GBC Pure Devotees

[theist]

 

"Without His direction he cannot act."

 

… but too deep to penetrate.

 

(Would like to hear more from Stonehearted and Gauracandra).

 

 

Yes, we can't even move a finger or take a breath without the sanction of the Supreme Lord. We can't even forget Him without His Ok. We are completely and totally dependent beings. He gives us freedom of desire but without Him none of those desires could be fulfilled.

 

Yeah, I have wondering where they have gone also. So many people have dropped of or rarely come by. What's up with that?

 

[vijay]

I kinda agree with you patriot, ultimately its our own journey back home back to godhead, and we can only go back if we have a pure desire.

 

If someone is following prabhupada and giving good shiksha then take it. For me the guru nominating system isnt a bad thing it may not be so effective but it keeps open a choice for devotees to get shiksha from and diksa. These nominated gurus may be kanishta madhyama or uttama and you know you can test them if you want, ask your questions etc, the nomination just says they are available its up to the indivdual to judge. There are diciples and gurus also in kanishta madyama and utama level. The kanishta will proclaim his guru is the best, trying to defeat others because of his or her own insecurites, thinking his diciples the best and not able to take shiksha from anyone else.

 

Ultimately we will be awarded by the sincerity of our desire and determination. Its easy to critise which ive done alot of in the past, its more rewarding to understand and try and help the mission through our service. Alot of vaishnavas on this planet arent 100% on the lilas with krishna stage, but we have to help each other, we should associate with higher devotees and instruct the once less advanced as stated in nector of devotion.

 

 

[stonehearted]

I think theist has presented the point very clearly. One of the first things I learned was that by the grace of Krishna, one gets a guru, and by the grace of the guru, one gets Krishna. Mahaprabhu says that after wandering endlessly throughout the brahmanda, the most fortunate souls receive the seed of the creeper of devotion by the mercy of guru and Krishna.

 

I haven't been a big fan of the bureaucratic system ISKCON's GBC has (nor of their faith in their annual fine tunings of same), but they're probably trying to figure out something that works. (And that's the question, isn't it?)

 

I've been really busy; it's the end of the semester. And I'm not always sure when my contributions are useful, so I've been a little reserved.

[theist]

 

For me the guru nominating system isnt a bad thing it may not be so effective but it keeps open a choice for devotees to get shiksha from and diksa.

 

 

vijay, both siksha and diksa will continue on. They are being conducted by the Supreme Person. Actually it could be argued that the present nominating system it a block in the free flow of faith. And how else does eternal knowledge flow but freely? And perhaps in a winding way. It's dynamic afterall.

 

For Deity worship their system makes sense to me but not when it comes to eternal links.

 

I see a time when it will be more like this. And if someone does feel promoted from the Lord to accept disciples formally and someone feels prompted from the Lord to accept that person as guru, if that RELATIONSHIP develops, then why couldn't it be carried on outside the ISKCON structure.

 

If people didn't come to the temples and start promoting their guru to others there what would be the harm. It just takes a little maturity. If there was no "initiating structure" there(in Iskcon) to protect what could be the harm.

 

We each need to develop our own spiritual eyes. For that there is an imperative and no substitute.

 

Ok Babhru, summer is almost here so that excuse won't last much longer.

[gHari]

His Divine Grace Sri Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaja speaks about The Qualities of a Sadhu:<blockquote>How can we recognize the suddha bhakta, the pure devotee? The signs, symptoms and attributes of the suddha bhakta have been elucidated in Caitanya Caritamrta. In this literature, Kaviraja Gosvami has narrated the life and precepts of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In Madhya-lila, he has written, "It is very difficult to narrate all the qualities of a Vaisnava. So, I am giving only a general overview, a hint of this." </blockquote>

[sudhaya]

 

Hare Krishna,

 

Was very nice, after some thought, I think we are lazy to look at qualities, we assume with our puny minds, in a negative way, in the article it says 'open your heart',

 

Who resides within the heart? Paramatma.

 

Also it says how do we gain attachment to KRNSA if He not talk to us, in answer it say to gain association of devotees who are in contact with KRSNA.

 

Loads more in there..Haribol

[vijay]

---------------------------

vijay, both siksha and diksa will continue on. They are being conducted by the Supreme Person. Actually it could be argued that the present nominating system it a block in the free flow of faith. And how else does eternal knowledge flow but freely? And perhaps in a winding way. It's dynamic afterall.

---------------------------

 

I agree faith is free flowing, and it can be argued that there is a block and there should be non of these nominations and limited choices etc.

