Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Shakti-Fan]

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Self-effulgent and Self-evident

Student: How will we recognize the guru if he appears before us in another form or in a different body?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya argued that Sri Caitanyadeva could not have been an incarnation. Gopinatha Acarya told him, "You do not know the sastra. No, no," Sarvabhauma said, "In the scriptures it is mentioned that the Lord does not appear in Kali-yuga, but only in three ages and is therefore known as Triyuga. " Gopinatha Acarya replied, "You think that vou know so much about sastra, but in the Srimad-Bhagavatam and Mahabharata, there is direct mention of the avatara of Kali-yuga. Have you no knowledge, no recognition of that?" Then Sarvabhauma apparently defeated, said, "You go and take prasadam, and afterwards come and teach me." Then Gopinatha said, "Not by the dint of one's study or intelligence can one understand God, but only through his grace" (athapi te deva padambhuja-dvaya-prasada 1esanugrhita eva hi ).

Then Sarvabhauma said, "You say that you have that grace, and I do not? What is your reasoning behind this? You say that you have the grace of the Lord because you say that he is an incarnation. And because I can't give recognition to that, I have no grace? What is the proof of this?" Then Gopinatha Acarya replied, acarya kahe "vastu-visaye haya vastu-jnana vastu-tattva-jnana haya krpate pramana (Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 6. 89). "It is evident that I have the grace of the Lord, because I know him, and that you have not, because you deny Him." The answer to your question is given here. Our own inner experience, our internal satisfaction, our connection or acquaintance with reality is the real evidence; nothing external can give any real proof.

Our guru maharaja gave the example that if one is born in the darkness of a dungeon, and someone proposes "Let us go see the sun," then the prisoner will carry a lantern in his hand saying "Oh, you will show me the sun?"

"Yes. Come with me. Leave your lantern behind. No light is necessary to see the sun."

"Are you trying to fool me? Nothing can be seen without the help of a light."

His friend will catch him and forcibly take the prisoner into the sunlight. "Do you see the sun?" And the prisoner will say, "Oh, this is the sun! By sunlight alone we can see the sun." One will have that sort of experience when he comes in connection with the truth. Neither calculation, nor evidence, nor witness, but only direct experience is proof that Krsna is there, like the sun.

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said, atma parijnanamayo : what to speak of Krsna, even the conscious unit is self effulgent. A certain section says, "There is God. Surely He exists." Others say, "No, there is no God, He never existed." This quarrel is useless; still it will continue. In a particular section this argument will have no end. Those who have no eyes will be unable to see the sun. They will say there is no sun (mattah para-nistat amsa-lokam ). This misconception will continue for those who deny the existence of both the soul and the Supreme soul. For those who have direct experience, however, there is no question: it exists! But for the owl section who cannot admit the existence of the sun, the sun does not exist. It is something like that. Our own realization of a thing will be the greatest proof of its existence: vastu-tattva-jnana haya krpate.

One may be born blind, but if somehow or other his eyes are opened, he will be astonished to see the particular aspects of the environment. But if one has no vision, he can see no color or figure. Those who have vision will feel, "How can I deny the fact? I have seen it. I am feeling it, it is so magnanimous, so great and so benevolent, I can't deny all these things. You are unfortunate; you cannot see." Some see, some cannot see. In the same place, one can see, another cannot. Those to whom Krsna wishes to reveal himself can see him; others cannot.

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[suchandra]

 

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</td> <td width="585"> Those to whom Krsna wishes to reveal himself can see him; others cannot.

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When Krishna said, "give up all religions and just surrender unto Me", who did it? Nobody, therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared and said, just chant Hare Krishna. Again, who is chanting, almost nobody. We have to understand that we live in a world where people are not at all inclined to accept, even among Vaishnavas, some say, neophyte gurus are ok, reject ritvik.

Or as Prabhupada das Karapurnam explains it, ISKCON is not reformable.

