i don't understand...

[Guest guest]

When the GBC allows a devotee to take up the service of initiating, it does not thereby endorse him as an uttama adhikäri or "pure devotee" or certify his having achieved any specific state of realization. Rather, the GBC indicates that it has no objection to his initiating disciples within ISKCON. (gbc resolutions 2004)

 

...anyone can explain this to me? they allow but they do not take the responsability to say if he's an uttama adhikari or not. So, on wich basis they are allowing?......

 

[theist]

Like a backhanded clause just in case the guy screws up, or one of his disciples. They can then claim "hey we never said he was God-realized. don't blame us."

 

They are also admiting they lack the spiritual vision to say with certainty one way or the other. That may cause some to ask,"Well if you can't say for sure then why don't you just keep quiet and direct newbies to the Lord in the heart, and stay out of it completely?"

 

Don't know?, then don't talk.

[gHari]

Has anything to say about why this couple should not bound in holy matrimony, let them speak now or forever hold their peace.

 

Reverend Harry Krishna

 

[Guest guest]

up

[Kulapavana]

actually in our tradition the matter is entirely between the disciple and guru. if a disciple wants to accept a person as his/her spiritual master why should anybody interfere? also, the responsibility is on the disciple to make sure his/her guru is qualified. dont blame others for your error in judgement. GBC is just trying to set some MINIMAL standards for gurus in their temples.

[Guest guest]

the minimal standard is that a guru is uttama adhikari.

 

if i have to choose a guru using sastra and sadhu, the sadhus (=gbc) have to be sure that the guru is fit before to give their approvation... otherwise how can i decide?

 

if they are not sure their advice is useless

[Kulapavana]

"the minimal standard is that a guru is uttama adhikari"

 

where did you get this idea? in the Vaishnava tradition there are all kinds of spiritual masters. a disciple should see their guru as uttama adhikari, but that is not necessarily an objective opinion. in our tradition a guru is one who properly represents our disciplic succession.

[krsna]

 

 

1ST Jewel

GURU-TATTVA: The Guru Principle

One must accept a genuine guru in the proper disciplic line.

1. 1

tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit panim srotriyam brahma-nistham

One who wants scientific knowledge about the Supreme Truth must approach a bona fide guru and offer him everything required for sacrifice. The guru must be fixed in the truth, having heard it from a genuine source. (Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12)

 

1. 2

acarayavan puruso veda

Only one who has a guru can know the truth. (Chandogya Upanisad 6.18.2)

 

1. 3

uttisthata jasrata prapya varan nibodhata

ksurasya dhara nisita duratyaya

durgam pathas tat kavayo vadanti

Awake, arise: Having obtained the human form of life, you must not sleep in the darkness of ignorance. Awaken knowledge of your real self by associating with great souls and obtaining their mercy. This material creation is as sharp as a razor's edge, for it is the cause of many miseries. It is impossible to cross over without transcendental knowledge. Therefore one must take shelter of the great learned transcendentalists who forever sing the praises of that Supreme Person who is the destroyer of birth and death. (Katha Upanisad 1.3.14)

 

1. 4

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy artham

prakasante mahatmanm

To those great souls who serve both guru and Krsna with exclusive devotion, the import of the Vedas is fully revealed. (Setasvatara Upanisad 6.23)

 

1. 5

nayam atma pravacanena labhyo

na medhaya na bahuna srutena

yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas

tasyaisa atma vivrute tanum svam

The Supreme Self can never be known by argument, reasoning, intelligence, or scholarship. The finite can never know the infinite. By His own sweet will, however, the Infinite may reveal Himself to the finite in His personal divine form. Those who wish to know the infinite must therefore submit to him through surrender.

(Katha Upanisad 1.2.23)

 

1. 6

janana-maranadi-samsaranala-santapto dipta-sira jala-rasim iva

upahara-panbm sotriyam brahma-nistham gurum upasrtya tam anusarati

Just as a person whose head is on fire runs to water, one who burns from the flames of birth death, old age, and disease in the holocaust of material existence must run to a genuine guru for relief. Such a guru must be fixed in the Absolute Truth and well-versed in the scriptures. One should approach him with all that is needed for for sacrifice and submit to him as a disciple, ready to carry out his every instruction. (Vedanta-Sara 11)

 

