Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Guest guest]

See the technique of our esteemed victor. When presented with actual teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the very title of this very long topic, he accuses me of presenting "theoretical concepts". So, please, disregard the teachings of "The Science of Self Realization", because that was way back then, written by the guy in the limo, and it just deals with theoretical concepts anyway. Actual truth, tattwa, comes from practicality of our esteemed victor. All glories.

 

Typical, found in all the posts.

 

mahak

[theist]

 

CC very clearly states that someone may chant the Holy Name for hundreds of lifetimes but if they do not follow the proper method of devotional service they will not attain the goal of life:

 

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Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.16

bahu janma kare yadi śravaṇa, kīrtana

tabu ta' nā pāya kṛṣṇa-pade prema-dhana

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

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Therefore the Acaryas recommend that people accept initiation according to the established method given in the scriptures. But if you or anyone else simply love to chant Harinam then I'm not opposing that. I merely point out this verse in CC saying that it may take a person hundreds of lifetimes to attain Krishna Prema.

So chant without offenses. That is hardly a point of contention. No one is advocating offensive chanting. The continued attempt to indicate the Holy Name as insufficient in itself for God realization is doomed to failure.

 

It is admitted (again) that other limbs are helpful for those of us who have no taste to chant purely or continuously. But that is no fault of the Holy Name, that fault lies in our own heart.

 

And one should not think his offering flowers is on a pure platform if his chanting is not also pure.

 

Same with a formal initiation ceremony. Just a shadow of real initiation. The substance of diksa is defined by Jiva Gosvami. Are we to look to shadows forever never catching the substance?

 

And what is proper devotional service? Let's look at this carefully Muralidhar. I see improper devotional service as the form of bhakti being acted out without the substance of bhakti. An example would be mayavadis who think they are engaging in bhakti while all the while thinking that they will discover that ultimately they are Krsna. Or those that chant Hare Krsna thinking it to be only a pious activity. Chanting with attachment to that attitude or with other offenses can never fructify into Love for Krsna even if one chants for billions of lifetimes.

 

Ultimately one must accept the Holy Name from Krsna's devotee with Vaisnava siddhanta to gain Krsna preme.

 

What is your definition of pure devotional service?

[theist]

Quote:

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You call CC Madhya-15.108 a random quote!?

CC Madhya 15.108: "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [caṇḍāla] can be delivered.

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Theist, it doesn't make sense to quote just this verse and to disregard Adi 8.16-18

 

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CC Ādi 8.16: If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

CC Ādi 8.17: "By cultivating philosophical knowledge one can understand his spiritual position and thus be liberated, and by performing sacrifices and pious activities one can achieve sense gratification in a higher planetary system, but the devotional service of the Lord is so rare that even by executing hundreds and thousands of such sacrifices one cannot obtain it."

CC Ādi 8.18: If a devotee wants liberation or material sense gratification from the Lord, Kṛṣṇa immediately delivers it, but pure devotional service He keeps hidden.

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I see no conflict. It is exactly saying what I posted in my reply to you above. If you see a conflict between these verses I suggest the conflict is in your perception of what is being said.

 

Hare Krsna

 

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[krsna]

1. Prabhupada's definition of diksa a. "Diksa actually means initiating the disciple with transcendental knowledge by which all material contamination is destroyed." Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 4:111 purport)

b. "In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation MEANS receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness." (C.C. Madhya, 9.61, purport)

 

c. "The spiritual master can be compared to the lower kindling stick, the disciple to the upper kindling stick, and the instruction given by the guru to the third stick placed in between. The transcendental knowledge communicated from guru to disciple is compared to the fire arising from the contact of these, which burns the darkness of ignorance to ashes, bringing great happiness both to guru and disciple." (SB 11.10.12)

 

2. Jiva Goswami's definition of diksa "Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." (Bhakti-sandarbha 283; C.C. Madhya 15:108 purport)

 

3. Sri Krishna's explanation for approaching a bonafide spiritual master is to acquire transcendental knowledge:

 

O chastiser of the enemy, the sacrifice performed in knowledge is better than the mere sacrifice of material possessions. After all, O son of Prtha, all sacrifices of work culminate in transcendental knowledge.

