? for Narayana Maharaja Disciple

[gHari]

Verses 13.23-24:<blockquote>

It should not be considered an offence when ridicule is obviously too ridiculous to be taken seriously. 24Instead one should show all compassion for such an unfortunate mind, either by pointing out the various logical flaws or if too many flaws are present then kindly ignoring the whole thing as one ignores a barking dog on the other side of a very high stone fence, for such a mind is likely far beyond any hope for reason.</blockquote>

 

[yasodanandana]

"Krsna is not as limited and impotent as many seem to think. He is not bound by words and titles and bricks and steel.

He is Guru. He is always Guru."

 

....and he's in the hearts, not in the external organizations

 

[Guest guest]

This is extremely bad manners, calling a pure devotee of Krsna a kanistha-adhikari.

[Guest guest]

Just to afford some balance to the discussion, here is a notable quote from Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja:

 

"Srila Kaviraj Goswami writes the same thing in the Caitanya-caritamrta: guru krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane - it is proven in the Vedic literatures that Krsna appears as the guru. Because bhagavat-tattva is one it is often also said that guru-tattva is one. We have an eternal perfect loving relationship with Krsna. This means that life after life He is our master, krsna-nitya-prabhu, and we are His eternal servants, jiva- nitya- dasa. The guru is janme-janma-prabhu- he is our master life after life. This is guru-tattva. It is the sum total of guru tattva.

 

"Although the Supreme Lord is one, He has multifarious manifestations. Innumerable incarnations are there like Nrisingha, Vamana, Kurma, and Matsya, but the Lord is one. And guru-tattva is similar - guru is one because Krsna appears as guru. He is the sum total of guru-tattva. In Sanskrit, Krsna is referred to as samasti-guru. Although all forms of Vishnu are non-different, still a rama-bhakta is attracted to the form of Rama, a krsna-bhakta is attracted to the form of Krsna, and a devotee of Nrsingha is attracted to the form of Nrsingha form. Similarly, different devotees have different gurus. As we have our guru Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, other vaisnavas have their gurus like Sridhara Maharaja or some other Maharaja. They may be different persons or manifestations; still this guru-tattva is one. There is samasti-guru, the sum total of guru, Krsna; and then there is vyasti-guru, the individual gurus. Although there are individual gurus in many different forms, still the samasti-guru is one because it is Krsna who appears as the guru, both the siksa-guru and diksa-guru.

 

This is found in the book "The Worship of Sri Guru."

[yasodanandana]

in this way the APPARENT (i repeat APPARENT!!!) sectarian conception of the saint Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja is completely and without doubts reconciled with his general and well known uttama adhikari vision

 

the purpose and the meaning of the other his message (the apparently "sectarian" one) is very easily understandable

[Guest guest]

"...The problems of your experience were based on personal imperfections,the Maharaja was trying to relate a philosphical ideal, If you want to turn that into

a reason to seek association outside of Iskcon

no one is stopping you,His words were to the effect

that those who claim a "higher" plane of teaching

or sadhana are fooling themselves,I agree , If you have

some question about these things and some one in Iskcon

treated you unfairly that is a personal imperfection,

don't be like those who have an agenda to discredit

Srila Prabhupada as a teacher for beginners and try to use

imperfections in individuals as their deconstructing tool of choice.

 

Not that you are doing that,but i have seen this going on."

 

 

Again my post has been misunderstood. The above quoted statemement is incorrect, it simply supports the same old points Shiva wants to make. Fine, I'm sure his point is valid for some, but it is not at all relevant to me or my own personal experiences within ISKCON for more than three decades. I can only hope and pray some will hear what I'm trying to say. Thank you though for that last sentence allowing for the possibility you've misunderstood what I said.

 

I'm nether a disciple or follower of Srila Narayan Maharaj as such. My personal experience with the gurus under discussion here is solely with Srila Prabhupada, with whom I was fortunate enough to have had direct reciprocal association while he was still embodied. I remain welcome at my local temple and have been friends with the local guru/GBC since he first joined the movement while I was a brahmacari.

 

I'm simply stating that those seeking to discuss certain subject matter they may actually have become interested in, due to the personal realizations they've received while following the temple program and reading Prabhupada's books, are discouraged to say the least by the responses they receive at all levels. Indeed, they are often told they can go elsewhere, as was suggested to me in Shiva's reply to my posts on this thread. Of course, if they do so they risk being no longer welcomed back, even as visitors. Walking the line, prabhus? Maybe I can help...

