GBC Pure Devotees

[theist]

I just read that Satsvarupa is no longer allowed,by the GBC, to initiate disciples. This may be a timely example.

 

What about those that he initiated just prior to this ruling?

 

Perhaps if they had been instructed to seek out the voice of the Lord in the Heart He may have told them to accept teachings, as in lectures etc., from Satsvaupra but not to try and surrender their souls and look to him as their prime connection to Krsna. If you know what I am trying to say.

 

I should say here that I only met him a couple of times long ago but still have much respect for him. If he is at a small bump on the path Krsna will rectify it quickly I'm sure.

[Kulapavana]

"What about those that he initiated just prior to this ruling?"

 

it is their call (as always). but I dont think they fall into the "cheaters who seeked out a cheater" category our guest seems to put them in. as usual in life, things are a bit more complicated than the neat models we create in our mind. your point about listening to the Lord in the heart is very valid. I always try to tune in and if I listen hard enough - it is always a correct choice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ancient_paztriot]

Ok, besides guest(s); I'll challenge.

 

Prabhupada is the easiest thing to sell. Why haven't they been able to sell him… (as in people wanting it/him)?

 

Things have not even been maintained? Is it all Krsna's desire? Is Supersoul telling you that?

 

Or did I misread you?

 

Leaders EVERYWHERE are unqualified!

 

Will the next Prabhupada please stand up? Who carries the tourch? Do his statements supercede Prabhupada?!?!?

 

If they do, you'd better take a closer look.

[Kulapavana]

I think you are misreading my posts to some extent. I see what GBC is doing with the guru issue as just one of the options, and not necessarily the best one (the lack of flexibility is a big problem for me). as to "selling" Prabhupada: are you refering to the ritvik system?

 

personally, I reject all "options" which are not expressly sanctioned in our tradition. Vedic system of gurus and disciples has been around for a very long time and there is no need to re-invent it. I have criticized GBC for all kinds of stuff in the past (and I still do) - that is the easy part. Doing actual service to Prabhupada's mission - that is much harder.

[ancient_paztriot]

There is the tradition you speak of. Like varnashrama… it is by quality, not birthright… or position!

 

"I see what GBC is doing with the guru issue as just one of the options, and not necessarily the best one (the lack of flexibility is a big problem for me)"

 

I sympathize with them. I really do. But if their standards compromise the absolutely pure and uncompromising standards of yoga or KC (what matters most to Krsna… what they pretend to advocate) are compromised for political and economic advantage… Need I say more?

 

What is the result?

 

Did individuals gain at everyone else's expense? Whoah… dare I ask? Are they still there?

 

Did they initiate change or were they FORCED to back off of their absurd positions? Did they ever GIVE ground? I just remember a one-way street.

 

Am I describing history accurately or am I a troubled student?

....................................

"Doing actual service to Prabhupada's mission - that is much harder."

 

That service has to be consistent with tradition - and purity - and not motivated with selfish concerns.

[vijay]

--"""of course.. and it is not the main problem. The main problem is that an institution first approves a guru, then, in case that he falls the institution say "it was not our duty to recognize if he was authentic or not". My point is, let the devotees be free. But now you have to choosen between the authorized gurus, to avoid association with the unauthorized ones, but this authorization means nothing... and if your guru falls down you are the cheater who has choosen a cheater as guru.. they have no responsability"""

 

The GBC sets out a minimum criterion to who can be a guru in ISKCON. They dont declare a mahabhagvat. Only the individual can decide who is the highest and who they will gain the most spritual advancemnet from.

 

"My point is, let the devotees be free. But now you have to choosen between the authorized gurus, to avoid association with the unauthorized ones"

 

The devotees are free if they dont want a guru in ISKCON as i think your point is, then go outside of ISKCON like many have done. ISKCON is an organisation trying to be based on prabhupada's teachings and they have made many mistakes, if someone wants to leave then leave hope they advance in spiritual life.

 

""but this authorization means nothing... ""

Its a minimum criterion by a group of sadhus. The judgeing of purity is always down to ones self. The purer we are krishna rewards us accordingly. Simple for the simple, more difficult for those with an agenda

 

Jai

 

 

[Guest guest]

The GBC sets out a minimum criterion to who can be a guru in ISKCON. They dont declare a mahabhagvat

...what is that minimum criterion? i have seen that some other devotee has given this definition but i don't know what it could be.. i believed that the minimum criterion for a guru was to be a mahabhagavat... bhagavan god, bhagavat book, bhagavat person

 

Only the individual can decide who is the highest and who they will gain the most spritual advancemnet from.