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

Having obtained real knowledge from a self-realized soul, you will never fall again into such illusion, for by this knowledge you will see that all living beings are but part of the Supreme, or, in other words, that they are Mine.

Even if you are considered to be the most sinful of all sinners, when you are situated in the boat of transcendental knowledge you will be able to cross over the ocean of miseries.

As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

In this world, there is nothing so sublime and pure as transcendental knowledge. Such knowledge is the mature fruit of all mysticism. And one who has become accomplished in the practice of devotional service enjoys this knowledge within himself in due course of time.

A faithful man who is dedicated to transcendental knowledge and who subdues his senses is eligible to achieve such knowledge, and having achieved it he quickly attains the supreme spiritual peace.

(Bhagavad-gita As It Is 4-33-39)

[muralidhar_das]

 

And what is proper devotional service? Let's look at this carefully Muralidhar. I see improper devotional service as the form of bhakti being acted out without the substance of bhakti. An example would be mayavadis who think they are engaging in bhakti while all the while thinking that they will discover that ultimately they are Krsna. Or those that chant Hare Krsna thinking it to be only a pious activity. Chanting with attachment to that attitude or with other offenses can never fructify into Love for Krsna even if one chants for billions of lifetimes.

 

Ultimately one must accept the Holy Name from Krsna's devotee with Vaisnava siddhanta to gain Krsna preme.

 

What is your definition of pure devotional service?

 

Suddha bhakti. The type of bhakti performed by Prahlad, Arjuna, Uddhava etc.

 

 

CC Madhya 23.3: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu continued, "Now hear, O Sanātana, about the result of devotional service, which is love of Godhead, life's ultimate goal. One who hears this description will be enlightened in the transcendental mellows of devotional service.

CC Madhya 23.4: "When affection for Kṛṣṇa becomes deeper, one attains love of Godhead in devotional service. Such a position is called sthāyi-bhāva, permanent enjoyment of the mellows of devotional service to Kṛṣṇa.

CC Madhya 23.5: "'When devotional service is executed on the transcendental platform of pure goodness, it is like a sun-ray of love for Kṛṣṇa. At such a time, devotional service causes the heart to be softened by various tastes, and one is then situated in bhāva [emotion].'

CC Madhya 23.6: "Bhāva [emotion] has two different symptoms — constitutional and marginal. Now, My dear Sanātana, listen to the symptoms of love.

CC Madhya 23.7: "'When that bhāva softens the heart completely, becomes endowed with a great feeling of possessiveness in relation to the Lord and becomes very much condensed and intensified, it is called prema [love of Godhead] by learned scholars.

CC Madhya 23.8: "'When one develops an unflinching sense of ownership or possessiveness in relation to Lord Viṣṇu, or, in other words, when one thinks Viṣṇu and no one else to be the only object of love, such an awakening is called bhakti [devotion] by exalted persons like Bhīṣma, Prahlāda, Uddhava and Nārada.'

 

 

 

Pure bhakti:

when one thinks Viṣṇu and no one else to be the only object of love

 

that is, when someone is not attached to their body or anything to do with their body, but their attachment is only for Krishna and his pure devotees, that is pure devotion.