 

Is ISKCON attempting to seal itself off because of the danger of philosophical contamination, as if that were possible, or just keep followers' energies and donations flowing to that institution alone? Maybe there's no to concern about me because I've little left of either to give anymore. Do tight-knit congregations, mostly East Indian, best serve Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan Movement? Fortunately, that's not my decision to make.

 

Is it right though when bhaktas or visitors approach me to refuse to answer their questions, acording to my personal realizations and/or experiences, because I don't want to rock ISKCON's aparently fragile boat? Is truth such a threat that censorship and stifling are increasingly needed, along with the individual intimidation I'm often told of? Should we just pretend there are no problems and enjoy our "bliss", as if ignorance is the solution rather than sincere open CARING discussion?

 

It's not difficult to see why many feel the futility of even trying to improve the situation, which they might see as their service to Srila Prabhupada and inspired by him in their hearts, by helping his ISKCON grow and remain strong. Shall we just send our money instead, remaining alone at home chanting and reading? Again, is not siksha guru vitally important for self-realization and his/her living association usually more personal than that received from the diksha guru? Have raganuga and Radha become "bad" words, along with the dreaded ritvik? You may have noted my use of the word "personal" here many times. Could that be an obvious clue not only to what's happening, but also what to do about it? Truth is, ISKCON is us. WE built it, empowered by Srila Prabhupada and ultimately WE maintain it through the devotion WE feel in our hearts, whether or not we're permitted to participate in the institutional side of things. Prabhus, how we act towards each other means everything. That's the real point I'd like to make, since the rest it seems most of us probably won't be able to do anything about, for now anyway. Regardless, WE can keep the faith in our hearts and encourage that in others as well. Yes, Radha and Krsna are one, guru is one and we are one, too...haribol!

[Guest guest]

The serious problems of Iskcon are in Iskcon.

Not somewhere elese.

./ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000157

[Dervish]

I think it's inaccurate to say that all the problems of the movement are solely localized in ISKCON. They also exist else where.

[Guest guest]

when you say iskcon is this or iskcon is that i really think

that is overstating the case, in my experience every temple

community is unique and has a different style and

mentality.

 

What you are complaining about needs to be seen with

a bit more introspection on your part,who is controlling

these events ? who is controlling everything at all times ?

 

Above all external manifestations in this world is our ability to see everything as being controlled and non chaotic,what you have experienced is what was meant to be,

so first off get a grip and try to see with this vision

then you will be peacefull.

 

with that as our starting point we can become detached

from all actions by others in this world,we see only

Krsna and we see all things as proper in that sense,

we shoudn't become emotionally distraught over that which

is in the plan of God,see everything as being directed

like a symphony orchestra, the director is in charge of

who plays what note , this vantage point leaves us

feeling like observers of a play,if you go to the theatre

you wont become upset at the theatrics knowing it's

all under control of the director.

 

So whatever your beliefs are about Radha or raganuga

or whatever it really doesn't matter what some people

in iskcon say,they are not the controllers,Krsna is.

 

Clearly Srila Prabhupada was against the introduction

of the concepts put forth by those who would

see themselves as seeking the "higher" or more intimate

knowledge they think is the raison d'etre of Sri Caitanya's

line of thought,if you have this belief as many do

why not respect the founder acarya of iskcon and his

words on the matter ?

 

If you seek counsel on these subjects there are plenty

of people more then willing to be your guru on this topic,

why make it your mission to "elevate" iskcon ?

Why not simply enjoy the association of the people

and leave your manjari bhava at the door ?

Is this to much to ask ? Is this to difficult

a thing ? Can we not check our egos if for nothing else

to acquiesce to the desire of someone who CLEARLY

WAS empowered.

 

i find it highly amusing that there are those who

seek to elevate the discourse in iskcon as if they

are bringing the "higher" discourse then that which Srila Prabhupada has done,if what all these people claim is so necessary and so glorious and special and so much better,

then why did Srila Prabhupada condemn this type of

mentality and preaching ?

 

you know the story of "again become a mouse " ?