 

 

 

If ISKCON were reformable there would be some merit in the disenfrachised becoming enthused about the possibility of fixing the BBT, re-establishing Gurukula, enacting DOM, etc. However, the 30+ year "actual" record shows that no amount of commentary, contention, conflict and speculative debate by the disenfranchised has brought about any measurable degree of reform. The same record shows that ISKCON has little capacity for internal reform. The conclusion can be drawn that reform has failed and ISKCON will continue to be what it has become under the guidance of the GBC.

When reform fails, what do the disenfranchised do? Should they continue to express their grievances to the world until the end of their lives, or, should they begin some kind of revolution to re-establish the "Neglected Teachings" in the form of a new organization? The famous "Unabomber" Theodore Kaczynski made some interesting points in his Industrial Society and Its Future, in Point 19 of his Manifesto.

He wrote:

Revolution is Easier than Reform

 

140. We hope we have convinced the reader that the system cannot be reformed in a such a way as to reconcile freedom with technology. The only way out is to dispense with the industrial-technological system altogether. This implies revolution, not necessarily an armed uprising, but certainly a radical and fundamental change in the nature of society.

 

 

141. People tend to assume that because a revolution involves a much greater change than reform does, it is more difficult to bring about than reform is. Actually, under certain circumstances revolution is much easier than reform. The reason is that a revolutionary movement can inspire an intensity of commitment that a reform movement cannot inspire. A reform movement merely offers to solve a particular social problem. A revolutionary movement offers to solve all problems at one stroke and create a whole new world; it provides the kind of ideal for which people will take great risks and make great sacrifices. For these reasons it would be much easier to overthrow the whole technological system than to put effective, permanent restraints on the development of application of any one segment of technology, such as genetic engineering, but under suitable conditions large numbers of people may devote themselves passionately to a revolution against the industrial-technological system. As we noted in paragraph 132, reformers seeking to limit certain aspects of technology would be working to avoid a negative outcome. But revolutionaries work to gain a powerful reward—fulfillment of their revolutionary vision—and therefore work harder and more persistently than reformers do.

 

 

142. Reform is always restrained by the fear of painful consequences if changes go too far. But once a revolutionary fever has taken hold of a society, people are willing to undergo unlimited hardships for the sake of their revolution. This was clearly shown in the French and Russian Revolutions. It may be that in such cases only a minority of the population is really committed to the revolution, but this minority is sufficiently large and active so that it becomes the dominant force in society. We will have more to say about revolution in paragraphs 180-205.

Srila Prabhupada also wrote a Manifesto outlining the foment of a spiritual revolution. In his 960 pages of "Varnashram Teachings" he elaborated on the creation of an alternative spiritual social system as the remedy for the current dysfunctional global system.

Perhaps it is time for the disenfranchised to take up the banner of cooperation in continuing the revolution begun in our lives by Srila Prabhupada? The first step would be to give up on ISKCON as un-reformable. The second step would be to establish a network of association to bring us back to the basic standards and set out the details of a Vaishnava Revolution. The third step would be to establish a network of Communities that could gradually expand under a common Constitution based on a Federation Model.

Anyone interested?

Prabhupada das Karapurnam

e-mail:prabhupad_dasATshaw.ca

 

 

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada didn't speak in terms of living spiritual master or physical spiritual master etc. etc.

Srila Prabhupada's most common instruction was that, if someone was serious about spiritual life, liberation and devotional service, the person should JOIN ISKCON.

Thus, Srila Prabhupada summed-up all the shastric instructions about taking shelter of a bon-fide spiritual master, inquiring submissively and rendering service unto him in his consistent instruction that serious persons should JOIN ISKCON.

 

This instruction "join ISKCON" expresses Srila Prabhupada's idea that ISKCON is a spiritual society of devotees following the directions of the acharya.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave the advice to "join ISKCON" many times in his books and instructions.

