Caste discrimination at Mantralayam

[harishkumar09]

But everyone knows who is casteist.Its unfortunate Madhwa mutts make this discrimination.Even I ate in brahmin quarters but didnt like it as I didnt feel qualified.I haev many girlfriends , the result of living in urban india and now I knew there were better people eating in NB quarters.

[gokulkr]

Please i committed the stupid mistake by starting this thread.

 

I have embraced Dwaitham. Now Jagadguru Shri Madhvacharya & Shri Pujyaya Guru Raghavendraswamy are everything to me.

 

Many quotes in this thread hurts me. As a madhava, it is painful to me.

 

i know all people are good here. so i beg everyone to stop quoting against Dwaitham.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Jagadguru Madhvacharya

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Pujayaya Raghavendraya

[harishkumar09]

Did you check the case endings ? I believ they refer to the three kinds of souls and not the three gunas.anyway lets not fight over this.

[Guest guest]

 

Entering temples of Tamilnadu and other places.

 

1. One is not supposed to enter the temple without bath.

2. One is not supposed to enter the temple after eating meat.

3. Females are not supposed to enter the temple when they have periods.

4. One has to wash his feet before entering a temple.

5. A temple is a place of worship and not a picnic spot.

 

 

 

6. Men have to take off all upper garment before taking darshan. e.g. Guruvayur, Thrissur

[Guest guest]

 

Thus in above we see that Madhvacharya had nowhere mentioned only brahmins are satvic souls. he had only classified the souls. i wonder how these madhva brahmins considered themselves as satvic-souls ? if a person discriminates other then he/she is not a satvic. so how can a secreatarial madhva brahmin can become a satvic-soul ? actually they become tamasic soul by doin discrimination.

it is God krishna is to decide whether a soul is satvic or not.

 

 

 

I believe, according to Madhvas, one can get liberation only in a brahmin body.

[harishkumar09]

First of all you must realise that Madhwa appreciated ppl who criticised him rather than those who accepted him.He wanted ppl to think and question , rather than blindly accept tradition.Thats why he started a system of debate and discussions even if it leads to people finding otehr phiosophies better and convert ot that.

 

So you ahev done a good thing gokul.

[harishkumar09]

Thats the case with Shankarites.Adi Shankara has said one must be a male brahmin sanyasi to get salvation.

[Guest guest]

Madhvas are a minority amongst the bramhins and nobody gives a rats ass as to what they think. As far as visiting temples in Udupi, its always good to focus on the lord rather than what a madhva priest thinks. These are bramhins who practise as little VEDA as possible. Even some of their abhishekas have no vedic chants, as far as VAIDIKA bramhins are concerned, they are not even bramhins.

[abhaysk]

Some Quotes of the thread stater : gokulkr

 

* "Hereafter i will visit only Sri Ramanuja shrines & vishnu temples.I will not hereafter support dwaitham."

 

* "i dont like this kinda caste discrimination in "Mantralayam" & other "dwaita" mutts."

 

* "Hereafter i wont visit any madhwa mutts"

 

* "I have embraced Dwaitham. Now Jagadguru Shri Madhvacharya & Shri Pujyaya Guru Raghavendraswamy are everything to me."

 

* "Many quotes in this thread hurts me. As a madhava, it is painful to me."

 

* "i know all people are good here. so i beg everyone to stop quoting against Dwaitham."

 

Dear gokulkr :

 

I am confused at your postings, because once you say Dvaita is rediculous and in some other posts you say Dvaita is correct..????

 

It sounds how inconsistent are you with restpect to any philosophy you follow.

 

Coming to your query on dicrimintaion of Castes :

 

* First of all do you know how many Varnas are there and what are the rules for each Varna??.. And how should one Varna see other Varna's. ( i hope u know what Varna means )

 

* If you take Vedas ( Shrutis ) as basis for anything, then the same Vedas say to follow the histroical granthas like Mahabharata, Ramayana, Pancharatras, Puranas ( Satvika ), and Satvika part of the other Rajo and Tamasika purana ( as any verse of any purna should be in par with what Vedas say may it be Written By LORD NARAYANA himself, as HE himself mentioned in Sutras ).

