varnashrama and the exodus from ISKCON

[Guest guest]

Solutions for the lack of Prabhupadas desire being fullfilled within Iskcon.

 

Why have most people who join Iskcon leave ? When I first joined it was an average of 3 years before a person left and that was over 25 years ago I don't know what the average is today.

 

Money is often times the major consideration especially for those who desire to get married or who are married, also the 4 regulative principles become another major reason for people leaving, then there are the politics or personal problems within the community between individuals for an assorted variety of reasons.

 

These are the 3 broad categories for most people who have left although others have left for other reasons as well.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted to set up self sufficient communties based on the varnashrama concept found in the ancient vedic civilization, He stressed this in His last days among us, my view is that He saw that Iskcon had grown into something much more then a typical religious organization of priests, temples, and congregations, the next step was to create a microcosm of vedic high civilization for the Vaishnava community that had grown up around His teachings.

 

The lack of this has led Iskcon to the present revolving door phenomena, it lacks the foundational structure and far seeing guidance to see it through to the next phase of the evolution of Sri Caitanya's 20th century movement.

 

What needs to be changed for this to take effect ?

 

First we need to change the culture of Iskcon's attitude towards the Vaishnava community at large, It is a given that to work within the Iskcon structure the requirements are there that one lead a renounced lifestyle of following the 4 regulative principles (or be seen to be doing such) and to renounce all or any kind of "sense gratification" such as entertainment from media including movies, television, theatre, concerts and the like.

 

This is a major stumbling block for the growth of the Iskcon varnashrama segueway.

 

While these are seen as a stigmatizing and illicit and intolerable field of activities within Iskcon today (at least that is the official view) the need for the growth and retention of a devoted following who will dedicate themselves to Iskcon varnashrama projects is hampered by these attitudes.

 

Room conversation in Mayapura, February 14, 1977

 

 

Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, ksatriyas. There must be regular education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brahmana, certain section as ksatriya, certain section as vaisya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a sudra family. Take education. Be qualified.

Hari-Sauri: But in our community as it is, we are training up as Vaisnavas...

Prabhupada: Vaisnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaisnava. It is not so easy to become Vaisnava.

Hari-Sauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava, to become Vaisnava, is not so easy. If to become Vaisnava is so easy, why so many fall down? It is not easy.

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be happy.

Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-Sauri: Unless one is particularly inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a Sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-Sauri: For Krsna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he'll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to th at pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krsna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

Hari-Sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krsna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhirataù?

Hari-Sauri: sve sve karmany ab hirataù saàsiddhià labhate naraù sva-karma-nirataù siddhià yatha vindati tac chrnu By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

Hari-Sauri: So in Mayapura here now we have that situation, that so many...

Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhirataù. Brahmana has his duty, ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work of sudra, or vaisya. He'll become perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a sannyasi and fall down and b ecome a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Lord Visnu can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous?

Hari-Sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-Sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now yo u can do something. Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, “Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain.” No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama.

Hari-Sauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varnasrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...

Prabhupada: At least... At least... At least they will see, “This is the ideal.” Ideal. We are giving the ideal. We are not going to be a sudra. But to show ... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.

Hari-Sauri: No.

Prabhupada: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.

Hari-Sauri: Well, again, that's...

Prabhupada: Not necessarily that we are going to be sudra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Krsna. That's all. And as servant of Krsna, we have to execute the order of Krsna.

Satsvarupa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.

Prabhupada: Yes. In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varnasrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varnasrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

So here we see Prabhupada telling us that now we should attempt to arrange the varnashram, yet almost 30 years later it has been a failure.

 

Prabhupada was making the point in the above that there is a difference between standards of brahman behavior and the rest and if we try to artifically impose the brahman standard on the rest it will be a cause of falldown leading to stigmatizing and leaving and inhibiting more people from contributing.

 

So first off this is a major problem that needs to be dealt with in Iskcon by the leadership, You cannot continue to demand submission to the 4 regs and no "sense gratification" and it's resulting stigmatizing effect.

 

This is like telling people that they are joining the spiritual world on earth in Iskcon, while speaking boldly about vedic culture as the paradigm of tolerant peacefull and open hearted culture that Iskcon is bringing to the world they then see the reality of treating them like they are supposed to live life like mendicants or be objects of ridicule,stigmatizing,banishment and loss of home and wealth and worse.

 

As Prabhupada pointed out it will not work, in fact it not only fails but it creates the revolving door policy and seeking for association in other groups who do not demand or stigmatize.

 

This self defeating style of management is encourgaged by the myth that this is what Prabhupada wanted, as we can read above he was against this kind of institutionalized forced brahminical behavior, He makes it clear that the attitude he created was temporary and that the time had come to change.

