.

 

Eating at 10:00 pm is a very unhealthy practice.

You need a good 4 hours to at least partially digest your meal before taking sleep.

I think stopping japa to take a proper meal at a healthy time would be better than putting off eating till 10:00 pm.

 

But, if you can chant 64 rounds in 3 or 4 hours then there is no need for that I guess.

However, I have been chanting for many years and it still takes me 2 hours to chant 16 rounds.

 

If you listen to the japa tape of Srila Prabhupada you can easily imagine that it would take two hours to chant at the pace he chanted japa.

 

Myself, if japa is done correctly, then after about 4 rounds I am feeling quite relieved of material stress and starting to feel the bliss.

 

I can't imagine speeding through my japa at the pace of 64 rounds in 4 hours.

 

I relish japa and I certainly don't like to do it hastily just for the sake of getting it done and out of the way.

 

I don't see what is so hard about finding 8 hours out of the day to chant for one who is seriously dedicated to sadhana bhakti.

 

Speeding through my rounds so I have extra time to surf the web and catch-up on all the forums and chats doesn't strike me as proper.

 

There is nothing more nectar than the Holy Name.

Stetching out that nectar for 8 hours seems preferable to getting through 64 rounds in 4 hours and then going on to so many lesser involvements.

[raga]

 

Eating at 10:00 pm is a very unhealthy practice.

You need a good 4 hours to at least partially digest your meal before taking sleep.

I think stopping japa to take a proper meal at a healthy time would be better than putting off eating till 10:00 pm.

That would certainly be the healthier option, but would compromise the vrata of not eating until the lakh is done. Why is that bad? More on that in a moment. In such a situation, one would probably be best off drinking a few glasses of water and eating on the next day.

 

 

 

But, if you can chant 64 rounds in 3 or 4 hours then there is no need for that I guess.

People can get themselves entangled in the craziest things, you know, voluntarily or otherwise. Leaving japa "for later" is a risky business, and the vrata of not eating before japa is done is quite effective in ensuring that the daily quota is fulfilled.

 

It is also a statement to the lord of one's determination. Remember Gaurakisora Das Babaji, who would start heading towards the Ganga if nama-bhajana wasn't working out? In that spirit.

 

 

 

I relish japa and I certainly don't like to do it hastily just for the sake of getting it done and out of the way.

 

I don't see what is so hard about finding 8 hours out of the day to chant for one who is seriously dedicated to sadhana bhakti.

 

Speeding through my rounds so I have extra time to surf the web and catch-up on all the forums and chats doesn't strike me as proper.

Yes, I heartily agree on that. I am not saying you should stop at one lakh. It isn't that one can think "now I am chanting enough" when the counter hits 64. When that becomes established, start chanting one and half lakhs. Then two, and so on and so forth. Kirtaniya sada harih is the objective.

[sanatan]

Successive thirty-two or forty-eight or sixty-four round vows are fine goals, but first goal for me: a steady and well-chanted sixteen...

 

I've found that there are indeed practical steps that can be taken to improve japa.

 

The first idea is to do all rounds at one sitting, with the time considered to be Krishna's Time...there is nothing more important during that time.

 

Ideal time to begin is between four and five A.M. If I don't start my rounds during that time period I've blown it and usually, japa chanted later will merely fulfill a quota.

 

Wash face and hands, brush teeth, feel fresh and awake.

 

Get a drink of water or juice and make sure to go to bathroom...wash hands and mouth well, have a fresh taste.

 

Sit down in a semi-yogic position in chair or on floor...comfortable enough to not get distracted but attentive and proper, not slouched or lazy looking.

 

Read one verse and purport from Gita before beginning japa.

 

Begin each round with Pancha Tattva Mantra and "All Glories to Srila Prabhupada".

 

Don't shake beads or walk. Use an eye cover if it helps.

 

On the average, I can chant a well-pronounced mala round in 5 1/2 minutes...but go with what's working that day...if it's slower, fine, what difference does an extra ten minutes for japa make?

 

Keep a little water or juice nearby...have some if needed. Same applies to going to bathroom...go if necessary; don't let needing to go ruin concentration.

 

Vary speed and method of chanting as the need is felt to keep concentration. Try to repeat mantra audubly and mentally at the same time.

 

After completing sixteen rounds, offer obeiances to Srila Prabhupada. Put beads away nicely...don't just toss them aside.

 

Sit in silent meditation for another fifteen minutes or so, either repeating Maha Mantra mentally or Krisn-Na on incoming-outgoing breaths.

 

Once again, read some Scripture.

 

Make a rule....no net surfing, daily chores and duties, etc., until at least one hour past all of these activities...then the time is truly Krishna's time.