 

However Srila Prabhupada created an organisation for preaching and to set up a community of devotees now the aims of the devotees of this organisation have to be one, the following of prabhupada under his organisation, this is what prabhupada wanted. some unity and oraganisation. Therefore the organisation recomends shiksha and diksha from persons following prabhpadas organisation to avoid conflicts of philosophy athority and aims. We traditionally havent had that in the past, but now there is a untited effort to preach in an organisation prabhupada has set up for us, that has to be mantained, other gurus outside of ISKCON may not want to work under the GBC that prabhpada set up therefore there is a clash of aims. So you are right that faith should be free flowing but there is also an organisation that aims to keep its memebrs united. It may not be carried out in the bast possible way with many mistakes being made, but if anyone can see a better way of resolving it keeping the aims and athority structure prabhupada has given us then please suggest so.

Its always easy to see the ideal but practical implementation is a tad more difficult.

 

Hari Hari

 

[Guest guest]

Therefore the organisation recomends shiksha and diksha from persons following prabhpadas organisation to avoid conflicts of philosophy athority and aims.

 

the problem is that everything is turned in beaureaucracy and that some "outside" guru are following and teaching prabhupada better than the "inside" ones

 

and what is following prabhupada if not going back to godhead?

 

again freedom is better... even to teach people that prabhupada's following is not in joining an organization

 

the future is in eliminating boundaries between the branches of chaitanya's tree..... or die

 

and krsna consciousness can't die

[vijay]

Thats very simplistic

'and what is following prabhupada if not going back to godhead?'

 

Ofcourse that is an aim but there is an organisation prabhupada himself created, he created the boundries as you call them proably for a good reason? He asked memebers of ISKCON to follow GBC, and stay united following his books and sytem given by him. These guys many not all be perfect but they are trying. Its been 30 years which is a short space of time and the follwers came from very sinful backgrounds but its stabalising.

 

"again freedom is better... even to teach people that prabhupada's following is not in joining an organization"

 

...Prabhupada created the organisation

 

"the problem is that everything is turned in beaureaucracy and that some "outside" guru are following and teaching prabhupada better than the "inside" ones "

 

i feel some so called "inside ones" are following to a very high standard, and i have a alot of faith in them, if you believe there are other gurus following prabhupada then i wish u best of luck, but please try not to get too bogged down on trying to compare iskcon gurus to other gurus you feel are better, that would seem a bit neophty my guru is better than these gurus etc and you may accidently cause vaishnava apharada.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[theist]

>>However Srila Prabhupada created an organisation for preaching and to set up a community of devotees now the aims of the devotees of this organisation have to be one, the following of prabhupada under his organisation, this is what prabhupada wanted. some unity and oraganisation.<<

 

Of course. But the opposite is occuring around the GBC's current initiating spiritual master program.

 

 

 

>>Therefore the organisation recomends shiksha and diksha from persons following prabhpadas organisation to avoid conflicts of philosophy athority and aims.<<

 

The opposite is happening. Intiations and then reinitiations, mass confusion felt by disciples as they see their "eternal current links" fall down and they have to search for someone else. Wouldn't they have been better having a shiksa relationship with these persons?

 

 

>>We traditionally havent had that in the past,<<

 

Well not since after Prabhupada left.

 

 

>>but now there is a untited effort to preach in an organisation prabhupada has set up for us, that has to be mantained, other gurus outside of ISKCON may not want to work under the GBC that prabhpada set up therefore there is a clash of aims. So you are right that faith should be free flowing but there is also an organisation that aims to keep its memebrs united. It may not be carried out in the bast possible way with many mistakes being made,<<

 

Unity is not dependent upon their current nominated or not opposing someone system. Actually just the opposite is happening.

 

 

>>but if anyone can see a better way of resolving it keeping the aims and athority structure prabhupada has given us then please suggest so.<<

 

People have been making such suggestions since 1978. They are the ones that get labeled heretics and excommunicated.

 

[ancient_paztriot]

"They are the ones that get labeled heretics and excommunicated."

 

Reminds me of something a big shot said recently:

"You're either with us or against us!"

 

[theist]

 

Prabhupäda: Then so siksä and diksä-guru... A siksä-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksä guru. He is a demon. Siksä-guru, diksä-guru means... Sometimes a diksä-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksä-guru. Siksä-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksä-guru. He is not a siksä-guru. He is a rascal.

 

 

740704BG.HON

[sudhaya]

 

You need both, can't have one without the other.

