Guru tattva

[anadi]

Adau duSTa guru prAptih / pUtanA stanya sAyini

VAtyA rUpa kutarkas tu / tRNAvarta itIritaH

 

Sri kRSNa saMhitA 8.14

 

Persons who are on the path of attachment (ragAnuga) should avoid the first obstacle, accepting a bogus guru, by discussing PutanA’s arrival in Vraja in the guise of a nurse.

There are two types of gurus- antaraNga, or internal, and bahiraNga, or external.

 

The living entity who is situated in samadhi is his own antaraNga guru. SB. 11.7.20

One who accepts argument as his guru and who learns the process of worship from such a guru is said to have accepted the shelter of a bogus guru.

When argument poses as nourishment for the living entities’ constitutional duties, this may be compared with PutanA’s falsely posing as a nurse…

 

The external guru is he from the science of worship is learned. One who knows the proper path of attachment and who instructs his disciples according to their qualification is a sad guru, or eternal guru. One who does not know the path of attachment yet instructs others in this path or who knows that path but instructs his disciples without considering their qualification is a bogus guru and must be given up,

 

[anadi]

Gadadhar wishes to receive mantra again

 

One day, Srila Gadadhar Pandit Goswami asked Mahaprabhu if he could hear his initiation mantra from Him. He said,

 

" Ever since I repeated my izTa-mantra to someone, I have been unable to concentrate when I chant. Please repeat the mantra to me, then my mind will be calmed."

 

Mahaprabhu answered,

 

"You already have a mantra-upa-dikSa guru. Be careful, otherwise you will become an offender to him. Everything I have is yours, even My life, what to speak of the mantra. But as long as your guru is alive it is improper for Me to repeat it to you."

 

(Chaitanya Bhagavata 3.10.23-26)

[anadi]

Gadadhar wishes to receive mantra again

 

Gadadhar answered, saying, "He isn't here. Please do it in his place."

Mahaprabhu replied: "Destiny will bring your guru Vdyanidhi to you."

The omniscient Mahaprabhu continued, " Sri Pundarika Vidyanidhi will be coming to Puri to see Me and will be here in ten days." And that is what came to pass.

Mahaprabhu became ecstatic, crying, "Father has come! Father has come!" Gadadhar went to Vidyanidhi upon his arrival.

 

Gadadhar Deva asked Premanidhi to again initiate him in the izta-mantra, which he lovingly did. How can I sufficiently glorify Sri Pundarika Vidyanidhi, who has a loving disciple like Gadadhar Pandit!

 

(Chaitanya Bhagavata 3.10.79-80)

[anadi]

Srila Jiva Gosvami examines guru tattva in Bhakti Sandarbha.

He says that there are two kinds of guru

SarAga – with material attachments – their influence is not enduring

NirAga – without material attachments .

 

A guru who is

- parama bhagavata bhakta (topmost devotee)

- adept in relishing bhakti rasa

- evoking spiritual emotions in others

- capable of extracting the essence of any thing (saragrAhi)

is known as nirAga vakta.

 

He than says that there are three types of guru

1. Sravana guru, who gives instructions on

- bhaktas

- bhakti

- bhagavat –tattva

2. zikSa guru is one that out of many competent Sravana gurus

gives instructions on bhajana which is specifically suitable to the bhava of his disciple

 

atha Sravana guru bhajana Sikza guroh

prayakam ekatvam iti tathaivAha

 

from Bhakti Sandarbha. Ann.206

which says that

the Sravana and bhajana Sikza guru are usually the same.

 

3. DikSa guru (mantra guru) is one who

- gives a mantra for worshiping according the rules of the scriptures

- should posses all symptoms of a mahat puruSa sad guru

- has direct experience and realization of bhagavan

- is well conversant in the conclusions of the Sastra

- is expert in expounding the conclusions of the acaryas

 

There is only one dikSa guru.

Normally the dikSa guru is also the bhajana Sikza guru. If not, one should accept a sad Sikza guru.

 

If guru

- has become inimical to vaiSnavas, Sastra, bhakti

- has become engrossed in sense enjoyment

- is lacking discrimination on what is duty and not

- is foolish

- is not following Suddha (pure) bhakti

should be given up.

One should take dikSa again from vaiSnava sad guru.

[Guest guest]

many thanks...

[Guest guest]

tyaktvA sva-dharmamM caranNAmbujaM harer

bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi

yatra kva vAbhadram abhUd amuszya kimM

ko vArtha Apto 'bhajatāAM sva-dharmatahH

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.17

 

One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand, a nondevotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything.

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami says in Bhakti Sandarbha.

that there are two kinds of guru

SarAga – with material attachments – their influence is not enduring

NirAga – without material attachments .

 

Both are gurus.

So there is no harm if someone has a guru with material attachements.

According one's qualification, one gets the association one is prepared for.

But if that guru is pretending to be that what he is not, and tries to manipulate and restrict his advanced disciples to get a more elevated association, than he must be given up.

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada says

 

"One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead.

 

It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the SAstric injunctions. Sri Jiva GosvAmI advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

 

 

[anadi]

by anAdi kRSNa dAsa

[Govindaram]

 

Prabhupada: "One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead.