This idea of joining and becoming a "member" of a society of devotees under the guidance of the acharya, most certainly is somewhat of a departure from the more traditional concept of searching out a guru and becoming a direct disciple of the spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada used this terminology over and over again in his books.

 

So, the message he gave in his books was usually more oriented to "joining the society of devotees" under the acharya than in searching around for a guru to take diksha from.

 

In the books of Srila Prabhupada we certainly see a departure from the traditional concept of making an individual effort to search out a spiritual master and become a direct disciple.

 

By joining ISKCON one is entering into a society of Vaishnavas where there are many, many trained and experienced devotees who will in essence be siksha guru to the new members.

 

For those who were in ISKCON during the days of Srila Prabhupada it was quite obvious that all the senior devotees helped to teach and train the new devotees and there was certainly no shortage of more advanced Vaishnavas willing to teach and train new members.

 

So, ISKCON was a society of Vaishnavas where essentially there were siksha gurus everywhere you looked.

 

Srila Prabhupada was the acharya of the society and as such the diksha guru. He even arranged for his delegated representatives to initiate new devotees on his behalf as "members of the society".

 

As siksha gurus and representatives of the acharya, all the senior devotees shared in the purification process of new devotees.

 

As a delegated representative one also assumes the task of dealing with the karma and sinful mentality of new devotees.

 

Really, if we take the teachings of Srila Prabhupada that he gave in his books, we have to see that his idea was about joining the society of devotees following the acharya and not really about individual guruship or individual discipleship apart from the guruship of Srila Prabhupada and the discipleship of all the members of ISKCON.

 

Here is just one of the many examples of Srila Prabhupada emphasizing the society as a whole and not individual guruship of any ISKCON member.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.26.39

 

śrutvā sthūlaḿ tathā sūkṣmaḿ

rūpaḿ bhagavato yatiḥ

sthūle nirjitam ātmānaḿ

śanaiḥ sūkṣmaḿ dhiyā nayed iti

 

SYNONYMS

śrutvā — after hearing of (from the disciplic succession); sthūlam — gross; tathā — as well as; sūkṣmam — subtle; rūpam — form; bhagavataḥ — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; yatiḥ — a sannyāsī or devotee; sthūle — the gross form; nirjitam — conquered; ātmānam — the mind; śanaiḥ — gradually; sūkṣmam — the subtle. spiritual form of the Lord; dhiyā — by intelligence; nayet — one should lead it to; iti — thus.

 

 

TRANSLATION

One who is interested in liberation, who accepts the path of liberation and is not attracted to the path of conditional life, is called yati, or a devotee. Such a person should first control his mind by thinking of the virāṭ-rūpa, the gigantic universal form of the Lord, and then gradually think of the spiritual form of Kṛṣṇa [sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]] after hearing of both forms. Thus one's mind is fixed in samādhi. By devotional service one can then realize the spiritual form of the Lord, which is the destination of devotees. Thus his life becomes successful.

 

PURPORT

It is said, mahat-sevāḿ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ: [SB 5.5.2] if one wants to progress on the path of liberation, he should associate with mahātmās, or liberated devotees, because in such association there is a full chance for hearing, describing and chanting about the name, form, qualities and paraphernalia of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all of which are described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. On the path of bondage, one eternally undergoes the repetition of birth and death. One who desires liberation from such bondage should join the International Society for Krishna Consciousness and thus take advantage of the opportunity to hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from devotees and also explain it to propagate Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

[krsna]

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't speak in terms of living spiritual master or physical spiritual master etc. etc.

Srila Prabhupada's most common instruction was that, if someone was serious about spiritual life, liberation and devotional service, the person should JOIN ISKCON.

Thus, Srila Prabhupada summed-up all the shastric instructions about taking shelter of a bon-fide spiritual master, inquiring submissively and rendering service unto him in his consistent instruction that serious persons should JOIN ISKCON.

 

This instruction "join ISKCON" expresses Srila Prabhupada's idea that ISKCON is a spiritual society of devotees following the directions of the acharya.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave the advice to "join ISKCON" many times in his books and instructions.