1. 7

jiva nitya krsna-dasa, taha bhuli' gela

ei dose mayat ara galaya bandhila

Because the soul has forgotten that he is the eternal servant of Krsna, the illusory energy (maya ) has chained him by the neck. (Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.24)

 

1. 8

krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahir-mukha

ataeva maya ta're deya samsarai dumha

Because of forgetting Krsna, the soul has become averse to the loving service of the Lord since time immemorial. Thus the illusory energy gives him innumerable miseries in the material world. (Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.117)

 

1. 9

krsna-bahir-mukha haiya bhoga va-cha kare

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

pisaci paile yena mati-chhanna haya

maya-grasta jivera haya se bhava udaya

"ami nitya krsna-dasa" - ei katha bhule

mayara naphara haiya cira -dina bule

kabhu raja, kabhu praja, kabhu vipra, sudra

kabhu sukhi, kabhu dumkhi, kabhu kita, ksudra

kabhu svarge, kabhu martye, narake va kabhu

kabhu deva, kabhu daitya kabhu dasa prabhu

Being averse to the loving service of the Supreme Lord, the living entity tries to satisfy his lusty desries for sense gratification, and the illusory energy clasps him tightly within her embrace. The living entity, thus captured by the illusory energy, becomes just like a madman under a witch's spell. "I am the eternal servant of Krsna" - forgetting this, the soul becomes the slave of Maya and forever wanders through a succession of lives. Sometimes he is a king and sometimes a subject. Now he is a brahmana, now a sudra, now an insignificant ant. Sometimes happy, sometimes sad, now he goes to heaven, now to hell. Sometimes he is a god and sometimes a devil, now a servant, now a lord. (Prema-Vivarta )

 

1. 10

(ei rupa) brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija

tate krsna bhaje kare gurura sevana

mayajala chute paya sri krsna carana

Wandering throughout the universe in this way, the living entity who is fortunate meets a bona fide spiritual master by the mercy of Sri Krsna. And by the mercy of the spiritual master, he receives the seed of the creeper of transcendental loving service to the Lord. By worshipping Krsna and rendering service to the spiritual master, one is liberated from the illusory world of maya, and attains the lotus feet of the Lord. (Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 19.151, 22.25)

 

1. 11

mukam karoti vacalam

pangum langhayate girim

yat krpa tam aham vande

paramananda madhavam

I offer my respectful obeisances unto Madhava, who is the personification of transcendental bliss. By His mercy, a blind man can see the stars in the sky, a lame man can cross mountains, and a dumb man can speak eloquent words of poetry.

(Bhavartha. Dipika , Mangala Stotram 1)

 

1. 12

caitanya lilamrta pura, krsna lila sukarpura, duhe mile haya sumadhurya

sadhu-guru-prasade, taha yei asvade, sei jane madhurya pracurya

The pastimes of Sri Caitanya are the abode of nectarine love of Godhead and are just like thick condensed milk. The pastimes of Sri Krsna are just like camphor. When these are combined together, they are very sweet. By the mercy of the Gaudiya Vaisnava guru who is a true saint, one can taste that sweetness unlimitedly. (Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 25.277)

 

A qualified guru and disciple are hard to find.

 

1. 13

sravanayapi bahubhir yo na labhyam

srnvanto 'pi bahavo na vidyum

ascaryo 'sya vakta kusalo 'sya labhda

ascaryo jnata kusalanusistam

Many cannot even hear about the soul, and even after hearing about the soul, many cannot understand it; this is because it is hard to find a guru who is a genuine seer of the truth. Such a qualified guru is a great soul and is very rare. At the same time, realization of the truth can be had only by those disciples who carefully follow the qualified guru's teachings and become expert in the science of God. Such disciples are also very rare. Thus it is that only a few ever come to know the soul in truth.

(Katha Upanisad 1.2.7.)

 

A genuine guru knows krsna-tattva, the truth about Krsna. He is surrendered to Krsna, and is well-versed in all the Vedic literatures.

 

1. 14

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasum sreyam uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam

One who is searching for the Ultimate Truth must surrender unto a spiritual master, a guru. A guru knows the inner meaning of the Vedas, is fixed in the Absolute Truth (Krsna) and is expert in the sastra, the revealed scriptures.

