Is Travelling to India Neccessary?

[Guest guest]

After reading the article below I am considering cancelling my trip to India for holy pilgrimage:

 

The 'twice-cursed' Dalit woman

 

By Isabelle Ligner

 

NEW DELHI: Ashana Bhan lies at the absolute bottom of India's layered social hierarchy. She is from the bottom-rung caste, the Dalits, and the bottom-rung gender, making her vulnerable to the worst brutalities.

 

Ashana was born in a village in the northern Indian state of Haryana among the Dalit community known as the Shamars, after the Sanskrit for tanners.

 

At 45, she lives in New Delhi with her husband, a cousin who is also a Dalit, the preferred term for the "untouchable" caste to which some 250 million Indians belong.

 

Ashana and her husband live with their five children under a roof of plastic in the filth of a shantytown dangerously close to the polluted water of the Yamuna river.

 

Her worn face and body bear witness to the ordeal she has been through, which she recounted with shame in broken Hindi.

 

"When I was a child, my father used to beat me because I wasn't strong enough to work in the fields," she remembered, her voice a near murmur. "Then came the high-caste people, who would make us slave away without feeding us and used to beat us, too," she said.

 

The Dalits, long regarded as impure for their traditional jobs dealing with bodies, animals and waste, are at the bottom of India's 2,500-year-old caste system, which separates "the pure" from those who could sully them.

 

The complex hierarchy was officially abolished when India won independence from Britain in 1947. But it persists in the day-to-day interaction of many of India's one billion-plus people.

 

For Dalit women, the caste system is another indignity in a society they feel treats them as second-class citizens. "I was twice-cursed," Ashana said.

 

"As I am a woman and a Dalit, I have been treated like an animal all my life," she said. "No, worse than an animal."

 

Like 77 per cent of Dalit women, Ashana is illiterate. And like many of them, she was put to work on the fields of high-caste owners, who humiliated her and raped her several times.

 

"The masters would treat us as if we had been objects. In the villages they could decide to kill us when they wished, and some of them spent their time terrorizing us," she said.

 

She recalled being raped and paraded naked in the village. "Those who were saying I was not pure and refused to share water or food with me were the first to do sexual things to me that I couldn't even understand. It began when I was 12."

 

Arriving in New Delhi two decades ago in hope of work, Ashana has never found a fixed job. She tries to win food for her family by carrying bricks to construction sites where her husband sometimes works. But the Indian capital proved little safer. "Physical abuse started again on the part of my bosses," Ashana said.

 

"My husband isn't powerful enough to defend me, so I don't say anything. It's better that way."

 

Dalit activist Raja Shekar Vurnu said lower-caste women are easy targets. "It is very easy to discriminate against a Dalit, to abuse her, because she is so weak, so low in the social ladder, she has such low self-esteem that she will not even be able or willing to fight," he said.

 

According to official statistics, more than 28,000 crimes, including murder and rape, were committed in India last year by members of higher castes against lower castes.

 

"Rape shows the hypocrisy of high-caste people who call Dalits 'untouchables' but do not hesitate to attack their women," said Ruth Manorama of the National Federation of Dalit Women.-AFP

 

 

 

 

--

 

[Guest guest]

I think that you can see the same things happening here in our 'rich world', it's just hidden better.

 

[Dervish]

Crimes against women are being committed worldwide, even in the USA, especially in the USA. If you stay in your home country and do not wish to take parikrama, chances are your home country has worse crimes being committed than those described in the article.

 

Caste by lineage means nothing. We are living in Kali Yuga, so horrific crimes are being committed and are being justified with caste. In Kali Yuga, we are all sudras and/or lower. The only way to be a true brahmin is by surrendering to the Vaishnav path. Read Brahmana and Vaishnava by Srila Bhaktissidhanta Saraswati Prabhupad.

 

 

[yasodanandana]

"After reading the article below I am considering cancelling my trip to India for holy pilgrimage"

 

the holy pilgrimage is not in india...

 

the holy pilgrimage is in vrindavana, mayapour, puri, badrinath, kedarnath, tirupati, ahobilam, dwaraka, ramesvaram and so on

 

india (a word used by muslim invaders to call who were living beyond the (s)indhu river) belongs to the material world (as the article clearly demonstrates).. and there's no holy pilgrimage to do in the material world.

 

caste and sex discrimination is against spirituality, if you, making a pilgrimage in the holy places, get more spiritual strenght you are actually already working for making the world better

 

choose carefully the place you go, pray, study scriptures, see the deities, temples, places, meet devotees, chant hare krishna

[Guest guest]

Dervish says above in kali yuga we are all sudra or "worse than".

What is so bad about sudras that one could be referred to as "worse than".?

 

[Dervish]

I am not writing about people who were born sudra, the definition of Varnashram in Kali Yuga is not mere birth. Read some verses, please.