 

* When Shrutis say to follow satvika purunas, then one should have even tried to read it before make any statements like DISCRIMINATION done by Brahmins over others.. Please not we never discriminate by person, we say one should follow his DHARMA ( as per his Varna )..

 

* For instance, Shree Narada Maharshi when he was born as Shurda in his previous Brahma Kalpa, he himself followed what was in his Varna.. though he was Knowledged about Lord and all tatvas.. and though he knew he was at the level 14.

 

Another instance is as shown by our Kanaka dasaru.. He respected what Shree Hari has given him though he knew he is at level 12.. Why do u think such big Gnanis folloed what GOD gave them their birth in that Varnas??

 

Are you guys more knowledged Shree Yama ( Kanakadas ), Shree Narada?? ( To the matter of fact Shree Kanaka Dasaru followed Madhva Sidhanta, I would say he is true Madhva follower )

 

* When GOD himself has shown in his Avatars as to how should Kshetriya, Vaiysa, Shudra respect Brahmana.. More oever He says His presence in Brahmana is "Vishesha" ( Special ).. And Brahmana Varna is above all Varna.. But please note JIVA also has VARNA, and here we are talking of Stool Sharira ( Physical Body Level ).. In fact Lord has shown in his Avtar Shree Rama how should Brahmana be respected. Please read Ramayana about his interactions with his GURU Shree Vishwamitra.. Though he is GURU to this universe and anything else, he prostrated to Shree Vishwamitra ( But here it wud not mean "Namaskara" to SOUL Shree Vishwamitra but to his Antrayami Rupa which is aginn Lord himself )..

 

If these are the things why and who are we to disobey rules present for any Varnas????

 

 

Some Quotes of the administrator : jndas

"Just to clarify, even the Gaudiyas accept a class of jivas known as nitya-mukta (eternally liberated) and nitya-baddha (eternally bound in samsara), but this eternally bound is used in the context of it being untraceable - not literally eternal.

 

Logically, something that has no beginning can have an end, and this has been proven by Madhva with the following example. In front of you there is a table with no deepam (lamp) on it. How long has this deepam not been on the table? The answer is eternally, as there has never been a deepam on the table. Now if you bring a deepam onto the table the beginningless non-presence of the deepam on the table is ended. Thus that which has no beginning can have an end - i.e. the beginningless (nitya) bondage in samsara of the jiva can be ended by bhakti."

 

Ahh there i see some flaw in giving this co-relation with Mukti and other states.

 

One shuould notice that JIVA is nithya means it has no distruction of JIVA as a whole and also would mean that its attributes are also not indestructable ( Though GOD can, HE dosent change is what he says )..

 

Now giving an example of "Non presence of Deepam on table from infinite time" cannot be co-related to the bondage.. Because Nithya is used with respect to Chetana and some kind of AChetans ( Like TIME, SPACE, VEDAS ).. Presence and Non Presence of Jada "DEEPAM" is not at all NITHYA.. so the analogy of Madhva still holds good.

 

Jiva is eternal and has bondage untill all its Prarabdha Karmas are washed away by Brahma Gnana ( Just not Bhakti, as it may be Mudha Bhakti ).. Jiva once attaining Brahma Gnana is still eternal in MUKTI.. where as for those of Rajo, Tamo jivas.. their eternal places are "nithya samasrins" ( ofcourse not on this earth ).. and "Tamasa" (Deep hell and no return)..

 

Rgds

Abhay.

[abhaysk]

"Madhvas are a minority amongst the bramhins and nobody gives a rats ass as to what they think. As far as visiting temples in Udupi, its always good to focus on the lord rather than what a madhva priest thinks. These are bramhins who practise as little VEDA as possible. Even some of their abhishekas have no vedic chants, as far as VAIDIKA bramhins are concerned, they are not even bramhins."

 

Some posters are so rude to accuse others, good job (sadhana) to be punishable in hell. What veda, upanishads do you know Mr/Mrs/Miss x????..