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.3.21)

 

1. 15

krpa-sindhum su-sampurnam

sarva-sattvopakarakam

nisprham sarvatam siddham

sarva-vidya-visaradam

sarva-samsaya-samchetta

'nalaso gurur amrtah

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa gives the following definition of a guru: One who is an ocean of mercy, who is fulfilled in all respects, who is possessed of all good qualities, who always works for the benefit of all souls, who is free from lust, who is perfect in all respects, who is well-versed in the scriptures and who knows the science of Krsna, who can remove all the doubts of his disciples, and who is always alert in the service of Krsna is to be known as a guru. (Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa 1.45,46 quoted from Visnu-smrti vacana )

 

A guru is a goswami, master of the senses.

 

1. 16

vaco vegam manasam krodha vegam

jihva vegam udaropastha vegam

etan vega yo visaheta dhiram

sarva apimam prthivim sa sisyat

A guru is one who can control the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger, and the urges of the tongue, belly, and genitals. Such a guru is a goswami, a master of his senses and is qualified to make disciples all over the world. (Upadesamrta, 1)

 

1. 17

sat-karma nipuno vipro

mantra-tantra-visaradam

avaisnavo guru na syad

vaisnavam svapaco gurum

A brahmana may be expert in mantra, ritual, and the six brahminical kinds of work - performing and teaching sacrificed, studying and teaching scripture, giving and receiving charity - but if he is not a Vaisnava, he cannot be a guru. On the other hand, A Vaisnava may become a guru , even if he is born in a family of untouchable outcastes.

(Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, Padma Vacana )

 

A pure devotee is the guru of all the castes and social orders (varnas and asramas )

 

1. 18

vipra ksatriya vaisas ca

guravam sudra janmanam

sudras ca guravas tesam

trayanam bhagavat-priyam

A brahmana, ksatriya, or vaisya are usually the gurus for those born as sudras. A Vaisnava, however, because he is dear to the Supreme Lord, is the guru of these higher castes, even if born a sudra. (Padma Purana )

 

1. 19

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya

Whether a person is a brahmana, a sannyasi, or a sudra, if he is knows the science of Krsna, he is to be accepted as guru. (Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 8.127)

 

1. 20

kiba varni, kiba srami, kiba varnasrama hina

krsna tattva yei, sei acarya pravina

asala katha chadi' bha ivarne ye kare aara

asad-guru kari' ta 're vinasta purvapara

Whatever caste one may belong to - including sudras and outcastes - if he is expert in the science of Krsna, he is to be accepted as an acarya. One who ignores this principle, and recognizes a guru only on the basis of social position, will accept a bogus guru as his master and thus be ruined. (Prema-Vivarta )

 

A real guru is an acarya of sambandha-jnana,

knowledge of one's relationship with the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna.

 

1. 21

vairagya-yug bhakti-rasam prayatnair

apayayam mam anabhipsum andham

krpambudhhir yam para-dumkha-dukhi

sanatanam tam prabhum asrayami

I surrender unto Sri Sanatana Goswami, the acarya of sambandha-jnana. He is an ocean of mercy and is always unhappy to see the sufferings of others. Although I was blind, in the darkness of ignorance, he gave me the light of transcendental knowledge. He taught me the real meaning of detachment and made me drink the highest nectarine rasa of divine love. (Vilapa -kusuma-jali, 6 )

 

Who is an acarya?

 

1. 22

upaniya tu yam ssyam

vedam adhyapayed dvijam

sankalpam sa-rahasyam ca

tam acaryam pracaksate

An acarya is one who not only confers the sacred thread upon his disciples, but trains them in sacrifice and teaches them the esoteric meanings of the Vedic scriptures, including the Upanisads. According to saintly authorities, such a spiritual master is an acarya. (Manu Samhita 2.140)

 

1. 23

acinoti yam sastrartham

acare sthapayaty api

svayam acarate yasma

acaryas tena kirtitam

An acarya is one who fully understands the conclusions of the revealed scriptures. His own behavior reflects his deep realization, and thus he is a living example of divine precept. He is therefore known as an acarya, ore one who teaches the meaning of the scriptures both by word and deed. (Vayu Purana )

 

1. 24

yad yad acarati sresthas

tat tad evetaro janam

sa yat pramanam kurute

lokas tad anuvartate

Whatever acts a great man performs, common men follow. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, the whole world pursues. (Bhagavad-gita 3.21)

 

1. 25

apane acare keha na kare pracara

pracara karena keha, na karena acara

acara pracara namera karaha dui karya

tumi sarva-guru tumi jagatera arya

Some practice, but do not preach; others preach but do not practice. One who is perfect, however, in both preaching and practice is the guru of the entire universe. You [Haridasa thakura] are a real jagad-guru, for you practice what you preach. (Caitanya Caritamrta Antya 4.102,103)

 

1. 26

apani acari' bhakti sikhamu sabare

I [sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu] will teach bhakti to everyone by practicing it myself. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 3.20)

 

1. 27

apani na kaile dharma sikhana na yaya

If I do not do this Myself, then the principles of religion will not be taught.

(Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 3.21)

 

The "Inconceivable Oneness and Difference"

(acintya bhedabheda-tattva ) of guru, Vaisnava, and Krsna:

 

1. 28

acaryam mam vijaniyam

navamanyeta karhicit

na martya buddhyasuyeta

sarva-deva mayo gurum

[Krsna told Uddhava] "Know the acarya as My Self. I am the acarya . Never envy the acarya; never blaspheme him or consider him to be an ordinary man. Because the acarya channels the infinite, He is greater than the sum total of all the finite. Thus, he is more important than all the gods. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.17.27)

 

1. 29

vande gurun isa-bhaktan

isam isavatarakan

tat-prakasams ca tac chaktim

krsna caitanya sanjnakam

I worship the Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya, who appears in six features as: instructing and initiating gurus ; the Lord's devotees beginning with Srivasa hakura; His avataras such as Advaita Acarya; His prakasa, or full expansion (Nityananda Prabhu) and his sakti, or divine energy, (Gadadhara Pandita). (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.1)

 

1. 30

krsna, guru-dvaya, bhakta, avatara, prakasa

sakti - ei chaya rupe karena vilasa

The Supreme Lord appears in six features: 1) Sri Krsna; 2) the two kinds of gurus (diksa and siksa-guru: initiating and instructing gurus ); 3) bhaktas , devotees; 4) avataras, .different incarnations of Godhead; 5) prakasa, complete expansions or manifestations of His own Self; 6) sakti, His divine energy. In these six features the Supreme Lord enjoys his transcendental pastimes. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.32)

 

1. 31

yadyapi amara guru - caitanyera dasa

tathapi janiye ai tanhaa prakasa

Although I know my guru is a servitor of Sri Caitanya, I know Him also as a full manifestation (prakasa ) of Godhead Himself. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.44)

 

The two kinds of instructing gurus: caitya guru

(the guru in the heart) and mahanta guru (the personal guru).

 

1. 32

guru-krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane

guru-rupe krsna krpa karena bhakta-gane

According to the evidence of sastra the guru is nondifferent from Krsna, because it is through the guru that Krsna bestows mercy upon His devotees.

(Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.45)

 

1. 33

siksa guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa

antaryami, bhakta-srestha - ei dui rupa

One should know the instructing guru (siksa guru ) to be Krsna Himself. As guru, Krsna has two forms: the Supersoul and the best of devotees.

(Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.47)

 

1. 34

jive saksat nahi, tate guru caittya-rupe

siksa-guru haya krsna mahanta-svarupe

Since one cannot directly see the Supersoul, Krsna appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a siksa-guru is none other than Krsna Himself.

 

1. 35

naivopayanty apacitim kavayas tavesa

brahmayusapi krtam rddha mudam smarantam

yo'ntar bahis tanu-bhrtam asubham vidhunvann

acarya-caittya vapusa sva-gatim vyanakti

Uddhava said to Sri Krsna: "O my Lord! Transcendental poets and experts in spiritual science could not fully express their indebtedness to You, even if they were endowed with the lifetime of Brahma, for You appear in two features - externally as the acarya and internally as the Supersoul - to deliver the embodied living beings by revealing to them your devotional service and teaching them how to approach you on the path of divine love. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.29.6)

 

By the mercy of Krsna, one obtains the mercy of guru.

 

1. 36

krsna yadi krpa karena kona bhagyavane

guru antaryami-rupe sikhaya apane

When a fortunate soul receives Krsna's mercy, the Lord personally instructs that person as the Supersoul within and as the guru from without. (Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.47)

 

Sri Guru gives systematic and scientific knowledge about the highest spiritual reality: Sri Vrndavana dhama. Gaudiya Vaisnavas,therefore, recognize Sri Guru as being nondifferent from Sripad Rupa Goswami.