Establish link, pray/chant.

 

Chant to establish link.

 

In the URL which Ghari Prabhu posted before, it says devotional service is performed by the order of

Srimati Radha-who is very dear to KRSNA, she holds the key.

 

The Pure devotee already has established the linking process by the Grace of his Guru and his Guru etc.

 

Freewill to serve sincerely the Guru and Vaishnava's, pleases Guru & Gauranga, and Radha-Krsna. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

All the books of Vaishnava's are geared towards serving that Pure Vaishnava, who he is?

 

Read the books!!!

 

[vijay]

>>However Srila Prabhupada created an organisation for preaching and to set up a community of devotees now the aims of the devotees of this organisation have to be one, the following of prabhupada under his organisation, this is what prabhupada wanted. some unity and oraganisation.<<

 

"Of course. But the opposite is occuring around the GBC's current initiating spiritual master program."

 

No one said its perfect whether you have an acarya system or a body of gurus. The gaudiya math fell in to pieces because of an acarya falldown.

 

 

 

 

>>Therefore the organisation recomends shiksha and diksha from persons following prabhpadas organisation to avoid conflicts of philosophy athority and aims.<<

 

"The opposite is happening. Intiations and then reinitiations, mass confusion felt by disciples as they see their "eternal current links" fall down and they have to search for someone else. Wouldn't they have been better having a shiksa relationship with these persons?"

 

They may of been or may not of been better off that wasnt my point. The point i was addressing is of why iskcon wouldnt say get initiated by someone outside iskcon that would cause confusion as athority philosophy etc differs.

As for who people should get initiated by that ive already gone through many times with 'guest' simple answer people should do their research, read be sinciere and krishna will give us what we need if our desire is pure. Its easy to say by looking at the past 'he should of had a shiksha relationship', yes many devotees that shouldnt of been guru become guru. its happened in the gaudiya math its happened in the paast and will continue to happen, iskcon has to learn form it, which they are undoubtly doing. Yes 40 whole years have passed, but think about it there is no instance in vaishnav history that we know about were such preaching to so mayny different types of people has taken place its a difficult job. Prabhupada should us the way, the organisation is difnately not going to perfectly execute everything it will learn to walk and then run eventually.

 

 

 

 

>>We traditionally havent had that in the past,<<

 

"Well not since after Prabhupada left."

 

yes, wasnt that clear from what i said or are you just clarifying further?

 

>>but now there is a untited effort to preach in an organisation prabhupada has set up for us, that has to be mantained, other gurus outside of ISKCON may not want to work under the GBC that prabhpada set up therefore there is a clash of aims. So you are right that faith should be free flowing but there is also an organisation that aims to keep its memebrs united. It may not be carried out in the bast possible way with many mistakes being made,<<

 

"Unity is not dependent upon their current nominated or not opposing someone system. Actually just the opposite is happening."

 

I dont understand what you mean please clarify

 

>>but if anyone can see a better way of resolving it keeping the aims and athority structure prabhupada has given us then please suggest so.<<

 

'People have been making such suggestions since 1978. They are the ones that get labeled heretics and excommunicated.'

 

Yes i agree, GBC arent perfect and are learning they have apologised to some for past mistakes and are trying to rectify. The reason i said please suggest something is that its easy to attack a system as every system will have its draw back an acarya system a board of gurus or some combination, with every system there is always a problem different structures suit different times and different purposes. Hence the GBC ISKCON structure being a new thing in the gaudiya tradition or in fact most other vaishnav traditions, there is bound to be mistakes as there is no tradition to say how an international organisation should be run with so many different natures and cultures.

 

They are learning from their mistakes and many people will always have their own view on how something should be done especially in retrospect its even more easy to critise.

 

Its not just the guru fall down/nomination thing that has lead devotees to become confused, leave etc thats way too simplistic its just part of the problem which is the result of many previous problems and attitudes which need to be changed.

 

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/varnasrama.html

 

although i dont agree with everything the author has said i do find it widens the issue to a more wholestic level.

 

Hope this helps

 

[Guest guest]

Thats very simplistic

'and what is following prabhupada if not going back to godhead?'

Ofcourse that is an aim

--there's not any other goal in krishna consciousness... whatever organization you are following, if you go back to godhead you please prabhupada

 

Ofcourse that is an aim but there is an organisation prabhupada himself created, he created the boundries as you call them proably for a good reason?

--as seen in the last moments of prabhupada's life in this world, these boundaries had to be very soft... all gaudya math in his wishes is configured more as a federation than separated organizations. BBT had to publish gaudya math books, some godbrothes had to be requested for help and so on..