 

Continuing our reading of CC, we then see this:

 

 

kona bhagya kona jivera sraddha yadi haya

tabe sei jiva sadhu-sanga je karaya

sadhu-sanga haite haya sravana-kirtana

sadhana-bhaktye haya sarvanartha-nivartana

anartha-nivrtti haile bhaktaye nistha haya

nistha haite sravanadye ruci upajaya

ruci haite bhaktye haya asakti pracura

asakti haite cite janme krsne prity-ankura

sei bhava gadha haile dhare prema-nama

sei prema prayojana sravanananda dhama

 

 

"If, by good fortune, a living entity develops faith (sraddha) in Krsna, then he begins to associate with devotees (sadhu-sanga). From the association of devotees, one begins devotional service by hearing and chanting about Krsna. This is called sadhana-bhakti and through it one becomes free from all unwanted contaminations (anartha-nivrtti). When one is freed from all unwanted contamination, he becomes steadfast in his devotional practices (nistha). When fixed in devotional practice, a taste (ruci) is awakened. After such taste is awakened, a deep attachment (asakti) arises, and from that attachment the seed of love for Krsna grows in the heart. When the ecstatic emotional stage intensifies, it is called love of Godhead. Such love is life's ultimate goal and the reservoir of all pleasure." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 23.9-13)

 

 

 

The stage of service called bhajana-kriya means that you do the activity (kriya) of bhajana, or in other words you do the work of chanting Krishna's name.

 

This stage is the stage you enter after taking diksa. I can post the statements that confirm this. Do I need to?

 

But anyhow, when you begin bhajana-kriya you are not filled with transcendental knowledge (divya-jnana) rather you are working towards getting that. You have a small vision of divya-jnana but the full thing is not revealed until you are free from anarthas (anartha nivritti).

 

Diksa is the dawning of active service, not the full manifestation or attainment of "divine realization". See Haridasa Thakurs' explanation of "namabhasa" to understand this more clearly.

 

bye

[theist]

Sorry, quoting you I made the mistake of saying pure instead of proper. I am unclear on how chanting Hare Krsna could be consider something other than proper devotional service.

[muralidhar_das]

There are three types of bhakti.

 

Sadhana bhakti, Bhava Bhakti, Prema Bhakti.

 

All forms of bhakti are proper. But sadhana bhakti is the "practice" of service and bhava bhakti is the awakenment of Love of God. Prema Bhakti is the full manifestation of Love of God.

 

Sadhana bhakti involves chanting Krishna-nama but that chanting is being done by people who by definition are not yet in the stage of having "LOve of God" and "divya-jnana". If they get Love of God they are not doing sadhana bhakti anymore, they are situated in Bhava.

[stonehearted]

 

Thanks for the heads-up.

 

I'll make sure to walk out the door and wave as you go by.

Well, it's not as though there'll be any motorcade.

 

 

Have you ever been to Gator land before?

Once, in the early '60s. Never wanted to return. I was there on vacation with my family, and I found the weather awful--too hot and humid, too many mosquitos. And I lived in the Wahsington, DC area, where there's no shortage of heat, humidity, and mosquitos in the summer.

 

 

When you get here you must cough up the 5 bucks to see Kanapaha Botanical Gardens and also spend at least one day at Crescent Beach.

 

Maybe you are too "advanced" for such worldly pleasures?

Well, the botanical gardens had better be good, and the beach had better have waves. I don't know what would be too "advanced" for such things if they're worth the trip.

[theist]

 

There are three types of bhakti.

 

Sadhana bhakti, Bhava Bhakti, Prema Bhakti.

 

All forms of bhakti are proper. But sadhana bhakti is the "practice" of service and bhava bhakti is the awakenment of Love of God. Prema Bhakti is the full manifestation of Love of God.

 

Sadhana bhakti involves chanting Krishna-nama but that chanting is being done by people who by definition are not yet in the stage of having "LOve of God" and "divya-jnana". If they get Love of God they are not doing sadhana bhakti anymore, they are situated in Bhava.

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

So simply by chanting the holy name the nine processes of proper sadhana bhakti can be fulfilled. So what is in 8.16 that you think contradicts this?

 

And this chanting of the holy name is not dependent on initiation or the purification process prior to initiation.

 

Madhya 15.108 - “One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

Madhya 15.109 - “By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to Krishna, and thus dormant love for Krishna is awakened.

 

Madhya 15.110 - “‘The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self- sufficient.’”