This idea of joining and becoming a "member" of a society of devotees under the guidance of the acharya, most certainly is somewhat of a departure from the more traditional concept of searching out a guru and becoming a direct disciple of the spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada used this terminology over and over again in his books.

 

So, the message he gave in his books was usually more oriented to "joining the society of devotees" under the acharya than in searching around for a guru to take diksha from.

 

In the books of Srila Prabhupada we certainly see a departure from the traditional concept of making an individual effort to search out a spiritual master and become a direct disciple.

 

By joining ISKCON one is entering into a society of Vaishnavas where there are many, many trained and experienced devotees who will in essence be siksha guru to the new members.

 

For those who were in ISKCON during the days of Srila Prabhupada it was quite obvious that all the senior devotees helped to teach and train the new devotees and there was certainly no shortage of more advanced Vaishnavas willing to teach and train new members.

 

So, ISKCON was a society of Vaishnavas where essentially there were siksha gurus everywhere you looked.

 

Srila Prabhupada was the acharya of the society and as such the diksha guru. He even arranged for his delegated representatives to initiate new devotees on his behalf as "members of the society".

 

As siksha gurus and representatives of the acharya, all the senior devotees shared in the purification process of new devotees.

 

As a delegated representative one also assumes the task of dealing with the karma and sinful mentality of new devotees.

 

Really, if we take the teachings of Srila Prabhupada that he gave in his books, we have to see that his idea was about joining the society of devotees following the acharya and not really about individual guruship or individual discipleship apart from the guruship of Srila Prabhupada and the discipleship of all the members of ISKCON.

 

Here is just one of the many examples of Srila Prabhupada emphasizing the society as a whole and not individual guruship of any ISKCON member.

Good stuff bro!

Now for something with a little practical application. Let us all give sadhu-sanga or take sadhu-sanga: our birthright!

 

The Dilemma of Association

 

 

BY: NAVA JAUVANA DASA

 

 

 

Jun 3, INDIA (SUN) — The principle of sadhu sanga, association with devotees, is central to the teachings of the acaryas. Srila Prabhupada stressed this principle in his writings and classes.

• "You must live with the devotees, even if you are not satisfied. Any condition, you should be satisfied. Because as soon as you leave the company, you become again rogues, again demons. At least you'll be saved if you keep with the company of the devotees. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvidah. If you give up the company, then you again become rogues and demons. Therefore you must be satisfied, in whatever condition. 'Whatever Krsna has given, that's all Right.' Satisfied. Surrendered to Krsna. And that satisfaction can be achieved only when one is fully surrendered to Krsna.
  
  If I have surrendered to Krsna, Krsna has taken my charge, Krsna says, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami, then why shall I bother myself? If I am thinking, 'I am suffering,' it is also Krsna's grace. We should take like that. Even in my consideration, I am in a position which is apparently suffering, we must accept as Krsna's grace: 'All right, I have surrendered to Krsna. If Krsna is giving me suffering, that's all right.' That is surrender. 'Oh, I have surrendered to Krsna, and now Krsna is giving me suffering? Oh, leave Krsna consciousness.' That is not surrender."
  Prabhupada S.B. lecture, 30/5/72

But how to reconcile this clear instruction with the grave dilemma of our times? What is that dilemma? That the vehicle created by Srila Prabhupada to provide association has become so mixed with personal ambition, separate interest and institutional self-indulgence that Srila Prabhupada himself would not recognize it as his own, despite the fact that he sits on his vyasasan and is worshipped daily in "his" temples.

 

I'm not saying that the devotees in these temples are not devotees. Even the leaders who are in most cases misusing resources are devotees. But the mood in these temples has become so mixed with self-promotion and institutional malaise that it is no longer a sanga for 99% of Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples. There is no room for them to feel welcome or inspired. And Iskcon as an institution, still run by disciples of Srila Prabhupada, does not consider this a problem. The issue is never addressed except in the most superficial and condescending ways, such as providing 3 nights of free accommodation and prasadam to Prabhupada disciples at the annual Mayapur festival.