...it is not a subjective matter, if the guru is a real guru he can deliver everyone, there were no question, with prabhupada present in this world, to choose anyone more fit for the practitioneer, prabhupada, as real guru, was fit for everyone. And if only the individual can decide, what's the use of approving? to say that the approved guru follows the four principles and that he chants his rounds?

 

The devotees are free if they dont want a guru in ISKCON as i think your point is

.....my point is that a devotee gives advices and instructions taking the responsability of it, not saying "i have given this advice but ultimately it is up to you". This behaviour, together with the many fallen gurus, leads the people to have little faith in the guru principle. The results are clear from how the things are going on, and from the answers given in this debate, who are in many cases for bypassing the guru, that we listen paramatma by ourselves and so on.. .

 

In iskcon, in my opinion, there's authentic spiritual masters, but the environment is somewhat giving the message that it is not possible to have real gurus after srila prabhupada.... this is my point, i do not want to criticize or destroy

 

Its a minimum criterion by a group of sadhus. The judgeing of purity is always down to ones self.

....sadhus are meant to teach us purity and to recognise it, how can we do it by ourselves?

 

Simple for the simple, more difficult for those with an agenda

....and the simple is that if i am competent in a matter, the people who is asking something to me want real advices, real judgements. Prabhupada had no fear to judge: "he's a pure devotee... he's a rascal cheater"

 

hare krishna

[ancient_paztriot]

Hayagriva dasa: Pascal writes: “If we submit everything to reason, our religion will have no mysterious and supernatural element. If we offend the principles of reason, our religion will be absurd and ridiculous.”

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. The orders of God constitute religion, and if we carry out these orders, we are religious. Paeudo-religions, religions that cheat, are condemned in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Any religious system which has no conception of God and which annually changes its resolutions is not a religion but a farce.

 

And the government; how many crazy laws everyday?

[vijay]

 

 

"...it is not a subjective matter, if the guru is a real guru he can deliver everyone, there were no question, with prabhupada present in this world, to choose anyone more fit for the practitioneer, prabhupada, as real guru, was fit for everyone."

 

How does the above statement make choosing a guru objective?

People still have to investigate, whether the philosophy made sense, choosing between other sects like swaminarayans etc, some diciples went to the gaudiya math, some joined rajnesh. Prabhupada him self said dont choose a guru blindly, it means we have to choose him with intelligence. Many people think this guru and that guru is bonifide ultimately we have to decide. If you think its such an objective thing you tell me what that clear and objective fact is that makes a guru clearly real.

 

"And if only the individual can decide, what's the use of approving?"

 

ISKCON is an organisation the aproving acts as a minimum check that these devotees know the philosophy and are in good standing with regards to practice. The rest is up to you, you may find someone not on the list good for you.

 

 

 

 

 

"".....my point is that a devotee gives advices and instructions taking the responsability of it, not saying "i have given this advice but ultimately it is up to you". "

 

Well a devotee will give advice to the degree he is capable of. A devotee may not be able to see in to the future but tries his best to give other devotees what he can. And ulimately everything is down to the individual devotees endeavour for truth.

 

"This behaviour, together with the many fallen gurus, leads the people to have little faith in the guru principle. The results are clear from how the things are going on, and from the answers given in this debate, who are in many cases for bypassing the guru, that we listen paramatma by ourselves and so on.. . ""

 

Yes many mistakes have been made and many will be made. People may lack faith.

Well my point is if you are sincire then krishna will send you a guru. sincire meaning not blind faith but through knowledge and understanding.

 

 

"In iskcon, in my opinion, there's authentic spiritual masters, but the environment is somewhat giving the message that it is not possible to have real gurus after srila prabhupada.... this is my point, i do not want to criticize or destroy "

 

I dont feel this i myself have strong faith in some spritual masters in ISKCON, but i realise others will not.

 

"....sadhus are meant to teach us purity and to recognise it, how can we do it by ourselves?"

Yes true but we also have intelligence, prabhupada has given us masses of books, sadhus are ment to direct us and sadhus arent all self realised im afraid so we have to judge according to knowledge given to us by prabhupada.

