What 'free will' do we really have ?

[krsna]

 

 

Until the spirit soul is liberated is it the modes that 'do' everything?

 

What 'free will' do we really have to determine our progress towards full Krishna Consciousness?

 

What I'm looking for is the most succinct and pertinent quote on the subject of the minute independence 'free will'of the living entity under the control of the 3 modes of material nature.

 

Do the souls in Krsnaloka have 'free will' or are they eternal slaves of Krishna's love?

[gHari]

Choice: enjoy material nature or be enjoyed by Sri Krsna. That is the simple answer.

 

I may still find it, but somewhere Srila Prabhupada states that we achieve ultimate free will when we surrender to the desire of Sri Krsna. It is ultimately His free will that we enjoy. But here is an interesting taste from an early handwritten Prabhupada essay on the Caitanya Caritamrita where we learn that it takes two free wills to tango:<blockquote>As the powerful sun can purify, by its glowing rays, all kinds of impurities of filthy matter, similarly the all spirit Personality of Godhead can purify all material qualities in the person of the attracted. Even if one is attracted by Godhead in the mode of material lust, such attraction is converted into spiritual love of Godhead by His Grace. Similarly if one is affimated(?) by fear or animosity, he also becomes purified by the spiritual attraction of the Lord. The thing is that the Lord and the living being both are spiritual identities. God is great and the living entity is small. But both of them being individual persons, it requires an exchange of free will for reciprocal attraction. As soon as this exchange of free will takes place the great spiritual Being at once attracts the small making him free from all material bondage.</blockquote>As far as being slaves of love, perhaps it is better to realize that we are love. That loving relationship is who we are - not what we are, but who we are. It is most natural and there is nothing else; we are deprived of nothing we want by being consumed by this love and allowed to respond to it constantly.

 

Commentary by SrIla Bhaktivinoda ThAkura in Tattva-viveka:<blockquote><center>cid-vastu jadato bhinnaM

svatantrecchAtmAkaM sadA

praviStam api mAyAyAM

sva-svarUpaM na tat tyajet

</center>

cid-vastu-spirit; jadato-from matter; bhinnam-different; svatantra-independent; icchA-desire; AtmAkam-self; sadA-always; praviStam-entered; api-also; mAyAyAm-in illusion; sva-svarUpam-own nature; na-not; tat-that; tyajet-abandons.

 

Spirit is different from matter. Spirit always has free will. Even when it enters the world of illusions, spirit never loses its nature.

 