 

So the proposition that one needs an embodied guru to initiate one into the maha mantra before one receive the full benefits of love for Krsna is bogus and is currently being used primarily as a control mechanism.

[Gaurasundara]

Theist, I don't know why you're getting angry, abusive and defensive. I was not insulting you at all, but your own rude attacks to perceived insults are not very heartening or exemplary Vaishnava behaviour either. Come to think of it, very few people in this discussion are behaving like proper Vaishnavas anyway, which is why I decided to withdraw from this argument, which I perceive as nonsensical in it's very premise. I don't think matters of siddhanta can be properly discussed when too many people have hot tempers. My own experience with these forums is repeated endlessly with the insight that too many people are here to teach, not to learn. It's pretty easy to see the effect of Kali-yuga when people make assumptions about other people's beliefs or put words in their mouths which they never said, nor did I think that mocking someone's physical disability was a strategy of "Vaishnava" polemics or that saying things that are totally contrary to the spirit of Mahaprabhu's boundless heart were in vogue, but hey..

 

----

 

Back to the topic matters, I thought yesterday that the dichotomy exists in understanding the difference between theology and practice. The theology of the Holy Name is that it will do everything for you. The practice, on the other hand, is something that is a requirement. Hence, we hold the theology respectfully on our heads while we humbly practice the procedures as followed by the mahajans.

 

So while we theologically accept that the Holy Name can do everything, we practically follow in the footsteps of previous Gosvamis and Acharyas in the matter of accepting a guru, receiving his shelter, accepting diksa and siksa from him, and so on. To not do this is actually an offence unto Mahaprabhu, Gosvamis, Acharyas, and the Guru-principle. I suppose it is redundant to say that it is also an offence against the Holy Name..

[muralidhar_das]

 

So simply by chanting the holy name the nine processes of proper sadhana bhakti can be fulfilled. So what is in 8.16 that you think contradicts this?

simply by PURE chanting of the holy name the nine processes of proper sadhana bhakti can be fulfilled

 

That is the point I'm making

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.16

bahu janma kare yadi śravaṇa, kīrtana

tabu ta' nā pāya kṛṣṇa-pade prema-dhana

SYNONYMS

bahu — many; janma — births; kare — does; yadi — if; śravaṇa — hearing; kīrtana — chanting; tabu — still; ta' — in spite of; nā — does not; pāya — get; kṛṣṇa-pade — unto the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa; prema-dhana — love of Godhead.

TRANSLATION

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

 

 

Look at the Bengali and study what Kaviraj Gosai's actual words are. In fact he doesn't mention the ten offences at all. The point Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami is actually making - try and understand what he is actually saying.

Here are the two verses that precede verse 8.16. The meaning becomes clear if you study what he says.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.14

yadi vā tārkika kahe, — tarka se pramāṇa

tarka-śāstre siddha yei, sei sevyamāna

Logicians say that unless you have UNDERSTANDING and REALIZATION you cannot really worship any Deity. (in other words, if you are a blind follower with no realization you don't really know God and your ideas are shallow)

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.15

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra

vicāra karite citte pābe camatkāra

The mercy (daya) of Sri Chaitanya - understand and realize that! (karaha vicara)

Understanding that, in your heart (citte) you will find something great and wonderful (camatkara)

Without deep realization, our chanting can continue as a kind of muttering for hundreds of lifetimes.

 

Here is the commentary to this of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

 

 

Engage yourself in the study of the kindest teachings of Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya. Your heart will be filled with admiration. Without the enquiry after the Supreme Reality, innumerable number of births spent in hearing and chanting will not be able to fetch Divine Love at the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna

 

Can you see what he is saying?

 

We need to REALIZE or UNDERSTAND the merciful gift of Sri Gauranga.

 

If we don't have a proper understanding of the teachings of Sri Chaitanya but instead we simply make the shadow (abhasa) of the sound of "Hari" on our lips, we will not attain Krishna's feet.