 

These guys many not all be perfect but they are trying

--life is short, we have to go back to krsna following the best sadhus and gurus available in this world. Other social or politic considerations are not very important

 

 

[theist]

 

The reason i said please suggest something...

 

 

I gave this suggestion on page 3. Please consider it. If it is in error please tell me for my own correction.

 

 

> Better IMO to give up all involvement in the "initiating guru game" and just concentrate on the quality of the shiksa. If it is needed to keep some initiation formality for the sake of proper deity worship that's one thing but to then assume that person is taking full responsibility for taking you back to Krsna's lotus feet when he himself is not there yet is silly.

 

Just concentrating on giving 1st class shiksa to whoever Krsna brings to and then leave the rest to Supersoul. Everything will still go on as it has since the first day of Brahma (and before).<

 

 

[Guest guest]

siksa guru and diksa guru must have the same purity, who teachs can also initiate and who initiates has to be a teacher, and starting to teach the krsna consciousness to someone who accepts voluntarily to learn is in itself an initiation

 

So both kind of gurus must have the skills to bring the disciples back to godhead

 

 

[theist]

Then why keep promoting diksa as the eternal linking of Krsna's representative with a disciple? might be the question.

 

Other than fulfilling some requirement for Deity worship what is the point?

 

 

[gHari]

 

Separates us from Supersoul.

 

Few are materially exhausted. When there are no berries left on the tree we can "Be still and know that I am God".

 

 

[vijay]

These guys many not all be perfect but they are trying

--life is short, we have to go back to krsna following the best sadhus and gurus available in this world. Other social or politic considerations are not very important--

 

I agree you follow who you think is best and il follow who i think is best.

 

Haribol

[vijay]

I agree if someone isnt fully relised then he isnt going to take you there.

And yes i agree diksha is in this day and age is an over rated thing. Shiksha is the most important aspect. Shiksha should be taken form someone you think is high up.

 

I think where we disagree is "give up all involvement" in the "initiating guru game". These devotees give diksha they're diciples can have different shiksha gurus i know many instances where this happens, and its up to the diciple to choose a guru who they feel will take them to krishna (again this is done by shiksha and not diksha). I persnolly feel there are pure devotees in iskcon and some so called gurus in in the "initiating guru game" can take you back to krishna as well as those not in the "initiating guru game".

 

Anyway everyone will have thier different ways of looking at things, i know my opinions are flawed i dont have full knowlede or sincerity, but i hope i can learn from other sincere souls on this bored, i just get annoyed at those who have an agenda and tend to critise only, il have to work on my tolerance levels.

 

Hare Krishna

 

[theist]

Sounds like we are pretty much on the same page vijay. In practice I am no ones disciple so who am I to complain. I just hate to see peoplem wrung through this wringer over and over.

 

Haribol

[vijay]

I know what you mean i'm not initiated myself but went through a period due to certain factors where i thought all the ISKCON gurus are fallen, gaudiya math are iffy etc.

Not seeing things in context due to assocation of immature devotees who thought all gurus are pure these guys are bad etc.

 

But i do think slowly some maurity is coming back and people are begining to see things as they are, as cow dung has hit the fan a few times people hope fully should wake up and smell the barley cup

 

 

[theist]

I know what you mean. All this ____ coming from every angle it seems. "My guy is the real 1st class devotee, your guys are all imposters, or "all those GM types are just envious of Prabhupada, ISKCON only or you hate Prabhupada". Then there there is the "Prabhupada only for the next 10,000 years, everyone else is just a cheating dog " camp.

 

They all have one thing in common, Vaisnava aparadha, and for that reason need to be avoided.

 

Krsna will help us.

[vijay]

 

Glorification of a devotee is never condemened even if the devotee has some defects it should be understood he is on the way to krishna, ive never heard of a devotee that has suffered for glorifying a devotee infact the opposite,

 

vaishnava apharada is condemened by all, even if one feels he is justified, he does it unknowingly or knowingly.

 

Before we start making many judgements on the name of showing people the right way we have to cleanse ourselves first then as you said krishna will show us the right way with out doubt,

 

It seems most people that are less advanced (these are found in all organisations/unorgaisations and make up the majority) try to convert people to thier organisation thier gurus etc through ridiculing other gurus systems etc. The more advanced devotees dont care for this and attract people by speaking about krishna and trying geniunely to help the aspiring devotees keeping them away from politics and on the way back home.