 

This is not a difficult schedule...if I could do all of it even a steady five mornings a week...

[Guest guest]

Well, if you ask me, if one is chanting 64 rounds a day seriously, japa should all be done before the end of Brahma-muhurta.

I heard that Bhaktivinode went to bed at 9:00 p.m. and got about about 1:00 or 2:00 a.m.

If one is REALLY serious about nama-bhajan and chanting 64 rounds as day, then I would say a serious sadhaka trying to do that would keep hours as I described about Bhaktivinode.

 

Chanting rounds during all hours of the day while so many distractions and daily activities are supposed to be done just doesn't sound like a very good forumula.

 

Bhaktivinode was a hard-working family man.

He had to get up at 1:00 a.m. to get his 64 rounds done before going to work.

Maybe that was part of his success forumula?

 

I don't believe that chanting 64 rounds during the day after Brahma-muhurta is going to bring the focus and success that we would be seeking.

[raga]

It goes without saying that around brahma-muhurta is the best time. Unfortunately brahma-muhurta only lasts so long... If you do the 64 rounds for eight hours, you'll have to start at 8 PM to have it done before brahma-muhurta.

 

In any case, "scattering" the japa amidst other activities is not good. Chant at one sitting, whether you start at 1 AM or 5:30 AM.

 

Mahanidhi Swami's "GV Samadhis in Vrindavana" has Bhaktivinoda's schedule that allocates 4:30 to 7:00 AM for japa, with court duties starting at 10 AM, lasting until 5 PM with a one-hour break.

[Guest guest]

 

It goes without saying that around brahma-muhurta is the best time. Unfortunately brahma-muhurta only lasts so long... If you do the 64 rounds for eight hours, you'll have to start at 8 PM to have it done before brahma-muhurta.

 

In any case, "scattering" the japa amidst other activities is not good. Chant at one sitting, whether you start at 1 AM or 5:30 AM.

 

Mahanidhi Swami's "GV Samadhis in Vrindavana" has Bhaktivinoda's schedule that allocates 4:30 to 7:00 AM for japa, with court duties starting at 10 AM, lasting until 5 PM with a one-hour break.

 

I'm just speaking from my own experience.

Brahma-muhurta is also known as amrita-bhela ( I am not sure the actual sanskrit), but it means "the time of nectar".

 

Bhaktivinode was up at 1:00 a.m. studying and writing as well. Maybe he put his rounds off till a little later.

 

since I don't write books on siddhanta, I would just use those early hours for chanting.

 

I don't know about others, but I have a practice of chanting japa and reading the scriptures at the same time.

 

I don't know what others think about it, but for me it helps me focus my mind and get if off of other things that it tends to drift to when I am chanting.

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krishna

 

Can you get this book on-line, if not then anymore nectar on hand?

 

I heard of this book from Living Entity (who due to misunderstanding is Not talking to me) sorry Mata for offending you, Haribol.

[mrs.moore]

all of the above.

[cbrahma]

Shouldn't we be practical in our practices? Consistency is the most important. Once we increase we should maintain. Prabhupada only required 16 rounds. I'm not sure why 64 is 'magic'. Of course that's how many rounds he chanted because that was his vow. The magic is the bhakti the dedication to maintain a certain standard, isn't it?

[raga]

 

I'm not sure why 64 is 'magic'.

It is "magic" because it is the prescription of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. His satisfaction brings about magic on the path of bhajana.

 

More: http://wiki.gaudiyakutir.com/64_rounds

[cbrahma]

Does Sri Caitanyadeva say this, or is it devotional interpretation?

 

 

It is "magic" because it is the prescription of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. His satisfaction brings about magic on the path of bhajana.

 

More: http://wiki.gaudiyakutir.com/64_rounds

[raga]

If you'd read what's at the link I posted, you'd be one notch wiser on what Mahaprabhu and the acaryas have taught.

 

Now, of course we don't have a tape recording of Mahaprabhu saying this, so yes, in the end it's all devotional interpretation. We are however looking at the interpretation of some substantially accomplished people.

[cbrahma]

What I read is 100000 names as a requirement.

 

Let's see 1000000/108 (one round)/ 16 (names in the mantra) = 57.87037..

Where does the 64 come from?

 

Was Prabhupada misleading us with the 16 rounds which would be by my calculation 27648 names?

 

 

If you'd read what's at the link I posted, you'd be one notch wiser on what Mahaprabhu and the acaryas have taught.

 

Now, of course we don't have a tape recording of Mahaprabhu saying this, so yes, in the end it's all devotional interpretation. We are however looking at the interpretation of some substantially accomplished people.