Swaminarayan was god supreme

[Guest guest]

 

There is absolute truth in Swaminarayan being God supreme. He is the lord and he isn’t just a saint.

 

 

 

I did a quick scan of this thread, and while I did see a lot of Sanskrit verses brought up to prove the above thesis, I did not see any unequivocally explicit evidence from any mainstream source that ought to be acceptable to all.

 

The evidence that Saint Swaminarayana is God appears to be no stronger than that offered for Caitanya.

 

Just my own personal reflection. By the way, I would not personally expect an "incarnation" of God to speak in a way that is contradictory to shruti, unless "He" is deliberately trying to mislead people. In particular, the following:

 

 

As Shiv, Amba (Parvati), Ganesh (Krishna avatar), Hanuman (Shiv’s anshavtaar). These are all his incarnations. He is one Shiv is also Narayan. They are to be treated as one bhramroop (As one entity).

 

 

... appears to be nothing more than the standard, politically-correct Hindu banner designed to attract followers and less interested in remaining faithful to sAstra. As far as Vedas are concerned, there is only one Brahman, identified always as Vishnu.

 

 

[gokulkr]

<---

As Shiv, Amba (Parvati), Ganesh (Krishna avatar), Hanuman (Shiv’s anshavtaar). These are all his incarnations. He is one Shiv is also Narayan. They are to be treated as one bhramroop (As one entity).

--->

 

Lord Hanumanji is incarnation of Mukhya-Prana (Vayu deva). Its clearly specified in "Balitha suktha" of rig veda &

also in Vayu purana.

 

Of course, Mukya-Prana (Vayu deva) is itself an amsa of Lord Krishna as its clearly stated in Bhagavath Gita.

 

Lord Mukhya-Prana is Jeevothama & Lord Hari is Sarvothama.

 

Note : All vaishnava sampradayas lead to lotus feet of Lord Hari. So vaishnavas should respect all vaishnava sampradayas rather then questioning its genuiness. Even though i am a madhva by practive, but i consider Lord Chaitanya & Lord Swaminarayana as Amsas of Lord Krishna. I respect all Vaishnava Sampradayas. So we vaishnavas be united rather than ridiculing other sampradyas.

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Dhuupa Theerthaya Namaha

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Shri Guru Raghavendraya Namaha

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Om Namo Venkatesaya Namaha

/images/graemlins/smile.gif Jai Shri Krishna

[Haridham]

What is this nonsense about Jai Hind. Your mother land is the planet earth. BHUMI The whole world is the land of god. Comparing dwarka and gaga to jai hind is completely ridicules.

 

The word hindu is never in mentioned in any sastras. GOd appeared where the most pious people were. They were not in india or "HINDUSTAN" because the word India wasnt even known back then. It was BHarat because bharat ruled the world. The whole world was known as Bharat not just india. The world was always named after the rulers of the world who were king at the time.

 

Jai Hind is nonsense. Jai Krsna.

 

As for swaminarayan that is still questionable. Guru maybe but krsna that is still debatable in my heart.

 

Hare Krsna

[Avinash]

It is not good to consider somebody's statement as nonsense without trying to know what exactly he meant and why he made that statement. It is true that the words "India" and "Hindustan" do not appear in the scriptures of Sanatana Dharma (at least as far I know). But it does not mean that these words have no meaning even now. At present, both of these words refer to a country. In fact, both refer to the same country. Saying "Jai hind" is one way of praising this country. There is nothing wrong in that. Calling "Jai Hind" as nonsense is equivalent to saying that the singing of any national song/anthem of any country is nonsense.

[Guest guest]

Note : All vaishnava sampradayas lead to lotus feet of Lord Hari. So vaishnavas should respect all vaishnava sampradayas rather then questioning its genuiness. Even though i am a madhva by practive, but i consider Lord Chaitanya & Lord Swaminarayana as Amsas of Lord Krishna. I respect all Vaishnava Sampradayas. So we vaishnavas be united rather than ridiculing other sampradyas.

 

i think this is true. everything leads to krishna. as a vaishnav i worship them all. The swaminarayan Dharm accept all these as well. I cant understand why other so called vaishnavs cannot accept this.

 

 

another guest states that he cannot see the coming of Swaminarayan written in mainstream text. Is the Skand and Padma puran written by Bhagvan Ved Vyas not authentic then? Because this is what you mean. As the coming of Swaminarayan is stated there!

Anyhow Lord Swaminarayan Had all 16 Holy signs on his feet and performed what no other man or Avtari could. It was Krishna himself incarnate along with other avtaari mukts. as a vaishna i strongly believe this.

 

I belive in the lord with love for the Swaminarayan image in my heart. The more i do this the more love i find for him, and find him smiling back at me.

 

He is my Ishta dev! there is nothing wrong in this as he is antaryami and if i wanted to get really close to him he, as he knows he would take my hand that i hold am to him, and this i can see him doing already as lord swaminarayan.

[Guest guest]

What is this nonsense about Jai Hind. Your mother land is the planet earth. BHUMI The whole world is the land of god. Comparing dwarka and gaga to jai hind is completely ridicules.

 

 

that is what Haridham put.

Now i say what i say what is wrong in in saying 'Jai' to somthing that is Divya? land touched by God himself. and who said i was comparing Dwarka with Jai Hind? i was respecting the place. You are filled with ahamkaar. Get rid of it before it eats you up and chucks you into maya. Fill yourself with bliss of the lord, and you will see beyond all these little remarks you hold for these very small instances.

 

Jay vrindavan vihari

Jay Swaminarayan

[Guest guest]

www.swaminarayan.info

[Guest guest]

 

another guest states that he cannot see the coming of Swaminarayan written in mainstream text. Is the Skand and Padma puran written by Bhagvan Ved Vyas not authentic then? Because this is what you mean. As the coming of Swaminarayan is stated there!

 

 

 

Dear Swaminarayan bhakta,

 

I have complete copies of both the "Skand and Padma puran" (sic). I am reasonably sure that you will not be able to tell me the exact verse number in either text in which a "Swaminarayan" incarnation is explicitly mentioned. Please feel free to prove me wrong. I will be happy to look in both sources for the evidence you claim is there.

 

 

 

[Haridham]

why not say jai AMerica, or canada. God is everywhere. Krsna as vamanadev in 3 steps covered the whole universe so that includes America and canada.

 

You keep talking about ahamkar this and ahamkar that. The word ahamkar means to identify oneself to the body(jai hind, hindu etc) and identifying oneself to a country(india,usa etc)

 

Anger is not a spiritual quality my friend.

 

You dont like being told otherwise and that is another example of ahamkar.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Lord Swaminarayan is Shree Krishna.

 

You try to prove me wrong then try but i have full faith in him, why try denying what you yourself are not fully aware of? He is adosh.

 

Dont question God and his Leela because even teh vedas cannot describe him and his work "Neti Neti"..

 

As a vaishnav you should be thinking, God is everywhere.. he comes and goes as he like. He comes to protect dharm and his saints like declared by himself.

 

Swaminarayan is supreme Krishna himself and i will forever worship him in this manner, and hopefully he will come to take me to his abode when this jee of mine leaves this body.

All i am is a mere soul, just brahm. Swaminarayan is parbrahm Purushottam.

 

As an elaboration, Sadguru Shree Shatanand Muni writes in Artha Dipika (Shikshapatri Bhashya).

 

Quote:

"yaha saakshaat bhagvaan ksharakhara paraha krshnaha

sa eva svayam bhaktau dharmat aas, bhoori krupaya sri svaminarayanaha

maanushyam bhuvi naatayannijjan acharyatvadharme sthitaha

krshnam praha parokshavann tu tatonyaha sosti yatsa svayam”

 

 

Quote:

“That live (saakshat) God (bhagvan) Krshna who is above kshar and akshar, appeared from Bhakti through Dharma as Swaminarayan; assumed a human body on the earth like a dramatist (natta).

That Krshna whilst observing the (human’s) dharmas of an Acharya speaks in third person (parokshavann) but that Krshna is none other than Himself”

 

 

i.e. that Krshna that Swaminarayan Bhagwan speaks of is none other than Himself, however Krshna is referred to by Swaminarayan Bhagwan in third person form (parokshavann) because Swaminarayan Bhagwan is writing the Shikshapatri in the capacity of an Acharya or Guru (acharyatvadharme).

