GBC Pure Devotees

[theist]

And I suffer for it. I am one of those non-affiliated(non-committed?) types that needs the association all these different camps offer. But I am denied that because of the aparadha they toss towards each other. It could be argued that since I remain unaffiliated why should I be bothered. But aparadha doesn't stop at some arbitrary sectarian border.

 

If someone criticizes Christ I am gone. Or just wants to jab on the GBC endlessly, or spit at the GM or the ritvik bhaktas. Then you have the oh so spontaneous crowd "man you should have seen them kicking Srila Pra bhu pada"(I am the walrus tune).

 

But we are all responsible for ourselves so we must be very careful.

[Guest guest]

Then why keep promoting diksa as the eternal linking of Krsna's representative with a disciple?

...we can speak of the classic, materialist, emphasis on the surface and formal aspects more than on the real thing, but it is not a big problem, siksa in our philosophy is a real guru because guruship is essentially based on teaching and mercy and not on the ceremony. But again there's no difference, who teachs krsna consciousness giving real shelter to people has not difficulty to give some formal initiation to the disciples if they do not have it from other vaishnavas. So initiation or not a real uttama adhikari present guru is required..

 

Other than fulfilling some requirement for Deity worship what is the point?

...the same.... first of all the deities are to be served by someone who has sufficient consciousness of their reality, that they are real personal manifestation of the supreme personality of godhead and so on. If the disciple is like that, again giving diksa initiation is almost a formality. To be a brahmin means to be conscious that we are brahman, parts and parcels of krsna. If one has realized it there's nothing bad in "marking" these achievements with diksa initiation

 

a personal present teacher is required...... realizing brahman is required........ initiation naturally follows

[Guest guest]

These guys many not all be perfect but they are trying

--life is short, we have to go back to krsna following the best sadhus and gurus available in this world. Other social or politic considerations are not very important--

I agree you follow who you think is best and il follow who i think is best.

 

....mmh.. it seems that you think that the best is basically to follow an organization, then there's to have some formal accepting and naming from a someone recommended by them. In my opinion, basically, for iskcon devotees, the guru is ikscon and the real thing is prabhupada... but he's not present in this world so one has to arrange with someone else

 

this is a big problem because devotees are somewhat ready to accept even teachers not really fit to do the job.. or they are not giving real respect to some real uttama vaishnavas in iskcon considering them half gurus, substitutes................. (RITVIKS????)

[Guest guest]

And yes i agree diksha is in this day and age is an over rated thing. Shiksha is the most important aspect. Shiksha should be taken form someone you think is high up.

...they are the same thing, the songs of vaishnavas and bhagavad gita do not make any difference. A devotee a little more expert, but not fully realized, and not accepted by us as absolute, who gives to us some advice..... he is not a guru, is a senior brother, a friend.. not a guru

 

siksa and diksa are the same thing

[vijay]

"....mmh.. it seems that you think that the best is basically to follow an organization, then there's to have some formal accepting and naming from a someone recommended by them. In my opinion, basically, for iskcon devotees, the guru is ikscon and the real thing is prabhupada... but he's not present in this world so one has to arrange with someone else"

 

No i didnt say one should follow an organisation or see an organisation as guru, i said we should take instruction from someone we consider a bonifide guru. For devotees that want to follow prabhupada they will follow someone who they think is following prabhupada and is self-realised if not they will get cheated. simple.

 

 

"A devotee a little more expert, but not fully realized, and not accepted by us as absolute, who gives to us some advice..... he is not a guru, is a senior brother, a friend.. not a guru"

 

If you take a look at what prabhupada has said below ive posted this somewhere else aswell remember im NOT saying we should take a less qualified guru but he can still be guru.

 

You say "but not fully realized" .. "not a guru"

 

Prabhupada clearly says

"WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED... STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya ... by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION

 

full quote

 

"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED, but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. It is

the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a

certain group or caste, are called hellish."