What is the nature of spirit? Many times that question is asked. In this material world one does not find a perfect or complete answer. Even though the soul is spiritual, it has now forgotten its own nature. Shackled in MAyA's prison, the soul finds it hard to give a clear answer about its own nature. The soul's nature is to be a tiny particle of spirit. Although that nature is pervertedly reflected in the material world, the soul never really abandons its own nature. First this question may be asked: If the spirit soul is different from matter, then the spirit soul must be different from all material things. What is that difference?" First one should seek the answer to that question. Many qualities may be seen in material things, but free will is never seen in them. Neither is consciousness ever seen in them. Unless the soul is completely restricted in its activities, these two qualities are not covered. They remain manifest. Qualities like heat and liquidity may be seen in material elements like fire and water, but the liquidity of water is not a sign of free will present in the water.The water is not liquid of its own accord. Many different material elements may be considered, but none of them acts by its own free will. For example, we do not see that fire acts of its own free will. However, in spiritual beings, in souls, even though they may be covered by the material bodies of lowly species like worms and ants, we see free will is present. Walking and walking, an ant considers which way he should go, and then he walks on that path. This power of the ant to think and to choose are the signs of free will. We do not see these signs in inert matter. We see them only in spirit, in living beings. Therefore consciousness and free will are part of the nature of spirit. Of this there is no doubt. In conclusion, consciousness, free will, bliss, and the idea It is I." are all parts of the nature of spirit. Even when it enters the material world of five elements, the spirit soul never abandons that nature.</blockquote>From a Study Guide for the Gita by Subhananda das:<blockquote>Because bhakti (devotional service) cannot be forcibly imposed but must, rather, be a voluntary and natural expression of the soul, God endows the jIva with free will. By improper exercise of his minute free will, however, the soul may choose to ignore God's predominance. So choosing, he is placed in the service of God's own "inferior" or "external" energy (mAyA), which illusions the jIva, causing him to forget his eternal, spiritual identity as God's servant. There are consequently two possible statuses for the soul--the "liberated" state (free from the influence of mAyA) and the "conditioned" state (illusioned by mAyA). Thus the jIva is the "marginal" energy of God, being subject, potentially, to both of God's energies--matter and spirit.</blockquote>Here is an interesting discussion summarizing religion and its use of free will:<blockquote>HayagrIva: Origen believed that it is through divine grace and man's free will working together that the individual soul attains perfection, and perfection consists of attaining a personal relationship with the Infinite Person.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. That is called Bhakti-mArga. The Absolute Truth is manifested in three features: Brahman, ParamAtmA, and BhagavAn. BhagavAn is the personal feature, and ParamAtmA feature may be compared with the Holy Ghost when situated in everyone's heart. And Brahman feature, everywhere. By His energy He is present everywhere. So the perfection, highest perfection of spiritual life, is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the person, personal feature of the Lord, and engages himself, the living entity engages himself in His service. Then he is situated in his original, constitutional position, and he is eternally happy and blissful.

 

HayagrIva: Just as man's free will brought about his fall, man's free will can also bring about his salvation. By becoming detached from matter, man can return to God, but this detachment from matter is brought about by the assistance of the Christ.

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. That is our conception also, that the fallen soul is rotating within this material world, within this universe, up and down in different forms of life, and in his developed condition of understanding he is enlightened by God as it is instructed in the Bhagavad-gItA, and the spiritual master gives him full enlightenment. Then what he says, the perfection?

</blockquote>

[krsna]

Thank you for these excellent quotes:

quote :-------

 

As far as being slaves of love, perhaps it is better to realize that we are love. That loving relationship is who we are. It is most natural and there is nothing else; we are deprived of nothing we want by being consumed by this love and allowed to respond to it constantly.

 

----------------

 

"We are love"? "That loving relationship is who we are"?

 

Am I prema?

Am I rasa?

 

I thought that "I am pure spirit exchanging rasa or prema with Sri Krishna?"

 

Or are you saying : in the ultimate expression of prema (bhakti-rasa) the jiva becomes totally consumed in rasa ,so much so that his jiva-hood(consciousness) becomes indistinguishable from rasa itself;hence the phrase'we are love'?

 

Is that correct gHariji ?

 

 

[gHari]

Out walking, thinking about that phrase, I wanted to add "- not what we are, but who we are" as soon as I plugged back into the Matrix.

 

Maybe I'll change it anyway, since not everyone will stumble over the ambiguity as gracefully as you did, krsna.

 

The three eternals that we always have are the self (what), our devotional loving relationship (who), and Sri Krsna (why). That is ours forever; even now - eternal life, life everlasting. That is ours eternally; even now, the path and the goal.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

[Guest guest]

There is no such thing as free will. The realisation of this is moksa.

All our actions are determined by our surroundings, the illusion of independent self tricks us into believing we have free will.

For example, a rat in a scientists maze reaches a junction, its choice is limited by its circumstance of physical surroundings. It can turn left, it can turn right, it can go back, or it can sit down. It believes it has a choice but in reality that choice is dictated by the scientist's design. No matter what the situation there is no freedom of choice because our choices are finite and dependent upon the situation that we find ourselves in. Once this is realised it is easy to live life without desire, actionless action, we act on our instincts with out attachment to our action... this is moksa.

 

tat tvam asi