Caste discrimination at Mantralayam

[gokulkr]

I visited Mantralayam - abode of Sri Raghavendraswamy.

 

" in Mantralayam i was allowed to have darshan of "guru raghavendra" only from a distance because i am a a sourashtra brahmin (not a madhva brahmin)". But Madhva brahmins were allowed to go near the rayarus brindavan. when i asked permission to enter, they gave a staring look at me as though i am a sudra.

Note : Even "Iyengars" were not allowed near the brindavan.Only Madhvas were allowed.

 

some other caste devotees tried to touch the golden chariot but madhva priests scolded them as telling them as sudras. But i boldly went & touched the chariot by chanting "Om namo bhagavathe vasudevaya". so they couldnt able to scold me.

 

i dont like this kinda caste discrimination in "Mantralayam" & other "dwaita" mutts.

 

I have lost all respect i had towards "Dwaitham". Of course, i still respect "Sri madhwacharya". i think these priests are misusing dwaitham. i dont think God Narayana will love these secretarial madhva brahmins.

 

Hereafter i wont visit any madhwa mutts .

 

i didnt see any caste discrimination in "Sri Ramanuja's abode - Sri perumbuthur". everyone are allowed to have darshan of Sri Ramanuja.

 

Hereafter i will visit only Sri Ramanuja shrines & vishnu temples.I will not hereafter support dwaitham.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Sivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

[Guest guest]

I think that sectarionism is a sick way of looking at Hinduism which is so beautiful and inclusive and loving. I am from USA, my husband being from Andhra Pradesh, and I know I am not allowed in many temples in Tamil Nadu and others. However, as long as Lord Venkateshwara at Tirumala allows me to come to His temple I will be very happy, you know?

 

Om namo Venkateshaya!

[Guest guest]

Entering temples of Tamilnadu and other places.

 

1. One is not supposed to enter the temple without bath.

2. One is not supposed to enter the temple after eating meat.

3. Females are not supposed to enter the temple when they have periods.

4. One has to wash his feet before entering a temple.

5. A temple is a place of worship and not a picnic spot.

 

Especially Point # 3 is strictly followed. As western females may not be aware, they might enter the temples.

These cannot be written on a notice board. So usually they do not allow westerners inside the temples.

 

And even among Indians, non hindus are not allwed to enter the temple, as there is no point in allowing people who do not have faith in hindu gods.

 

Tirupati( tirumala) is a commercial center where anything goes for money. The more money you pay, the sooner your darshan will be. Thats what I call commercialisation ( It exists in all temples).

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Guest guest]

"Tirupati( tirumala) is a commercial center where anything goes for money. The more money you pay, the sooner your darshan will be. Thats what I call commercialisation ( It exists in all temples)."

 

Tirupati is Vaikuntha on earth, regardless of the way people run things there, do not say something like that.

It is the most sacred place.

 

I am well aware of all the reasons you listed for not entering the temple and I do not enter the temple during that time of the month, or without taking bath, etc.

I am a devotee of Lord Balaji/Lord Krishna.

 

I am not a tourist. However, there's nothing anyone can do to prevent me from entering the temple if the God wills it, so I accept Tamilians/others not allowing me, as I am a humble beggar at Lord Hari's feet, who need only grace me with His love as much as He sees fit.

 

[Guest guest]

How do define "Hindu?"

 

Is it an Indian?- what about Hindus in Bali, Indonesia, Nepal, etc. Is it an Aryan or Dravidian? Or does it have to do with beleif in Hindu gods? Tell me what do you think, Sir, as you seem to have lot of confidence on the subject.

[Guest guest]

"Tirupati is Vaikuntha on earth, regardless of the way people run things there, do not say something like that.

It is the most sacred place."

 

Sorry if I have hurt any devotees feelings. I beg an apology.

Tirumala is a sacred spot. There is no question in that.

 

I just had concerns over the way people run "Business" there.

 

To be honest with you the impolite temple staff, the egoistic pujari's, and the devotees waiting in the que passing urine, and spitting...... well.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Any one who believes in the Vedas, respects the Hindu Shastras, believes in hindu gods is a Hindu.

 

Rajendra Chola had a very powerful Navy and conquered upto Cambodia and had a very good trade(including, Bali, Sumatra etc). Rajendra Chola was a hindu.

 

Hinduism does not have to do with Races( Aryan-Dravidian).

 

People in Nepal are Ghurkas, they are Hindus. Nepal is the only hindu kingdom. The King of Nepal is well received and honoured in the Hindu mutts and temples of India.

 

 

Its easy to identify a person of a different race in India and people over the years have the capacity to identify Indians.