 

This forms the fundamental basis of this discussion. Swaminarayan Bhagwan was indeed a Guru, Sadhu, Acharya, Teacher and even a devotee of Krshna. But this does not contradict His status as God.

For if this were the case then Lord Rama was a King and fulfilled His role as the ruler of Ayodhya. Lord Krishna was a cowherd and later the King of Dwarika. He directed the people of Gokul t oworship Govardhan(it was his own form of Shaligram).Also, Lord Nar Narayana were brahmchari-rishis performing tappascharya in Badrik Ashram. Does this imply that a they were not God just because they were kings, a cowherd or rishis? Of course not. Similarly, Swaminarayan Bhagwan was a devotee of Krishna, a Sadhu, an Acharya a Teacher as well as being Lord Himself.

 

 

The shastras openly proclaim that God manifests Himself numerous times whenever and wherever He seems fit. Srimad Bhagwad Geeta:

 

Quote:

“yada-yada hi dharmasya galnir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya tada 'tmanam srjanmy aham

paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharmasamsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge-yuge "

 

 

Quote:

“O Bharta (Arjuna), whenever there is a decline of righteousness

and a rise of unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself

For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the

wicked and for establishing righteouseness, I come into being from age to age” Chapter 4 verses 7 and 8

 

 

 

and Srimad Bhagwatam:

 

Quote:

" I also assume other bodies to protect religion

and to end irreligion whenever it

flourishes in the course of time."

10th Skandha, 50th Adhyay 10th Shlok

 

 

Also:

Quote:

"yada hy adharmena tamo-dhiyo nrpa jivanti

tatraisa hi sattvatah kila dhatte bhagam satyam

rtam dayam yaso bhavaya rupani dadhad yuge yuge"

 

“Whenever there are kings and administrators

living like animals in the lowest modes of existence,

the Lord in His transcendental form manifests His supreme power,

the Truth Positive, shows special mercy to the faithful,

performs wonderful activities and manifests various transcendental forms as is

necessary in different periods and ages.”

1st Skandha, 10th Adhyay, 25th Shlok

 

 

 

In Mahabharata, Van Parva Shree Krishna vows to Markandey Muni

 

Quote:

"daitya hinsanuraktashcha, hyavadhya sur sattamaihi

raakshasaaschapi lokesmi-nyadotpdhati darunaha

tadaham sampradaysangyami, gruheshu shubh karmanam

pravishto manusham deham, sarvam prasahmayamyaham"

 

"When the evil, indulgent in vices such as violence, emerges than

I manifest to those who have virtuous deeds (shubh karma).

I assume human bodies and destroy all those"

 

 

More specific references to the arrival of Sahajanand Swami, referring to His accomplishments during His time as human on earth, exist in Srimad Bhagwat where Vyas writes:

 

Quote:

"keerat hunandhra pulind pushkasa,

aabhir kanka yavanaha khasaadayaha

ye-nye cha papa yadupashrayashraya

shuddhyanti tasmey prabhvishnave namaha” 2nd Skandha, 4th Adhyay, 18th Shlok

 

"Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha,

Yavana, members of the Khasa races and even others addicted to sinful acts

will be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord,

due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful

obeisance unto Him who is to appear"

 

 

 

In addition, Padma Puran, Brahmand Puran, Vishvaksen Samhita, Vishnu Dharmottar Puran also forecast the coming of Swaminarayan Bhagwan referring to "name of Sahajanandson of Dharmadevknown as Swami" etc.

 

As an additional comment, the Samudrik Shastras state that God and God only has the 16 marks and symbols on His feet. In the Padma Puran Brahmaa tells Narad that He has witnessed sixteen sybols/marks on the Lord of all incarnations' feet. The very sixteen symbols/marks can be found on the lotus feet of Sahajanand Swami.

 

 

The arrival of an avatar is accompanied by a purpose. The purpose of Krishna avatar is well discussed by Krishna Himself. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, Krishna declares His intentions of coming on this earth as well as His intention to return.

Quote:

"haniñyämi balaà hy etad

bhuvi bhäraà samähitam

mägadhena samänétaà

vaçyänäà sarva-bhübhujäm

akñauhiëébhiù saìkhyätaà

bhaöäçva-ratha-kuïjaraiù

mägadhas tu na hantavyo

bhüyaù kartä balodyamam"

10th Skandha 50th Adhyay Shlok 7 and 8

 

“Since it is such a burden on the earth, I will destroy Jarasandha’s army, consisting of akñauhiëés of foot soldiers, horses, chariots and elephants, which the King of Magadha has assembled from all subservient kings and brought together here. But Jarasandha himself should not be killed, since in the future he will certainly assemble another army”

 

 

Quote:

"etad-artho ’vatäro ’yaà

bhü-bhära-haraëäya me

saàrakñaëäya sädhünäà

kåto ’nyeñäà vadhäya ca"

shloka 9

 

“This is the purpose of My present incarnation—to relieve the earth of its burden,

protect the pious and kill the impious”

 

 

Quote:

“anyopi dharma-rakshayaii

deha sambhriyate maya

viramayapy adharmasya

kale prabhavatau kvacit”

shlok 10

 

"I also assume other bodies to protect religion and to end

irreligion whenever it flourishes in the course of time"

 

 

It can be concluded that the evil people will return, many of them as rulers and kings indulging in vices - and for the removal of such adharma the Lord will assume other forms.

 

Turning to the Vasudev Mahatmay (Skandha Puran, Vishnu Khand) it clearly states that the vow by Lord Krishna is indeed further verified in more detail:

 

Quote:

"Maya krshnen nihitaha sarujunen raneshu ye

Pravartayishyantya suraaste tvadharma yada kshitau.

Dharmadeva ttada murtau, narnarayanatmana

Pravrte-pi kalau Brahman! Bhutvaham samago dvijaha

Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha

Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja"

18th Adhyay Shloks 43-44

 

“When the asuras who were killed by Myself and Arjuna

begin to spread wickedness on earth, I will be born in a Bhramin family

to Dharmadev and Murti from Nar Narayana.

I, with many other rishis, will receive a shaap (curse) from a

Muni to come on the earth to a

Samved Bhramin family to protect

the religion from evil gurus and rulers.”

 

 

 

The Lord clearly defines how He will return to destroy that evil He spoke of earlier. He will be born to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi (as did Swaminarayan Bhagwan), to a Samvedi Brahmin family (as was Swaminarayan Bhagwan). The incident of the sabha in Badrik Ashram and Duravasa Rishi's curse is also mentioned here.

 

Thus it is clear that God returned to establish ekantik dharma against the evil elements that had returned from the time of Vasudev Shree Krshna.

 

It is true that Swaminarayan Bhagwan advocated the worship of Radha-Krishna, but this was to appease the Vaishnavas who were most prevalent in West India. A glimpses of His underlying intention can be found in the Shikshapatri shlok 209:

Quote:

"vakra bhaavetu pujaiv, karya-spaha prativasaram

madroopam iti madvani, manyeyam paramaadarat"

 

"When there is none (who can read out the Shikshapatri) it shall be worshipped daily

as you should be assured with respect that My words are My concrete and manifest form"

 

 

Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan is addressing His illiterate followers, instructing them to worship the Shikshapatri as if it were Swaminarayan Himself, thereby revealing that He was to be worshipped.

 

When interpreting the Shikshapatri, Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan has instructed us to refer to the Sampraday' shastras in Shlok 203

 

Quote:

"eeti sankshepto dharmaha, sarvesham likhita maya

sampradayik granthebhyo, gney eshamtu vistaraha"

 

"I have enclosed a summary of the dharmas for all (in this Shikshapatri).

For a detailed elaboration(vistaraha) (of this Shikshapatri) refer

to the shastras of My Sampraday"

 

 

These shastras have been defined to include Vachanamrut, Srimad SatsangiJeevan, Shree Hari Digvijay, Bhaktachintamani and Desh Vibhag no Lekh in particular.