 

1. 37

ajnana timirandhasya

jnana-jana salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena

tasmai sri guruve namam

I was born in the darkness of ignorance, but my gurudeva healed my blindness with the salve of divine knowledge. I offer my humble obeisances unto him.

(Prema-bhakti-candrika - Narottama dasa thakura)

 

1. 38

sri caitanya mano 'bhistam

sthapitam yena bhutale

svayam rupam kada mahyam

dadati sva-padantikam

Srila Rupa Goswami has carried out the heart's desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by establishing the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world. When will he give me shelter at his lotus feet? (Prema-bhakti-candrika - Narottama dasa thakura)

 

1. 39

sri guru carana padma, kevala bhakati sadma,

vandon mu-i savadhana mate

yanhara prasade bhai, e bhava tariya yai,

krsna-prapti haya yanha ha'te

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete kariya aikya,

ara na kariha mane asa

sri-guru carane rati, ei se uttama gati,

ye prasade pure sarva asa

caksu dana dila yei, janme janme prabhu sei,

divya-jnana hrde prakasita

prema-bhakti yanja haite, avidya vinasa yate,

vede gaya yanhara carita

The holy feet of Sri Guru are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service, for they are the abode of pure bhakti. I worship his lotus feet with great care and attention. By his mercy, one can cross over the ocean of material existence and attain the mercy of Krsna.

Brothers: Make the words from his lotus mouth your heart's only treasure. Don't wish for anything more than this. Attachment to his lotus feet is the highest goal of life. By his mercy, all hopes are fulfilled. He has opened my eyes and filled my heart with transcendental knowledge. He is my lord, birth after birth. From him divine love emanates; by him, ignorance is destroyed. The Vedas sing his glories. (Prema-bhakti-candrika - Narottama dasa hakura)

 

Sri Guru is krsna-sakti, the divine energy of Krsna,

and is known as mukunda-prestha: most dear to the Lord.

 

1. 40

na dharmam nadharamam sruti-gana niruktam kila kuru

vraje radha-krsna-pracura-paricaryam iha tanu

saci-sunum nandisvara-pati-statve guru-varam

mukunda-presthatve smara param ajasram nanu manam

O mind! Shun all connection with Vedic piety and impiety. Always serve Sri Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana with all your heart, and know that Sri Caitanya, the son of Saci, is Sri Krsna, the son of Nanda. And always remember that gurudeva is mukunda-prestha, the dearmost servant of Sri Krsna. [NOTE: Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, in his purport to Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.46, translates the Anubhbhasya commentary of his gurudeva, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati hakura as follows: comments of Srila Bhaktivinoda hakura as follows: " As mentioned previously, a disciple should always respect the spiritual master as a manifestation of Krsna, but at the same time one should always remember that a spiritual master is never authorized to imitate the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. False spiritual masters pose themselves as identical with Sri Krsna in every respect to exploit the sentiments of their followers, but such impersonalists can only mislead their disciples, for their ultimate aim is to become one with the Lord. This is against the principles of the devotional cult.

The real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which establishes everything as simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead. Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami confirms that this is the real position of a bona fide spiritual master and says that one should always think of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relations with Mukunda (Sri Krsna..)"] (Manam-Siksa 2, Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami)

 

Sri Gurudeva is gaura-sakti, the divine energy of Sri Gauranga,

and gaura-priyattama, the dearmost of Sri Gauranga.

 

1. 41

saksad haritvena samasta sastrair

uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhim

kintu prabhor yam priya eva tasya

vande gurom sri--caranaravindam

According to the verdict of all the revealed scriptures and saintly persons, gurudeva is to be honored as much as Sri Krsna Himself. Gurudeva is considered as such because he is the dearmost servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna Caitanya. I offer my humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master. [NOTE: Quoting again the same Anubhasya commentary as in the previous verse, "Following in the footsteps of Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami and Srila Jiva Goswami, later acaryas like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti hakura have confirmed the same truths. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti hakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gaudiya Vaisnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient literatures of devotional service, and in the more recent songs of Bhaktivinoda hakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representative of Srila Nityananda Prabhu." ]

(Gurvastakam, 7, Visvanatha Cakravarti thakura.)