 

Hope that helps somewhat.

[Guest guest]

For devotees that want to follow prabhupada they will follow someone who they think is following prabhupada and is self-realised if not they will get cheated. simple.

....i agree completely .. and you can also delete "who they think is following prabhupada"... if one's realized he's following prabhupada

 

Prabhupada clearly says

"WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED... STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya ... by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION

...again... who is strictly following is liberated, you cannot follow strictly if you are not liberated... strictly means purely, so if one's is a strict devotee, he's a pure devotee

 

as i have already said the instruction that you are quoting is for judging the purity of devotees by sadhana and not for other reasons

 

it is demonstrated by this: "anyone who.............. discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a certain group or caste, are called hellish."

 

so because his origins, or because he is strictly following or for both reasons ..... a guru has to be pure

[theist]

I always took that quote to mean strict in practice.

Then there is Nectar of Instruction. Best an Uttama but others also although their contribution must necessarily be limited to the level of their own attainment.

 

Why not just accept Prabhupada's vani and others as siksa guru's until and unless Krsna directs you otherwise.

 

There is nothing to prevent Prabhupada's disciples from attaining the topmost level themselves. Krsna will reveal them to the sincere.

[Guest guest]

I always took that quote to mean strict in practice.

...and this is my point.. to be pure, or to be pure because we are following is the same thing

 

Why not just accept Prabhupada's vani and others as siksa guru's until and unless Krsna directs you otherwise.

...the siksa guru is a real guru and the relationship is exactly the same as with the diksa guru or harinama guru. So there's not to listen to some siksa guru waiting for the diksa, when we have found a real pure teacher we have simply to surrender and listen. When he'll decide, the guru, traditionally, will give us a new name and maybe, after some time, he will give us the sacred thread and gayatri mantra. A siksa guru is not simply a little more expert practitioner who answers to some our doubts, this is a friend, not a guru.

 

There is nothing to prevent Prabhupada's disciples from attaining the topmost level themselves

...right, but the topmost level is to take shelter in a pure present uttama bhakta... why think that following prabhupada means something different than "tadd viddhi pranipatena.."?... His Divine Grace has explained and preached this verse, following him means following his instructions.. and one most important instruction is to pray krsna to send us a personal guru

 

Krsna will reveal them to the sincere.

...through the pure devotee.. the spiritual master is the one who reveals krsna to us, not an obstacle between us and krsna

 

 

om ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya

caksur unmilitam yena tasmai sri-gurave namah

I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him.

 

very simple.. no guru, no torch, no krsna vision

 

[theist]

Why not just accept Prabhupada's vani and others as siksa guru's until and unless Krsna directs you otherwise.

 

the siksa guru is a real guru and the relationship is exactly the same as with the diksa guru or harinama guru. So there's not to listen to some siksa guru waiting for the diksa, when we have found a real pure teacher we have simply to surrender and listen.

 

 

That seems to be contradicted here: Prabhupäda: Then so siksä and diksä-guru... A siksä-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksä guru. He is a demon. Siksä-guru, diksä-guru means... Sometimes a diksä-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksä-guru. Siksä-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksä-guru. He is not a siksä-guru. He is a rascal.740704BG.HON

 

 

 

 

There is nothing to prevent Prabhupada's disciples from attaining the topmost level themselves

 

 

right, but the topmost level is to take shelter in a pure present uttama bhakta... why think that following prabhupada means something different than "tadd viddhi pranipatena.."?... His Divine Grace has explained and preached this verse, following him means following his instructions.. and one most important instruction is to pray krsna to send us a personal guru

 

 

I am sure Prabhupada's disciples would find that highly offensive. Their guru is 1st class and present. Did all of Bhaktisiddhanta's disciples run out and find new pure and PRESENT guru's for themselves thinking they had no more connection to Bhaktisiddhanta since he left his body?

 

I rest my case.