 

"Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy." (BG 18.41)

 

"If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification." (SB 7.11.35)

 

"At that time the people in general will fall systematically from the path of a progressive civilization in respect to the qualitative engagements of the castes and the orders of society and the Vedic injunctions. Thus they will be more attracted to economic development for sense gratification, and as a result there will be an unwanted population on the level of dogs and monkeys." (SB 1.18.45)

 

"People who are lowest among men and bewildered by the illusory energy of the Supreme Lord will give up the original varnasrama-dharma and its rules and regulations. They will abandon bathing three times daily and worshiping the Lord. Abandoning cleanliness and neglecting the Supreme Lord, they will accept nonsensical principles. Not regularly bathing or washing their mouths regularly, they will always remain unclean, and they will pluck out their hair. Following a concocted religion, they will flourish. During this age of Kali, people are more inclined to irreligious systems. Consequently these people will naturally deride Vedic authority, the followers of Vedic authority, the brahmanas, the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the devotees." (SB 5.6.10)

 

"The brahmacaris will fail to execute their vows and become generally unclean, the householders will become beggars, the vanaprasthas will live in the villages, and the sannyasis will become greedy for wealth." (SB 12.3.33)

 

kaler dasa-sahasrani

madbhaktah samti bhu-tale

ekavarna bhavisyamti

madbhaktesu gatesu ca

 

"For 10,000 years of Kali such devotees of Mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of My devotees there will be only one varna [outcaste]." (Brahma-vaivarta Purana 4.129.59)

 

Vaisnava verse book:

"Note that this phrase (kalau sudra-sambhavah) originates from the following verse found in the Skanda Purana:

 

asuddhah sudra-kalpa hi

brahmanah kali-sambhavah

 

asuddhah - impure, sudra-kalpa - like sudras, brahmana - brahmanas, kali-sambhavah - born in Kali-yuga, present age of degradation

 

In the Kali-yuga brahmanas will certainly become like (be born as) impure sudras. (Without samskaras and spiritual training, the brahmanas of Kali-yuga are considered sudras.)

 

[Guest guest]

Could u please list the qualities and characteristics of sudras?

[gHari]

BG 14.8

 

O son of Bharata, know that the mode of darkness, born of ignorance, is the delusion of all embodied living entities. The results of this mode are madness, indolence and sleep, which bind the conditioned soul.

 

PURPORT

 

In this verse the specific application of the word tu is very significant. This means that the mode of ignorance is a very peculiar qualification of the embodied soul. The mode of ignorance is just the opposite of the mode of goodness. In the mode of goodness, by development of knowledge, one can understand what is what, but the mode of ignorance is just the opposite. Everyone under the spell of the mode of ignorance becomes mad, and a madman cannot understand what is what. Instead of making advancement, one becomes degraded. The definition of the mode of ignorance is stated in the Vedic literature. Vastu-yāthātmya-jñānāvarakaṃ viparyaya-jñāna-janakaṃ tamaḥ: under the spell of ignorance, one cannot understand a thing as it is. For example, everyone can see that his grandfather has died and therefore he will also die; man is mortal. The children that he conceives will also die. So death is sure. Still, people are madly accumulating money and working very hard all day and night, not caring for the eternal spirit. This is madness. In their madness, they are very reluctant to make advancement in spiritual understanding. Such people are very lazy. When they are invited to associate for spiritual understanding, they are not much interested. They are not even active like the man who is controlled by the mode of passion. Thus another symptom of one embedded in the mode of ignorance is that he sleeps more than is required. Six hours of sleep is sufficient, but a man in the mode of ignorance sleeps at least ten or twelve hours a day. Such a man appears to be always dejected and is addicted to intoxicants and sleeping. These are the symptoms of a person conditioned by the mode of ignorance.

 

 

[krsna]

India is material place

Sri Vrndavana Dhama is most holy spiritual place

In right consciousness

one can percieve Krishna's Spiritual Abode Krsnaloka

 

When people speak to me of India

I think of a very dirty foul place

full of disease and corruption

But Sri Vrndavana Dhama

is nothing like India.

[Guest guest]

What are the qualitities of sudras?

Moreover, who perceives those qualities as "bad" and why?

[ShegavichaRana]

Such things are not common to India alone, though the caste system is prevalent in India. Such types of misbehaviour, ill-treatment happens to a particualr group in most of the coutries under different names. In India, it is the caste-system. You can substitute the term "Minorities" in place of "caste-system" for other countries. You must not be knowing what was originally called as VarnashramaDharma. The present caste-system is a degenerated for of this good Varnashrama Dharma. Surely, you can find such umpteen examples all over the world, India is not the exception. These things are highlighted here, as India is a third world country.

Your pilgrimage should concern with your own spiritual upliftment. If you are really interested in purifying your soul you can surely go ahead!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Do not forget that just 200 years ago western countries were practicing slavery. Mistreatment of others exists everywhere and in every religion. This is the symptom of the age of Kali.