It was seen by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Prabhupada, that bhaktivinde takhur rejected his diksa guru, so again im reminding you if someone as scholorly as bhaktivinde takhur chose someone not so spirtually great then im sure there isnt such an objective fact which is so clear as to prove which guru is real and which is not. I think you have some fixed ideal model in your mind that doesnt reflect reality, or you know something about guru qualities that even bhakti vinod takhur didnt know.

 

 

"....and the simple is that if i am competent in a matter, the people who is asking something to me want real advices, real judgements. Prabhupada had no fear to judge: "he's a pure devotee... he's a rascal cheater

 

Well prabhupada made contridictory statements about his godbrothers sometimes they are pure and sometimes compared them to kanistha's and mosquitoes, so again like ive explained above either you know something we dont know or you have a model which doesnt fit reality

 

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Well a devotee will give advice to the degree he is capable of. A devotee may not be able to see in to the future but tries his best to give other devotees what he can.

....this is not the behaviour of a sadhu, this is an aspiring sadhu, a conditioned soul who's practising

 

Well my point is if you are sincire then krishna will send you a guru.

...i a gree, so what's the need of approvation if this is the only parameter? and if the approvation is superficial and without responsability?

 

sincire meaning not blind faith but through knowledge and understanding.

...and this knowledge has to be given by sastra and......... sadhu

 

prabhupada has given us masses of books, sadhus are ment to direct us and sadhus arent all self realised im afraid so we have to judge according to knowledge given to us by prabhupada.

....so again "do it yourself" because sadhus are not real sadhus

 

I think you have some fixed ideal model in your mind that doesnt reflect reality

.....i simply read the sri guruvastakam and i see that the guru is one who partecipates to krsna lila and lives a parallel life in the spiritual world relationating with krsna and so on, not simply someone more expert than me. And i am very sad that the standard set by this song that we chant every morning is considered somewhat mytological or symbolic. If we believe like that, there's the possibility that we will not recognise the mahabhagavata if we will be blessed by his association

 

Well prabhupada made contridictory statements about his godbrothers sometimes they are pure and sometimes compared them to kanistha's and mosquitoes

.....there was no contraddiction, it is clearly explained by him, that he was critical mainly to keep with him not so faithul disciples... so, even if at the end of his presence in the planet, the matter is cleared and we know who, for prabhupada, was a rascal or a devotee

.

.

.

 

 

but i will be very glad to you if you'll answer to this answer/doubt i have already expressed:

 

"The GBC sets out a minimum criterion to who can be a guru in ISKCON. They dont declare a mahabhagvat

...what is that minimum criterion? i have seen that some other devotee has given this definition but i don't know what it could be.. i believed that the minimum criterion for a guru was to be a mahabhagavat... bhagavan god, bhagavat book, bhagavat person"

 

many thanks... hare krishna

[vijay]

Im getting tired with your narrow definitions and out of context answers of whatever i say.

I will make things as clear as possible.

 

YOU SAID

....this is not the behaviour of a sadhu, this is an aspiring sadhu, a conditioned soul who's practising

 

I SAY

A sadhu can be a conditioned soul on the path to krishna

 

PRABHUPAD AND KRISHNA SAY

 

In general, when dealing with devotees, we should not try to

find faults. In Bhagavad-gita also it is confirmed that the

devotee who faithfully serves the Supreme Lord, even if found to commit a gross mistake, should be considered a sadhu, or saintly person. Due to former habits he may commit some wrong, but because he is engaged in the service of the Lord, that wrong should not be taken very seriously.

 

I SAID

 

prabhupada has given us masses of books, sadhus are ment to direct us and sadhus arent all self realised im afraid so we have to judge according to knowledge given to us by prabhupada.

 

YOU SAID

....so again "do it yourself" because sadhus are not real sadhus

 

I SAY

 

The point of the above statemnet if you took it in context is that we dont know what a self realised person is.

SO we have to read books understand the philosophy, associate with devotees, and with this understanding JUDGE with intelligence AND Recomendation from other devotees we have faith in to guide us to a bonafide spirtual master.

IF YOU HAVE A SPECIAL WAY OF KNOWING OBJECTIVELY LIKE YOU SAID THEN PLEASE LET ME KNOW IT WILL SAVE ME ALOT OF TIME.

 

AND IM NOT SAYING ITS A DO IT YOURSELF PHILOSOPHY READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY.

