vartma-pradarsaka-guru

[Dervish]

Haribol!

 

Srila Prabhupad has referred to the potency of Sri Guru; diksa guru, caitya guru, siksa guru, vartma-pradarsaka-guru, etc.

 

I understand vartma-pradarsaka-guru as the one who introduced you to Krsna consciousness. For many of us, this person would be a devotee doing various forms of preaching on the street (a sankirtan participant, book seller, etc.) or possibly someone at a sunday feast.

 

What happens if the vartma-pradarsaka-guru is no longer serious about Krsna consciousness, or simply never was? I don't want to be quick to criticize so-called "falldowns" (some of which are temporary, and shouldn't even be referred to), but am curious about vartma-pradarsaka-guru. If the vartma-pradarsaka-guru is not Mahabhagavat, is s/he acting as an instrument of the chaitya guru?

 

Thank you!

[Guest guest]

The only guru you have to be concerned about, regarding his falldown or not, effecting yours, is the diksa guru. Then again, falldown and guru are not synonomous terms now are they. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

the concern is for siksa too, he must have the same features of diksa, the relationship is the same as diksa

[stonehearted]

Dervish: What happens if the vartma-pradarsaka-guru is no longer serious about Krsna consciousness, or simply never

was? I don't want to be quick to criticize so-called "falldowns" (some of which are temporary, and shouldn't

even be referred to), but am curious about vartma-pradarsaka-guru. If the vartma-pradarsaka-guru is not

Mahabhagavat, is s/he acting as an instrument of the chaitya guru?

 

Babhru: Of course s/he is. Do you think Krishna is so poor that He can act only through mahabagavata devotees?

 

Actually, we should understand that all falldowns are temporary. Our real condition is Krishna consciousness. Read SB 1.5.17 and 19 and their purports.

 

I have two devotees whom I consider Vartma-pradarshaka gurus. One is preaching very nicely now and has an ashram on Maui and a few dozen disciples, some of whom are wonderful, exemplary devotees. The other is apparently not practiciing krishna consciousness now. However, I still revere him and my gratitude for all the help he has given me cannot be measured. Other devotees may ct\riticize him, but I don't want to hear it. I know how dear he is to Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

the concern is for siksa too, he must have the same features of diksa, the relationship is the same as diksa

 

 

It would be nice to see a list from Prabhuapda's books, etc., of the qualifications one must meeet who is siksa guru. Does anyone have such a list? Thanks.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[stonehearted]

Pritha: It would be nice to see a list from Prabhuapda's books, etc., of the qualifications one must meeet who is siksa guru. Does anyone have such a list? Thanks.

 

How about

There is no authority superior to Sri Krsna, and if we stick to this principle, we can become gurus. We don't need to change our position to become a guru. All we have to do is follow in the disciplic succession stemming from Sri Krsna. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised: amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 7.128). Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed people to learn from Him and then go teach people within their own villages. One may think, "I am illiterate and have no education. I was not born in a very high family. How can I become a guru?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that it is not very difficult. Yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "Simply speak whatever Krsna speaks. Then you become a guru."

 

or

 

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam

 

TRANSLATION

Therefore any person who seriously desires real happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of the bona fide guru is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters.

 

As you know, Srila Prabhupada repeatedly said that the qialification for becoming a spiritual master is to repeat the message of Krishna as you hear it from your own spiritual master. It's not as though there's a hierarchy of gurus--diksa guru is higher than siksha guru, which is higher than vartma-pradarshaka guru. This differences are in function with regard to a particular disciple. Is Vipin Bihari Goswami higher than Jagannath das babaji? Not from our perspective.

 

The qualification for becoming a spiritual master is that we are sincere disciples and serve our guru without duplicity.

[Guest guest]

Nah, that's not what I'm searching for Babru, and you know that. hehehe /images/graemlins/smile.gif Ok, but seriously, say for example out on sankirtana, you preach to someone. So for that momment you may feel especially pure too. But you know you are still a work in process. Yet, any preacher is considered siksa, at least for that moment. Yet, I have read quotes that the siksa must be highly qualfied. Other quotes however, saw otherwise. So, what I am looking for is a clear list of siksa guru. Only siksa by the way. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

YS,

Prtha dd

(I really need to start signing in if I'm gonna start posting again. Yeah, I know it. But still have lots of work to do so not sure how much I can post quite yet.)

[stonehearted]

If it's there, show it to us.

[Guest guest]

My apologies Babru, if I was a bit too harsh in my previous post. I have just now done a folio search and I better understand why you (also) may have slected that quote. There really isn't a whole lot!

 

I did see one tho, that said the diksa is one but the siksa can be many. Still, thats not about qualifications. As I think about that tho, it makes me wonder............ if it was not pointed out very much, than maybe its not as important. Not saying it isn't important, just that qualificaiton of diksa is most important. Anyway, I could not find a list of qualificaitons of siksa, but this can not be left to personal opinions.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[stonehearted]

Pritha: I did see one tho, that said the diksa is one but the siksa can be many. Still, thats not about qualifications. As I think about that tho, it makes me wonder............ if it was not pointed out very much, than maybe its not as important. Not saying it isn't important, just that qualificaiton of diksa is most important. Anyway, I could not find a list of qualificaitons of siksa, but this can not be left to personal opinions.