 

And right now I am not chanting the Pure Name. Not 16 rounds of it. Not one. Not even one Nama. I am a neophyte.

 

By Pure Chanting a person is doing greater service than by following the other 8 forms of sadhana. But the Chanting must be Pure.

[theist]

 

nor did I think that mocking someone's physical disability was a strategy of "Vaishnava" polemics or that saying things that are totally contrary to the spirit of Mahaprabhu's boundless heart were in vogue, but hey..

 

 

And I mocked someone's disability when..?

[theist]

 

Nothing wrong with being uninitiated (I'm uninitiated so I'm in the same boat) but you wouldn't catch me presenting a slant on Gaudiya siddhanta that looks as if diksa is unnecessary. For me, that is a betrayal of the path that the mahajanas trod. They all took "ritual" diksa.

 

 

Again go do it then. Go get your ritual diksa and then you can preach it. Preaching it to me while neglecting it yourself is...well you know what it is.

[theist]

As I mentioned in a previous post when one has shadow realization all his devotional practices are shadow in nature. Shadow offering of flowers, shadow service, shadow understanding of the scriptures and not just shadow chanting.

 

So why could one not engage in just shadow chanting and reap the rewards of all the other processes of proper devotional service? I accept Lord Casitanyas statement that chanting fulfills all the processes of devotional service to be applicble on every level and not just referring to suddha bhakti. What makes shadow aroti superior to shadow chanting?

 

More on point with this thread,what makes shadow acceptance of a spiritual master superior to shadow chanting of the name of Krsna?

 

So many people go through a ritual ceremony symbolic of actual diksa and come out thinking they have by that act accepted a spiritual master. I question that belief.

[krsna]

 

As I mentioned in a previous post when one has shadow realization all his devotional practices are shadow in nature. Shadow offering of flowers, shadow service, shadow understanding of the scriptures and not just shadow chanting.

 

So why could one not engage in just shadow chanting and reap the rewards of all the other processes of proper devotional service? I accept Lord Casitanyas statement that chanting fulfills all the processes of devotional service to be applicble on every level and not just referring to suddha bhakti. What makes shadow aroti superior to shadow chanting?

 

More on point with this thread,what makes shadow acceptance of a spiritual master superior to shadow chanting of the name of Krsna?

 

So many people go through a ritual ceremony symbolic of actual diksa and come out thinking they have by that act accepted a spiritual master. I question that belief.

 

 

 

Transcendental science (suddha bhakti) does not depend on academic qualification:pray:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=quote>"Actually, you’ll find that our Kīrtanānanda Swami was in Vṛndāvana.

There are many devotees. There are many devotees; they’re illiterate

practically. They do not know what is Vedānta-sūtra. But still, by

their sincere devotional service they’re very much elevated. What to

speak of others, Gaura-kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja. Gaura-kiśora

dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, he was illiterate. He could not sign even his

name. But he was so spiritually elevated that my spiritual master,

who was the topmost scholar of his time, he accepted him as

spiritual master. What is the reason? The reason is that this

transcendental science does not depend on academic qualification.

It is, it is not that because one is very, academically very qualified,

he’ll become a devotee. No. The secret is… That is given in the Vedic

literatures: yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā." </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.11

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

New Vrindaban, June 10, 1969

[Guest guest]

Muralidhar prabhu,

 

That was the perfect response. It just doesn't help getting into conversations such as this with people that have made their minds up. better to just leave it at that.

 

 

Fine theist, forget it.

[krsna]

 

Again, the revisionists do not engage in discussions, they bully their way by never listening, only reading their own posts full of what they think.

 

So, you can discuss your ideas that Srila Prabhupada had nothing to do with his disciples, that he was much too important for us. If that were the case, I would have rejected him 39 years ago.

 

But guru tattwa, as taught by him is available.

 

 

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

 

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

 

The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness."