 

Maybe after beating your head against the wall

for long enough you might come to your senses,

Iskcon is not for those who seek to "elevate"

the discourse to that of a manjari centered

outlook,i know that many branches of gaudiya thought

believe this to be so,well let them do their thing

and let Srila Prabhupada do His,if you think

or anyone thinks ,i dont care who they are, if they

think that they have a higher understanding on these matters

then Srila Prabhupada,fine,but if you attempt to

bring that into iskcon,the result is always the same,

had enough lumps on the head yet ?,dont expect

that wall to get softer /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

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[Guest guest]

 

Official Meeting of the ISKCON GBC with Srila Sridhara Maharaja (March 1978)

 

Jayapataka Maharaja: Maharaja, when our Srila Prabhupada left, then he has given instruction that for initiating and for carrying on the sampradaya there would be eleven-in the beginning, he appointed eleven devotees, his disciples, to be initiating spiritual masters or to accept disciples and in the future that number would also be able to be increased. So we wanted to take your advice on some points as to various details of how these initiating spiritual masters should deal with certain questions. If we could ask questions to you then?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: yes, you may ask.

 

Jayapataka Maharaja: He has given explicit desires, but he told us that, on other technical points and other matters of philosophy, it there was question we should approach you. He said that during his...when he was very ill, he had appointed eleven ritviks and he said that after he disappears that these ritviks would continue as initiating spiritual masters and that they could be increased later, that would be decided by the GBC or Governing Body Commission.

 

[Known present at this meeting were GBC members: Tamal Krsna Maharaja, Jayapataka Maharaja, Jayatirtha Maharaja, Harikesa Maharaja, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Jayadvaita Maharaja, and others]

 

 

*****************

 

Gaur Govinda Swami said the devotees going to see Sridhara Maharaja were fools. So were the ISKCON GBC members all fools, since the entire GBC agreed to go and meet with Sridhara Maharaja?

 

And what about Jayapataka Maharaja's statement here. He said Srila Prabhupada told them to go and see Sridhara Maharaja and get his advice.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Replay to "why do they leave Iskcon?".

 

Any apasampradaya has its roots in a bonafide source.

 

 

So has the Iskcon too a bonafide source.

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja had great difficulty in living in that society, but he had to, just because he didn't want to disobey his guru, otherwise he would have left at the spot.

[Hladini_Priya_dd]

Did you he tell you? Or are you speculating?

 

otherwise he would have left at the spot.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Go to Bhubaneshvar!

You will find the answer.

 

The matter of fact he left Iskcon in his special way.

He could not stand it anymore.

[Guest guest]

"Replay to "why do they leave Iskcon?".

 

Any apasampradaya has its roots in a bonafide source.

 

 

So has the Iskcon too a bonafide source.

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja had great difficulty in living in that society, but he had to, just because he didn't want to disobey his guru, otherwise he would have left at the spot."

What amazes me is that people who leave ISKCON for a HIGHER RASA never leave ISKCON alone. They spend all their time doing everything to discredit her.Why is it so? Is like two devorced persons who always have a conflict when they they meet. Or is it that the pastures are not so green in the region of higher rasa? I hear that when they get there, they are left at the periphery. They never form the core of the higher rasa nor seem to attain it. One of them told me he was simply seen as a source of Lakshmi. May be in ISKCON there was some frustration but there, they find more frustration. More isolation. Did they burn all the bridges with all this higher rasa enthousiasm and brashness?. Any where you go you will find some frustration. You will see that in all these higher rasa groups blooping and disagreements are there. Devotees have tunnelled through the Maths to other groups like the gosvami groups and are now shooting at ISKCON and the Maths.

With all its temples, you cannot beat ISKCON when it comes to offering devotee association world wide and what beautiful deities they have! Who will not feel the pains of separation from ISKCON?

I think the devotees who stay back in ISKCON INSTEAD OF BEING VINDICTIVE, should like Srila Prabhupda, show compassion to those who have left and encourage them to come back and welcome them when they do.

Why are ISKCON DEVOTEES NOT BEING BANNED FROM GOING TO OTHER GROUPS. Is it because they are the recruiting ground for the others?

Vrindavan dharma ki jaya!!!

[Guest guest]

"Why are ISKCON DEVOTEES NOT BEING BANNED FROM GOING TO OTHER GROUPS."

 

I think Siddha has banned everyone from a different group.

[Guest guest]

"Why are ISKCON DEVOTEES NOT BEING BANNED FROM GOING TO OTHER GROUPS."

 

I think Siddha has banned everyone from a different group.

 

Not necessarilly banned, but watched very closely. So long as they keep quiet and go along with the others without ever speaking of ISKCON or their past/present history there, especially avoiding any preaching or criticism of activities/philosophy within the group and talking to guests or new devotees, some compassion is usually extended to everyone. Siddhaswarupananda Maharaja is teaching basic truths with a westernized approach in the mode of goodness. My personal opinion is that he's building a firm solid foundation that won't leave his followers confused and fallen as many of us have experienced through ISKCON. Small and simple is sometimes best, while too much knowledge initially can often have negative consequences when we realize how little we actually know, farther than the line. Again, just my opinions. ISKCON is not criticized there, instead it's as if they don't exist.