 

 

 

This is great, I don't want to spoil the tone of this Thread, but this statement by Prabhupada says to me, that anybody who goes against the Paramapara is basically Mayavadi/Sahajiya.

 

If guru

- has become inimical to vaiSnavas, Sastra, bhakti

- has become engrossed in sense enjoyment

- is lacking discrimination on what is duty and not

- is foolish

- is not following Suddha (pure) bhakti

should be given up.

One should take dikSa again from vaiSnava sad guru.

 

 

 

Prabhuji there are many disciple who have Guru who have fallen temp, so does this mean the Diksa was Not bona-fide, I don't think it's so simple. What do you say?

[Guest guest]

Prabhuji there are many disciple who have Guru who have fallen temp, so does this mean the Diksa was Not bona-fide, I don't think it's so simple. What do you say?

 

...no, diksa was not bonafide, because the guru was non in connection with krsna, so he could not connect others

 

 

but the main problem is that we must serve krsna through a pure devotee, if we are not following a pure devotee, actually, we are not serving

[Govindaram]

 

no, diksa was not bonafide, because the guru was non in connection with krsna, so he could not connect others

 

 

 

'Temp' falldown, 'Temp' means I have fallen, but will be ok again,

 

I don't think it means the Diksa was Not bona-fide, I have read in Harinama Cintamani that if your Guru Maharaja falls down you may accept another, it doesn't suggest anything about Diksa Not being bona-fide as far as I can see. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[theist]

 

that we must serve krsna through a pure devotee,

 

 

What is meant by "through"

[Guest guest]

I don't think it means the Diksa was Not bona-fide, I have read in Harinama Cintamani that if your Guru Maharaja falls down you may accept another, it doesn't suggest anything about Diksa Not being bona-fide as far as I can see.

 

who is fallen, was fallen also in the moment when he gave diksa... the guru is one who sees krsna and gives this vision to the sincere disciples. And who sees krsna never falls because there's nothing more beautiful to see in the spiritual and material world

[Guest guest]

that we cannot approach directly krsna to give service

 

only radhe serves krsna

 

and the spiritual master is an assistant of the gopis serving radhe in her conjugal pastimes with sri krsna

 

nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai

ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya

tatrati-daksyad ati-vallabhasya

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam

 

WORD FOR WORD

 

nikunja-yunah--of Radha and Krsna; rati-- (of) conjugal love; keli--(of) pastimes; siddhyai--for the perfection; ya ya-- whatever, alibhih--by the gopis; yuktih--arrangements; apeksanya--desirable; tatra--in that connection; ati-daksyat--because of being very expert; ati-vallabhasya--who is very dear; vande--I offer obeisances; guroh--of my spiritual master; sri-carana-aravindam--unto the lotus feet.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The spiritual master is very dear, because he is expert in assisting the gopis, who at different times make different tasteful arrangements for the perfection of Radha and Krsna's conjugal loving affairs within the groves of Vrndavana. I offer my most humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master.

 

[anadi]

According Srila Jiva Gosvami guru has three different functions.

But still many consider that guru has only one function: Sravan guru, and they make a tremendous propaganda in this direction, disregarding our tattva acarya, Srila Jiva Gosvami.

 

By the mercy of my Gurudeva, and all guru parampara, I will try to speak about the second function of guru: dikSa, as this subject has been delineated through rupAnuga guru varaga and Sastra.

 

First, what is dikSa?

divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saNKzayam

tasmat dikzeti sA proktA diSikais tatttva kovidaiH

 

That which bestow transcendental knowledge -divyam jJAnaM yato dadyAt

and destroys sins, the seed of sins and destroys avidyA to the root is called dikSa by tattva learned authourities.

 

The matter of fact dikSa is the process by which the guru cause Radha Krishna to be seen in the heart of the disciple

 

What says Srila RaghunAtha dAsa GosvAmi in his first Sloka on manaH SikzA

 

gurau goSThe goSTAlayizu sujane bhUsura-gaNe

sva-mantre Sri namni vraja-nava-yuva-dvandva-Sarane

sadA dambhaM hitvA kuru ratim apUrvAm atitarA-

maye svAntar bhrAtaS caTubhir abhiyAce dhrita-padaH

 

aye bhratah - O brother; svantah - mind;

dhrta –padah holding your feet; abhiyace I am praying;

catubhih - with sweet words; sada - always;

hitvtA- giving up; dambham- pride; atitaram- exceedingly;

kuru - adopt; apurvam- unprecedented; ratim- spiritual attachment; gurau- in Sri Gurudeva;

gosthe- in Vraja-dhama; gostalayisu - in the Vraja-dhama; sujane - in the Vaisnavas; bh.sura-gaNe - in the brAhmaNas;

sva-mantre- in one’s own dikSA-mantras; Sri-nAmni- in Sri harinAma;

vraja-nava-yuva-dvandva-SaraNe (and) in the shelter of the new youthful couple of Vraja.

 

So, one should also pray with sweet words to his mind to adopt unprecedented and sublime spiritual attachment for the diksa mantras he received from his gurudeva.