 

mahaksadasa: If one has no relationship with guru, if guru has no relationship with disciple, then there is no guru, no disciple.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada's

Disappearance Day, Lecture

--

Los Angeles, December 9, 1969 [691209DB.LA]

 

 

 

Who Knew That I Will Come To His Protection?

 

 

 

 

 

Fortunately,

 

that year was my birth year,(1896)

 

and by Krsna's arrangement,

 

we came in contact.

 

 

I was born in a different family,

 

my Guru Maharaja was born in a different family.

 

 

Who knew that I will come to his protection?

 

Who knew that I would come in America?

 

Who knew that you American boys will come to me?

 

 

These are all Krsna's arrangement.

We cannot understand how things are taking place."

[Devarsirat]

In the Bhagavad Gita it is stated that The Supersoul appears to us externally in the form of the spiritual master, why? because we can not perceive "hear and see" the supersoul with our material ears and eyes, but we can see the spiritual master.

 

CC Ādi 1.58: Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Kṛṣṇa Himself.

 

CC Ādi 1.59: "One should therefore avoid bad company and associate only with devotees. With their realized instructions, such saints can cut the knot connecting one with activities unfavorable to devotional service."

 

CC Ādi 1.60: "The spiritually powerful message of Godhead can be properly discussed only in a society of devotees, and it is greatly pleasing to hear in that association. If one hears from devotees, the way of transcendental experience quickly opens, and gradually one attains firm faith that in due course develops into attraction and devotion."

 

CC Ādi 1.61: A pure devotee constantly engaged in the loving service of the Lord is identical with the Lord, who is always seated in his heart.

 

CC Ādi 1.62: "Saints are My heart, and only I am their hearts. They do not know anyone but Me, and therefore I do not recognize anyone besides them as Mine."

 

CC Ādi 1.63: "Saints of your caliber are themselves places of pilgrimage. Because of their purity, they are constant companions of the Lord, and therefore they can purify even the places of pilgrimage."

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is not physically present anymore, but there are others who can function as siksa gurus to some and to others as initiating spiritual masters.

 

There are certainly such rare persons present right now on this planet, they have to be, so that a sincere soul can approach Krishna trough them.

 

Krishna says..tat vidhi pranipatena, pariprasnena sevaya....

 

Find a genuine spiritual master, ask questions, serve and so on, its all very clear

[Guest guest]

Jaya Gurudeva,

 

What is clear to me is that as long as there are sincere and qualified disciples of a Mahabhagavat Acharya Shaktyavesh Avatar and Jagat Guru such as His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, those disciples are prepared to assist any Jiva.

 

After a Jiva is transcendentally initiated by Srila Prabhupada's transcendental sound vibration, that Jiva can find the full shelter of a culture of spiritual life. Srila Prabhupada was so elevated as Jagat Guru, that he was personally authorized and thus empowered by the Lord to make a great commitment to those who would be attracted to his message, teachings, and discipline after his dissappearance.

 

He committed to formally accept disciples as long as there was someone who would be chaste to his methods and instructions for accepting qualified candidates. He explained that such knowledgeable disciples would be empowered as ritvik priests to give formal initiation on his behalf. He knew thousands, or millions, would be attracted to the comprehensive teachings and sadhana practice that the Lord offered through him to the Western world, and all the universe.

 

Such an empowered devotee gives Transcendental Diksa to Jivas when they see his visage on a book or picture, or here his voice chanting the maha mantra when a devotees car drives by, speakers blaring. So many underestimate the power of Sukriti in his momentary Darshan.

 

It is just a matter of time between that moment and the formal diksa which has ACTUAL REAL VALUE for most Jivas as part of their lifelong sadhana practice.

 

The good Lord thought of many who would come later, and made sure the blueprints were there for a total spiritual culture, including the ritviks of the Acharya.

 

It is too bad so many cannot see this sublime mercy program, but then again the Lord himself says one in a million, and only one in that million will know him in truth, and that only starts when one knows the Acharya mercy in truth.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

that was very sweet and nice....