 

When referring to those Shastras we find Bhagwan Shree Swaminarayan often praising Lord Shree Krishna and at times referring to Himself as the Supreme. This is due to the audience which He is addressing where just as in the Shikshapatri, Swaminarayan Bhagwan makes a clear attempt to make it appealing to all virtuous people whether they believe in Swaminarayan as God or not.

 

If He were to openly declare " I, as God, am writing this Shikshapatri.." it would rejected and even ridiculed by those outside the Sampraday and this would hinder His objective of redeeming countless souls.

 

Further in Artha Dipika – Shikshapatri Bhasya we find the following statement

 

Quote:

“nanvastan sri krshnasya parabrahmatvam moolpurushsya bhagavatastu krshnashabda vachyatvam na ghatate. Dvaaparante devaki vasudevabhyam avirbhavantaram krshnam prvrtti siddheriti chettann. Vasudev gruh aavirbhaavatpragev bhagavataha krshnakhyatve sakalam brahmvaivarta puran mev pramanam”.

As a commentary to Shikshapatri Shlok 29.

 

 

The eternal Krshna though is the Parabrahma but the name does not suit MoolPurush (original causal personality) because the God (as Mool Purush) manifested at the end of Dwapara to Devaki and Vasudev and then Gargacharya named Him ‘Krshna’. Note, that after the birth of God to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi, Markandey Rushi named Him Krshna (as well as Hari and HariKrshna). Therefore whoever says that the name ‘Krshna’ became prevalent after His arrival (in Mathura at the end of Dwapara to Vasudev and Devaki) is not right in doing so, because God's eternal name is Krshna (all attractive) and even before manifesting to Vasudev and Devaki Brahmvaivarta Puran uses the term Krshna many times over.

The Srimad Bhagavatam in 1st Skandha, 3rd Adhyay, 28th Shloka therefore declares after listing 24 avatars including Vasudev Krishna that

“ete chamsh kalaha pumsaha, krshnastu bhagavan svayam”

 

i.e. all these (i.e.24 listed including Vasudev Krshna) are various portions of the Supreme. Bhagavat refers to this same ‘eternal’ Krshna, that Artha Dipika speaks of, as Bhagwan Himself.

 

Just as in the Shikshapatri, in the Vachanamrut Lord Swaminarayan addresses the audience in a manner which appeals to them, at times referring to Himself as a great bhakta (who can be worshipped alongside Lord Shree Krishna) and often revealing Himself as the Supreme Reality.

It is worthy to note, that wherever in the Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan does indeed reveal Himself, the tone and atmosphere set in the beginning of the Prakaran is of a serious nature.

At times, He even discloses His hesitance in imparting these facts for the fear that certain followers' faith will be affected.

 

A few Vachanamrut where Swaminarayan Bhagwan suggests He is a bhakta and/or Guru are: Gadhada Pratham 44; Gadhada Pratham 48; Gadhada Madhyam 28 and Vadtal 18.

 

In many Vachanamruts, Swaminarayan Bhagwan reveals His true identity. Such Prakarans include: Loya 7 and 11; Gadhada Madhya 13; Amdavad (Ahmedabad) 6 and 7 as well as Gadhada Antya 38.

 

Finally, when Swaminarayan Bhagwan decided to establish mandirs He declared that He will install His own images. Moreover, He even installed His present image as Hari Krshna Maharaj in mandirs such as Vadtal.

 

The grandeur of the Swaminarayan Sampraday lies in its ability to accommodate a variety of schools of belief, namely accept Swaminarayan only as a Guru; accept Swaminarayan as an incarnation or accept Swaminarayan as the Incarnator Supreme.

 

Either way, a follower would be obliged to adhere to the precepts laid down in the sarva-jiv-hitavaha Holy Shikshapatri thereby attaining maha-sukh - the ultimate happiness in this world and beyond.

 

 

 

[sudhaya]

 

<font color="blue">Note* Indian man (3): I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana.

</font color>

 

--------

<font color="red"> Evening Darsana </font color>

September 1, 1976, Delhi

 

<font color="brown">Prabhupada: </font color> ...required to kill somebody, he'll do that. If it is required for his sense gratification. There are many instances that a woman is addicted to another man and she has killed her husband, killed her son. Why? Sense gratification. I have seen one woman, my Godbrother's wife, she killed her son for being implicated with another man. I have seen it. Nunam pramattah kurute vikarma [bhag. 5.5.4]. Things which are not to be done, they do it. Why? For the matter of sense gratification. They do it. That's a fact. So therefore simply for sense gratification they are prepared to do anything. That means papa(?). It is the verdict of the court that when a man kills another man he becomes mad. Without becoming mad a man cannot kill another man. So everything is being done which is not sanctioned because for sense gratification. The whole world is (indistinct) is sense gratification. And at the end, when he's little spiritually inclined, he wants to satisfy senses by thinking artificially that "I shall become God." That is the greatest sense gratification. "Because remaining a small living entity I have been hampered in my sense gratification. Now let me become God so that there will be no restriction of my sense gratification." Bhagavan (indistinct). Because he has failed to satisfy his senses remaining non-Bhagavan, now he wants to become Bhagavan. Yogi, that is also another sense gratification. That if I show some magic, if I can create little gold like this, hundreds and thousands of men will be after me and I shall live, very nicely. Gratify my senses. These things are going on practically. The man who is manufacturing gold, and so many rich people are coming to his disciples and he's begging for a motor car. If he can create gold, why he cannot create a motor car? This is going on. (Hindi)

 

Guest: Apnara prasna hai? (Hindi conversation continues for some time)

 

Prabhupada: But so far you must fix up, what you want.

 

Guest: What is realization?

 

Prabhupada: Realization, everything is realization. If you can do business well, that is also realization.

 

Guest: Realization of God.

 

Prabhupada: Then you, if you want...

 

Guest: Realization of God.

 

Prabhupada: Realization of God, (Hindi), bhaktya mam abhijanati [bg. 18.55]. So if you want to know me, then bhaktya, bhakti. (Hindi) Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [bg. 18.55]. If you want to know God really, then you have to take this path, bhakti. If you want something else, that is a different thing.

 

yanti-deva vrata devan

pitrn yanti pitr-vratah

bhutejya yanti bhutani

mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam

[bg. 9.25]

 

(Hindi conversation for some time)

Prabhupada: Find out this verse. (Hindi) Somebody, you can read? (rings bell) (more Hindi) Somebody... Why don't you send? What they are doing? All these rascals, that they cannot read.

 

Devotee: Someone should come in?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But they do not know that somebody should remain here. Why are there? What they are doing there?

 

Hari-sauri: Harikesa is typing. Pradyumna is reading Sanskrit books.

 

Prabhupada: Send Pradyumna immediately. Kleso 'dhikarataras tesam avyaktasakta-cetasam. Klesa. Beginning with klesa. You could not? Klesa. K-l-e-s. Why don't you come here? And who will find out? Come here.

 

Devotee: Kleso 'dhikarataras tesam?

 

Prabhupada: Why do you say that you do not find? Find out. They are not accustomed. Kleso'dhikataras tesam avyaktasakta-cetasam [bg. 12.5]. (Hindi) Read it.

 

Pradyumna:

kleso 'dhikataras tesam

avyaktasakta-cetasam

avyakta hi gatir duhkham

dehavadbhir avapyate

[bg. 12.5]

 

Prabhupada: Ah. Avyakta hi gatir duhkham. (Hindi) Read it.

 

Pradyumna: "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

 

Prabhupada: Yes. (Hindi) You are expecting happiness by thinking of impersonal form of the Lord. That is not possible. You simply get troubles, that's all. (Hindi) What is the purport?

 

Pradyumna: "The group of transcendentalists who follow the path of the inconceivable, unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme Lord are called jnana-yogis, and persons who are in full Krsna consciousness, engaged in devotional service to the Lord are called bhakti-yogis. Now here the difference between jnana-yoga and bhakti-yoga is definitely expressed."

 

Prabhupada: Krsna personally says bhaktya mam abhijanati [bg. 18.55]. (Hindi) If you like to tolerate adi-klesa, that is your choice.