 

So sadhu sanga is not, according to Iskcon, their problem. It is our problem, the disciples of Prabhupada and of any other Vaisnava guru who feel that the institution of their guru has abandoned them. Whatever the reality is, the need for association remains. Individually we need to pray to the Lord to guide us and give us direction. Either we become friends with a godbrother who has started his own mission and join him, or cooperate with another godbrother to try to start our own mission, or if we think we have sufficient strength, to open our own 'preaching center' or online mission and invite people to hear us or join us. Somehow or other, we cannot abandon this central principle of sadhu sanga. We must either get it or give it.

 

How we get or give sadhu sanga depends solely on our own nature and our capacity. It is very individual. If we need the physical company of devotees (and practically all of us do) then we must search out some devotees or community where we feel welcome. Or start our own sanga and become the leader. But we must commit to sadhu sanga, for the purpose of trying to please Srila Prabhupada.

We must be ready to make another sacrifice just as we did in our youth. This time our eyes are open wider from many painful experiences. When we see devotees or institutions that, in our opinion, are not pleasing to Prabhupada or encouraging to us, we should keep them at a distance. That does not give us the right to renounce sadhu sanga. What we need to renounce are things like complacency, the luxury of being overly critical without making our own contribution, and our bad habits. But sadhu sanga is our birthright, given to us by our spiritual father. We must embrace it in the same spirit of selfless love as he gave it to us.

[Devarsirat]

Okay nice, but this does not mean Iskcon is the only devotee society in the world.

 

Srila Prabhupada:...

 

"There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid." (Nectar of Devotion, Ch. 19)

 

For example Srila Prabhupada is one of the co founders of the Gaudya Vedanta Samiti of which Srila Narayana maharaja is the Acarya at present...

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote to Trivikram Maharaja, a disciple of Kesava Maharaja on 22/10/1968:

 

"I have a very close connection with Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. . . . I am one of the three persons who founded Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. . . even before Srila [Kesava] Maharaja accepted sannyasa. Respecting the order of [Kesava] Maharaja, I started writing articles for the

Gaudiya Patrika

regularly. Srila [Kesava] Maharaja greatly appreciated whatever I wrote . . . and many of my articles were published."

 

 

So Srila Prabhupadas inner feeling and intend is clear for Him Iskcon is "the International Society Of Krishna Consciousness" far extending beyond the walls of the institution.

 

 

His consciousness is certainly never confined to His own institution, but includes all all other vaisnava societies and that is the real society for Krishna Consciousness

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote to Trivikram Maharaja, a disciple of Kesava Maharaja on 22/10/1968:

 

"I have a very close connection with Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. . . . I am one of the three persons who founded Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. . . even before Srila [Kesava] Maharaja accepted sannyasa. Respecting the order of [Kesava] Maharaja, I started writing articles for the

Gaudiya Patrika

regularly. Srila [Kesava] Maharaja greatly appreciated whatever I wrote . . . and many of my articles were published."

 

 

 

 

Why didn't you post the whole letter?

Why just a snippet that serves your purposes?

 

We also know though that during the time of Srila Prabhupada he never sent any disciples to GVS for association.

 

During the time of Srila Prabhupada none of the ISKCON devotees were encouraged to associate with Narayana Maharaja?

Why not?

 

Srila Prabhupada had years to have said something about the value of his disciples associating with Narayana Maharaja but he never did.

 

Why is it that Srila Prabhupada never encouraged his devotees in India to get to GVS for "sadhu sanga" or "siksha guru"?

 

I have never seen any evidence that Srila Prabhupada ever approved of Narayana Maharaja as being siksha-guru for his disciples.

 

Why is it that in over 10 years Srila Prabhupada never once encouraged his devotees to hear from Narayana Maharaja?