 

Do u know Shrutis are ANATHTA..????

 

You talk as if you are Poorna.. Please note you are limited.. First read about Madhva's tatvas and then show you anger.. You go by Karma's of Brahmins and not concept..

 

Please know the underlying concept we have and then also if you feel like accusing then by all means do so.. as your sadhana will be as such and punishable and some are meant for that.. ( rather some are by virtue as such )..

 

BTW, No one need to "give a rats ass as to what we think".. If GOD ( and all satvikas ) gives then we are more than happy.. And GOD praises more for Yethartha Gnanis.. ( meaning Correct Knowledged )..

 

Rgds

Abhay.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The discrimination is unfortunate, however Madhwa philoshopy considers that being a Vaishnava is many times important than being a Brahmin or upper caste. Orthodoxy creeps into any system.

 

It is a huge misunderstanding that Madhvacharya classified individuals as superior--inferior, however since Dvaitha is based on accepting difference as real between entities in unambiguous terms difference leads to types of souls, there is no relation between the present life of a Jiva and whether the Jiva is sattvic, rajasic or tamasic.

 

IN these days when even Brahmins are losing faith in the Vedas, what is the point in propagating a philosophy based on Vedas?

Madhva sampradaya has historically focused more on proselysation of Vedic scholars and less among the common masses.

 

-hari

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

Whenever a statement is made, please make sure that it is justified, else, please keep mum. It is good to know that you have vedic knowledge :-). Can you let me know during which abhisekha the Vedic hymns were not chanted & what are the supposed vedic hymns to be chanted ?

 

Assuming that you are a learned person, i would expect the answer for above questions. If you can't answer this, may be i have to conclude that you have born to a dumb couple :-).

 

 

[Guest guest]

To have asked me that question you are sure to have BEEN born to a dumb couple. When they perform abhisheka have you heard them chant any part of the samhita. why how many GANAPAATIS are there amongst madhvas.

 

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

The concern is raised by you, and i would seek your justification, before i proceed. I will answer your question only after your justification. I hope you have that rudimentary diginity to justify before asking me to do so :-).

 

If your next posting doesn't answer the above, it is not even worth an entertainment to proceed with the postings.

 

If you have meagre of potential/guts to make unwarranted statements, to the mailing list of http://www.dvaita.org & do it :-).

 

If you don't follow the above couple of suggestions, then it is left to this forum to decide your level of intelligence & might end up treating your statements as garbage.

 

 

Hare Sreenivasa.

 

[harishkumar09]

Even though I am a proud Madhva Brahmin , I must admit that my fellow caste members are one of the most pathetic proseltizers ever seen , especially when explaning things to common masses.

 

For almost 9 years after I started studying Madhva's philosophy , I was still not clear why God discriminates some souls as satvikka , rajasika and tamasika.I was surprised that even in the dvaita mailing list , one member asked this question.This mailing list admits people only with good knowledge , preferably scholars and therefore it comes as a shock even these people are not sure about the tripartite classification of souls.

 

In reality , the souls are eternal and the nature(svabhava/svarupa) of the souls are inseperable from the soul itself , just as sweetness and sugar are inseparable.

 

The satvikka category of souls by their very nature are God lovers , and have proper knowledge of God , though it is dormant and needs to be awakened.Their very nature is that of bliss.

 

The Rajasika souls by their very nature are ignorant of the nature of God and have neutral attitude towards God.They don't care about him , immersed as they are in worldy pleasures.Their nature is a combination of bliss and suffering.

 

The Tamasika category of the souls by their very intrinsic nature are haters of God , and also have delusion about Maha Vishnu.They think he is just a supernatural person who can be overcome by obtaining supernatural powers or through technological means.Their very nature is that of suffering.

 

Vishnu rewards the souls according to their intrinsic natures.

 

Salvation is defined as realsing ones bliss latent within oneself and naturally only the sattvika souls are capable of doing it.They alone are inclined to Sadhana and realise bliss latent within them.They are eventually transported to Vaikuntha.