Otherwise, Bhagavan, sac-cid-ananda...

sri vigraharadhana-nitya-nana-

srìgara-tan-mandira-marjanadau

yuktasya bhaktams ca niyunjato 'pi

vande guroh sri-caranaravindam **

 

(Hindi) You can accept any way. That is your choice.

 

ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis

tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih

goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

[bs. 5.37]

 

Ananda-cinmaya-rasa vigraha. Sac-cid-ananda vigraha [bs. 5.1]. (Hindi conversation for some time)

 

Indian man (1): Your Divine Grace, how long are you staying in Vrndavana?

 

Prabhupada: I'm going to... Oh, Vrndavana, three weeks.

 

Indian man (1): Where are you spending your...

 

Prabhupada: Any time in your home.

 

Indian man (1): Any time (indistinct) which is convenient to Your Grace. I'll come over to Vrndavana on the l5th evening. l5th evening, I'll come over to Vrndavana?

 

Prabhupada: Oh yes.

 

Indian man (1): And then what is the program? Your Divine Grace is coming back to Delhi? From Vrndavana after three weeks?

 

Prabhupada: They have made program to go to Chandigarh.

 

Indian man (1): Chandigarh. (indistinct) The route is almost the same distance from here to Vrndavana. 5 miles, 8 miles difference. Not much difference mileage-wise.

 

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

 

Gopala Krsna: No. The road is okay. You said we should go to Vrndavana via Aligarh?

 

Indian man (2): In my opinion you should. That road is very bad. Five or six kilometers they have raised the road by about six or seven feet and all this is all mud and muck and the car skids. In my opinion you go via Aligarh.

 

Gopala Krsna: Or we can come to Aligarh from Vrndavana.

 

Indian man (2): Suggest to go back to Vrndavana and then come. (Hindi) (Gopala Krsna converses with Indians about which road to take)

 

Pradyumna: Purport: Samadhi means "fixed mind." The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag adhiyate 'sminn atmatattva-yathatmyam: "When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is called samadhi. "Samadhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy.

(More Hindi)

 

Prabhupada: He, her son he is the father and mother, he's an Indian, in Detroit, very good boy, getting very nice. He, living in the temple, husband wife, child we have. Baca, ek baca? He's getting very happy, very nice boy. (Hindi) Just like their son, he's educated very nicely. Educated boys are joining, from foreign countries and not from here. (Hindi) Here is Gopala Krsna, he was sales manager in Coca-cola. (Hindi) ...dollar, he has given. (Hindi for some time) You have bought that book? Ah. Stillson Judah's?

 

Pradyumna: No. It's in Bombay. We may have a copy in Vrndavana also.

 

Prabhupada: One professor, Stillson Judah, he has written one book. After studying our movement five years he has written one, "Hare Krsna and Counter-culture.Hare Krsna and Counter-culture." (Hindi)

 

Pradyumna: Doesn't have a copy here. It's published by Princeton University Press. In their religion... In their set of volumes on different religions.

 

Indian woman: Prasada (Hindi)

 

Prabhupada: I am going to Vrndavana tomorrow. (Hindi) I'll be three weeks there. (hindi) Still, it is Vrndavana. Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavanam. (Hindi) As He is worshipable, similarly, Vrndavana dhama is also worshipable. Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavanam ramya kacid upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena va kalpita. Upasana vraja-vadhu, the vraja, damsels of vrajabhumi, the gopis, as they worship the Lord, there is no comparison to that process of worship. Vraja-vadhu-vargena. Aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavana.

 

Indian man (3): ...we are going there after Parliament session tomorrow. (Hindi)

 

Prabhupada: They spend so much money for the roadways, still it is not good.

 

Indian man (3): Draining is different levels arising water (indistinct) in excessive in quantity, and the natural drains are not efficient enough to take it out. I was told that...

 

Prabhupada: There is no sufficient outlet.

 

Indian man (3): Yes. But some of those asrama, Mathura, it's very deep, that four feet water in the asramas. Three-four feet water.

 

Prabhupada: Within the asramas?

 

Indian man (3): And temple.

 

Pradyumna: Our temple is all right. Raman Reti is not flooded where we are. It's almost up to Fogel Ashram in the back, Yamuna, but it has not come to our Raman Reti.

 

Indian man (3): And now you will remain here in India for some time?

 

Prabhupada: That I do not know. I, actually, now it is little troublesome for me to travel all the year.

 

Indian man (3): You are just gone from (indistinct).

 

Prabhupada: Rest, if I rest then there may be... Because I am dealing with all neophytes. If I don't keep them alive by personal presence... Still they are doing nice. I have appointed twenty secretaries all over the world. I am training them. They are managing. Managing nicely. I have been in New York and Los Angeles and Hawaii, all big, big centers. London, Paris.

 

Indian man (3): Oh, it's a very great. Your program for Kuruksetra and etc. and the...

 

Prabhupada: Program was that they promised to give me land.

 

Indian man (3): Who?

 

Prabhupada: That chief minister.

 

Indian man (3): Have they done so?

 

Prabhupada: Not yet.

 

Indian man (3): I had about 2 acres was available, except that. (talks about land he owns-indistinct)

 

Prabhupada: We are trying for another big scheme in Bengal. We have applied to the government to acquire land, 350 acres, a big planetarium. Planetarium. We have described the planetarium in our Fifth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. In that planetarium it is said that the moon is above the sun planet. By one million six hundred thousand miles.

 

Indian man (3): What does astronomy say? The modern astronomy.

 

Prabhupada: They say the moon planet is nearer to earth planet and they have gone there.

 

Indian man (3): No, no, have you given up the idea of Kuruksetra?

 

Prabhupada: No, no, not...

 

Indian man (3): No, because if you have the idea, the land is the least part of it because so much is to be done, if the idea is that something should be done. I learned that gentleman, Mr. (indistinct) ...and he has said that he will do something. I was not there at the time of the (talks about himself-very low, hard to hear)

 

Prabhupada: You bring one little plate prasadam from there, from that...

 

Indian man (3): You will be in Vrndavana for some...

 

Prabhupada: Three weeks.

 

Indian man (3): After that you don't know. After that where you go, you don't know.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Indian man (3): Well, this is God's work, Lord Krsna's work. I am trying (indistinct) to cooperate with you because nobody can do.

 

Prabhupada: No, you have done tremendous work.

 

Indian man (3): No, but which is very little considering the situation, the condition, problem (in the) country. I am at a lower level than your level than your work (indistinct).

 

Prabhupada: The one encouraging thing in this movement is that our books are being very much appreciated. In all universities, foreign and Indian, libraries, professors, learned scholars.

 

Indian man (3): Yes, they'll branch out and... It's a great service.

 

Prabhupada: We are selling books to the extent of sixty thousand dollars daily. That is our only hope, that we shall not be financially in difficulty. People are taking our books very nicely. People are accepting our literature.

 

Indian man (3): It is not that difficulties were not there (indistinct). I don't have the support, but I feel (indistinct) find that several places the demand for this for the acceptance of (indistinct) also not in the manner in which I had wanted. (indistinct) ...lakhs of people stand against (indistinct) religion and moral side. There should be a linking up of all those who want religion to remain and morality to also be there. Those forces have to be met by also organized force from the right kind of people (goes on giving his own opinions-indistinct) ...I hope you are not coming in your way.

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Indian man (3): I remember that you had written yourself that there is something we can do together. Possibly this question, building and all that. (indistinct) It is good to have that building and that land, but even before that there is work to be done at the Kuruksetra.

 

Prabhupada: My point is that Kuruksetra is the place where Bhagavad-gita was spoken. So if we take the words of Bhagavad-gita as it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, then people will be benefitted. But if we do not take the words of Bhagavad-gita, then moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jnana vicetasah [bg. 9.12]. That I believe. Find out this verse. Moghasa mogha-karmano.

 

Indian man (3): That's true. I also believe that there must be a direct...

 

Prabhupada: No, why not direct?

 

Indian man (3): Putting in your interpretation, that is wrong. It should be direct. That doesn't mean only those people who have accepted this can come together.

 

Prabhupada: And why the others will not accept?