[stonehearted]

"guest": I think Siddha has banned everyone from a different group.

 

Well, that's just a silly accusation. The only people not welcomed are those who come to create a disturbance. My family and I go to programs regularly at a center run by Siddha's disciples. You may say that we're welcome because we're old friends, and because I'm an old friend of Siddha's. But followers of Narayan Maharaja attend regularly, as well as ISKCON devotees who visit from the mainland. Dasarath from Arizona often goes when he's here, as well as the devotees who are workin on his place. And disciples of B. P. Puri Maharaja often come. And I know that there has been at least one occasion where Siddha personally received Paramadvaiti Maharaja. He instructed his disciples to pick Maharaja up at the airport, offer him new cloth, a bath and a nap, give him prasadam, then bring him to see Siddha.

[Guest guest]

"Again, just my opinions. ISKCON is not criticized there, instead it's as if they don't exist. "

 

that is not my experience,not directly anyways,a few years back i had a roomate who was an ex disciple of siddhaswarupa

and a person with accounting skills that he was donating

for their use,he was a professional accountant and close

with the leaders of that sect,he had many stories to tell

me of why he left,none good, when i asked him what was

their views on Iskcon He told me he had never been in an iskcon temple because he had been told they were

demonic.

 

on the other hand Siddhaswarupa has been subjected

to some very rough treatment,things i

found shocking when i heard them from someone

who was hired years ago to cause bodily harm to siddhaswarupa,he ultimately didn't carry out the job and just warned siddhaswarupa to stop preaching against iskcon

in the australian press and in south east asia,according to this person he was hired by an ex guru.

[Guest guest]

 

Gaur Govinda Swami said the devotees going to see Sridhara Maharaja were fools. So were the ISKCON GBC members all fools, since the entire GBC agreed to go and meet with Sridhara Maharaja?

 

 

Perhaps you have kinidly misunderstood the point of Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja's comments. Taking the essence, it is pretty clear. He is questioning why members of other Vaishnava organizations are using Srila Prabhupada's picture and things on their printed material, etc. He is also making mention of his pain every time that someone says that ISKCON is a "kanistha organisation" and cannot give the "higher rasa" that Prabhupada supposeldy "forgot" to give. Therefore he says that there is nothing lacking in ISKCON and that everything is in Prabhupada's books. It was the life mission of Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja to show exactly how everything is in Srila Prabhupada's books. And he did it very well.

 

I find it quite sad that petty criticisms are levelled against a pure devotee of Krsna such as Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja. Ironically, the original poster did not want to start a "war" between ISKCON followers and Narayana Maharaja, but this thread has unwittingly led to a "war" about Gour Govinda Maharaja. This is very sad. Such people obviously do not know how pure and divine Gour Govinda Maharaja really was.

[Guest guest]

so please show his words more carefully and make, if required, the necessary premises.

[Guest guest]

It used to be that when someone pointed to some fault within ISKCON he was quickly demonized and sometimes even kicked out of ISKCON. No attempt was made to rectify the fault or listen to importan, well-wishing critique. In retrospect, such attitute was the cause of many terrible ISKCON problems. Now for those who were kicked out ISKCON seems in same state as it was when they were forced to leave. There have been changes in ISKCON since then but that has not impressed onlookers very much and no real attempts to welcome ISKCON former members back. Most of them who are still following have gone to some Gaudiya Matha mission and taken initiation there. When someone expresses desire to visit ISKCON temple they are asked to fullfill impossible conditions (ussually invented by local GBC Lord), for example, reject their diksa or siksa-guru. Not in every country it is like that but in general it is the attitude where I live.

 

For example, in Russia Narayana Maharaja has initiated a large part of former disciples of Harikesa Swami after his spectacular falldown. How can one blame them to accept "re-initiation" if their guru fell down? I personally know many of them and with exception of some big-mouths generally they are well-wishing and friendly towards ISKCON. Still relationships are very strained.

 

One may put an argument that ISKCON needs to protect their preaching mission and for this strict rules forbidding association are necessary. But that is false argument. Narayana Maharaja's disciples in Russia are very eager to do preaching work within ISKCON parameters since there is no Narayana Maharaja's temple in Russia. The ussual story is like that: when someone receivs GM initiation at first he hopes that he/she will be able to keep their service in ISKCON temple, at least keeping by low profile. At first it seems to work, there is no unnecessary agitating or preaching about 'superiority of one's guru'. Then some GBC or ISKCON sannyasi visits the place and learns the situation, decides it is not good and ultimately directly or indirectly that devotee gets kicked out. Now, there is a a devotee who may be even forbidden to visit the temple, there is no other temple where he can go and ISKCON has lost one active member and created one more enemy with bad feeling for a long time.