 

Varnashrama communites is the next step, it can create jobs and wealth and attract and keep people from leaving, it will keep Iskcon from being the stagnant revolving door it has been for the last few decades, the fear that many in Iskcon upper management have is of the other organizations competing for followers and draining the ones they have away, they try and spin the problem as being a theological one based on subtle differences within the teachings of the acharyas within each institution. The real problem is not other acharyas they are the symptom not the disease, the real problem is of a narrow approach of what is tolerable and who is qualified to serve within the Iskcon community.

 

As long as the current mode of the enforcement of standards of personal "morality" and quantity of sadhana performed in order to qualify someone to be an acceptable member of the community and able to contribute and work for Iskcon remains the same, then Srila Prabhupadas stated vision in the above talk will not be realized, why shoot yourself in the foot if you need to run a race ?

 

Vedic culture is what Prabhupada wanted as the next phase of Iskcon, he wanted real vedic culture as opposed to the current temple lifestyle, real vedic culture is not oppressive or stigmatizing the way Iskcon tends to be resulting in the continuing revolving door.

[Govindaram]

 

jaya NITAI!

 

 

This has to be one of the most positive/inspiring posts I have seen for a long time, but anyway..

 

Having a Varna system will attract masses of ppls, always you hear 'why can't the world be peacefull'...

 

<font color="red"> =====

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, "Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra..."

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

===== </font color>

 

{Lecture on Varna}

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Bhagavatam/text/561.html

 

[Kulapavana]

varnashrama starts with knowing what is your varna and acting accordingly. most devotees and big leaders REFUSE to openly declare their varna or even think about it. they will spend a lot of money consulting astrologers, but refuse to consider their varna and act accordingly! LOL! I have openly declared my varna (kshatriya) many years ago and tried to act accordingly. yes, it can be hard at times, but it DID improve my life and my service to Krishna and Vaishnavas.

 

So... my question to all of you: what is your varna, and are you trying to act according to it?

[Guest guest]

varna is essentially the way of life that one lives naturally without frustration

 

for arjuna is natural to live according ksatrya style

 

it is not so important, whatever life one wants to live he has simply to chant hare krishna remaining in his own lifestyle and avoiding violent and dirty habits, this is the only way to really advance in krsna consciousness

 

(why you feel to be a ksatrya? what's your job in the life?)

[Kulapavana]

"it is not so important, whatever life one wants to live he has simply to chant hare krishna remaining in his own lifestyle and avoiding violent and dirty habits, this is the only way to really advance in krsna consciousness"

 

on an individual level, that may be so, but if we want to establish varnashrama system as SP wanted (this is a direct, important order of my guru, not a minor detail) varna must be seen as essential.

 

"(why you feel to be a ksatrya? what's your job in the life?)"

 

I come from a long line of kshatriyas and I work as a manager (I have worked in that capacity most of my adult life, including service in our Movement). I have some military background and strong interest in different forms of protection). You can say that varna determination was easy for me.

[Guest guest]

on an individual level, that may be so, but if we want to establish varnashrama system as SP wanted (this is a direct, important order of my guru, not a minor detail) varna must be seen as essential.

 

i do believe that it is essential! to establish varnashrama simply we have to stress with preaching that real krsna consciousness is to remain at our place in the society and chant hare krishna (the opposite of what we have to do for many years)

 

i do not see committees of devotes saying people "you are ksatrya", "you brahmana", "you sudra"

 

when one comes in contact with krsna consciousness after a few time, feeling that the ideal model of krsna devotee is the monk (brahmachary), he has the same doubts of arjuna: "do i have to give up my job and family and join the temple community?" or "may i reach perfection if i go on with my job and social status, or it is better to stop everything and wait for krsna's grace, the moment when i will be able to "renounce"?"

 

if we answer like we did in the past "ehem... at home it is almost impossible" we go against dharma, if we answer "of course you remain in the society, it is not possible to make any advancement if you do not execute your karma (given by sri krsna bhagavan) turning it in yoga" we are autometically preaching varnashrama dharma

 

or better... varna is already there, there's no separate efforts to do, we have only to preach to people avoiding to suggest varna changes.. in this way the devotees will meet, and automatically they will develope commerce, industry, agriculture, hospitals etc. together

 

iskcon as organization is made by priests.. iskcon cannot suggest practical solutions for jobs, communities and businesses, but he can and has to give doctrinal and spiritual advices to the devotees starting their projects on their own

 

i do not remember exactly the lila but there was a devotee doing something in politics and prabhupada was encouraging him.. and he said something like: "if devotees take the government you, prabhupada, will be the king" and prabhupada: "no.. you will be the king, i will be the spiritual master of the king"