 

Indian man (3): No, we have made, you must have seen our literature, Gita as a text, but still people may not judge...

 

Prabhupada: No, no, we should not depend on the people's acceptance only. We have to present Gita as it is. Now everything is not accepted by everyone. Even if you make change, there is no guarantee that they will...

 

Indian man (3): No, no.

 

Prabhupada: No, no I am not speaking to you. Anyone.

 

Indian man (3): I am not trying to make a show. I believe a direct interpretation is important thing more than the other kinds of ideas and conceptions.

 

Pradyumna:

moghasa mogha-karmano

mogha-jnana vicetasah

raksasim asurim caiva

prakrtim mohinim sritah

[bg. 9.12]

 

"Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demoniac and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated."

 

Prabhupada: Go on, go on. I have given any purport?

 

Pradyumna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. There are many devotees who assume themselves to be in Krsna consciousness and devotional service but at heart do not accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, as the Absolute Truth. For them, the fruit of devotional service-going back to Godhead-will never be tasted. Similarly, those who are engaged in fruitive, pious activities and who are ultimately hoping to be liberated from this material entanglement will never be successful either because they deride the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. In other words, persons who mock Krsna are to be understood to be demonic or atheistic. As described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gita, such demonic miscreants never surrender to Krsna. Therefore their mental speculations to arrive at the Absolute Truth bring them to the false conclusion that the ordinary living entity and Krsna are one and the same. With such a false conviction, they think that the body of any human being is now simply covered by material nature and that as soon as one is liberated from this material body there is no difference between God and himself. This attempt to become one with Krsna will be baffled because of delusion. Such atheistic and demoniac cultivation of spiritual knowledge is always futile. That is the indication of this verse. For such persons, cultivation of the knowledge in the Vedic literature, like the Vedanta-sutra and the Upanisads, is always baffled.

 

It is a great offense, therefore, to consider Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, to be an ordinary man. Those who do so are certainly deluded because they cannot understand the eternal form of Krsna. In the Brhad-vaisnava mantra it is clearly stated that one who considers the body of Krsna to be material should be driven out from all rituals and activities of the sruti. And if one by chance sees his face, he should at once take bath in the Ganges to rid himself of infection. People jeer at Krsna because they are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Their destiny is certainly to take birth after birth in the species of atheistic and demoniac life. Perpetually, their real knowledge will remain under delusion, and gradually they will regress to the darkest region of creation.

 

Indian man (3): I was reading this yesterday, the Eleventh Chapter. There are twelve, twelve chapters. There Krsna Bhagavan had a dialogue with Uddhava.

 

Pradyumna: He's referring to Ekadasa-skandha of the Bhagavatam.

 

Prabhupada: Uddhava.

 

Indian man (3): And there I felt, I thought that whenever we meet I'll bring up this question with you. 'Cause the way in which it has been translated in Hindi which I read it does create a little question as to what Bhagavan Himself said about the status of the soul, the individual soul, and relationship, (indistinct). Because although I think I should have got it, they don't give it to the life members.

 

Pradyumna: Yes, Bhagavatam, we're up to the Seventh Canto now in the printing. Yes, the canto has come out. So Saptama-skandha, padyokta. We're up to that.

 

Indian man (3): Now, well then if it is, if the member is (indistinct). Now in the Eleventh there is...

 

Prabhupada: Eleventh Canto, yes. When you will remember the verse?

 

Indian man (3): No, no, number (indistinct) again and again I had gone to (indistinct) and as to that, ultimately there is no difference. As soon as this (indistinct) when it comes. I would like this because I belong to the sect of our country, middle sect, from Swami Narayana. He's based on Ramanujacarya philosophy which says that all the souls are there, they are the body of the creator Bhagavan. Just as the human atma has a body, this means there is the difference also identity. Identity is one and yet they have their own place. That have been the faith (indistinct). Now in many places this sometimes this differentiation remains, sometimes there is things said which wipe it out. I thought you would be the best person to give a guidance...

 

Prabhupada: As you say that, Krsna also says in the Bhagavad-gita, mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [bg. 15.7]. We living entities, we are part and parcel of God. Amsa. So any common man can understand.... (end)

-----

 

Just thought this might shed some light on whats going on!

[Guest guest]

 

Lord Swaminarayan is Shree Krishna.

 

You try to prove me wrong then try but i have full faith in him, why try denying what you yourself are not fully aware of? He is adosh.

 

 

 

 

That is merely your own opinion. Having faith in something does not make it true.

 

 

 

As an elaboration, Sadguru Shree Shatanand Muni writes in Artha Dipika (Shikshapatri Bhashya).

 

 

 

 

Which is not sAstra, and thus counts for nothing.

 

 

The shastras openly proclaim that God manifests Himself numerous times whenever and wherever He seems fit. Srimad Bhagwad Geeta:

 

 

 

... says nothing about a swaminarayan incarnation.

 

 

 

and Srimad Bhagwatam:

 

Quote:

" I also assume other bodies to protect religion

and to end irreligion whenever it

flourishes in the course of time."

10th Skandha, 50th Adhyay 10th Shlok

 

 

 

 

... also says nothing about a Swaminarayan incarnation.

 

 

 

Also:

Quote:

"yada hy adharmena tamo-dhiyo nrpa jivanti

tatraisa hi sattvatah kila dhatte bhagam satyam

rtam dayam yaso bhavaya rupani dadhad yuge yuge"

 

“Whenever there are kings and administrators

living like animals in the lowest modes of existence,

the Lord in His transcendental form manifests His supreme power,

the Truth Positive, shows special mercy to the faithful,

performs wonderful activities and manifests various transcendental forms as is

necessary in different periods and ages.”

1st Skandha, 10th Adhyay, 25th Shlok

 

 

 

 

ditto

 

 

 

In Mahabharata, Van Parva Shree Krishna vows to Markandey Muni

 

Quote:

"daitya hinsanuraktashcha, hyavadhya sur sattamaihi

raakshasaaschapi lokesmi-nyadotpdhati darunaha

tadaham sampradaysangyami, gruheshu shubh karmanam

pravishto manusham deham, sarvam prasahmayamyaham"

 

"When the evil, indulgent in vices such as violence, emerges than

I manifest to those who have virtuous deeds (shubh karma).

I assume human bodies and destroy all those"

 

 

 

 

Again, no explicit mention of a Swaminarayan incarnation.

 

 

 

More specific references to the arrival of Sahajanand Swami, referring to His accomplishments during His time as human on earth, exist in Srimad Bhagwat where Vyas writes:

 

Quote:

"keerat hunandhra pulind pushkasa,

aabhir kanka yavanaha khasaadayaha

ye-nye cha papa yadupashrayashraya

shuddhyanti tasmey prabhvishnave namaha” 2nd Skandha, 4th Adhyay, 18th Shlok

 

"Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha,

Yavana, members of the Khasa races and even others addicted to sinful acts

will be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord,

due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful

obeisance unto Him who is to appear"

 

 

 

 

First of all, this isn't a SPECIFIC reference as you claimed. It says NOTHING at all about a "Swaminarayan" incarnation. Period.

 

Secondly, the Sanskrit says nothing at all about "Who is to appear." That is merely your own addition. This verse says nothing about an avatAra who is yet to appear.

 

 

 

In addition, Padma Puran, Brahmand Puran, Vishvaksen Samhita, Vishnu Dharmottar Puran also forecast the coming of Swaminarayan Bhagwan referring to "name of Sahajanandson of Dharmadevknown as Swami" etc.

 

 

 

 

Note the complete lack of evidence presented. No verse number. No verse. I daresay you are making this up. Please prove me wrong by providing the exact verse if you wish.

 

 

 

As an additional comment, the Samudrik Shastras state that God and God only has the 16 marks and symbols on His feet. In the Padma Puran Brahmaa tells Narad that He has witnessed sixteen sybols/marks on the Lord of all incarnations' feet. The very sixteen symbols/marks can be found on the lotus feet of Sahajanand Swami.

 

 

 

 

A bald claim, given that no one can verify it. Or are you planning on exhuming the body for all to see?