 

1. 42

suddha-bhaktam sri-guro sri sivasya ca bhagavata saha

abheda-drstim-tat -priyatama tvenaiva manyante

Whenever the scriptures describe sri gurudeva and Lord Siva as being nondifferent from Sri Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, pure devotees (suddha-bhaktas ) consider that this is because of their being the most beloved of Sri Krsna. [NOTE: Again quoting the same commentary of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati hakura as translated by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prahupada in Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.46: "Jiva Goswami has clearly defined that a pure devotee's observation of the spiritual master and Lord Siva as one with the Personality of Godhead exists in their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects." (Bhakti-Sandarbha 216, Sri Jiva Goswami)

 

One who becomes a guru in name only commits a great offense.

 

1. 43

gurur na sa syat sva-jano na sa syat

pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat

daivam na tat syan na patis ca sa syat

na mocayed yam samupeta mrtyum

One who cannot deliver his dependants from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a guru, a relative, a father, mother, demigod, or husband. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5 .5.18)

 

1. 44

sei se parama bandhu, sei pita-mata

sri-krsna-carane yei prema-bhakti-data

sakala janme pita-mata sabe paya

krsna guru nahi mile, bhajaha hiyaya

Under ordinary circumstances one's own father and mother are worshipable. And yet in every lifetime one gets a father and mother. It is a far rarer thing to get guru and Krsna. Because gurudeva can bestow prema-bhakti to the lotus feet of Krsna upon those who have attained his mercy, gurudeva is the topmost father and mother and friend of every living soul. (Caitanya Mangala, Madhya-khanda )

 

 

 

Thus ends the first jewel of the Gaudiya-Kanthahara, part one, entitled Guru-Tattva.

[krsna]

1. 44

sei se parama bandhu, sei pita-mata

sri-krsna-carane yei prema-bhakti-data

sakala janme pita-mata sabe paya

krsna guru nahi mile, bhajaha hiyaya

Under ordinary circumstances one's own father and mother are worshipable. And yet in every lifetime one gets a father and mother. It is a far rarer thing to get guru and Krsna. Because gurudeva can bestow prema-bhakti to the lotus feet of Krsna upon those who have attained his mercy, gurudeva is the topmost father and mother and friend of every living soul. (Caitanya Mangala, Madhya-khanda )

 

 

*********************************************

 

Ask youself if you really want to know who is your REAL father,mother,eternal well-wisher is?

Pray,Cry,Call out,

Bang your head agaist a rock

Enter the fire of repentance

And beg Krishna from the very core of your heart,mind and soul:

 

"Krishna,

please send me your very own Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead

a pure unalloyed premi-bhakta to whom I can fully and unconditionally surrender"

[Guest guest]

"the minimal standard is that a guru is uttama adhikari"

where did you get this idea?

..from sri guruvastakam for example

 

but that is not necessarily an objective opinion

...if some sadhus (=gbc) give the autorization "this guru can initiate in our organization", what's the use if they say also "but see for yourselves if they are fit or not to bring you back to godhead"?

 

in our tradition a guru is one who properly represents our disciplic succession.

...of course, and who can represent a dinasty of masters with prabhupada, bhaktisiddhanta, bhaktivinoda, gauranga and krsna inside if not a devotee of the highest level (=uttama)?

 

 

[Kulapavana]

you need to study our practical tradtion. besides these great maha-gurus you name, there were countless other Vaishnava gurus over the milleniums of our tradition and they trained scores of disciples who all made progress according to the sincerity of their desires.

[Guest guest]

 

...anyone can explain this to me? they allow but they do not take the responsability to say if he's an uttama adhikari or not. So, on wich basis they are allowing?......

 

 

Responsibility and choice is always up to the disciple, as I believe Kulapavana prabhu is stating. ISKCON allows initiations based more on loyalty to ISKCON and adherence to GBC policies, like a kind of contract. The disciple is also bound to some extent, at least tacitly agreeing to remain within the boundaries defined by ISKCON and not accept siksa for example from unauthorized or forbidden "gurus" completely outside the authority of the GBC, such as Srila Narayan Maharaj for example. Seems to me more an initiation into an organization than a sampradaya or genuine religious tradition.

 

In the opinion of some, this puts the disciples, potential and already initiated, in an unreasonable unjustifiable position, imposing restrictions that could possibly become detrimental to their spiritual progress. Of course, the rationale is that it's for the good of all concerned and in accordance with what Srila Prabhupada would have wanted. A few, such as yourself, appear to have their doubts. I'd be interested in whatever replies you may or may not receive from authorities both within and outside of ISKCON. Certainly, you pose a question well worth asking to those involved. Rather similar in my opinion to, "Why isn't the emporer wearing any clothes?" Something many dare not ask anymore...