 

 

 

very simple.. no guru, no torch, no krsna vision

 

 

Close. It goes more like this. No Krsna. no guru, no torch, no krsna vision.

 

You think you are so wise you can find guru without Krsna's revelation? You can't even chew your food or digest it without the ok of Supersoul but you can recognize a transcendental personality. Right.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[Guest guest]

------

the siksa guru is a real guru and the relationship is exactly the same as with the diksa guru or harinama guru. So there's not to listen to some siksa guru waiting for the diksa, when we have found a real pure teacher we have simply to surrender and listen.

------

That seems to be contradicted here: Prabhupäda: Then so siksä and diksä-guru... A siksä-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksä guru. He is a demon. Siksä-guru, diksä-guru means... Sometimes a diksä-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksä-guru. Siksä-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksä-guru. He is not a siksä-guru. He is a rascal.740704BG.HON

•••where's contraddiction? saying that the relationship is the same does not means that siksa guru can blaspheme the diksa guru (or the opposite)

 

I am sure Prabhupada's disciples would find that highly offensive. Their guru is 1st class and present.

••••prabhupada is present in a dimension that we cannot reach and where we cannot interact with him, so we have to take shelter in a guru that it is easy to relationate with. I do not understand what is the offence. If prabhupada is 1st class, his instructions are 1st class and they are to be strictly followed

 

 

Did all of Bhaktisiddhanta's disciples run out and find new pure and PRESENT guru's for themselves thinking they had no more connection to Bhaktisiddhanta since he left his body?

••••••the tradition is that in gaudya vaishnava sampradaya a devotee, after the diksa guru is gone, takes shelter in a siksa guru. If it is possible to have siksa gurus when the diksa guru is visible in this world, surely there's the need when the diksa is no more there. Again, diksa guru does not die when he disappears... but we are not realized and we need to continue our devotion under a personal guidance. This tradition is not developed in iskcon only because some years after prabhupada's disappearance it is started the famous esclusivist politic against gaudya math, but we know that many good and faithful prabhupada disciples have taken siksa gurus between gaudya math acharyas. So it is not a new thing, it is traditional and recommended

 

Close. It goes more like this. No Krsna. no guru, no torch, no krsna vision.

You think you are so wise you can find guru without Krsna's revelation?

••••hare krishna

[theist]

Thanks for the chat. You get the last word.

 

Hare Krsna

[vijay]

This post is similar to what ive posted somewhere else proably to u.

 

"A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED, but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION. It is

the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a

certain group or caste, are called hellish."

 

 

Okay let me explain again you are saying you have to be liberated to follow strictly.

 

You say

"...again... who is strictly following is liberated, you cannot follow strictly if you are not liberated... strictly means purely, so if one's is a strict devotee, he's a pure devotee"

 

Look at what prabhupada says its very clear if you look and understand please try once more if you dont accept prabhupada and have your own version then thats fair enough.

 

"..but there are persons WHO ARE LESS QUALIFIED or NOT LIBERATED, but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION."

 

see... "NOT LIBERATED.. but STILL CAN ACT AS GURU and acharya by STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION."

 

See my friend NOT LIBERATED but still STRICTLY FOLLOWING the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION = guru & acarya

 

Not your definition that to be follwing strictly you have to be liberated thus guru has to be liberated. Maybe you just dont want to see thats fair enough.

 

Can it be any clearer?

 

"as i have already said the instruction that you are quoting is for judging the purity of devotees by sadhana and not for other reasons"

 

I think what prabhupada is saying is clear and dont need an interpretation from you why he is saying it, thank you anyway.

 

Anyway like theist im signing off this discussion. Hope you well in your spirtual life.

 

Haribol

 

[Guest guest]

Read books SP person has nice best spiritual taste. This taste bring person in rigth plase and for right guru siksa or diksa.

[Guest guest]

jay vijay. /images/graemlins/smile.gif