 

WHAT YOU SAID

....so again "do it yourself" because sadhus are not real sadhus

 

WE ARE GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES IVE SAID YOU HAVE TO READ AND BE GUIDED BY DEVOTEES TO A SPIRTUAL MASTER, IF YOU KNOW A SPECIAL WAY TO KNOW A REAL SADHU OR GURU PLEASE TELL ME YOU KEEP AVOIDING THIS PLEASE ANSWER ME.

 

I AGREE A SPIRTUAL MASTER SHOULD BE A MAHABHAGVAT HAVING LILAS IN THE SPIRTUAL WORLD BUT HOW DO WE KNOW OBJECTIVELY LIKE YOU SAID PLEASE ANSWER THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.

 

YOU ASKED

but i will be very glad to you if you'll answer to this answer/doubt i have already expressed:

"The GBC sets out a minimum criterion to who can be a guru in ISKCON. They dont declare a mahabhagvat

...what is that minimum criterion? i have seen that some other devotee has given this definition but i don't know what it could be.. i believed that the minimum criterion for a guru was to be a mahabhagavat... bhagavan god, bhagavat book, bhagavat person"

 

I ALREADY SAID

 

ISKCON is an organisation the aproving acts as a minimum check that these devotees know the philosophy and are in good standing with regards to practice. The rest is up to you, you may find someone not on the list good for you.

 

Its a minimum criterion by a group of sadhus. The judgeing of purity is always down to ones self. It may not be the best system, youve got an objective system please share it.

 

 

YOU MAY ASK IN THE FUTURE

A sadhu is suppose to direct us to a maha bhagvat guru etc...

 

I WILL SAY

How do you know what a pure guru is or a pure sadhu that you can totally believe therefore you have to read and take the advice of people you have some faith in and pray to krishna as you advance you will recognise purity.

 

ISSUES YOU STILL HAVENT ADRESSED/IGNORED PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS BELOW AS YOUR FIRST PRIORITY BEFORE YOU START NIT PICKING

How come bhaktivinde takhur rejected his guru, he is a self relised guru, wasnt it easy for him to find a guru by listening to sadhus? He was a great scholor himself.

Whats the objective way of finding a self relised guru like youve claimed.

 

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS AND DONT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW TO KNOW WHO IS BONIFIDE GURU.

 

 

 

 

[theist]

This mistaken conception seems to perpetually arise.

 

 

The results are clear from how the things are going on, and from the answers given in this debate, who are in many cases for bypassing the guru, that we listen paramatma by ourselves and so on.. .

 

 

This is NOT bypassing guru. It is the ONLY way to insure accepting the genuine one.

 

Please try to understand this simple point.

[Guest guest]

Im getting tired with your narrow definitions and out of context answers of whatever i say.

...i am not paying you for speaking with me... you are free to stop

 

A sadhu can be a conditioned soul on the path to krishna

...when we say about learning spiritual consciousness from guru, shastra, sadhus.. the meaning of that "sadhus" is pure devotees

 

In general, when dealing with devotees, we should not try to

find faults

....of course this is right when we are speaking of a particular persons, but i am speaking of cathegories, principles

 

prabhupada has given us masses of books, sadhus are ment to direct us and sadhus arent all self realised im afraid so we have to judge according to knowledge given to us by prabhupada

....it is not a new thing that prabhupada used the word "devotee" in different context with different meaning... and again i do not think that guru, sastra and sadhus means something different from pure guru, pure sastra and pure sadhus

 

The point of the above statemnet if you took it in context is that we dont know what a self realised person is.

SO we have to read books understand the philosophy, associate with devotees, and with this understanding JUDGE with intelligence AND Recomendation from other devotees we have faith in to guide us to a bonafide spirtual master.

....add that we have to pray and to chant hare krishna sincerely to call service and i completely agree... the only thing is that a devotee who says to me "this guru is good, you can take shelter.." has to do it with responsability, especially if he is in a leading position. "He's a guru , but ultimately it is only up to you" is useless. And maybe who gives advices like that it is not so trusty also when he judges who is not fit to be a guru or who does not belong to prabhupada's movement

 

I AGREE A SPIRTUAL MASTER SHOULD BE A MAHABHAGVAT HAVING LILAS IN THE SPIRTUAL WORLD BUT HOW DO WE KNOW OBJECTIVELY LIKE YOU SAID PLEASE ANSWER THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

...whatever could be the system (ultimately it's krsna's mercy), if someone approves a devotee factually suggesting people to take him as guru, he simply has to be himself a real guru and he has to be ready to take the responsability of a mistake

 

ISKCON is an organisation the aproving acts as a minimum check that these devotees know the philosophy

...simply i am so dull to not understand what is a minimum check of philosophy understanding speaking of a guru and why it is considered an approvation for a so hugely important thing like proposing spiritual masters for thousand of prabhupada's followers, who are respectable practising vaishnavas, not common people...