 

Rajaskika souls keep going around the middle planes of existence.

 

Tamaskia souls are despatched to andham tamas , blinding darkness , where they realise ther intrinsic nature , one of suffering.

 

Tamasika souls prefer suffering to surrendering to Lord Vishnu.

 

Thus the souls despatched to andham tamas , also realise their own nature and the performance of the evil acts is the sadhana for them to attain their destination.

 

The Lord is ever impartial.

 

[harishkumar09]

This poor proselytizing and lack of capability to explain concepts means that many ppl believe that Madhwas are satvikka souls and others are rajasika or tamasika.

 

And only Madhwas are eligible for salvation.This is one reason why our philosphy has not spread well , and we have to thanks the Hare Krishnas for making Madhwa popular.

 

The above misunderstanding resulted in a big controversy in Karnataka when one Poornachandra Tejaswi , grandson of National Poet of Karnataka Kuvempu wanted the name of Madhwa removed from the Nada Geethe (State Anthem) as he had condemned dalits to eternal damnation !!!

 

The general impression is Madhwa brahmins are sattvika souls and dalits the lowest of the low are tamaskika souls.

 

Its nothing of that sort !!!

 

A tamasika soul may be born in a Madhwa brahmin household and a sattvika soul may be born in a dalit household.

 

The tripartite classification of souls is different from the caste system.

 

Its got nothing to do with the caste system.

[harishkumar09]

And even among the Rajasika souls , there is a further tripartite classification , as Satva-Rajasika , Rajo-Rajasika and Tamo-Rajasika.

 

The Satva-Rajasikas are the ones who believe in the scriptures , but are unable to pursue them due to lack of determination.Even when they perform Vedic rituals , they perform it incorrectly due to lack of determination.But due their belief in the scriptures they are rewarded with the lower heavens.

 

The Rajo-Rajasikas are most probably the ones who are caught in the secular humanistic and philanthropic activities and believe that world can be changed by philosphies such as democracy , communism and other such ideas.They are highly involved in the material plane and can be said to be very emotional ppl.They are caught in the earthly plane of life.

 

The Tamo-Rajasikas are the ones who are rewarded with the lower hells for their activities.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The reason why Brahmins and non-brahmins are having separate hall for food in Karnataka temples is not out of evil discriminatory ideas or ego, but due to thefollowing:

 

Most of the Brahmins are highly regulated in their habits especially when it comes to cleanliness like taking bath in morning and washing the legs before entering the temples, dont take meat, birds, insects, fishes etc etc, dont take alchohol and they are the ones who still follow the vedic rituals that is still persisting in the vedic country.

 

While on the other hands, not a high percentage of nonbrahmins exists in India who are pure vegetarians, and dont drink, and especially keep themselves clean. While this varies from educated class to the uneducated or economically poor class, but in brahmiins, even the most poor follow their traditions still in SOuth India atleast to the bestof my knowledge.

 

Everyone superficially look at everything and immediately brahmins, but fail to accept their faults and fail to correct on what they lack also.

 

Howmuch ever you may be a brahmin, still nobody other than the temple priests are allowed to touch the Deities and sacred idols and things in temples. There is no discrimination on this.

 

Its easy to pinpoing and find fault, but difficult to do a self analysis.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Even though I am a proud Madhva Brahmin , I must admit that my fellow caste members are one of the most pathetic proseltizers ever seen , especially when explaning things to common masses.

 

 

 

Its good that Madhvas are not proselytizers. They preach only to people who come to them with deep interest & committment. They dont preach every Tom, Dick & Harry on the road. Lord Krishna says <font color="red"> "adhyatma-vidya vidyanam" </font color> viz "Adyatma Vidya is the most scared of all Vidyas". Since its the most scared knowledge, it is taught to people who have the right qualification, interest and have some logical thinking to discriminate between whatz correct & wrong.

 

 

For almost 9 years after I started studying Madhva's philosophy , I was still not clear why God discriminates some souls as satvikka , rajasika and tamasika.

