Matter Has No Form

[ancient_paztriot]

Hayagriva dasa: For Aquinas, God is the only single essence that consist of pure form. He felt that matter is only a potential, and, in order to be real, must assume a certain shape or form. In other words, the living entity has to acquire an individual form in order to actualize himself. When matter unites with form, the form gives individuality and personality.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Matter in itself has no form; it is the spirit soul that has form. Matter is a covering for the actual form of the spirit soul. Because the soul has form, matter appears to ahve form. Matter is like cloth that is cut to fit the body. In the spiritual world, however, everything has form: God and the spirit souls.

.................

 

Hayagriva dasa: So the soul has a form that is incorruptible. Is this not also the form of the material body?

 

Srila Prabhupada: The material body is an imitation. It is false. Because the spiritual body has form, the material body, which is a coating, takes on form. As I have already explained, a cloth originally has no form, but a tailor can cut the cloth to fit a form. In actuality, this material form is illusory. It orginally has no form. It takes on form for a while, and when it becomes old and useless, it retruns to its original position. In Bhagavad-gita (18.61), the body is compared to a machine. The soul has his own form, but he is given a machine, the body, which he uses to wander throughout the universe, attempting to enjoy himself.

[Guest guest]

So far as I know, matter does have form. It is temporary and lifeless but not formless. If matter were formeless, we wouldn't have a well structured universe(s).

 

 

Hayagriva dasa: For Aquinas, God is the only single essence that consist of pure form. He felt that matter is only a potential, and, in order to be real, must assume a certain shape or form. In other words, the living entity has to acquire an individual form in order to actualize himself. When matter unites with form, the form gives individuality and personality.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Matter in itself has no form; it is the spirit soul that has form. Matter is a covering for the actual form of the spirit soul. Because the soul has form, matter appears to ahve form. Matter is like cloth that is cut to fit the body. In the spiritual world, however, everything has form: God and the spirit souls.

.................

 

Hayagriva dasa: So the soul has a form that is incorruptible. Is this not also the form of the material body?

 

Srila Prabhupada: The material body is an imitation. It is false. Because the spiritual body has form, the material body, which is a coating, takes on form. As I have already explained, a cloth originally has no form, but a tailor can cut the cloth to fit a form. In actuality, this material form is illusory. It orginally has no form. It takes on form for a while, and when it becomes old and useless, it retruns to its original position. In Bhagavad-gita (18.61), the body is compared to a machine. The soul has his own form, but he is given a machine, the body, which he uses to wander throughout the universe, attempting to enjoy himself.

[Guest guest]

 

Hayagriva dasa: For Aquinas, God is the only single essence that consist of pure form. He felt that matter is only a potential, and, in order to be real, must assume a certain shape or form. In other words, the living entity has to acquire an individual form in order to actualize himself. When matter unites with form, the form gives individuality and personality.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Matter in itself has no form; it is the spirit soul that has form. Matter is a covering for the actual form of the spirit soul. Because the soul has form, matter appears to ahve form. Matter is like cloth that is cut to fit the body. In the spiritual world, however, everything has form: God and the spirit souls.

.................

 

Hayagriva dasa: So the soul has a form that is incorruptible. Is this not also the form of the material body?

 

Srila Prabhupada: The material body is an imitation. It is false. Because the spiritual body has form, the material body, which is a coating, takes on form. As I have already explained, a cloth originally has no form, but a tailor can cut the cloth to fit a form. In actuality, this material form is illusory. It orginally has no form. It takes on form for a while, and when it becomes old and useless, it retruns to its original position. In Bhagavad-gita (18.61), the body is compared to a machine. The soul has his own form, but he is given a machine, the body, which he uses to wander throughout the universe, attempting to enjoy himself.

 

Can you please post the reference to the exact source of this statement by Srila Prabhupada?

I don't know about everyone else, but I insist that anything that is attributed to "Srila Prabhupada said" must have a reference other than some unauthenticated reference about something "Prabhuapda said".

 

This could be something that some devotee is posting from MEMORY as opposed to something that can be verified on a tape or other such verifiable source as coming directly from Srila Prabhupada.

 

If you can post the authentic verifiable reference as to the source of such "quotes" then please don't post them.

[theist]

 

So far as I know, matter does have form. It is temporary and lifeless but not formless. If matter were formeless, we wouldn't have a well structured universe(s).