 

youve got an objective system please share it.

...if no one gives responsible advices.. better not proposing, proposition is in itself and it is used as an imposition and discrimination.. so, if this proposition is not fully responsible, better not to do it

 

I WILL SAY

How do you know what a pure guru is or a pure sadhu that you can totally believe therefore you have to read and take the advice of people you have some faith in and pray to krishna as you advance you will recognise purity.

... i completely agree.. so the proposition/imposition is useless... let us not cheat devotees recommending people that we would not acccept as master for ourselves

 

How come bhaktivinde takhur rejected his guru, he is a self relised guru, wasnt it easy for him to find a guru by listening to sadhus? He was a great scholor himself.

...my point is not that is easy to find a guru or to suggest gurus to the devotees ... my problem is when the inaccuracy and irresponsability is somewhat institutionalized

 

Whats the objective way of finding a self relised guru like youve claimed.

....mercy, only mercy, if we are not pure devotees we cannot recognize pure devotees...... but if we are pure we can surely recognise. So what's the meaning of an half recommendation: "we recommend to you this man as guru, but ultimately we do not know if he really is"?

 

i call it gambling, lack of honesty and responsability..

 

and the same thing is done saying : "we do not approve, do not associate.. do not take initiation or you'll be outside prabhupada's movement"

 

only a guru can judge and suggest a guru

[ancient_paztriot]

Ditto that.

 

What would we know without Prabhupada's efforts (And those before him)?

 

Guru is teacher. Do away with the teacher?

[Guest guest]

This is NOT bypassing guru. It is the ONLY way to insure accepting the genuine one.

Please try to understand this simple point.

 

 

a real guru comes by his mercy, not because we, communicating with paramatma or after realizing paramatma by ourselves, recognize him

 

if we are conditionated there's no way to communicate with paramatma (=krsna), without the medium of a bonafide spiritual master

 

first we see guru, then he gives to us the krsna's(=paramatma's) vision

 

om ajnana-timirandasya jnananjnana salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena tasmai sri gurave namah

 

I offer my most humble obeisances to my spiritual master who has opened my eyes which were blinded by ignorance with the light of knowledge.

 

.. eyes blinded by ignorance cannot see paramatma

[sudhaya]

a real guru comes by his mercy, not because we, communicating with paramatma or after realizing paramatma by ourselves, recognize him

 

if we are conditionated there's no way to communicate with paramatma (=krsna), without the medium of a bonafide spiritual master

 

first we see guru, then he gives to us the krsna's(=paramatma's) vision

 

om ajnana-timirandasya jnananjnana salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena tasmai sri gurave namah

 

I offer my most humble obeisances to my spiritual master who has opened my eyes which were blinded by ignorance with the light of knowledge.

==========

 

Huh? yes but who gives Guru?

 

KRSNA!!!

 

what you said makes no sense without saying KRNSA gives Guru, you are missing out Paramamta from the equation.

 

Thiest prabhu was right all along.

[Guest guest]

"is for each individual to realize that there is no substitute for hearing from Supersoul as to whom He wants you to hear from. Faith and attention should be directed there right from day one."

 

krsna gives to me the guru, but by his unconditioned mercy, not because i realize krsna by myself then i have the skills to recognize the guru

 

this was the point, not that paramatma is not in the equation.. it is not possible to hear the supersoul without the medium of sri guru

[vijay]

we are getting in to epistemology how do you know what is pure?

 

I may say to you that i think these guys could be pure but i dont know until i am pure. How do you know someone is pure? How do you recognise a guru sent by mercy?

Anyway from what i gatheed from prabhupada its very simple, chant, pray, read, do service and we will realise through the heart, i dont mean it sentimentally by reading, following and hearing our primary siksha guru srila prabhupada we can become purer and thus find a high level devotee.