 

there were devotees in India for years, but Srila Prabhupada never instructed any of them to go see Narayana Maharaja for any instruction.

 

so, then why after the passing of Srila Prabhupada was that supposed to automatically change?

 

Srila Prabhupada had years and years to say something about taking siksha from Narayana Maharaja but he never breathed a word about it.

 

duh!!!!!!

 

I wonder why?

[Guest guest]

Great post Devarsirat prabhu. Couldn't agree more.

 

 

Total nonsense to think that only Srila Prabhupada can be a genuine spiritual master. Sure enough between all other spiritual masters Srila Prabhupada takes a unique position which is very high in terms of bringing Krishna Consciousness to the west and helping countless souls to become devotees, but He is not the one and only genuine spiritual master.

 

He is my spiritual master, because I have been initiated by Him and He was physically there to accept me for initiation, chastise me, order me to do things, via His ritvik reps at the time.

 

They got their personal instructions directly from Srila Prabhupada to tell me what to do. That was then, but now this is not happening in the ritvik camp.

 

I do not believe for one minute that what a ritvik guru says to a new "initiate"

comes directly from Srila Prabhupada if its anything other then from His books.

 

Book knowledge yes, but other things I doubt come directly from Srila Prabhupada, for the same reason as it is it is stated, that we can not hear or see the supersoul.

 

They can not hear the supersoul but they can hear Prabhupada?

I dont think so, and if they say "we never said we can hear Srila Prabhupada" then what good is your guidance? Because that is the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada used when He was physically present here.

 

The ritvik system at the time was directed by Srila Prabhupada, He gave instructions to the ritviks which acted on His behalf.

 

Even His direct servants and others close to Him at the time where not able to forsee what Srila Prabhupada wanted in particular situations and had to ask Him for directions and that was when He was physically present, they did not dare to take matters into their own hands.

 

But as a ritvik today, you have to do that, take matters into your own hands, by imagining that that is what Srila Prabhupada wants at the time.

 

Srila Prabhupada is not physically present now, so why do the ritviks pretent that they know at any moment what Srila Prabhupada wants?

 

I would have thought that because we can not see The Supersoul to take direct instructions, we also can not see Srila Prabhupada and hear Him giving direct instructions.

 

Will the one who can please step forward....

[Guest guest]

Originally Posted by Guest devarsirat:

"Book knowledge yes, but other things I doubt come directly from Srila Prabhupada, for the same reason as it is it is stated, that we can not hear or see the supersoul.

 

They can not hear the supersoul but they can hear Prabhupada?

I dont think so, and if they say "we never said we can hear Srila Prabhupada" then what good is your guidance? Because that is the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada used when He was physically present here."

 

What a pile of unmitigated nonsense, which is hardly surprising when you defy Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

Narayana: So those disciples who don't have the opportunity to see you or speak with you...

 

Srila Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his words, vani.

 

Narayana: But how do they know that they're pleasing you?

 

Srila Prabhupada: If you actually follow the words of Guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how can he be pleased?

Sudama: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Jayadvaita: And if we have faith in what the Guru says, then automatically we'll do that.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja passed away in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, 30 years after. Then? I am getting mercy of Guru. This is vani. Even if Guru is not physically present, if you follow the vani, then you are getting help.

Sudama: So there is no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instructions of Guru.

Srila Prabhupada: No. Cakhu-dano-dilo-jei. What is the next one?

 

Sudama: Cakhu-dano-dilo-jei, janme janme prabhu sei.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.

(Room conversation, 21/7/75)

 

 

“These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he is hearing.”

(Letter to Rupanuga Das, 19/10/74)

 

Indian Lady: ... is that spiritual master still guiding after death?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Krsna is guiding us, similarly spiritual master will guide us.

