Govindaram Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hare Krishna Ok, we are all spirit souls, there is no argument about that! But when we are tranferred to Goloka (!), I read we take on a spiritual body, so our soul (entangled in material nature for krsna knows how long), enters a spiritual body, what kind of body is this exactly? what i mean is, does our soul MERGE with this spiritual body in Goloka? I am sure devotees must have thought about this a lot, and this q' keeps coming up in my mind. Thankyou. Also, then what would the difference be, between our (spiritual body) and Krishna? I read that Uddhava had a simliar bodily features to krishna, and I know that we are ONE entity and Krishna is everywhere, anyway please help me! AND NO GUESTS! PLEASE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Or direct me to where I could find out, please Hare Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 in spiritual realm there's no difference between internal and external, deep and surface, soul and body so we ARE eternally spiritual bodies, we never lose "them", but we do not manifest ourselves as spiritual bodies in the material world... or it is possible to say that we put over the spiritual body, the materal one like wearing a suit, a dress. bodies are infinitely various in the spiritual world, but they are all equally SAT(eternal)CIT(conscious)ANANDA(blissful).. so a "tree" enjoys the spiritual world and the association with krsna and devotees exactly like a "human" or a "rock" or a "bird" "Also, then what would the difference be, between our (spiritual body) and Krishna?" no real difference... the essential one is that our shaktis and siddhis are given and mantained by krsna, not by ourselves... because we are emanations of krsna " I read that Uddhava had a simliar bodily features to krishna" yes.. it is true "and I know that we are ONE entity and Krishna is everywhere" we are also "pervasive".. we extend our influence, life, personality out of our gross body, in other people, in the environment, in objects even in the material world. But simultaneously we remain single persons, well localizated and identified. In the spiritual realm it is more complicated (and less understandable by us) because the three kinds of existence of god (bhagavan, paramatma, brahman) interact variously and inconceivably between themselves (yasoda mata sees the universe in the mouth of krishna and sees herself looking in the mouth of krishna) but indeed krsna has a personal identity, we have a personal identity and we can interact with krishna not losing a bit of our personality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Hare Krishna, Pamho, AgtSP/ The spirit soul is minute (10,000 tip of hair), very small, so compared to a full-blown body (spiritual), it is small, we are The Soul, so just a though, am i complicating things? I should just think the soul needs a body whether material/subtle...spiritual, So, the soul enter a spiritual body, provided by KRSNA, but our soul is still there, it doesn't like merge into the spitirual body, i think this is true, what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 I am under the impression that the form spiritual bodies "take on" is due to the mood of love for Krishna that soul is expressing. If this is true will someone please expand a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 The spirit soul is minute (10,000 tip of hair) this is to say that the soul has no place, no manifest existence, no measurement in the material world... it is like to say that god is nir(without)guna(qualities)... if we see the reality from the material point of view the soul is invisible and inconsistent and god has no qualities, but from the material, mundane point of view, that is not the more evoluted and elevated position to consider spiritual subjects. It works but it is not the best way. I should just think the soul needs a body whether material/subtle...spiritual ••it is philosophically dangerous, because in this way you can think that even in the spirit there's internal and esternal, deep and surface and maybe that god has a "surface" body and a soul without form inside, or that He's an external, illusory form created by maya for the people who cannot understand impersonal brahman read brahma samhita or damodarastaka in spiritual world everything is form, personality, body, sat cit ananda "So, the soul enter a spiritual body, provided by KRSNA, but our soul is still there, it doesn't like merge into the spitirual body, i think this is true, what do you think?" no merging, body and soul are separated realities only in the material world.. we are spiritual complete individuals eternally, but we manifest ourselves in the material world through a material body, like a special dress for a special environment, like for subs under the water... individual or person means form, activities, personality, world, companions so forget the concepts of inside and outside, soul and matter when you are speaking of spiirtual world "namam isvaram satcitananda rupam...." i offer my obeisances to the eternal, blissful and conscious form of god.... this is for krishna, for us it's the same with the difference that he's supreme, we are subordinate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 So then it is something like putting on a space suit when we go to another planet or a diving suit for underwater. We must take on an artifical form for experiencing an alien atmosphere. Like that? The material world being the alien enviroment. Am I correct in thinking the variety of form in the spiritual world is due to the variety of loving moods expressed to Krishna from the minute souls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted March 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 "so forget the concepts of inside and outside, soul and matter when you are speaking of spiirtual world" Thankyou, this was what I was needing, in the spiritual world everything is different, I sort of forgot this (oops)! I am lately getting a lot of questions, like some sort of Jnana-Yogi, which I don't like very much, indeed the answers are there in Prabhupada books, but then ppls who read them also have the answers! The Guestji above, is I think talking about different relationships Devotee have with KRSNA, i.e friendship/mother/father etc. Guestji! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 "I am under the impression that the form spiritual bodies "take on" is due to the mood of love for Krishna that soul is expressing" relatioships are infinitely various, forms are also infinite and surely they depends from krsna's desire, that's the supreme controller, the important thing is that we remember that we are eternally spiritual forms... we do not "take" any body when we go back to godhead "So then it is something like putting on a space suit when we go to another planet or a diving suit for underwater. We must take on an artifical form for experiencing an alien atmosphere. Like that? The material world being the alien enviroment." yes, this world is so alien and unfit for us that we die after some years of living there /images/graemlins/smile.gif "Am I correct in thinking the variety of form in the spiritual world is due to the variety of loving moods expressed to Krishna from the minute souls?" surely yes, everything in the spiritual world is dictated by love between god and devotees, forms, personalities, actions, propensities exist only to please krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 for helping me remember the reality. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Why do the impersonalists not experience their spiritual form upon attaining mukti? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 because krishna does not give you what you do not desire, he respects us you want krishna? he gives krishna you want narasimha? he gives narasimha you want brahman? he gives brahman the problem is that we are active and we do not resist to sleep eternally in brahman, so we come back in the material world to make some activity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 So then would it follow that mere Brahman realization is not only a partial realization of God but also of ourselves, our own true nature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Jai Ganesh Re (AND NO GUESTS! PLEASE! ) Atithi devo bhava. You just dont know what you might learn! Jai Shree Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted March 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 sorry, all guests can now post at will lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasodanandana Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 "So then would it follow that mere Brahman realization is not only a partial realization of God but also of ourselves, our own true nature? " every realization of god is necessarily a realization of our nature but brahman is a partial realization of both natures, our's and god's, because in brahman there's no variety we are active by nature, the source of activity is desire, and desire comes from an object who attracts the mind of a subject through the subject's senses if we realize bhagavan, there's no problem, this is our natural condition, krsna is the all attractive, our senses are attracted by krsna, and this attraction generates various actions, behaviours and feelings: loving exchanges, services, relationships, collaboration between souls to serve krsna, separation and hiding by krsna to increase desire, our sadness because krsna has disappeared and so on if we realize brahman we became one with the whole. to be one means that we perceive only our existence, a big, peaceful, omnipervasive WHOLE that, for some time gives to us the satisfaction of the peace. all problems are at end, there's no more death, no more diseases, no more pain or sorrow, no more quarrelling, no fear, no need, no old age, no problems from the weather, nothing at all, we perceive us as the whole without nothing else.. the only reality is ME, the only existence is ME but, as we have already said, we are ontologically active... and to act we need to desire, and to desire there must be a desire object.. but we perceive only oneness, we are lonely, so we have nothing to desire, there's nothing, that capturing our senses, gives to us a reason to act, to work, to struggle to obtain it as an example when we get out from an illness, from the hospital, it is in itself very nice for a while, but soon we have to use our health to enjoy ourselves in some way, otherwise the satisfaction to be safe and healthy is forgotten very quickly... if our disease were from something like intoxication or risky games or dangerous sexual behaviour or unhealty alimentation or something like that, it is possible that, bored by the inactivity, we choose to come back doing the actions who have caused the disease. We were in the drugs, it was very painful, we have done a big struggle to get out, but we cannot bear for a long time the boring condition of inactivity... very soon we come back to the drugs to get a little satisfaction that we judge much times better than living without problems but also without pleasure Because for us to avoid sorrows is not enough, we want satisfaction... In this way who has realized the impersonal brahman, even if brahman is absolute, even if brahman is also our nature, after some time he comes back in the material world to be attracted by some senses object, to desire, and to act to fulfill this desire... even if he knows that he has struggled so much time to escape all this mess and go in impersonal brahman... do you agree? (if i have made mistakes, please correct me... sorry for my ugly english, i am struggling hard to organize decent explanations with the few words and gramatical rules i know.. please be merciful) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 Hi, I am Muralidhar das, not "guest" This topic is dealt with in Vedanta Sutra: Sampadyavirbhavah svena sabdat - vedanta sutra IV.4.1 In the commerntary of Baladeva Vidyabhusan to this verse 4.4.1 in Vedanta Sutra, (The Original Forms of the Liberated Souls) it states: QUOTE Saàçaya (doubt): Does the liberated soul attain a body, like the bodies of the demigods, that is different from himself, or does the manifest his original identity, which is not different from himself? ... Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa The individual spirit soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sütra explains, "svena-çabdät" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts that form, which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. ------------------ I have put the English translation of this section of Vedanta Sutra here http://www.mandala.com.au/books/Vs-4-4-1.doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 Is the quote from Vedanta Sutra clear? The soul entering the spiritual world manifests a spiritual body that arises from within himself / herself. The liberated souls do not enter into a spiritual body different from their self. When you are liberated, you will "become yourself", or "become manifest as yourself" in the spiritual world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonehearted Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 Excellent and as clear as can be. Thank you, Murali, as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2004 Report Share Posted March 12, 2004 "I am under the impression that the form spiritual bodies "take on" is due to the mood of love for Krishna that soul is expressing. If this is true will someone please expand a bit. " Yes that is correct as Krishna explains in Gita in the verse "yam yam vapi smaran". What you think all your life, at the end of your life you will also think that automatically and attain that. But your desire to pursue a particular mood may be predestined due to your original non-manifested spiritual form or as Baladeva mentions, it can be that it is Krishna's desire that different people be inspired to love Him in different moods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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