 

Would that be not very important, than Srila RaghunAtha dAsa GosvAmi would have not mention it quite in the beginning of His Teachings to the mind.

[Guest guest]

 

that we cannot approach directly krsna to give service

 

only radhe serves krsna

 

 

 

Then what is the difference between Krishna and Ramachandra? One wife, one lover, all others are "not allowed".

[vanamali]

I think it is helpful for some to follow the path of serving radha alone

 

For others it is different

 

I think it is significant that in Bhagavatam Krishna is having 16,000+ wives. It is also said that the # of gopis is 16,000+. This indicates to me that Krishna never turns anyone away who is seeking His grace.

 

This isn't supposed to set an example for people to follow. Rama was the perfect man in this resepct. One wife, one lover, that's it. Krishna is the perfect god in this respect- anyone who comes to Him is accepted.

 

For some of those who are addicted to Krishna, the thought that He cannot be served directly is absolutely unthinkable.

 

But for other Krishna bhaktas it is helpful to think, okay, Radha makes Him happy, so give Him Radha. Her service is perfect and will make Him happy, and we can have a part of it by helping Her serve Him. In this way, one could also say "Only Radhe serves Krishna."

 

I think both of these are very well thought-out positions.

[Guest guest]

--> For some of those who are addicted to Krishna, the thought that He cannot be served directly is absolutely unthinkable.

 

Thank you!!! Ya! You can count me in.

[Guest guest]

Then what is the difference between Krishna and Ramachandra? One wife, one lover, all others are "not allowed".

 

no why? everyone is allowed!! but trough the shakti

 

[Guest guest]

---> no why? everyone is allowed!! but trough the shakti

 

what if somebody wants to marry Krishna?

[vanamali]

A lot of people do- remember Krishna is the husband of all the gopis (as per their request in Katyaayani vrat), as well as all the wives in Dwaraka. Not just Radhaji but also Sridevi (Rukmini) and Bhudevi (Satyabhama), and thousands of others. Who knows how many births it may take to find Him? Even the gopis who are perfect devotees, and were rishis during Ramavatara, had to undertake Katyaayani vrat to get Him as their husband. Rukmini was under extreme duress when she wrote her letter to Krishna. We must bear this varaha tapam with patience.

 

Until that time it is our joy to serve Krishna and all His friends/devotees (including Radharani, Hanumanji, Durga Mata, All the gopis, Mahalakshmi, Bhudevi, Sri Maha Ganapati, Saraswati Maa, and all the other devis and devas down the line as well as our gurujis, acharyas, mother and father, guests, and other devotees.

 

This is my humble thought on the matter. Please do not feel I'm trying to obligate anyone to agree with me. It's just that if one's whole sadhana is centered around Krishna and trying to perfect this kind of relationship with Him, one cannot change the course, no matter how foolish or crazy it may seem.

[Guest guest]

---> Who knows how many births it may take to find Him?

 

That is not the question. It may take 1000000 trillion lives, but the choice should not be closed!!!

 

---> Until that time it is our joy to serve Krishna and all His friends/devotees (including Radharani, Hanumanji, Durga Mata, All the gopis, Mahalakshmi, Bhudevi, Sri Maha Ganapati, Saraswati Maa, and all the other devis and devas down the line as well as our gurujis, acharyas, mother and father, guests, and other devotees.

 

This is also OK. Serving Gods, gurujis, devotees OK. Why wifes of Krishna serve Krishna's friend like Sudama. But why keep somebody away from Krishna when she wants Him as husband. Otherwise all this philosophy and religion is useless if Krishna is not obtained. If somebody is wanting to be wife of Krishna, then there is desire to serve Krishna as wife -- this is direct service. So why cannot somebody want someday to serve Krishna directly as wife? If not then this whole drama is useless!!!

 

---> It's just that if one's whole sadhana is centered around Krishna and trying to perfect this kind of relationship with Him, one cannot change the course, no matter how foolish or crazy it may seem.

 

Yes, I do not want to change how I think of Krishna!!!

[Guest guest]

what if somebody wants to marry Krishna?

 

simply it is not possible, we have to serve not to marry

[vanamali]

Anyway, it's different for everybody, guestji.

 

Whether such a Union is possible or not, wanting that relationship is the connection for some.

 

For others even in the bhav of conjugal love they are so selfless that they only think of serving and not having direct relationship.

 

In this case I am a greedy, greedy, selfish person. I want to serve Krishna directly, to become joyful by seeing Him derive joy from my service, to find joy in seeing His joy in my joyfulness at seeing His joyfulness, and so on compounding to infinity.

 

I have not been taught that this is wrong, but if it is wrong from your point of view, then by all means, DO NOT accept it! Don't mix devotional sentiments. I will keep my sadhana, and you stick to yours.

 

Lovingly yours,

Foolish Vanamali

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

 

[vanamali]

Futhermore I wish all you Guestjis would please register a Username so I can remember you all, and keep you straight.

 

~Vanamali

 

 

[Guest guest]

---> simply it is not possible, we have to serve not to marry

 

Do you think this scares me. If Krishna wants then we will sell our bodies in the market....but we will not stop thinking Him as our husband....