 

Pray for the mercy

 

 

 

 

[vijay]

You SAID

 

krsna gives to me the guru, but by his unconditioned mercy, not because i realize krsna by myself then i have the skills to recognize the guru

 

I HUMBLY ASK

How do you know krishna has given you that guru, how do you know he is pure and from krishna?

[Guest guest]

I may say to you that i think these guys could be pure but i dont know until i am pure

--we are not talking of purity.. we are talking of basic sense of responsability. If a "council of doctors" recommends a list of doctors for a community, they cannot add : "..... but it's up to you to judge if they cure or kill" or they will be automatically disqualified. Better to say nothing and give the freedom. The nice fact is that gbcs admit gurus.. and, with the same competence, also reject gurus and advice people that they are not bonafide or not in the prabhupada's path.

 

How do you know krishna has given you that guru, how do you know he is pure and from krishna?

--i do not understand it until i am also pure

 

so if only pure people can understand, they will have no problem to take the full responsability of what they say

 

haribol

[theist]

See it is not that everyone will hear some inner voice speaking to them in their native tongue saying "go accept that person as Guru."

 

Nor am I suggesting anything unusual. Right now Supersoul is directing the wanderings of all living entities based on their desires. Some want to be demons and atheists. Krsna fullfills their desire. Some want to be demigods and again Supersoul directs them.

 

Anything you have is awarded to you by God in accordance with your desire. Isopanishad right? He is the self sufficient philosopher that is awarding everyone his desire since time immemoriable.

 

So are we to assume that Supersoul will give anyone, rather godly or demonic, their desire but not someone who sincerely asks for a guru to reveal to him Krsna consciousness? Does that make any sense at all?

 

Now isn't it a form of atheism or at least very weak faith to think that if I or my commitee doesn't reveal to these newbies who their guru is they won't know?

 

Seriously why even listen to people that think that way. They don't even really have faith that Supersoul exists. What a sad ___king joke.

 

There is no one closer to you than Krsna. He is the Soul of all souls. We have to have a little faith that He will lead us to the one He wants us to hear from. He is our ever-well wisher right? We always tell that to the "karmis" but apparently we don't even believe it ourselves.

 

All this appointed acarya and mundane votes for guru etc. is just faithless horse ____. Nothing more. Something to avoid as you walk down the street of life.

 

Watch your step.

 

 

 

 

Devotee (3): Does he know when... “The Supreme Lord sits in anyone’s heart, O Arjuna, and He’s directing the wandering of all living entities.” Does He know when the living entities are going to surrender unto Him?

 

Prabhupäda: So?

 

Pusta Krsna: The question is: if Krsna is sitting in everyone’s heart and He knows the wanderings of all living entities—He’s directing the wandering of all living entities—then does Krsna know the time, or does He direct the living entity at some certain time to surrender or is this the will of the living entity?

 

Prabhupäda: He knows. Yes, He knows. What is your...? Is there any doubt?

 

Devotee (3): No, it wasn’t a doubt, but...

 

Prabhupäda: So what is the time He knows, do you know that? He knows that he will surrender, but when he will surrender... Then? That question must be there. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gétä. Mäm eva ye prapadyante mäyäm etäà taranti te [bg. 7.14]. He knows that “He’ll be happy provided he surrenders unto Me, otherwise not.” That He knows also. Is it all right? He knows that “As soon as he is surrendered unto Me he’ll be free from the clutches of mäyä,” and He knows it also, “If he does not know do so, then he’ll never be free from mäyä.” Both things He knows. Is it clear or not?

 

Pusta Krsna: But it’s the living entity’s choice to surrender.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. He knows everything.

 

Pusta Krsna: But then they give the argument, “If He knows, then how does the living entity have choice?”

 

Prabhupäda: Yes, that is given to him. He knows that “I have given him the independence,” so you can use your choice. That He knows also. Yathecchasi tathä kuru. He knows.

 

Pusta Krsna: This is understanding things in proper light.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Devotee (3): See, the argument could come that “If He is directing the wanderings of all living entities then I don’t have to worry about surrendering. He will direct me to it.”