 

so iskcon (and various other gaudya maths) as official organization remains a church, the "baptized"(=initiated) people can belong to any social class and naturally they like to organize them selves to associate according to their propensions, even in the job or living in some place together and so on

 

if you are a manager (vaisha+ksatrya) and i am a simple worker (sudra) i will ideally like more to work in your society than in a "karmi's" one

 

it is natural, i do not see how a church councile or vatican or gbc or temple president can decide for my practical life on this particular subject, krsna do not suggest a job to arjuna

 

harekrishna

[Kulapavana]

if it was as simple as just practicing KC at home(which you seem to imply) SP would not say that 50% of his mission remains unfinished. He had a vision of practical devotional communities (I live in one, and trust me - it is NOT a simple project!), schools, etc. as well as preaching centers.

[Guest guest]

i know and i have read many times of the prabhupada's vision... it is not absolutely easy,,, and it have to be done privately by grihastas with common professional goals, not by iskcon organization directly

 

of course if we do not implement varnashrama we are not promoting krsna consciousness so i understand the concern of srila prabhupada, but we have to done it privately

 

of course a temple can open restaurants, guest houses, give land to farm or cow protection/raising, open shops and call grihastas to work in them, but that's all

 

varnashrama is to preach that one can remain in his position and chant hare krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Frankly, Varnashrama has outlived its purpose. It is irrelevant to the 21st century. I really wonder how anyone can decide one's varna-it is impossible. Today you have one interest, and tomorrow, another, so how is it possible? Say I discover my varna to be Brahmana, then there is a reawakened interest in Kshatriya dharma, what am i to do? Just forget about it because I've chosen my varna already? This is why Hinduism declined, because they were unable to go beyond these artificial restrictions. The reason why Muslims have prospered is because they believe in individual freedom and not in this suffocating trap called Varna Dharma. Think about it.

[Guest guest]

varna is unavoidable, society divisions are manifest, you by your karma and guna take naturally a place

 

and you must follow krsna consciousness without any social change, for example turning in a priest or monk

 

this is varnashrama system... the thing that you have spoken of is caste discrimination not varnashrama system, very different .. maybe opposite

[Kulapavana]

"varnashrama is to preach that one can remain in his position and chant hare krishna"

 

with all due respect: LOL!

[Kulapavana]

"Varnashrama has outlived its purpose"

 

what is going on in India now has almost nothing to do with varnashrama. if you cant figure out your varna you are most likely neither a kshatriya nor a brahmana. varnas are not at all artificial - but caste system is... study Gita if you think that varnashrama is artificial.

[Guest guest]

We need only be ourselves, honestly admitting our shortcomings before God, while worshipping Radha-Krsna and their devotees, always aware of the need for mercy and His Divine Grace. Best to never consider oneself a devotee, but only the most worthless servant of all.

 

Taste that develops through association should cause pain in our hearts as we realize just how far short of true devotion we actually are. In this frame of mind and with fully feeling, desperately taking the Holy Names as our sole shelter, progress can be very rapid indeed.

 

The main problem is our tendency to measure it in relation to our peers which inevitably leads to fault-finding. Since we are not ultimately in control of our destinies, let alone others', there is no need for most of us to define our positions in a spiritual sense. Lowest is best and small is even better...

[Guest guest]

it is ok, but what is the sense of your message in relation to varnashrama system

[Guest guest]

I never referred to India, but i do maintain that it will backfire anywhere, whether India or US or Mars. Such is human nature. And no, I am not talking about caste system either, even when you call it varnasrama, it is still faulty. I've read BG and I cannot say I am impressed. It is all talk and no show. It is easy to say varna depends on guna and karma, but in real life, no man would say, "I am sudra based on my guna and karma." He'd rather say he is brahmin or kshatriya, so how to determine? So you see, even trying to determine the damn thing is gonna confuse you no end and by the time you reach a conclusion, you might be eighty. So isnt it better to discard this faulty system and find something new?

[Guest guest]

I think from the responses many of you and clearly Iskcon as well has not understood what Prabhupada meant, lets examine.

 

 

 

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

 

That is clear enough, but another devotee asks again the same question.

 

 

 

Hari-Sauri: Varnasrama system is beneficial. Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-Sauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody should become brahmana.

 

 

Prabhupada tells Him what is the difficulty ?

 

 

 

Hari-Sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.

 

Hari-Sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a ksatriya. You'll be happy.

 

Hari-Sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

 

The devotee is missing the point He is thinking in terms of making the standards higher while Prabhupada is speaking the opposite intent.

 

 

 

Satsvarupa: Today you've been saying that the Vaisnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaisnava everyone, even if he's not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. But you have to gradually bring him to th at pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krsna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaisnava. But because he's a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaisnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore the system must be present. But even if he remains a sudra, he's a Vaisnava.