[Dervish]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/02/25/human.trafficking.ap/index.html

 

It's also happening in the US today in 2004.

[Guest guest]

I think western devottees can have a strong voice and be a strong force in India for wiping out these kinds of human rights violations.

If anyone else is interested in the dalit cause of India, please contact me.

Along with bhakti-sadhana I feel we should also help people on a material/practical level if we are able.

Surely I can give some of my time, energy and money to such a worthy cause.

 

 

[Dervish]

The best way we can influence them is by strengthening the naga sankirtan movement to the point where it is the universal standard for varnashrama dharma.

[Guest guest]

Your desire to help the members of the lowest caste is very humanistic and elevated. I wish you all the best in your endeavours.

 

However, I would like to send you just a piece of advice : It is essential in society for everybody to get all the respect a human deserves. However, many Westerners believe that abolishing the class system will solve all the problems of inequality and this is rather erroneous.

 

People who have been beaten, raped, mistreated have generally accumulated a great deal of resentment and hatred towards others. People who have been repressed socially, psychologically or economically have, understandably so, difficulties to hold power in a emotionally balanced way. In other words, people who have suffered so much usually become also abusive. The problem lies in the whole system.

 

If you trust or grant power to people who have suffered repression, they will generally abuse power, to subconsciously revenge from all the wrong that was done to them. And they will generally abuse power against those who are in the same position they were themselves when they suffered abuse. Let me give you some examples :

 

 

O.J. Simpson's Trial

 

The jury brokers hired by the Defense determined that the best candidates to vote in favour of O.J. would be older black women, who have been their whole life victimized by black men. One would have thought that such women would have identified with the victim, but that is not the case. Most of the time, victims adopt their victimisers' values and point of view.

 

Women in Power

 

If you are the least perceptive and possess a minimum of discernment, you have probably noticed how women can be horrible to other women. Since women occupy an inferior position in society, they are often jealous of other women's success, education, hapiness instead of following their example. They feel so desperate, that they will try anything to destroy other women's happiness.

 

This is a very good example, because women in civilized countries have values that are far more 'primitive' and 'inferior' than their male counterparts. Women are capable of terrible manipulation, perfidy, calomny and betrayal of their friends, in a manner which is unconcievable for most men, and specially against other women.

 

This is not surprising. Women, as second class citizens, do not live in the 'light' they live in the shade. They are not socially allowed to express their needs, their concerns. They are more sexist than men, i.e. Blonde jokes.

 

The Problem with Blacks and Minorities

 

Remember the LA riots? The black crowd destroyed all the businesses belonging to the more successful black members of their community, not the property of white people.

 

I was also surprised too to find out 2 things quite prevalent in the black community : 1. Most black young people I know have only one thing in mind : marry white, regardless of love and compatibility. I have heard the prettiest black women say that they will never marry a black man. It is considered as a failure among many of them. 2. I was appalled when I heard many black young women criticize the features or hair of their darker sisters, and call them 'monkey' 'chimpanzees'.

 

Pedophiles and Sexual Predators

 

A study has concluded that pedophiles are mostly attracted by children of a particular age, age that corresponds to the time when they were raped or molested themselves. This suggests that there may be a certain level of subconscious self-hatred or revenge.

 

Physical and Emotional Abuse

 

In the same vein, people who abuse their children, will often use the same methods as their parents : same forms or physical or sexual abuse; same type of manipulation or psychological abuse.

 

Unfortunately, this is the state of facts: people who have suffered social, economical, psychological abuse have a tendency to become abusive themselves (remember Yugoslavia). This is why it is dangerous to abolish the established hierarchy without good planification.

[Guest guest]

for the newbies of this forum...:

 

these wievs have nothing to do with Krsna Consciousness and Hinduism

[Guest guest]

Can you provide any evidence for these words you wrote below. In my entire life I have not seen one example.

 

"Since women occupy an inferior position in society, they are often jealous of other women's success, education, hapiness instead of following their example. They feel so desperate, that they will try anything to destroy other women's happiness.

 

This is a very good example, because women in civilized countries have values that are far more 'primitive' and 'inferior' than their male counterparts. Women are capable of terrible manipulation, perfidy, calomny and betrayal of their friends, in a manner which is unconcievable for most men, and specially against other women.

 

This is not surprising. Women, as second class citizens, do not live in the 'light' they live in the shade. They are not socially allowed to express their needs, their concerns. They are more sexist than men."

 

 

Who are the women that are "trying anything to destroy other women's lives"? Are you talking about the sasural (mother-in-laws) of bahous (daughter-in-laws) of India? In most countries around the world a woman does not live with her in-laws so this point is mute.

 

ALSO. Do you suggest that people who have never been repressed/suppressed/oppressed should not come out of their plight and take control of their lives and contribute as leaders to society? I don't exactly get your point.