CC: Madhya /15/108

Govindaram · March 5, 2004

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/madhya/15/108

Please read the FULL Purport as well, I came upon this verse, I think it has different meanings for different individuals, I would like to hear views of all devotees, if you have any at all, Please NO GUESTS!

Dervish · March 5, 2004

Haribol prabhu,

I am very happy that you pasted the link to this verse and purport. It gives us a chance to read some very deep purports together and offer our impressions to one another. For those of us who cannot attend classes, we have the next best thing here.

Srila Prabhupad gives us the translation which you quoted above, then gives us a series of quotations about the importance of taking initiation and having a bonefide spiritual master. Finally, he uses quotes which stress the importance of simply chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra.

Those who read through it fast may immediately be distracted by a preceived paradox; the importance of solely chanting the holy name, versus the importance of diksa and purascarya process.

Diksa-samskara is a very powerful thing. The process of diksa; fire sacrifice, self-preparation for diksa, acceptance by the spiritual master, produce a very powerful samskara.

However, Namacharya Srila Haridas Thakur never had a brahminical initiation. But hari nama and mantra diksa is taken by many of us, because the samskaras aid us greatly.

When I read Srila Prabhupad's purport, immediately, Sri Guru and His Grace Chapter 9 came to mind. Specifically;

-- BEGIN QUOTE --

Mantra: Circle within a Circle

Jiva Goswami has written that the name of Krsna is the principle thing in the gayatri mantra. Within the mantra, there are also so many other words, but the name is the most important. If the name of Krsna is taken away, and replaced with some other name, the whole thing will be rotten. This is the decision of Jiva Goswami. The holy name of Krsna is all in all. The holy name of Krsna is there in the gayatri mantra, and so many other words are couched there. But if Krsna's name is taken away and replaced with the name of Siva, then the whole thing will go to Siva. The holy name is the all-important factor.

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka : "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or hazy conceptions in our bhajana. The mantra comes to help us only so far.

An example is given of larger and smaller circles. The holy name of Krsna is the larger circle. It extends from the highest to the lowest. The mantra circle is a smaller circle within the larger circle. The mantra cannot reach to the lowest point. The holy name can extend itself down to the lowest position. The mantra gives us entrance into liberation, and then the name carries us further. This is the nature of our connection with the mantra and the name.

The name extends to the lowest position, to the candalas and yavanas. Everyone can receive the name. But everyone is not eligible for the gayatri mantra. Only after one has reached a developed stage can the mantra be conferred upon him. And the mantra's jurisdiction will be finished when liberation is attained. In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi. 7. 73):

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"The Krsna gayatri mantra liberates one from repeated birth and death in this world; the holy name of Krsna gives one shelter at the lotus feet of Krsna." The gayatri mantra helps us achieve liberation, and then the mantra retires. After giving us liberation, the mantra is finished. But the name will continue all along, from the lowest to the highest. In chanting the name, there is no mention of any petition--it is an address only. We should not chant with the mentality that, "I want this." We must simply chant the name spontaneously. That will encourage good will in us. So, because the function of the mantra is limited, but the name is all-important, the nama guru will be honored first, and next, the mantra guru, and then the other Vaisnavas.

-- END QUOTE --

Mantra diksa is not required, yet it accelerates us to chanting suddha nama. Likewise, Srila Prabhupad and shastra says that purascarya is not absolutely required, but stresses on its importance for those embarking on their spiritual life. By engaging in these activities, we bring ourselves closer at a faster rate to chant suddha nama. I strongly believe that the verse was referring to Hare Krsna maha mantra -- suddha nama only.

Govindaram · March 5, 2004

Welcome to Interactive assocociation.

I am still in the process of reading the Verce/Purport again and again, the one thing that I do get from it all, is that the Holy Name is not dependent on anything, so that could be the reason why certain things in the Purport 'may' seem contradictory, i.e should we do diety worship or not?

and how can we do diety worship without initiation?

In the Purport it says Prabhuji, that our minds are impure (whos isn't) therefore diety worship is reccommended, but then it says simply by chanting the Holy name you can attain all perfection, but the 'big' message in the Purport from what I can see is that you MUST approach a Bona-fide Spiritual Master for Initiation, otherwise if he is not, then it is a waste of time.

I am also thinking if you were to in your life, take shelter of a Spiritual Master, and he may fall-down from the path temporarily, then all the work you have done is a waste of time?...

Govindaram · March 5, 2004

Also somewhere else, Srila Prabhupada says if we chant the Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra we are formally Initiated, does this mean if we are following basic rules of His Divine Grace, then we are formally initiated by srila prabhupada? ..and its a matter of time before we meet somebody who is devoted to Prabhupada & Krsna.

Dervish · March 5, 2004

Prabhu, I think it depends on what the definition of maha mantra is in the context of that quotation. Suddha nama is true initiation. When we start to chant nama aparadha and nama abhasa, this pulls the plug of the proverbial fan that represents your karma wheel spinning in motion. Krsna, the all attractive Lord will pull you closer to this path and suddha nama will eventually be chanted. The main obstacle to this path is aparadha; in many forms; Vaishnava aparadha, as well as philosophical aparadha, that is believing in Vaishnavism, but then accepting an impersonalist path. If aparadha is avoided, you will eventually get this true initiation and suddha nama is chanted. Sometimes devotees "fall down"; they may lose their faith for some time, stop chanting, stop following some rules, but you will see in many cases these same "fallen devotees" picking themselves up after some time. For some reason the pastime of Srila Bilvamangala Thakur is coming to mind.

and how can we do diety worship without initiation?

If you're without 2nd initiation, you may not be able to offer bhoga in the proper way or dress and bathe the deities. Still, you can engage in bhajans and kirtan in the deities presense. You can offer to acquire things such as flowers for Them. Absense of mantra diksa does not preclude you from interaction with Sri Vigraha.

gHari · March 5, 2004

When we chant, chant with all our hearts because we could reach Krsna at any breath.

When we find ourselves around a guru who is tattva-darshinah, then we should recognize Krsna's special mercy and humbly accept whatever assistance may be offered us, up to even initiation if the master is willing.

Perhaps Srila Prabhupada knew the varying quality of students that would be considering this verse. Some may have a taste for chanting, for Krsna from previous lives and some may need much more effort to cleanse the heart. It is clear that he didn't want us to reject the regulated process when that is what we really need to get our hearts focused.