 

 

 

The arrival of an avatar is accompanied by a purpose. The purpose of Krishna avatar is well discussed by Krishna Himself. In the Srimad Bhagavatam, Krishna declares His intentions of coming on this earth as well as His intention to return.

Quote:

"haniñyämi balaà hy etad

bhuvi bhäraà samähitam

mägadhena samänétaà

vaçyänäà sarva-bhübhujäm

akñauhiëébhiù saìkhyätaà

bhaöäçva-ratha-kuïjaraiù

mägadhas tu na hantavyo

bhüyaù kartä balodyamam"

10th Skandha 50th Adhyay Shlok 7 and 8

 

“Since it is such a burden on the earth, I will destroy Jarasandha’s army, consisting of akñauhiëés of foot soldiers, horses, chariots and elephants, which the King of Magadha has assembled from all subservient kings and brought together here. But Jarasandha himself should not be killed, since in the future he will certainly assemble another army”

 

 

 

 

This is completely asinine. This verse says NOTHING about a future avatAra. Krishna is here referring to the fact that jarAsandha will amass another army which He will defeat again. Krishna defeated jarAsandha's army 17 more times, as recorded in the bhAgavatam itself (see bhAgavata 10.50.41). This has nothing to do with a kali-yuga avatAra, what to speak of one called "Swaminarayan."

 

 

 

Quote:

"etad-artho ’vatäro ’yaà

bhü-bhära-haraëäya me

saàrakñaëäya sädhünäà

kåto ’nyeñäà vadhäya ca"

shloka 9

 

“This is the purpose of My present incarnation—to relieve the earth of its burden,

protect the pious and kill the impious”

 

 

 

 

Again, nothing here about a kali-yuga avatAra, what to speak of an avatAra named Swaminarayan.

 

 

 

Quote:

“anyopi dharma-rakshayaii

deha sambhriyate maya

viramayapy adharmasya

kale prabhavatau kvacit”

shlok 10

 

"I also assume other bodies to protect religion and to end

irreligion whenever it flourishes in the course of time"

 

 

 

 

Again, nothing specific to Swaminarayan here.

 

 

 

It can be concluded that the evil people will return, many of them as rulers and kings indulging in vices - and for the removal of such adharma the Lord will assume other forms.

 

 

 

And yet there is nothing in the above "logic" to conclude that the Lord will return in an avatAra named Swaminarayana.

 

 

 

Turning to the Vasudev Mahatmay (Skandha Puran, Vishnu Khand) it clearly states that the vow by Lord Krishna is indeed further verified in more detail:

 

Quote:

"Maya krshnen nihitaha sarujunen raneshu ye

Pravartayishyantya suraaste tvadharma yada kshitau.

Dharmadeva ttada murtau, narnarayanatmana

Pravrte-pi kalau Brahman! Bhutvaham samago dvijaha

Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha

Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja"

18th Adhyay Shloks 43-44

 

“When the asuras who were killed by Myself and Arjuna

begin to spread wickedness on earth, I will be born in a Bhramin family

to Dharmadev and Murti from Nar Narayana.

I, with many other rishis, will receive a shaap (curse) from a

Muni to come on the earth to a

Samved Bhramin family to protect

the religion from evil gurus and rulers.”

 

 

 

 

In the exact place in which you name the verse, I have the following, which differs rather significantly from your version:

 

dharmadevAttadA bhaktAdahaM nArAyaNo muniH |

janiSye kozale deze bhUmau hi sAmago dvijaH || 2.9.18.43 ||

 

which better translates as:

 

"Then from the devotee Dharmadeva I, nArAyana muni shall certainly be born on the earth in the land of Kozala as a twice-born singer of the hymns of the sAma veda."

 

Note how, in contrast to your take on it, the actual verse says *nothing* about this individual's mother. From context we can assume the Lord speaks of a kali-yuga avatAra, but no specifics are given that would narrow this down to a single person. Sure, the father's name is Dharmadeva, but then, that's not an uncommon name. And yes, He mentions He will be a brahmin from the sAma veda line, but there are no shortage of those.

 

Really and truly, there is nothing explicit that mentions Swaminarayan.

 

 

 

The Lord clearly defines how He will return to destroy that evil He spoke of earlier. He will be born to Dharmadev and Bhaktidevi (as did Swaminarayan Bhagwan), to a Samvedi Brahmin family (as was Swaminarayan Bhagwan). The incident of the sabha in Badrik Ashram and Duravasa Rishi's curse is also mentioned here.

 

 

 

Actually, this verse and the context mentions nothing about a curse. The very idea of the Supreme Lord Vishnu being cursed by anyone to take a birth is ludicrous, since He is the Supreme over all.

 

[deleted]

 

I will concede the point that your Swaminarayan revealed to some his belief that he is God. However, you still have not shown any explicit, mainstream evidence that unequivocally supports this position. Quoting from his own writings and those of his followers does not count, since that is circular logic.

 

[Haridham]

You make sentimental comments but nothing authoritive.

 

Yes many people have faith in a lot of things. If its sentimental and blind and only scriptures that someone has doctored then its blind faith.

 

I could come with scriptures too. I can call it the Haridham purana. Or the Srimad Haridham. I can claim a lot of things but where am I in the granth raj. The king of books srimad bhagavatam.

 

I had once a swaminarayan devotee come to my house well actually twice and didnt give me any evidence of how great is product was. He didnt like iskcon for some reason and wanted me to leave it and forget about prabhupad.

 

He came with a few people but I had Srimad bhagavatam and prabhupads mercy and all it did was expose him.

 

I mean do you(they) understand that we are not these bodies but spirit souls. I mean i ask this because you say jai hind and they came in saying that leave this gora movement and you are gujurati that is your dharma.

 

My dharma is to serve krsna.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Everything in speech marks is by an unregistered guest.

-----------------

“In the exact place in which you name the verse, I have the following:

dharmadevAttadA bhaktAdahaM nArAyaNo muniH |

janiSye kozale deze bhUmau hi sAmago dvijaH || 2.9.18.43 ||”

 

which better translates as:

 

"Then from the devotee Dharmadeva I, nArAyana muni shall certainly be born on the earth in the land of Kozala as a twice-born singer of the hymns of the sAma veda."

-----------------

 

Well if you say this is the case then where is that Dharmadeva and Narayan Muni? Narayan Muni was a name given to him by His Guru Ramanand swami. He was given the name Narayan Muni and Sarju das and Sahajanand. He also has 108 names.

 

Chapaiya is a few miles away from Ayodhya and it is in Kaushal desh.

-----------------

’’Note how, in contrast to your take on it, the actual verse says *nothing* about this individual's mother. From context we can assume the Lord speaks of a kali-yuga avatAra, but no specifics are given that would narrow this down to a single person. Sure, the father's name is Dharmadeva, but then, that's not an uncommon name. And yes, He mentions He will be a Brahmin from the Sama Veda line, but there are no shortage of those.

 

Really and truly, there is nothing explicit that mentions Swaminarayan”.

-----------------

 

Yes there is, in fact you would have to learn about Swaminarayan lords leela first then you would come upon your own conclusion. It’s all there, and I can say this with ease.

But why do you doubt all this so much? Just like Kans doubted Shri Krishna and his capability till he met him. And why are people referring to the lord as ‘your Swaminarayan’? This is wrong. And why do you show such hatred towards the Swaminarayan faith?

 

Before you were saying there is nothing that proclaims that Swaminarayan as God and now you have found the verse yourself, what more do you need? Why are you trying to deny this? Why all the commotion of your side?

 

You should be saying “ok, it is a possibility as the Lord shouldn’t be ignored, and that Swaminarayan may well be the lord, as the lord’s will is unquestionable.

-----------------

 

“The very idea of the Supreme Lord Vishnu being cursed by anyone to take a birth is ludicrous, since He is the Supreme over all”.

-----------------

 

Excuse me but this is his leela. Obiously you still question Gods work.

· Did Vishnu not get cursed by Narad and Tumbru for taking birth on the Earth and being departed from Lakshmi whilst on the Earth (Ram and Sita)?

· Did Shree Krishna not get cursed by Sudama?

 

Do not question the lords leela. Only the ignorant do. A true Bhakt never questions the Lord or his saints in this manner.