Say for example if you go to a temple in Kanchi, the pujari can easily identify that you are a north indian / south indian, tamil/hindi etc. And a hindu,will not have any difficulty in getting used to the temples.

 

A westerner looks different from Indians, and even though he is well aware of the rituals, people generally assume that westerners are not aware of anything, and they may not allow a westerner eventhough he may practice hinduism.

 

Hindus believe in Self realisation, the laws of Karma, prays ishta devatas ( personal deities) at the same time realises, its all the same.

 

[ShegavichaRana]

You must listen to this story which brought tears to my eyes. After Shri Swamiji took samadhi, his name and fame spread everywhere. There was a old prostitute in a remote village in Andhra. Due to her living style, she got a terrible skin disease, resulting in a foul smell all over. People from the village shunned her and ordered her to leave the place. There was no cure to her disease. She was pained and did not know what to do and where to go in her old age. Someone told her about Shri Swamiji at Mantralaya. One fine day, she covered herself in a shawl and left the village and visited Mantralaya. She paid her obeisance to Shri Swamiji with great devotion and respect, however, she did not know how to pray. Her pure devotion moved Swamiji, who appeared in her dream and showed (in dream) some herbs near her cottage (in Mantralaya itself) and asked her to apply the paste of the same. She faithfully followed his instructions. Slowly her skin disease got completely cured, no foul smell emanated from her body and her skin glowed. The time came for her to return to her village, when she started to wonder, what could she offer to such great, revered saint! That night, Swamiji appeared in her dream and asked her to offer the shawl to him in which she had wrapped her foul body. She was stunned, however, next morning she met the priest of the temple and told him about her dream and the offering of the shawl. The priest was wild with rage and scolded her. She went back and decided to return to her village next day after the moring darshan of Swamiji. Next day, while was standing in the queue, waiting for darshan, the same priest came running and told her that Swamiji had appeared in his dream and told her to spread her shawl on Vrindavanam. The woman broke down with devotion. Promptly, the shawl was washed, dried and offered on the Vrindavanam fulfilling her desire to offer something to her benefactor, her sadguru.

Now tell me, who is at fault? it is the followers and not the founder who must be blamed for the degeneration of the true values. So long as you have pure devotion for Shri Swamiji, whether you touch the golden chariot or not, he will grace you with his blessings!!!

[ShegavichaRana]

--Tirupati( tirumala) is a commercial center where anything goes for money. The more money you pay, the sooner your darshan will be. Thats what I call commercialisation ( It exists in all temples).--

 

You are wrong. How do you think should they run Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanam, where crores of devotees gather every day? Keeping the huge temple, the surroundings clean, offering daily worship, providing salary to a huge no. of workers, making all arrangements for the devotees' stay, free food, all types of celebrations held frequently, keeping the serpentine long coridor for the devotees to move clean, making ornaments for the Lord? Just for free? Tirumala is a town in itself with several chaultries for the stay of devotees. Remember, if you are a true devotee, you do not need to pay a single paisa as there is always Sarvadarshana which is totally free and once you finish darshan, you get some Prasad too for free. Now where is commercialism here? If you want to provide Prasad to all your near and dear ones, how can TTD provide you with tens of Laddus for free? No devasthanam can do that. So these Laddus are sold, where is commercialism involved in this? In fact, you should feel happy that all the necessary arrangements are made so that the devotees can enjoy their stay. TTD charges money for those, who do not "sufficient time" for the Lord. This allegation that TTD is a commercial centre is not true, I feel. You are giving a wrong picture of our temples to foreigners, who are waiting to run down Hindu Gods.

 

[gokulkr]

You are right. I know that Guruji doesnt taught any caste discrimination. Actually guruji asked his followers to see God in all. but his "so called" madhva priests instead of following gurujis instructions, they behave secretarially.

 

Of course, actually when i was in mantralayam, i didnt paid much attention to these discriminations. i only concentrated on guruji & mediated on him. i prayed to him as long as i can.

 

of course, only after i reached home the "caste discrimination" incidents haunted my mind.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Sivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

[Guest guest]

Tirupati Balaji is very rich because everybody wants to help Him pay back the loan He took out from Kubera for His marriage to Alumelmanga. So much of money is always flowing in and out of the place, and this enables TTD to keep extremely beautiful and clean.

[Guest guest]

Tirupati was well marketed by NTR for attracting lots of people.

 

And tirupati is the Richest temple. Devotees offerings themselves are enough. They dont need to sell first class tickets, second class tickets etc.