 

Of the eternal there is no cessation. Of the non-existent there is no endurance.

 

Like a hallucination one has while in a fever. We cannot say there was no hallucination, but when the fever breaks where is it now? So the material world has it's existence in a similar way.

 

We have no need to try and negate the idea of material form just the assumption that it is real as displayed. It is all based on our perception. When we look in a mirror we take our human form to be a solid structure and therefore real. But that is a very superfical perception on our part. If we look deeper we see the skin is not a solid one peice structure at all. It is made up of cells that are constantly dying off and replaced by new ones. And those cells themselves are just a collection of molecules that change position at every moment either entering the cell of being sent out from the cell. There is no endurance.

 

The form we see is based on our perception. An ordinary man sees the body in one way while a biologist may see something different and a physicist may envision it as a collection of even smaller subatomic particles.

 

Some say that between the gross physical collection of matter and the subtle astral plane lies the "plane of forces" where the very subtle forces of matter are visible to one who has this ability to see. So a metaphyscian may even see just the forces at play while not perceiving the so-called form at all.

 

We can't say that any of them are wrong. But we can say that none of them is perceiving all the various interplays of matter at work.

 

But this dismantling itself does not offer the full picture either. Buddha said, (so they say) " I see the petals..I see the stem...I see the leaf ... but I see no lotus flower." The lotus flower exists only as our perception of the combination of the petals, leafs and stem. So in this way they deconstruct everything down to a state of absolute void.

 

But this is incomplete. We see the lotus flower and can offer it to Krsna and accept it back as prasadam meaning that Krsna also saw it as a lotus flower, if not they how could He accept it?

 

So Vaisnavas complete the whole circle. From lotus flower through no lotus flower and back to lotus flower again without denying the truth of any of it. Apparent contradictions and all.

 

So the individual perceptions of forms in the material world have no real existence because they have no endurance. But when what we call matter is perceived correctly we see that it is also eternal because it is one of Krsna's energies and therefore nondifferent from Himself.

 

I read where BR Sridhar Maharaja referred to Krsna as being the greatest hypnotist. A man on stage under the influence of the hypnotist may conceive of himself as a dog and bark loudly while the audience laughs. The hynotist has altered his perception of himself as a human to a dog. He may even see others as dogs until the hynotic spell is lifted. This is our position under maya's spell. We take the unreal for real and vice versa. We take the formless and perceive form according to how maya tells us to accept it.

 

Our position is a million times more tragic than a man who thinks he is a dog sad to say.

[gHari]

Those quotes are from "The Quest for Enlightenment" (new compilation 1998)

 

The Quest for Enlightenment

 

[Articles from Back to Godhead magazine]

His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAda

 

Introduction

 

Sanskrit words have become part of our everyday speech. For example, almost no one would need to crack a dictionary to understand such phrases as "media guru,political pundit," or "bad karma."

 

Another Sanskrit word that has established itself in the mainstream of our language is "dharma." Fans of Beat-generation writer Jack Kerouac might recall his novel Dharma Bums, and in 1997 American television viewers saw the debut of a popular sitcom with a flighty new-age heroine named Dharma.

 

But what is dharma, really? If we consult the teachings of the sages of ancient India, we find there are two main meanings-nature and duty.

 

Let's first consider nature. Everything has its particular nature, a unique and essential quality that defines its existence. In this sense we can say that the dharma of sugar is its sweetness, or the dharma of water is its ability to quench our thirst with its pure taste.

 

Each of us has an essential nature, too, and if we live in harmony with our essential nature, or dharma, we feel deeply satisfied. But as human beings, what is our dharma? According to the timeless wisdom of the Vedas, our dharma is a characteristic not of our body but of our soul-the spark of divine consciousness within. Each of us has this spark within. It emanates from the Supreme Soul, KRSNa, who may be likened to a cosmic fire, the source of all the divine sparks that are our very selves.

 

And the dharma of each spark of divine consciousness is to dance in harmony around the central fire, KRSNa, the original supreme personality. We are all unique, individual, and personal manifestations of KRSNa, but our dharma is to recognize our source, to celebrate our eternal connection with Him through loving service. In short, our dharma, as eternally conscious selves, is to love and serve KRSNa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

In material consciousness we lose sight of our real nature. We forget our source and connection with KRSNa. And our original dharma of selfless service to Him transforms into the false dharma of competitive selfishness. Because we lose touch with our true dharma, we experience frustration and dissatisfaction.