 

Some places are better, some are worse. There are many ISKCON gurus who explicitly allow their disciples to accept siksa-guru from gaudiya-matha. But most often the overall policy is dictated by most fanatical ones who are ready to kick out everyone who even has the remote connection with non-ISKCON gurus. I guess, irespectfully of its former or current achievements, ISKCON has a long way to go yet to become a civilized member of larger wordwide vaishnava community.

 

Ys karunanidhi

[Guest guest]

"The ussual story is like that: when someone receivs GM initiation at first he hopes that he/she will be able to keep their service in ISKCON temple, at least keeping by low profile. At first it seems to work, there is no unnecessary agitating or preaching about 'superiority of one's guru'. Then some GBC or ISKCON sannyasi visits the place and learns the situation, decides it is not good and ultimately directly or indirectly that devotee gets kicked out. Now, there is a a devotee who may be even forbidden to visit the temple, there is no other temple where he can go and ISKCON has lost one active member and created one more enemy with bad feeling for a long time."

 

this is the reality, iskcon protecting himself to keep "personnel" inside but actually throwing it away

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

<blockquote>Eventually he started to give initiation, and sometimes, would reinitiate people with an ISKCON guru.</blockquote>

 

To be correct: NM started to give initiations only when ISKCON gurus forbade their disciples to associate with vaisnavas from GM. This restriction was considered to be avaisnava attitude, hence the reason to reject one's guru.

 

Also, wasn't it Jadurani who one of the first ISKCON members to be kicked out from ISKCON for associating with NM? When it happened I was serving in the BBT and somehow it was reported as if she had received diksha initiation from NM, when in fact it was only siksa-guru relationships.

 

And NM wasn't forbidden visit ISKCON centers when his disciples started to come to ISKCON temples and preach. It happened much sooner when GBC become worried that some members (like Tamala-Krishna Goswami) are associating too close with him. They felt the inspiration they are getting is a betrayal of Srila Prabhupada.

 

As for plagiarising books of Ananta Das Babaji it only gives Narayana Maharaja bad PR. If ADB are valuable then it is good that he is helping to distribute them all around the world even if he is not revealing its original source.

 

The relationships between ISKCON and NM were indeed immature. But one cannot deny that there are a lot of truth in what NM preached that "one should progress to higher level". Incidentaly, after NM "threat" a lot of ISKCON devotees started to attend bhakti-sastri courses to deeply study "Nectar of Devotion" and other wonderful books by Srila Prabhupada. I would say that NM preaching has done a lot of good both for those inside and outside ISKCON.

 

Ys Karunanidhi

[Guest guest]

"As for plagiarising books of Ananta Das Babaji it only gives Narayana Maharaja bad PR. If ADB are valuable then it is good that he is helping to distribute them all around the world even if he is not revealing its original source."

 

Good point. I know of only one book that has been allegedly "plagiarized", and that is the Sri Vilap Kusumanjali, written by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur. Ananta das Babaji does not have exclusive rights to Srila Carkavarti's books. Nor does he have exclusive rights to Cakravarti's purports, nor the purports of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Srila Narayana Maharaja's version contained purports by both Srila Cakravarti and Srila Bhaktivinode, along with his own purports. How can any of this be considered "plagiarism"? The books, as well as the commentaries of past acaryas are open to everyone. As far as a few disciples "leaving Srila Maharaja" over this, I have only heard of one such person, and he had already been reading the Babaji's books anyway. Sometimes people try to blow things way out of proportion, make mountains out of molehills, to stir up controversy, I suppose.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

<blockquote>

To be correct: NM started to give initiations only when ISKCON gurus forbade their disciples to associate with vaisnavas from GM. This restriction was considered to be avaisnava attitude, hence the reason to reject one's guru.

</blockquote>

 

This is not correct.

 

All through the 1980's, Narayana Maharaj was closely associating with ISKCON and GBC leaders such as Tamal Krishna Maharaj, and at the same time Tamal Krishna Maharaj and others were making heavy offences to Srila Sridhar Maharaj, including making bans on devotees who chose to associate with Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

Narayana Maharaj only split from the ISKCON leader/friends he had, after the GBC said that devotees should not associate with him.