 

That diksha is one and siksha may be many does not mean--or even imply--that there's any distinction in the qualifications. And you're right; it cannot be left to speculation. Follow shastra and you'll be fine. Srila Prabhupada answers the question throughout his books, and it's all over his lectures. Rather than look for quotations out of their context, we need to carefully study all his books, as he instructed us. He told me once that everything would be revealed to me by this process.

 

Try, for example, the very first section of Ch. 7 of Nectar of Devotion. Does he distinguish between siksha and diksha guru there? Anywhere? The fact is that he expects a lot of all of his disciples: he expects us all to become qualified to give Krishna bhakti to those we meet.

[Guest guest]

What makes you think I am looking for things out of context? Because I dont put the entire chapter there? I mean, I always include enough of either the paragraph or topic if need be, to get the answer. So I dont know why this idea that looking for quotes automatically means something is being taken out of context. I disagree.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[stonehearted]

My point is that we need to read the books. That's all. Srila Prabhupada told us to study the books. That gives us the truth. A quotation grabbed from here or there may or may not. Srila Prabhupada wants us to become bhagavatas, not dilettantes.

 

Look--I been teaching this stuff in college for 15 years, and I studied law and worked as a paralegal for a while in the '70s, so I have an idea how this works.

[Guest guest]

for example the sri guruvastakam and sri guru vandanam do not say diksa or siksa and many times our parampara successions are by siksa not by diksa (that is usually diksa + siksa of course)

 

many times we call siksa going to a little more expert devotee that we like to associate with, and asking some suggestion feeling ourselves free to follow or not

 

this is not siksa-sisya relationship, this is friendship..

 

siksa guru is "janme janme prabhu sei"

[Guest guest]

 

My point is that we need to read the books. That's all. Srila Prabhupada told us to study the books. That gives us the truth. A quotation grabbed from here or there may or may not. Srila Prabhupada wants us to become bhagavatas, not dilettantes.

 

Look--I been teaching this stuff in college for 15 years, and I studied law and worked as a paralegal for a while in the '70s, so I have an idea how this works. [/qote]

 

And what makes you think I have not been reading Prabhuapda's books since the 70s?

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Guest guest]

Your assuming I dont read Prabhupada's books. This is not true.

 

YS,

Prtha dd

[Priitaa]

I realized I had to sign in cuz I can't edit the mistakes on on my posts, and as well as end up making more posts then necessary since I can't add on, so thanks for tolerating. /images/graemlins/smile.gif With that said.......

 

I had heard that Prabhuapda said even a coolie can be siksa guru. So I looked it up. Tho he does not use the word 'siksa' here, I feel that is what he means, especially after reading the next quote following it. Tho to each, their own. Anyway, thats my opinion on it.

 

----

 

"This is guru. Suppose you are family member. So many living entities, you sons, your daughters, your daughter-in-law, or children, you can become their guru. Exactly like this you can sit down in the evening and talk about the Bhagavad-gita, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. You haven't got to manufacture something. The instruction is there; you simply repeat and let them hear--you become guru. It is not difficult at all. So that is our preaching. We do not want to become alone guru, but we want to preach in such a way that every, the chief man, or any man, he can become guru in his surroundings. Anyone can do that. Even a coolie, he can also, he has got family, he has got friends, so even though he is illiterate, he can hear the instruction of Krsna, and he can preach the same. This we want. And we invite all respectable gentlemen, leaders, to learn this, it is very simple: man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru, and by executing this order of Krsna, he assures, mam evaisyasi, "You come to Me." Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya. Very easy thing." BG 7.1, Bombay, India

 

----

"Prabhupada: That is... Therefore the Vedas says, tad-vijnanartham: "In order to know that transcendental science," sa gurum evabhigacchet, "he must go to a guru. He must approach." A guru means not bogus guru. One who knows expert. But one has to do that. There is no other alternative. That is the injunction of every Vedic sastra. And this order is from the Kathopanisad. Then, on the Bhagavad-gita the same thing is said, tad viddhi pranipatena. Pranipata means surrender. Surrender where? Where to surrender? To a coolie? No, to a superior person, guru. Similarly, Bhagavata says, tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasur sreya uttamam: "One who is inquisitive to understand the spiritual science," tasmad, "therefore," gurum prapadyeta, "must surrender to a guru." Just our, this morning prayer is guru, beginning of life, beginning of day's work, first worshiping guru. Samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-tranaya-karunya-ghanaghanatvam, praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya vande guroh sri-caranaravindam. So in our, this Vedic way of life, to accept guru is essential. Even big, big acarya... Even Krsna, He accepted guru, Sandipani Muni. Lord Caitanya accepted guru, Isvara Puri. They are perfect, but still, the ways They are showing because They are acarya. Krsna is teaching, taking the part of the acarya, so he is also accepting, although the fact is as soon as went to, within a few days He learned everything. That is stated in our Krsna Book. " Room Conversation, January 17, 1971, Allahabad

[stonehearted]

Pritha: Your assuming I dont read Prabhupada's books. This is not true.