-

 

 

”and Srimad Bhagwatam:

 

Quote:

" I also assume other bodies to protect religion

and to end irreligion whenever it

flourishes in the course of time."

10th Skandha, 50th Adhyay 10th Shlok

 

... says nothing about a swaminarayan incarnation”.

 

No it doesn’t but these are the words of the lord himself, who is himself stating that when irreligion is flourishing he assumes bodies to protect it!

 

So who are you to question that Lord Swaminarayan is God himself??

 

Just say that it is a possibility at least, and that you worship and do Bhakti of the Lord’s other forms however and just not Swaminarayan. We wont eat you up for that.

 

I’m just merely showing and confronting the people who think that Lord Swaminarayan cannot be the lord in no circumstances.

 

I’m not forcing you to believe in him! But you as a worshipper of the Lord shouldn’t just say that the Swaminarayan Sampraday is just fabricated or even questionable.

As a follower of Krishna, you should understand that god and his works are divine and that he does as he pleases because he is nirgun. And even the scriptures cannot describe him and his work …so who are we as mere souls to describe or even discriminate.

 

As isn’t adharm in any case. It is truly laid on the foundations of Dharma. This is Shri Krishna’s aim every time he comes (destroy dharma). To actually realise that Lord Swaminarayan is the lord himself you would have to read the stories of his divine

Life. Otherwise do not question him in any way.

 

 

This is just people being ignorant.

 

Love all,

Jay Swaminarayan

Jay Dwarika Dheesh aur unki leela

 

[Guest guest]

 

You make sentimental comments but nothing authoritive.

 

Yes many people have faith in a lot of things. If its sentimental and blind and only scriptures that someone has doctored then its blind faith.

 

 

 

Haridham, for what it's worth, you make the same mistakes of sentimentalism as he does. It's wrong of you to attack him the way you do now. Every time I have put your theories to the sword, you also have demonstrated nothing more than crass sentimentalism and were completely incapable of defending your long-cherished beliefs.

 

An example of this is when you said, "Yeah, this is in the Vedas. I don't know where, but I heard it from my friends, who are just like Vedas." Or something to that effect.

 

Haridham, if I challenged you to prove Caitanya's divinity, you would flounder just as badly as this Swaminarayan bhakta did. We've seen this already.

 

So you see, I highlight the Swaminarayan bhakta's sentimentalism just to showcase what your (iskcon) sentimentalism looks like to an outsider. Perhaps there are good arguments for Caitanya's divinity somewhere, but you are obviously ignorant of them.

 

 

I had once a swaminarayan devotee come to my house well actually twice and didnt give me any evidence of how great is product was. He didnt like iskcon for some reason and wanted me to leave it and forget about prabhupad.

 

 

And similarly I remember an ISKCOn devotee on this forum who made fun of a Sri Vaishnava's discussion of the vrata of visiting 108 Divya Desams. Seems that poor chap was not worthy of respect because his devotional practice was not equal to ISKCON's. Indeed, I can't help but notice that this individual makes fun of or questions just about everything that isn't officially endorsed by ISKCON, as if there is only one way of worship and all others are fit to be ridiculed. But hey, that's not a fair comparison I guess. I mean, if he is initiated in iskcon, then he can say whatever he wants.

 

This is so hypocritical it amazes me.

 

[Guest guest]

--------------

“You make sentimental comments but nothing authoritive.

 

Yes many people have faith in a lot of things. If its sentimental and blind and only scriptures that someone has doctored then its blind faith.

 

I could come with scriptures too. I can call it the Haridham purana. Or the Srimad Haridham. I can claim a lot of things but where am I in the granth raj. The king of books srimad bhagavatam.

 

I had once a swaminarayan devotee come to my house well actually twice and didnt give me any evidence of how great is product was. He didnt like iskcon for some reason and wanted me to leave it and forget about prabhupad.

 

He came with a few people but I had Srimad bhagavatam and prabhupads mercy and all it did was expose him.

 

I mean do you(they) understand that we are not these bodies but spirit souls. I mean i ask this because you say jai hind and they came in saying that leave this gora movement and you are gujurati that is your dharma.

 

My dharma is to serve krsna.

 

Hare Krsna “

 

 

This is what Haridham writes.

 

· First of all Haridham, let me explain that sanatan dharma lies on the foundation of scriptures. If someone creates a scripture that people accept all over the world and even great saints accept it as being of authentic as it parallel to other scriptures such as the Bhagvat, this kind of scripture cannot be one that is said to have been doctored. Swaminarayan Bhagwan has never argued with the Smrutis, Smritis, Upanishads, Bhagvat, Vedas, Purans, etc, instead he has told his followers to accept them all and abide by the rules and regulations for the Kaliyug. This is because rules which could be easily followed in the Dwapar, Tretayug etc will not be able to be followed as easily in the Kaliyug, hence he made a Shikshapatri. The Shikshapatri too is accepted as accordance with Sanatan Dharma (do not forget). The talks of lord Swaminarayan are collected as Vachanamrutam (words of nectar). Swaminarayan (Narayan Muni, Harikrishna, Sahajanand Swami, Ghanshyam) is quoting from the Bhagvat throughout. His coming is within the Vishnu Khand of the Skand Puran, but just as the Brijvasi or even (resides of Gokul) didn’t know of Lord Krishna and his coming or some even failed to recognise him! In the same way people today do not recognise (only God has 16 signs on his feet) Lord Swaminarayan and even of the time he was present in a divine human form.

 

· Secondly like you say someone couldn’t prove to you Swaminarayan was God! Well let me make it clear- God does not need to be proved for anything, according to his grace the people recognise him!

 

· The devotees of Swaminarayan should never tell another devotee of Krishna to fall from his path of devotion and faith. Shree Swaminarayan himself has said in the Vachanamrutam that even if an atheist doesn’t believe in God his mind should not be disturbed let him be. Even Shree Krishna Declares this in the Bhagvat Geeta-

 

“The wise should not unsettle the mind of the ignorant whose knowledge is imperfect.” Bhagvat Geeta – path of the Karma Yoga. (3.29)

 

Therefore the so called ‘devotees’ of Swaminarayan were obviously of no such! They were ignorant. I’m happy that Krishna saved you. There are many sub branches of the Swaminarayan sampraday. They have been corrupted; this was probably one of them (Maninagar sanstha, Akshar Purushottam sanstha Haridham Sekhda Sanstha).

 

· I am aware that we are all souls, here to find the lord and then liberated. Trust me. The devotees of Lord Swaminarayan also know of all this (Maya, Brahm, Parbrahm, Ishvar, Jeev etc). Swaminarayan has explained all this as he was the lord himself why wouldn’t he? The true devotees of the Swaminarayan Sampraday are also revert taught the Kapil Geeta (words of lord Kapil Bhagwan) which explains hoe the millions of Brahmands (universes) were created through Akshar and Purush (Brahm) and Maya. So do not misjudge us! A true devotee is well equipped with the stories of the Lords incarnations as well as his work. We are aware we come alone and go alone. There are also 8.4 million types of beings to which a soul can be born of (cycle of birth and death).

Just like a person says ‘good day’ or ‘how are you?’. These too are issues related to this material world.. in the same way I merely said ‘jai hind’. I was merely referring or bowing to the land that Krishna my lord stepped on. That’s all my friend!

 

· Swaminarayan was born in a Saam vedi Sarvaria Brahmin by birth he didn’t show any Racism (white, black, yellow, brown etc). He had the same Love for all. After all why should he? He created them. He even ate at an untouchables (vaghri) house. Which in them days was said to be a great sin by society. He abolished this caste system within his sampraday and referred to all of them as ‘gods beloved’. He looked beyond whether a devotee was a Gujarati or not. He met Bishop Heber and Sir Malcolm John (East India Company) and presented them with a Shikshapatri in Rajkot India, whom even they have created their own versions of the event and described them as ‘divine work of the lord’, and how they lost sense of all materialistic views of life by simply sighting the lord who they pronounced as ‘swminarain’- Bless them! Their views can also be seen at the Oxford Bodlein Library (UK) along with the Shikshapatri issued by the Lord! The lord also promised them that as long as the East India Company kept his followers in safety they would be able to rule India for as long as they wanted! The descendant of Malcolm John yet visits the Swaminarayan Temple Willesden London on many occasions.