 

Again I repeat again, I am not speaking about the god, I am just speaking of the administration and commercialisation.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

A couple points about this topic. The first is that in Mantralaya there are seperate eating halls for Brahmins and non-brahmins where free food is distributed. There are sign boards stating only Brahmins are allowed to eat in one hall and all non-brahmins should eat in the other hall. This practice is pretty universal in all Madhva mathas and temples. The Madhva tradition is highly influenced by brahmanism which is very unfortunate.

 

The present day Madhvas even believe that there are souls who are sattvik, rajasik and tamasik eternally. The sattvik souls (who happen to be themselves, i.e. Madhva brahmins) are elligible for liberation, whereas the tamasik souls will eternally reside in the material world with no chance for liberation. This odd belief is not accepted by any other school of Vaishnavism or Hinduism.

 

The universal opinion of Vedanta is that the soul is eternally pure, free from the influence of the three gunas. Only the soul's consciousness is polluted by the modes of nature and therefore there is bondage within the material world. By purification of the soul's consciousness through sadhana the soul can be resituated in his constitutional spiritual position and free from material bondage.

 

The second point is in regards to Tirupati temple. It is the best administered temple in India and Srila Prabhupada wanted our ISKCON society to learn proper management and administration from them.

 

The complaints about commercialism is unfounded. The Tirupati temple sells gigantic ladhus (about 5 inches in diameter) made with pure ghee for 10 rupees each! Show me one shop in India that will sell you such a laddu for this price. What is the alternative? To distribute hundreds of thousands of gigantic laddus every day to the visitors for free? Already they are taking a loss on the sale of laddus by selling it for 10 rupees, but it is made up through hundi collection and darshan tickets, etc.

 

Secondly, the TTD runs first class guest rooms (with thousands of rooms available) and charges only 100 rupees for a very large room accomodating 5 or 6 people. Again this is below the actually reasonable price for such a room.

 

Third, the TTD has recently broken all the encroached shops on the road surrounding the temple so that the deity processions can be held for the public without inconvenience. These shops were owned by the priests who do the seva in the temple. Their interest was in making money off the pilgrims even if it disturbed the temple seva (brahmotsava festival), the TTD's interest was ensuring the procession route could accomodate thousands of pilgrims. The issue went to court and the TTD got clearance to demolish all of the shops.

 

Fourth, the priests are not allowed to request donations, and if they are caught taking donations can be replaced from their hereditary service by the TTD administration. There are live video cameras in the garbha griha with monitors in the executive officers house so that he can watch the priests and make sure they do not steal money from the pilgrims. I have gone to his house several times and have seen the video system they use to keep out corruption. Compare this to other temples such as Jagannatha Puri where the Pandas will harass you and beat you till you give them money. Which do you prefer?

 

It is true that there is a 50 Rs. charge for "quick darshan" (which is sometimes actually longer than the free darshan), but anyone can get the early morning Suprabhatam VIP darshan for free if they will come wearing a wet gampsha and do anga-pradakshina (rolling) around the garba-griha. Those who do the anga-pradakshina actually get darshan before those who hold the Suprabhatam pass (because they are doing seva to the deity through their anga-pradakshina).

 

Thus in conclusion, if you don't want to give 50 Rs. to the temple for a quicker darshan, then either take the free darshan or do some service by performing anga-pradakshina at 3 AM. But the problem is this requires a little sacrifice - wake up early, take a cold bath in the temple tank, wear a wet cloth to the temple, and then spend an hour roling around the temple garbha-griha.

 

This exemption is there, anyone who comes early morning with a wet cloth (to do anga-pradakshina) will be allowed past the que without any special pass.

 

[Guest guest]

I heard there are tickets for 50, 100, 500, 1000 and 5000 rupees?

Correct me if I am wrong.

[gokulkr]

<--- The present day Madhvas even believe that there are souls who are sattvik, rajasik and tamasik eternally. The sattvik souls (who happen to be themselves, i.e. Madhva brahmins) are elligible for liberation, whereas the tamasik souls will eternally reside in the material world with no chance for liberation. This odd belief is not accepted by any other school of Vaishnavism or Hinduism. --->

 

Madhva accepts Ramanuja’s classification of the souls into Nitya or eternal (like Lakshmi), Mukta or liberated (the gods, men, Rishis, sages and fathers), and Baddha or bound ones. The third group consists of two classes: (i) those who are eligible for Moksha (Mukti-yogya) and (ii) those who are not so eligible. Of those who are not eligible for salvation, there are two classes again: (a) those who are bound to the cycle of Samsara forever (Nitya-samsarins) and (b) those whose destiny is hell, the region of blinding darkness (Tamo-yogya).