Sincerity is the only price to pay.

Formalities are nothing compared to sincerity or love.

[Guest guest]

So what's the difference between a rtivik representative and a regular guru representative? If a dedicated devotee must always be a rtvik which I'm assume that your defining as in a lower postion to a regular guru then why would they permanently be relegated to that position in their current lifetime. Rtvik would seem to make sense if you look at the situation from a static conception of reality. But is reality static or dynamic?

[Guest guest]

Jaya Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

Srila Prabhupada made it very clear that even a child who repeats what they know about the science of Krsna in a way similar to this...

 

"Krsna is the Supreme Personality of the Spiritual World, we are his servants, we can serve his pleasure and ours by chanting the "Hare Krsna" mantra."

 

Or "Krsna is God, you are his servant, Chant Hare Krsna and be happy"

 

That the ability to do this makes a person qualified as a Siksa Guru. As long as they do not concoct any other idea. He also mentioned that with advancement, a person may be able to elaborate and explain the science more deeply.

 

So considering that a qualified Brahmana is the Guru of the lower Varnas, we can see how Srila Prabhupada arranged for those trained to be Vaisnava brahmanas were given all relevant Siksa to convey to others, and even the ability to act as Ritvik Priestly representatives of the Acharya in order to continue the formal initiations.

 

Srila Prabhupada stated that he was the Initiator Guru, and that the GBC would be Instructors.

 

Actually, Diksa is given by the Siksa Guru with full faith in the process given by his Guru, who is authorized to give Formal initiation on his behalf.

 

It is the same thing as how Krsna Das Kaviraj actually felt in his heart that he was lower than a worm in stool.

 

How can that be? He is a most exalted Vaisnava. Yet still, this is how he sees himself, and it is real for him.

 

Similarly, any monkey who goes around claiming he is giving Diksa and Siksa is just cheating.

 

The one who feels in his heart that actually, without Srila Prabhupada's authorization through the process given, that he has NO ability to convey transcendental potency through the formal Diksa process...

 

That person is actually a ritvik, fit to make disciples for the Lord.

 

It is so simple.

 

Hare Krsna

 

P.S.

 

I did not mean to imply in my last post that a person who sees Srila Prabhupada's picture automatically receives Diksa. It must be a person who is of the 4 types to approach God. But even the 4 types of inimical persons will get Sukriti, if not Diksa.

[Guest guest]

Total nonsense to think that only Srila Prabhupada can be a genuine spiritual master. Sure enough between all other spiritual masters Srila Prabhupada takes a unique position which is very high in terms of bringing Krishna Consciousness to the west and helping countless souls to become devotees, but He is not the one and only genuine spiritual master.

 

He is my spiritual master, because I have been initiated by Him and He was physically there to accept me for initiation, chastise me, order me to do things, via His ritvik reps at the time.

 

They got their personal instructions directly from Srila Prabhupada to tell me what to do. That was then, but now this is not happening in the ritvik camp.

 

I do not believe for one minute that what a ritvik guru says to a new "initiate"

comes directly from Srila Prabhupada if its anything other then from His books.

 

Book knowledge yes, but other things I doubt come directly from Srila Prabhupada, for the same reason as it is it is stated, that we can not hear or see the supersoul.

 

They can not hear the supersoul but they can hear Prabhupada?

I dont think so, and if they say "we never said we can hear Srila Prabhupada" then what good is your guidance? Because that is the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada used when He was physically present here.

 

The ritvik system at the time was directed by Srila Prabhupada, He gave instructions to the ritviks which acted on His behalf.

 

Even His direct servants and others close to Him at the time where not able to forsee what Srila Prabhupada wanted in particular situations and had to ask Him for directions and that was when He was physically present, they did not dare to take matters into their own hands.

 

But as a ritvik today, you have to do that, take matters into your own hands, by imagining that that is what Srila Prabhupada wants at the time.