 

· P.S my Dharma is also to serve Krishna! We worship the same lord so why the distance?

 

God Bless all, Jay Shree Swaminarayan, Jay Dwarika Dheesh!

Takecare- ()

 

[Guest guest]

The serial is on air & telelcast by SAB Tv on every Sunday at 9.00 am & repeats on Thursday at 9.30 am & on Sunday at 5.30 p.m and on ZEE Tv international (UK-USA) every sunday

 

http://www.jaiswaminarayanserial.com/

[Guest guest]

 

First of all Haridham, let me explain that sanatan dharma lies on the foundation of scriptures. If someone creates a scripture that people accept all over the world and even great saints accept it as being of authentic as it parallel to other scriptures such as the Bhagvat,

 

 

 

No, no, no, no, no. This is a typical iskcon/hindu/vivekananda argument.

 

sruti is NOT created by anyone. It is apaurusheya; therein lies the basis of its authority. smRti-shAstra may be written by men or even devas or even the Lord Himself, but these are only acceptable to the extent that they support and do not contradict sruti. These are the A-B-C's of vedAnta.

 

Your argument that Swaminarayan's writings should be accepted as scripture because they are accepted all over the world is ludicrous. The only people "all over the world" who accept this as scripture are already Swaminarayan followers! So that is nothing more than circular logic.

[Haridham]

pound on haridham night.

 

Well, I knew this was going to blow up into something else. There is nothing else I can possibly say or "proove" here because maybe i dont have the backup or maybe the backup isnt sufficient enough.

 

Anyways....I should bow out and just focus on my spiritual life.

[Guest guest]

Typed by a guest-

 

 

No, no, no, no, no. This is a typical iskcon/hindu/vivekananda argument.

 

sruti is NOT created by anyone. It is apaurusheya; therein lies the basis of its authority. smRti-shAstra may be written by men or even devas or even the Lord Himself, but these are only acceptable to the extent that they support and do not contradict sruti. These are the A-B-C's of vedAnta.

 

Your argument that Swaminarayan's writings should be accepted as scripture because they are accepted all over the world is ludicrous. The only people "all over the world" who accept this as scripture are already Swaminarayan followers! So that is nothing more than circular logic.

 

 

--------------------

who said that the Sruti is created by someone? I didn’t. What are you on about guest?

 

I am not arguing that the scriptures of the Swaminarayan sampraday SHOULD be accepted by everyone!

 

I am arguing that the scriptures of the Swaminarayan Sampraday are WORTHY OF BEING ACCEPTED throughout the world!

 

God bless you, I am not forcing you to anything. Lord is easily attainable. Do as you wish. Like wise so will I by worshipping Shree Swaminarayan as supreme God. He is the Lord of all!

 

Jay Swaminarayan!

Nar Narayan Dev Ki jay!

LakshmiNarayan Dev Ki Jay!

Jay Dwarika Dheesh!

Kashtbhanjan Hanumanji Maharaj Ki Jay!

Vigna Vinayak dev Ki Jay!

 

[Guest guest]

 

pound on haridham night.

 

 

 

Don't expect me to feel sorry for you. You have a tendency to criticize things you don't understand, right up to and including other Vaishnava traditions. It is people like you who give a bad name to the organizations from which they come.

 

"As you sow, so shall you reap." Consider that. Another point to consider is, "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones." Remember that one next time you doubt someone's "avatar."

 

 

Anyways....I should bow out and just focus on my spiritual life.

 

 

Yes, that is wise. You'll gain more by that approach than by criticizing things you obviously don't understand.

[Guest guest]

 

who said that the Sruti is created by someone? I didn’t. What are you on about guest?

 

I am not arguing that the scriptures of the Swaminarayan sampraday SHOULD be accepted by everyone!

 

I am arguing that the scriptures of the Swaminarayan Sampraday are WORTHY OF BEING ACCEPTED throughout the world!

 

 

 

 

The scriptures of Swaminarayan "sampraday" are NOT worthy of being accepted throughout the world, especially not in toto, since they obviously speak of some things (like the Swaminarayana "incarnation") which are not spoken of in shruti, purAna, itihAsa, etc.

 

Just because a given text says many good things which are in accord with shruti, this does not excuse its excesses, such as in predicting an unheard of "avatar."

 

Generally, this is the trick which some religious groups use. They create "scriptures" which are 99% in accord with shruti (saying things like "do puja,be vegetarian," etc which no one can disagree with), and then sneak something else into them which is unfounded (i.e. "our guru is the incarnation of Krishna") and argue for its acceptance also since the other 99% is acceptable.

 

And i note that you have said nothing in response to my correction of your "evidence" from skAndha purAna. Feel free to worship Swaminarayan as an "incarnation." Just realize there is no shAstric evidence for it whatsoever. Not in the Vedas. Not in the Upanishads. Not in the mahAbhArata. And not in the purAna-s.

 

 

 

 

 

[Haridham]

Don't expect me to feel sorry for you. You have a tendency to criticize things you don't understand, right up to and including other Vaishnava traditions. It is people like you who give a bad name to the organizations from which they come.

 

wow. Compassion is a vaisnava quality.

 

 

"As you sow, so shall you reap." Consider that. Another point to consider is, "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones." Remember that one next time you doubt someone's "avatar."

 

Yes, I will accept anyone's avatar blindley.

 

Yes, that is wise. You'll gain more by that approach than by criticizing things you obviously don't understand

 

I understood what I needed to understand. Anger is not a spiritual qaulity.

 

I bow to my lord sri krsna and HIS Avatars that are mentioned in the srimad bhagavatam.

 

Vancha Kalpa.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

 

wow. Compassion is a vaisnava quality.

 

 

 

So is humility. Do remember that next time you start making fun of customs you don't understand.

 

 

Yes, I will accept anyone's avatar blindley.

 

 

 

You already accept your own avatar blindly. So why criticize someone else's blind acceptance? That is known as hypocrisy.

 

 

I understood what I needed to understand. Anger is not a spiritual qaulity.

 

 

 

So when you propagate adharma, and someone corrects you, just accuse them of anger. You see, if you actually had a trace of humility in you, you would stop trying to cover up for your own mistakes. Instead, you would admit them and apologize.

 

Who are you to speak of Vaishnava qualities? You make fun of any religion that isn't your own (with the possible exception of Christianity I suppose), and then when your bad behavior is pointed out, you pretend to be a victim.

 

This is childish. I very much doubt you have actually read anything of your guru's books. Certainly it does not seem you have assimilated anything practical from them.

 

There isn't much else I can say here. I'm not in the mood for a "yes you did"/"no I didn't!" conversation. You obviously lack the discipline to control your words and the humility to admit your mistake.

 

Feel free to complain about how you are being victimized. Just realize that you are only convincing yourself; don't take my lack of response as acquiescence.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Guest says-

 

And i note that you have said nothing in response to my correction of your "evidence" from skAndha purAna. Feel free to worship Swaminarayan as an "incarnation." Just realize there is no shAstric evidence for it whatsoever. Not in the Vedas. Not in the Upanishads. Not in the mahAbhArata. And not in the purAna-s.

 

well dear guest! Shlok 43 in the Skand Puran mentioned even by yourself earlier-says it all for us Swaminarayan devotees. Because we know the leelas that Swaminarayan bhagwan created. And only God has these attributes. No mortal or aksharmukt can. Therefore i do not have to prove anything to people like you, who are disgracing such gods incarnation. when your life comes to a end and bless you to get the lords divine abode, there you will realise truth. that Swaminarayan was supreme. Because he is. I will say no more and no one in this world can move a fraction of my devotion to lord swaminarayan as God. I have faith he will come to collect me, and i pray to the same, Shree Krishna (swaminarayan) that he will redeem me and shower his grace upon me. I created this thread and now i will end it here. I was hoping some vaishnavs would understand the concepts of such a thread, yet i am still thinking that some people still are not aware of God and his way of working in different ways just for his devotees.

 

Jay Shree Krishna