Some are pre-ordained for the final emancipation by their inherent aptitude. Some others are eternally destined either to wander in Samsara without end, or to go to the world of darkness. The Sattvika souls go to heaven, the Rajasa souls revolve in Samsara and the Tamasa souls fall into hell.

 

Thus in above we see that Madhvacharya had nowhere mentioned only brahmins are satvic souls. he had only classified the souls. i wonder how these madhva brahmins considered themselves as satvic-souls ? if a person discriminates other then he/she is not a satvic. so how can a secreatarial madhva brahmin can become a satvic-soul ? actually they become tamasic soul by doin discrimination.

it is God krishna is to decide whether a soul is satvic or not.

 

i think present day madhvas has corrupted the teachings of "Sri Sri Madhvacharya". eeeekkk i think "Dwaitham" has become extinct. I feel sorry for "Sri Sri Madhvacharya". /images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Shivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

[Guest guest]

When there is a basic flaw, it becomes extinct

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Of those who are not eligible for salvation, there are two classes again: (a) those who are bound to the cycle of Samsara forever (Nitya-samsarins) and (b) those whose destiny is hell, the region of blinding darkness (Tamo-yogya).

 

 

Just to clarify, even the Gaudiyas accept a class of jivas known as nitya-mukta (eternally liberated) and nitya-baddha (eternally bound in samsara), but this eternally bound is used in the context of it being untraceable - not literally eternal.

 

Logically, something that has no beginning can have an end, and this has been proven by Madhva with the following example. In front of you there is a table with no deepam (lamp) on it. How long has this deepam not been on the table? The answer is eternally, as there has never been a deepam on the table. Now if you bring a deepam onto the table the beginningless non-presence of the deepam on the table is ended. Thus that which has no beginning can have an end - i.e. the beginningless (nitya) bondage in samsara of the jiva can be ended by bhakti.

[Guest guest]

"Thus that which has no beginning can have an end - i.e. the beginningless (nitya) bondage in samsara of the jiva can be ended by bhakti."

[gokulkr]

Even in shuddhadvaita (pushti-marg) there is classification of souls.

 

Classification Of Souls

There are three kinds of souls: (i) The pure (Suddha) Jivas. The divine qualities (Aisvarya) are not obscured in these souls by ignorance. (ii) The worldly Jivas (Samsarin). These souls are caught in the net or clutches of Avidya or ignorance. They experience births and deaths on account of their connection with gross and subtle bodies. (iii) Mukta Jivas or liberated souls. These souls are freed from the bonds of Samsara through Vidya or Knowledge. When the soul attains the final emancipation, it recovers its suppressed qualities and becomes one with God or Brahman. The world appears as Brahman to one who has realised the Truth or Brahman.

There is another classification of souls, viz., Pushti souls, Maryada souls and Pravahika souls. All these are different from one another in their origin, nature and final end. They all issue from God with their differences.

The Pushti souls are the highest, as they issue from the Ananda-Kaya or the bliss-body of God. These souls are the Amsa (parts) of His body. God is the Amsi (the whole). These are the souls of grace. They have the divine seed in them which bears fruit in the end. They ultimately reach the goal through the grace of the Lord. They have communion and fellowship with Lord Krishna. They develop Bhakti through the grace of the Lord. Bhakti is the means and the end in itself.

The Maryada souls are generated from the Vak or the Word of God. They are governed by law, not by grace. They perform their ritualistic duties, at first with selfish interests. Later on, they develop Nishkama-Bhava (unselfish attitude) and do their ritualistic routine without any self-interest. This purifies their mind. They reach the Akshara, which is a kind of vestibule to the abode of God. Afterwards they attain the supreme abode of God.

The Pravahika souls issue from the mind of God. They are the Samsaric Jivas. They are souls neither of grace nor of law. They are in continuous motion (Pravaha).

 

Jai shri Vallabhacharya

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namah Shivaya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya

[harishkumar09]

#####The present day Madhvas even believe that there are souls who are sattvik, rajasik and tamasik eternally. The sattvik souls (who happen to be themselves, i.e. Madhva brahmins) are elligible for liberation, whereas the tamasik souls will eternally reside in the material world with no chance for liberation. This odd belief is not accepted by any other school of Vaishnavism or Hinduism.

 

The universal opinion of Vedanta is that the soul is eternally pure, free from the influence of the three gunas. Only the soul's consciousness is polluted by the modes of nature and therefore there is bondage within the material world. By purification of the soul's consciousness through sadhana the soul can be resituated in his constitutional spiritual position and free from material bondage. ######

 

 

It is not Madhwas believe or Madhwa himself had said anything like that.It is stated by Krishna himself in teh BG

 

"Those who ar esatvi go up , the rajasic stay in the middle and the tamasic go down"

 

"The mischievous amongs human beings I repeatedly castinto lower worlds so they can never attain me"

 

 

Madhwa simply states the above facts when he talks about the tamasic category of souls.