 

Dharma: The Way of Transcendence guides us back to our true nature, our original position as loving servants of KRSNa.

 

Another meaning of dharma is "duty." In the latter part of the twentieth century we've experimented with the abandonment of a sense of duty and responsibility in favor of an ethic of self-gratification-"If it feels good, do it!" But now many of us are sensing that the experiment has failed. People are feeling that they've lost their moral bearings amidst a chaotic sea of hedonism. Duty is once again in favor.

 

But duty to whom, and for what? We can answer these questions only by understanding the other part of dharma-our essential characteristic. If our essential characteristic is to render loving service to KRSNa, then our primary duty is to focus our attention on awakening this loving service, or bhakti, in ourselves and helping others achieve the same goal.

 

Dharma can give us the insight and inspiritation we need. In this book, India's greatest spiritual ambassador to the world, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAda, takes us to the very heart of dharma, exploring its meaning in his penetrating commentary on an ancient Sanskrit book called the SrImad-BhAgavatam, renowned as the ripe fruit of the tree of Vedic knowledge. In the portion of the SrImad-BhAgavatam Srila PrabhupAda comments on here, the great sage SUta Goswami concisely answers questions on dharma posed to him by an assembly of sages in the sacred NaimiSAranya Forest (in present-day northern India).

 

There is nothing more important than understanding our dharma. This book thus stands as an enduring literary landmark for humanity as we move forward toward the new challenges and opportunities of the twenty-first century.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada: Matter in itself has no form; it is the spirit soul that has form.

 

Matter has no inherent form but it can take on many different forms. As to the spirit soul - yes it has an inherent form, yet that form is not unchangeable. So it is not really that simple.

[theist]

I see the forms of matter in the same way as I see the forms on a movie screen. Are those forms really there on the screen? They appear to be. But are they really?

[Guest guest]

The forms on the screen are not real. For example, you may see a huge rock crash into a building but there really is no rock or building there.

 

On the other hand, the things in this material world and real and have form. A mountain such as Mount Everest, for example. If Mount Everest didn't have a form, we could'nt say it is 8,848 metres tall. The forms are not permanent because everything in this material world is temporary but the temporary nature of thngs doesn't take away the fact that the forms are there to see.

 

 

I see the forms of matter in the same way as I see the forms on a movie screen. Are those forms really there on the screen? They appear to be. But are they really?

[theist]

 

The forms on the screen are not real. For example, you may see a huge rock crash into a building but there really is no rock or building there.

 

On the other hand, the things in this material world and real and have form. A mountain such as Mount Everest, for example. If Mount Everest didn't have a form, we could'nt say it is 8,848 metres tall. The forms are not permanent because everything in this material world is temporary but the temporary nature of thngs doesn't take away the fact that the forms are there to see.

 

So you are saying that only 3 dimesionally perceived forms are real?

[Guest guest]

Well, I really cannot comment on things that are beyond my perception. If there is a 4th dimension and it is stated in the Sastra, then I will accept it. But what did you think of the Himalayas example to llustrate the presence of form? Do you think it makes sense?

 

 

So you are saying that only 3 dimesionally perceived forms are real?

[gHari]

Hayagriva dasa: "For Aquinas, [...] the living entity has to acquire an individual form in order to actualize himself. When matter unites with form, the form gives individuality and personality"

 

This is why Srila Prabhupada spoke about 'form' - as it relates to the soul; not necessarily forms in general. Therefore he responded "Matter in itself has no form; it is the spirit soul that has form". It is not the body that has a soul; it is the soul that has a body.

[theist]

 

Well, I really cannot comment on things that are beyond my perception. If there is a 4th dimension and it is stated in the Sastra, then I will accept it. But what did you think of the Himalayas example to llustrate the presence of form? Do you think it makes sense?

 

You will have to explain to me the actual difference between the Himalayas in India and the Himalayas on a movie screen. Actual difference means apart from how humans may relate to it, like climbing or living on vs. just viewing. I would then say that climbing the Himalayas is an illusion for the soul just as seeing the Himayalayas on a screen is an illusion.

 

But aside from this if you can't come up with a name besides just plain Guest then please don't bother to respond.