 

 

 

A Guru is required to understand the concepts. Just an internet study or self study wont help in understanding Tattvavada. One should have commitment, discipline, Yogyatha and add to that Good Samskaras. You will understand according to your yogyatha.

 

Why do you blame God? He does not discriminate. If he treats everyone equally, then he will be discriminating. If one treats everyone according to their yogyatha (analogy: Good person->respect him; a bad person-> don’t respect), then that is not discrimination. That is being IMPARTIAL.

 

Jivas are anadi (GOD DID NOT CREATE THE JIVAS) and their svabhava cannot be changed. Sattvika jiva cannot become Rajasic or Tamasica and Vice Versa. What GOD does is he (Abhivyakta )brings out the inherent quality (svabhava) in them.

 

Also God does not interfere in changing the svabhava of the Jiva i.e God can change the svabhava of the Jiva, but he does not do so cause changing the svabhava of the Jiva is like destroying the identity of the Jiva .

 

If A is a Rajasica Jiva, if he tries to make it a Sattviva, then A will not exist at all, because the very identity of the Jiva is “I” which is rajasika.

 

Not everyone can get Moksha. Only a Sattvica Jiva gets Moksha and that too by the Grace of God.

 

I suggest you go to a learned Dvaita scholar to get to know the concepts clearly. Just going through a mailing list or a discussion forum will not be of much help.

 

 

And only Madhwas are eligible for salvation.This is one reason why our philosphy has not spread well , and we have to thanks the Hare Krishnas for making Madhwa popular.

 

 

Again, you are wrong. All Madhwas ( I assume you mean, born in a madhwa family) are not eligible for salvation. Only the sattvika Jiva, who has yathartha Jnana (correct knowledge) & Gods Grace will attain Salvation be it a sudra, vaishaya , kshatriya or brahmana.

 

<font color="red"> We have to thank Hare Krishnas for making Madhva Poplular: </font color> <font color="black"> Yeah, by speading wrong knowledge (at least to some extent wrong) and preaching things that a different from what Madhva said. </font color> /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[harishkumar09]

I find Madhwas to be a peculiar kind of people.They themselves have done nothing to preach his philosophy.But when somebody tries to do that they nitpik on them over absolutey silly things and and crate a furore.All this when Madhva himself laid a lot of emphasis on spreading the light of knowledge in the society.

 

For example , a many years aga a famous film star in India by name Rajinikanth , made a film on the great dvaita scholar Sri Raghavendra Swami and made him very popular amongst the masses.Much of the traffic to Mantralaya is due to him than due to anybody else.He was resurrected from obscurity and his greatness was imprinted on the social consciousness of the south indians.

 

Yet orthodox madhwas picked up a quarrel with him over the depiction of Sri Raghavendra's wife in the movie which was said to be inaccurate , while they continued to enjoy the benefits of the pilgrim traffic.

 

Similarly now Prabhupada has become the target for this clowns.They are angry with him for absolutely silly reasons.

 

1.He did not say correctly that it was not Arjuna who was the first to see the World-Vision but rather he was first among his class.

2.He wrongly says that moon is a star..etc

 

but they seem to have let go of more fundamental problems like the HKs unwilling to explicitly accept the three-fold classification of souls and eternal damnation .HKs have not rejected them but dont seem to flaunt them either when these are important points of M's philosophy.

[harishkumar09]

The Larger Question

 

In effect there is a larger question that remains unanswered.

 

Is a philosophy only for the philsosophers ? Should not a philosophy benefit the masses ?

 

Krishna preached the BG for all mankind.Mankind was to benefit from it.Not just the sattvic souls who are guaranteed liberation.That Krishna favours human welfare over above just the salvation of the sattvic souls can be realised from a number of verses.

 

"Though shall wage a terrible war and encourage men to undertake all kinds of human works"

 

"The intelligent should perform nishkama kama , but not expect the masses to do the same"

 

"Even the sinfulest of men can attain to me by following this path"

 

Thus mankind was to benefit from this knowledge.