 

Plus Madhwa never said those who are born in Madhwa families are Maadhwas.His definition of Maadhwa was different.He says sattvic souls may be born anywhere due to "accident of birth" and we should try to recover them and take the knowledge to them.Thats why he laid great emphasis on proselysation and made it amajor foundation of religion.

 

But its a fact also Madhwas are the ones who are laziest and done least to spread their religion and chaitanya panth si today doing what Maadhwas should be doing.

 

Hence therefore they are the real Madhwas.As they have carried out what is unique to the religion.

 

[harishkumar09]

This is the case in all mutts.The difference between brahmins and non-brahmins is maintained by all mutts.I personally find this ridiculous.I find many america returned brahmins who had great fun with american prostitutes(and this should be the case with smartha and iyengar mutts as well) eat in brahmin demarcated areas and non-brahmins with godly qualities eat in separate NB quarters.

 

 

 

[harishkumar09]

Anyway only smartha and other denomination brahmins were discriminated against and not non-brahmins.I would say the madhwas are the least anti-brahmin of the three.There cannot be any doubts about it.In fact they themselves get discriminated against by the other two.

 

One reason could be that Madhwa had demolished other philosophies ferociously and its quite possible priests may have feared other brahmin castes must bear hatred towards dwaita saints and mutts and so being allowed inside may not be appropriate.

 

Plus one need not go to mantralaya and touch the brindavan to get his blessings.

[Guest guest]

I had food in Sringeri Mutt. They did not have this system.

But Udipi had this system.

 

Sringeri mutt is a Smartha mutt.

Udipi is a Vaishanva mutt.

 

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

It is not Madhwas believe or Madhwa himself had said anything like that.It is stated by Krishna himself in the BG

 

"Those who ar esatvi go up , the rajasic stay in the middle and the tamasic go down"

 

 

Without going into great detail I will offer this comment. The above verse simply states those influenced by the guna of sattva go to the svarga loka, those by rajas go to bhu loka and those influenced by tamas to lower realms. The fact that someone can fall from the bhu loka (which is attained due to rajasik tendencies) to the tamasik realms indicates these modes are not fixed, and this is confirmed by Lord Krishna Himself in the the Gita:

 

rajas tamas cabhibhuya

sattvam bhavati bharata

rajah sattvam tamas caiva

tamah sattvam rajas tatha

 

"Sometimes the mode of goodness becomes prominent, defeating the modes of passion and ignorance, O son of Bharata. Sometimes the mode of passion defeats goodness and ignorance, and at other times ignorance defeats goodness and passion. In this way there is always competition for supremacy."

 

It is not that the soul is eternally sattvik, or rajasik, or tamasik. According to the atma's connection with prakriti, through association one's nature develops. See texts 14.6-8, the word used is sangena, "by association". By association with the modes (gunas), i.e. the gunas are distinct from the atma, one conditions oneself to a future situation. It does not say the atma who is sattvika, but rather the atma who "associates with" the sattva guna. Later Krishna explains the three gunas to be products of prakriti, not the atma, which is pure spirit.

 

Further in the 14th chapter of the Gita Lord Krishna states:

 

idam jnanam upasritya

mama sadharmyam agatah

sarge ’pi nopajayante

pralaye na vyathanti ca

 

"By becoming fixed in this knowledge, one can attain to the transcendental nature (beyond the gunas) like My own. Thus established, one is not born at the time of creation or disturbed at the time of dissolution."

 

Attainment of divine knowledge of Lord Krishna frees one from the influence of the modes of nature and causes one to attain the transcendental nature of the Lord Himself. Anyone who will attain the divine knowledge of Lord Krishna will become free from these three gunas and material bondage.

 

The three modes are products of the prakriti, not the atma. When the atma comes in contact with the prakriti he is influenced by these three gunas:

 

sattvam rajas tama iti

gunah prakriti-sambhavah

nibadhnanti maha-baho

dehe dehinam avyayam

 

"Material nature consists of three modes—goodness, passion and ignorance. When the eternal living entity comes in contact with nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, he becomes conditioned by these modes."

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

And let us not forget Krishna's conclusion to 14th chapter:

 

mam ca yo ’vyabhicarena

bhakti-yogena sevate

sa gunan samatityaitan

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

 

"One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."