 

I'm assuming no such thing. It never even occurred to me. However, I think that studying the philosophy as a whole is more likely to yield genuine realization than just quotations on our favorite issues of debate. That's all.

 

I'm sorry if you think I have such disdain for you and your spiritual life. If that were true, I wouldn't engage with you at all.

[Priitaa]

Babru, I dont feel you are distain for me or my spiritual life at all. Or I would not bother replying to anything. ha And actually, I know you always mean well. Maybe its just that 'teacher' syndrome. /images/graemlins/smile.gif As that is just how it sounds to me. But no big deal, we've all been there. I taught (only elementary) for a few years, so here we have two teachers trying to teach each other maybe. LOL

[stonehearted]

That's a wonderful quotation, but your interpolation is unnecessary. Srila Prabhupada makes no such distinction. When one teaches others, his (or her) realization will no doubt grow by Krishna's grace, and the relationship he or she has with those who hear also grows. Perhaps initiation comes naturally after some time. Srila Prabhupada never set out to be guru; he simply dedicated every fiber of his being to faithfully serving his own guru ny delivering the teachings of Lord Chaitanya to as many souls as possible. That's a disciple. When the disciple's realization matures, it may naturally yield the fruit of a spiritual family, just as when a young man or woman mature, they may naturally develop a family of their own. This is what we see in the lives of our acharya, and what we see in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma.

[Guest guest]

myself of a very dangerous tendancy. Having become somewhat aware of some of the basics of Prabhupada's books my mind developed this habit of not checking with his books before I spook and just filled in the blanks with my own speculation instead.

 

It is not possible to calculate how much damage I may have done because of this laziness.

[Priitaa]

What "interpolation?" I'm not allowed to have an opinion? I was merely explaining my point of view, and said so. For that matter, I could claim your comment, that Prabhuapda makes no such distinction, is an interpolation as well. Especially since I see it as a very clear distinction! In one quote he says a coolie can even be guru, in the other he says he can not. Therefore, how could both be true if he is not speaking of different types of gurus, siksa and diksa? Show me otherwise and I'll change my mind.

 

Anyway, that is my understanding of Srila Prabhuapada's writings and until proven otherwise, I'll stick to it.

[stonehearted]

I've been a teacher since I started the Hawaii gurukula in 1979, and I've been teaching English in college since 1989. I don't apologize for either. Teaching means giving, as does preaching. We're sharing our realizations here (kathayantas ca man nityam). Our experience and understandings may not be exactly identical. Isn't that okay? Isn't our Gaudiya darshan broad and profound enough to accommodate different perspectives? That's what Srila Prabhupada teaches us, anyway.

[Priitaa]

 

myself of a very dangerous tendancy. Having become somewhat aware of some of the basics of Prabhupada's books my mind developed this habit of not checking with his books before I spook and just filled in the blanks with my own speculation instead.

 

It is not possible to calculate how much damage I may have done because of this laziness.

 

 

No, no, no! Please dont feel you can't speak simply because you are less then perfect or may make a mistake. My goodness, we all make mistakes and my name is way up there on that list. ha Its one of the 4 human propensities, and its also why we need each others associaiton so very much. Besides, I am not even saying you made a mistake, only because you feel like this. So please, dont beat yourself up. Haribol. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Priitaa]

Babru,

 

What ever made you feel being a teacher is something you needed to apologize for? I find it to be a wonderful profession! I admit, there are times I have missed it myself (tho am also fried). If you can go on with it - great! And of course we dont have to agree. I may have firm opinions, as you know lol, but I am always open to hearing the opinions and viewpoints of others.

[Priitaa]

Babru,

 

I have a closet full of childrens books, especially 'how to read' literature. Teaching the little ones is something I miss. Watching their face light up when they learn to recognize their first word is incredible. I know how to teach a 3 1/2 year old to read and have done it. However, these books remain in my closet and probably will continue to do so. Teaching for ISKCON is too political, and too stressful. There was always some extra problem instead of some extra relief. Money was a major issue and not enough went toward the kids. In one temple, they felt they had a teacher and did not need books! Or wanting to move the Gurukula to a location where the children would have to cross a dangerous highway - one that we would hear cars suddenly put on their beaks at the stop sign at least once a day! I refused to move the school, which did not make me very popular. Anyway, this list can go on, but you get the drift. If ever I teach again, it would be on my own, and as I get older (plus my health isn't that good), I prefer my online job. Such is life. But ya never know, someday those books in my closet may find a reason to come out of hiding. /images/graemlins/smile.gif