 

 

Now clearly Madhwa meant his philosophy to be made available to all mankind to help recover the sattvic souls born elsewhere by "accident of birth".Hence while interpreting the Isha Upanishad he declares "To darkness they go who are ignorant , to even greater darkness they go who are addicted to knowledge alone (without socially useful proselytizing)"

 

 

Now the divine truth may not be available in all its perfection.Wich is better ? Should a society be perpetually cast into ignorance rather than be shown half-knowledge ? That it is better to live in ignorance and darkness rather than living in half-light ? Should we prefer darkness to little light ?

 

And we must learn to make the difference between ignorance and falsehood.Ignorance is the lack of knowldege due to jiva-yogyatha.Falsehood is deliberate calumny spread by the demons to mislead mankind.Ramanuja could not comprehend the truth in all its glory , as he had his limitations.But is not better that a society has an advantage of his philosophy rather than live in the ignorance of advaita ? And is not the dim-light of advaita better than the darkness of buddhism ? Are we to say truth should be present in all its glory or not at all ? Even a sattvic soul will benefit from ramanujas philosophy , compared to advaita.Given the proper direction it will figure out the truth by itself.

 

Allied powers are not angels yet common sense demanded that we support them over and above an asuric and evil hitler as democracy is better than the nazi dictatorship.Are we going to denounce everyone and uphold only the ideal birth-based varnshrama of Madhwa , which is well-nigh impossible to establish.

 

We must realise that since mankind is impure ,divine truth cannot manifest in all its full glory.But we have to accept this and support this partial manifestation of divinity and condemn asuric philosophies and attitudes.

 

Of course madhwas are never bothered about this world and are concerned only about individual salvation.They do not know that their philosophy can benefit the world and lead to the creation of a divine society full of joy and bliss , harmony reigning supreme and naure and mankind in perfect balance , the male and female in perfect relationship.

 

Their main concern is moksha.You dont see a single article or paper dealing with "dvaita economics" , "dvaita management" , "dvaita education" whereas you can always find plenty of articles like "advaita & economics" , "advaita & management" , "advaita & education" .Net result is that advaitins have successfully presented their philosophy as worldy and world benefitting while the madhwas appear as a bunch of other-worldly ascetics.So more and more peopel convert to advaita endangering their own salvation and weaking the nation.That advaita has weakened the nation is unknown to madhwas as they are not concerned about the nation at all , only their perosnal mukthi.

 

The world is real and we must also be concerned about this world.Madhwa himself says that service to the society is the tax we msut pay to enter the kingdom of god.And the highest service is to establish true knowledge in society.This act performed as an offering to God can also guarantee individual salvation.Thus individual salvation does not clash with world welfare , atleast in all forms of vaishnavism.

 

Now clearly given the highly terse nature of madhwas philosophy and the potential for misunderstanding , its obvious some easy to understand and lighter version of the philosophy is to be made available for the welfare of the masses.Given the situation where must of us have to slog to eke out a living andno time for scriptural study in a rigorous fashion such a need assumes a high degree of importance.

 

(A good example of the potential for misunderstanding is the belief all madhwas will get mukthi and all lower caste ppl are destined for eternal damnation.I ahve seen most people who make a cursory reading of M's philosophy to have come to such conclusion and have even seen madhwas who believe so)

 

It was clearly keeping in mind such a need Chaitanya advented himself on this plane to preach a simpler version of M's philosophy.His system is most suitable for the hard-working masses.And given that we have so many fraudulent brahmins and lowe caste ppls with divine nature , his system of recruiting brahmins from all classes is justified.And according to the needs of the situation also possibly prevented conversions to Islam.

 

The activities of HKs dont go against the spirit of madhwas philosophy.Madhwa gave importance to qualification and not just birth.He held a devoted chandala to be superior to a worldly minded brahmin.He gives the example of how Jabala was accepted as a brahmin as he had a pure nature.And since he also stood for the welfare of the socity , we can say chaitanya only implemented what madhwa gave as a blueprint.