[Guest guest]

"you need to study our practical tradtion. besides these great maha- gurus you name, there were countless other Vaishnava gurus over the milleniums of our tradition and they trained scores of disciples who all made progress according to the sincerity of their desires."

 

Exactly!

[krsna]

 

The real difficulty is becoming bona-fide disciple!

[krsna]

Srila Prabhupada in The Nectar of Instruction :

 

-------------

 

The spiritual master must not be subject to the advice of a disciple, nor should a spiritual master be obliged to take instructions from those who are not his disciples.

----------

NOI Text Six - purport

 

 

 

 

[krsna]

[Guest guest]

it is not a problem of historical importance .. the countless and unknown vaishnava gurus that you are speaking of, have to be like the one of the guruvastakam prayers if they want to bring one or one thousand disciples back to godhead

 

the guru can send us to goloka vrindaban if he's from goloka vrindaban

[Guest guest]

"the guru can send us to goloka vrindaban if he's from goloka vrindaban"

 

Of course, but he/she can also take us as far as they can, then we are passed to another. Do we really expect this all to happen in one short lifetime? It can, however with mine obviously coming closer to the end I'm seeing everything from a different perspective than I used to, so many years ago. IMHO all ultimately depends on His Divine Grace and, in rare cases, Their Lordships themselves.

[Guest guest]

Too much focus on who is 'best' or who can do something (take you back to godhead) for you. The real question worth asking yourself is what it means to be a bona fide disciple.

 

If you are an aspiring vaishnava and you want to make progress you should find someone who can help you. If they inspire you in such a way, then you may take diksha from such an inspiring vaishnava.

 

It's not nearly as difficult as it seems. It is easy to find faults with others, but it is more difficult to be honest with yourself and take the steps necessary for your own improvement.

 

No one is going to tell you what to do or in whom to place to your faith. Faith is a subjective thing. It is like marriage in some ways. You may want to marry a certain woman/man but others will tell you why it is not a good match and suggest to you a better match etc. But you will ultimately follow your own heart. Afterall, vaishnavism is all about developing your heart.

 

But you should know for certain that in order to make tangible spiritual progress it is a necessity to find the company of sadhus. We all need good company and should strive to ourselves become good company for others.

 

Your servant,

Audarya-lila dasa

[Guest guest]

Of course, but he/she can also take us as far as they can, then we are passed to another

..there's no song or prayer or verse in the scriptures who recommends a guru like that, guru is one who can bring the disciple to krsna. Of course hearing me saying "chant hare krishna!!!" is better than nothing, but i am not a guru in the proper sense

 

Do we really expect this all to happen in one short lifetime?

...you are right, but pure devotees are available, eternally available, so better to pray and search for them even if we will not get all the benefit in one lifetime. Spiritual advancement does not die with our body. If i surrender to an uttama adhikari now and i die without going to krsna, in the next life surely i will take shelter of another uttama guru.. an essential and eternal achievement is done, it will be not possible to fall from this

 

IMHO all ultimately depends on His Divine Grace and, in rare cases, Their Lordships themselves.

...the will of sri krsna and the acharyas are coincident... we have to pray them to send us the best guru available, not something to advance a little

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Too much focus on who is 'best' or who can do something (take you back to godhead) for you. The real question worth asking yourself is what it means to be a bona fide disciple.

--of course, but a bona fide disciple looks for a bona fide master. To look for the real thing is a duty of the good disciple, if we consider our master not absolute and we go on following him it is because we like to have independence... "he's only 80% realized, so i have a 20% of freedom to not obey"

 

But you should know for certain that in order to make tangible spiritual progress it is a necessity to find the company of sadhus.

--yes... real sadhus will bring us to the real guru

[krsna]

[krsna]

 

 

Knowledge is the solution--First Find A Bona Fide Guru

 

For knowledge we have got to go to the right person, one who has actually seen or experienced the Absolute Truth. Unless we find such a person who has actually seen the Absolute Truth or who has in his experience what is Absolute Truth, there is very little chance of our spiritual advancement.

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

[bhagavad-gita 4.34-38 New York, August 17, 1966]