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. But ye yathä mäà prapadyante [bg. 4.11]. Why don’t you see other verse? He is directing according to your desire—unless you surrender. There are two kinds of direction. One kind of direction is when you do not surrender, and one kind of direction, when you have surrendered, because these things are there. My position is either surrender or not surrender. So the not surrender will get one kind of direction and the surrender will get another kind of direction. Both ways, there is direction. Without His direction he cannot act. Is it clear or not? He gives direction to both of them, but this both, one who is surrendered is a different person from the person who is surrendered. So they, both of them, get different direction in different position, but without His direction he cannot act, either the surrendered or not the surrendered. He has to give direction. So if you think, “My Lord, send me to the hell. I will be very much satisfied,” “All right, you go to hell in this way. This is the path.” And if you say “My lord, kindly take me to Your shelter,” then He will give you direction, “You come in this way.”

 

 

[theist]

In the same way that Supersoul strengthens and directs the faith of someone towards a particular demigod according to the desire of that individual,so He will also direct and strengthen the faith of someone who becomes desirous of knowing Him towards someone who already knows Him so that he can be taught.

 

This should be stressed to anyone that first comes to a sunday feast. Pray to God for guidance.

 

This is so basic, so fundemental. I have to view any formulea that detracts from this as a misdirection from Maya.

 

 

TRANSLATION

I am in everyone’s heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

 

PURPORT

God has given independence to everyone; therefore, if a person desires to have material enjoyment and wants very sincerely to have such facilities from the material demigods, the Supreme Lord, as Supersoul in everyone’s heart, understands and gives facilities to such persons. As the supreme father of all living entities, He does not interfere with their independence, but gives all facilities so that they can fulfill their material desires. Some may ask why the all-powerful God gives facilities to the living entities for enjoying this material world and so lets them fall into the trap of the illusory energy. The answer is that if the Supreme Lord as Supersoul does not give such facilities, then there is no meaning to independence. Therefore He gives everyone full independence—whatever one likes—but His ultimate instruction we find in the Bhagavad-gétä: one should give up all other engagements and fully surrender unto Him. That will make man happy.

Both the living entity and the demigods are subordinate to the will of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore the living entity cannot worship the demigod by his own desire, nor can the demigod bestow any benediction without the supreme will. As it is said, not a blade of grass moves without the will of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Generally, persons who are distressed in the material world go to the demigods, as they are advised in the Vedic literature. A person wanting some particular thing may worship such and such a demigod. For example, a diseased person is recommended to worship the sun-god; a person wanting education may worship the goddess of learning, Sarasvaté; and a person wanting a beautiful wife may worship the goddess Umä, the wife of Lord Siva. In this way there are recommendations in the çästras (Vedic scriptures) for different modes of worship of different demigods. And because a particular living entity wants to enjoy a particular material facility, the Lord inspires him with a strong desire to achieve that benediction from that particular demigod, and so he successfully receives the benediction. The particular mode of the devotional attitude of the living entity toward a particular type of demigod is also arranged by the Supreme Lord. The demigods cannot infuse the living entities with such an affinity, but because He is the Supreme Lord, or the Supersoul who is present in the hearts of all living entities, Krsna gives impetus to man to worship certain demigods. The demigods are actually different parts of the universal body of the Supreme Lord; therefore they have no independence. In the Vedic literature it is stated: “The Supreme Personality of Godhead as Supersoul is also present within the heart of the demigod; therefore He arranges through the demigod to fulfill the desire of the living entity. But both the demigod and the living entity are dependent on the supreme will. They are not independent.”

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

Woah, I was reading through your post and just jolted at this…

 

"Without His direction he cannot act."

 

… but too deep to penetrate.

 

There's very few people I read here these days. But I always like your posts. (Would like to hear more from Stonehearted and Gauracandra).

[theist]

How did Srila Prabhupada's disciples recognize him if not be the grace of the Lord in the Heart?

 

So why do they assume the Lord in the Heart will not be as gracious unto the next generation?

 

Better IMO to give up all involvement in the "initiating guru game" and just concentrate on the quality of the shiksa. If it is needed to keep some initiation formality for the sake of proper deity worship that's one thing but to then assume that person is taking full responsibility for taking you back to Krsna's lotus feet when he himself is not there yet is silly.

 

Just concentrating on giving 1st class shiksa to whoever Krsna brings to and then leave the rest to Supersoul. Everything will still go on as it has since the first day of Brahma (and before).

 

Our whimsical participation in the mtter is not reqired or desired.

[ancient_paztriot]

"Our whimsical participation in the mtter is not reqired or desired."

 

And it can be dangerous by association. That's why I don't read most of these people. I don't feel it's supportive.