 

 

 

Again the devotee misses the point He is thinking in terms of giving people roles to play or positions to fullfill while Prabhupada is speaking on a different topic, He is making it clear that the standards of Brahmana behavior that He insitituted needs to be changed in order that Iskcon not become a place of people artifically acting trying to be what they are not.

 

 

 

Hari-Sauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

 

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need.

 

 

So here we get to the crux of the problem, Clearly this has been misunderstood to mean business as usual, the devotee is still thinking in terms of changing Iskcon into a different thing altogether, Prabhupada says no you dont have to change what is there you have to stop imposing artificial standards on the people, why artificially impose brahmana standards on everybody he asks, there is no need he replies.

 

But still the devotees don't get it they are thinking in terms of some kind of shift of activity for Iskcon when Prabhupada is speaking about a shift of priority from imposing brahmana standards on everyone to ending that.

 

 

 

Hari-Sauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?

 

Prabhupada: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakara. We have to keep them in the right position.

Hari-Sauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varnasrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.

 

 

Since they are not getting what He means Prabhupada explains.

 

 

 

Every business is important. Brahmana business is important, ksatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, “Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain.” No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varnasrama.

 

 

So here he explains that what Iskcon had been doing was that everybody was acting as brahmana, following strict rules of renunication imposed on everybody regardless of their nature, Now He is saying it is time to change Iskcon into the traditional vedic society where no strict rules are applied across the board in order for someone to be accepted, Iskcon had been created as a strictly almost monastic renunciate society, that was for the purpose of rapidly focusing everyone from western backgrounds on the basics of the religious tradition and get that set up, Now is the time He was saying to change these attitudes and shift into the traditional vedic mode, there is no rush to set up centers and fix people up in the philosophy anymore so now we need to start treating everyone in the traditional manner, WITHIN ISKCON, He makes this quite clear that He wants Iskcon to change from artifically imposing restrictions of who can participate based on the highest standards of brahmana priests to the

traditional vedic society which had no restictions or impositions.

 

This is what He was talking about, it wasn't that He was trying to create a type of "you are sudra, you are this or that " kind of attitude , which is what the devotees were thinking, rather He was saying that Iskcon needs to accept people without trying to impose upon them artifical standards of behavior, then these people will not fall back into material life, then they will stay within Iskcon.

 

But the devotees misunderstood, they were thinking in terms of creating a new kind of artifical system instead of getting rid of the old artifical system.

 

Prabhupada clearly was speaking about changing the culture of Iskcon away from imposing standards of behavior and enforcing rules and regulations across the board on everyone, this is what needs to be changed, this is what keeps people leaving and or not participating, it is the artifical imposing and enforcement of the highest brahman standards on everyone, and this is EXACTLY what Prabhupada wanted to change, by simply changing that then varnashrama within Iskcon will naturally take off, simply because instead of leaving Iskcon due to not wanting to live a life of harsh restrictions combined with the culture of stigmatizing those who do not follow those rules , the devotees will stay and want to work utilizing their abilties for the Vaishnava society as a whole. It's impossible to create what Prabhupada wanted if you misunderstand what He wanted, and it is impossible to change Iskcon the way he wanted unless the artificially imposing of and enforcement of the highest standards is ended as He wanted, then people will naturally be attracted to live in vaishnava communities creating real varnashrama without some artifical imposition or outdated

form of Iskcon as Prabhupada himself called it.

[Guest guest]

the system is not to discard or accept, the system is there, some one is blonde, some one is black eyed, some one is a manager, someone is a musician

 

surely it is strange the scene of people in line waiting for a brahmin to know if one's a lawyer or a cook

 

 

and bhagavd gita has nothing to do with it, krsna does not give any social advice to arjuna, he respects the arjuna's freedom to follow his own life saying that if he wants to fully surrender he has to remain in his position

 

so, seeing from the ideas you have expressed in the messages, you should be pleased by bhagavad gita who does not promote any external imposition (in this sense, in social sense) even by god!

i repeat.. varnashrama is not at all an imposition of social status by external autority but the principle that one can reach god whatever position he has in the society

(a known application of this principle is that in gaudya vaishnava the brahmana (=priest) status is given to people coming from any class and they are not requested to take a different position in the society)

[sudhaya]

 

 

Morning Walk

December 8, 1973, Los Angeles

Prabhupada: ...daiva-varnasrama. My Guru Maharaja wanted this that there be regular varnasrama, qualified. It is not the monopoly of India that brahmanas are born there. No. No, you are all brahmanas. Otherwise how can I allow you to worship Deity? Hmm. What is that?