[harishkumar09]

Now Krishna says "na buddhi bedham..." so don't disturb the minds of the masses with too much of philosophy.Clearly M's system cannot be preached to the masses due to potential for misunderstanding.So a lighter version of the philosophy such as chaitanya's becomes necessary.

 

It therefore becomes our bounden duty to support it.

 

Rather than leave the society in total darkness.

 

If HKs were to modify their philosophy to incorporate everything that madhwa said then nobody will take it and we are back to square one.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

(A good example of the potential for misunderstanding is the belief all madhwas will get mukthi and all lower caste ppl are destined for eternal damnation.I ahve seen most people who make a cursory reading of M's philosophy to have come to such conclusion and have even seen madhwas who believe so)

 

 

 

EVEN AFTER I TOLD YOU THAT ONLY SATTVICA JIVAS GET MUKTI WITH RIGHT KNOWLEDGE & GODS GRACE . You keep repeating the same thing!!!!

 

Right Knowledge is Tatvavada. As Saint vadiraja puts

 

<font color="red"> "ante siddhastu siddhAnto madhvasyAgama eva hi" </font color>

 

<font color="blue"> The only correct school is that of Achârya Madhva. </font color>

 

One will get mukti by following Acharya Madhva's philosophy, be it a sudra, Vishya, Kshatriya or Brahmana.

 

 

Since you are a Madhva Brahmin /images/graemlins/wink.gif, people like you say that only Madhvas get Mukti and not lower Class people. i.e people with half knowledge or rather people who have grossly misunderstood Madhva philosophy say so.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

ISKCON has some similarity with Dvaita but there are lots of differences in the concepts of Tatvavada and gaudiya philosophy. Hence ISKCON cannot claim that they have the approval of MADHVA.

 

"TATVAVADA advocates practice of correct understanding (of knowledge) and criticism of false understanding "

 

The above quote is approved by Madhva and the eternal, apourusheya Vedas SAY SO. VEDAS ARE ETERNAL TRUTH. FOLLOWERS OF MADHVA FOLLOW WHAT VEDAS SAY.

 

Refer to the following quotes from the Ishavasya Upanishads.

 

vidyam cavidyam ca yastadvedobhayam saha |

avidyaya mrtyum tirtva vidyaya'mrtamasnute 11

 

One who knows the correct knowledge, and also criticizes false knowledge, for him, by criticism of false knowledge (which causes suffering), he overcomes suffering, and by practice of correct knowledge (which causes enjoyment), he obtains mukti.

 

All the great Madhva Yatis like Padmanabha Thirtha, Jayathirtha , Vyasaraja Thirtha, Sripadaraja Thirtha, Raghavendra Thirtha , Vidyamanya Thirtha, the present Vishwesha Thirtha (Pejawar Mutt) etc are of the same opinion as state above.

 

Tatvavadis do not have any personal grudges against ISKCON or against any person, but they denounce the concepts of ISKCON as Wrong understanding will not lead to liberation.

 

Harish!!! INSTEAD OF TALKING NONSENSE, BE GRATEFUL TO THEM AS THEY ARE HELPING YOU SEE WHAT IS CORRECT AND WHAT IS WRONG.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Of course madhwas are never bothered about this world and are concerned only about individual salvation.They do not know that their philosophy can benefit the world and lead to the creation of a divine society full of joy and bliss, harmony reigning supreme and naure and mankind in perfect balance , the male and female in perfect relationship.

 

 

In other words, you are saying the Madhwas do not have unrealistic goals like you have, which actually is in their favor.

 

These ideas of divine societies, perfect harmony, etc are simply not possible given the psyche of mankind. Why go global? Let us take some of the religious communities of Indian origin. If you take a peek into any such group you will find that your ideals are not real even in such small groups. If they are not being acheived in a group of 1000 people, what makes you think that it is possible for 6 billion? The fact is, there are various kinds of people in this world and the majority of them will never be interested in Spirituality. Case closed.

 

If you will accept this, you will realize that individual attainment is the most plausible option you have. Not that you do not have to preach, but if you are targetting global harmony, then you are way off.

 

Cheers