 

Srila Prabhupada is not physically present now, so why do the ritviks pretent that they know at any moment what Srila Prabhupada wants?

 

I would have thought that because we can not see The Supersoul to take direct instructions, we also can not see Srila Prabhupada and hear Him giving direct instructions.

 

Will the one who can please step forward....

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada arranged that instructions on how to proceed be given freely for any who would take up the charge.

 

Indeed those who imbibed his instructions present themselves today as servants of his pleasure, and will in time arrange ritvik initiations according to His Grace's will on the matter.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that he gave us all instructions, that they were complete. Logically this includes his instructions regarding initiations in his Society in the future. Specifically how those who were not yet hearing him internally as Supersoul so perfectly, would be empowered to carry on his mission with integrity and allow newcomers to receive and engage in the process of Transcendental Diksa under his guidance through his chaste Ritviks.

 

This does not exclude the possibility that many devotees on various stages of devotional service will decide to branch off and be Guru and accept students.

 

What it does offer is that through any disciple willing to follow strictly and sincerely, they may offer a link to direct service to a pure devotee to any newcomer.

 

Paradoxically, the only way for one initiated by Srila Prabhupada to offer a formal link to the shelter of the Mahabhagavat Acharya, sealing the deal between ACBhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and the new disciple for eternity, is to always accept the position of Ritvik rep, and never once in the mind consider he is personally capable of awarding Diksa on his own speculative qualification.

 

One can make advancement only according to and up to the level of one's guru. Thus Srila Prabhupada's injunction to accept only an uttama adhikari Spiritual master, and that lower grades are insufficient to bring us to our goal of Krsna Prema.

 

So after admonishing like that, does anyone present believe he would then walk off the scene and leave so many to the lesser adhikari's, or worse, the wolves?

 

No, seeing lack of fulfillment of the sadhana process in most of his disciples, he made the transcendental arrangement to at least give a real chance that some humble self-effacing disciples might pass the knowledge of what it means to SERVE HUMBLY AND CHASTELY EVERY ORDER. That knowledge is the goal of the reading the Vedas like Bhagavad Gita, performing Sadhana under regulation, etc.

 

That knowledge when imbibed by a person shows they have received what the disciplic succession really has to pass on.

 

Acting on that knowledge is the success. The successful conclusion of the neophyte stage of Krsna Consciousness, and the successful beginning of an eternity of service, unalloyed by disobedience to the Guru.

 

Just remember that, and the Ritvik system makes perfect sense. It was a test of chastity. A test to see who has faith that the transcendental current of Sruti can flow according to the sweet will of the Acharya's arrangement regardless of its apparently unusual form.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guruvani]

Before we can understand WHO can be spiritual master, we have to understand what is a spiritual master.

 

A spiritual master is is not manufactured in the act of some clueless neophyte asking for initiation from an ISKCON sannyasis so he can get a seat at the prasadam hall and a bunk in the ahsram.

 

A spiritual master is a Goswami in the true sense who has conquered the senses and attained the level of brahma-bhuta.

 

It's obvious that many of the past ISKCON gurus were not brahma-bhuta and that many of the current gurus are not brahma-bhuta.

 

So, before they can act as guru they must become spiritual master and attain the brahma-bhuta platform.

 

 

<center>Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation</center>

 

TEXT 54

 

 

brahma-bhutah prasannatma

na socati na kanksati

samah sarvesu bhutesu

mad-bhaktim labhate param

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

brahma-bhutah--being one with the Absolute; prasanna-atma--fully joyful; na--never; socati--laments; na--never; kanksati--desires; samah--equally disposed; sarvesu--all; bhutesu--living entities; mat-bhaktim--My devotional service; labhate--gains; param--transcendental.

 

TRANSLATION

 

One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.

 

PURPORT

 

To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhuta, oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there, in a higher spiritual sense.

In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Krsna consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Krsna consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Krsna, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in the service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is a fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma-bhuta stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like broken serpents' teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuntha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age.