(General lectures, 69/09/23)

[Guest guest]

What Devarsirat and Bhakta Tom are both wrote are simultaneously one and differently true. Both aspects are true. Only one purely aspiring to become a pure devotee or a pure devotee will be able to harmonize this in their heart of hearts. Therefore the argumentative part of this discussion and all these discussions are moot because only the spiritual master or one in that position has the right to chastise.

[Devarsirat]

Anyway, I was making the point that Srila Prabhupadas consciousness was never defined to Iskcons borders, thats all.

 

Srila Prabhupada did ask Srila Narayana maharaja to come and preach side by side with Him, that is a fact and true.

 

At the time Srila Narayana maharaja was busily engaged in Srila Kesava Maharajas service and could not go, anyway from many letters Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana maharaja exchanged it becomes very clear that they both had an devotionally intimate and very friendly relationship.

 

Srila Prabhupada in a letter To Srila Narayana maharaja

 

"Our relationship is certainly based on spontanious love. That is why there is no chance of us forgetting one another.....From the first time i saw you, i have been your constant wellwisher. At his first sight of me Srila Prabhupada also saw me with such love.....

 

Srila Prabhupada also writes in a letter dated May &th 1967

 

.....in all the Gaudya Mathas I think that you are the real Guru Sevaka, so I always correspond with you and I always give my full love and affection to you"

 

There are many more letters which prove how Srila Narayana maharaja was engaged to help with early Iskcon and they can be downloaded from www.purebhakti.com the file with those letters rescued is called "letters from america"

 

There have been up to 100 such letters, but unfortunately satsvarup said he lost them in a fire, how convenient.

 

The fact remains that whatever anyone says here we have the proof that Srila Prabhupada never ever spoke about Srila Narayana Maharaja like for example guruvani does and I propose that Guruvani is totally unqualified to say anything about their transcendental relationship what to speak about what would please Srila Prabhupada or what wouldnt in this regard.

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

It is in discussions like these that Puru Prabhus's imput is sorely missed.

[Devarsirat]

 

Originally Posted by Guest devarsirat:

"Book knowledge yes, but other things I doubt come directly from Srila Prabhupada, for the same reason as it is it is stated, that we can not hear or see the supersoul.

 

They can not hear the supersoul but they can hear Prabhupada?

I dont think so, and if they say "we never said we can hear Srila Prabhupada" then what good is your guidance? Because that is the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada used when He was physically present here."

 

What a pile of unmitigated nonsense, which is hardly surprising when you defy Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

 

get your point, still I believe, that only another very highly advanced devotee will be able to know what Srila Prabhupada would say in such and such situation, or what advice He would give in a particular circumstance.

 

Not everyone is a clearvoyant you know

 

Apart from this i feel that i am defending Srila Prabhupada rather then defying Him, I dont think Srila Prabhupadas ability to appear and let us know what He wants, is in question,

not in my mind anyway, I question our ability to conceive and understand what He would decide,choose,speak,want or not want, apart from whats written in the books.

 

To understand this a newcomer should not be educated to believe that this would be possible for him as a kanistha. I do believe however that another Uttama Adhikari like Srila Prabhupada would factually able to do so.

 

Thats why it is said that in order to understand the supersoul, the spiritual master appears in front of us and since the spiritual master is an expansion of the supersoul and Srila Prabhupada is not anymore in front of us in His physical form, we will need another Topmost spiritual master who is another genuine expansion of the supersoul to be directly in front of us....and so one and on and on and on into the far away future, since the last 5000 years

[Guruvani]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada in a letter To Srila Narayana maharaja

 

 

Letters from Srila Prabhupada to Narayana Maharaja are not the concern or business of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

They are irrelevant in establishing whether or not Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to take siksha from Narayan Maharaja.

 

There is not one letter or instruction from Srila Prabhupada that has ever recommemded his devotees to take association or instruction of Narayan Maharaja.

 

Thousands of ISKCON devotees were within a stones throw to the Matha where Narayana Maharaja stayed for years, but Srila Prabhupada never once instructed any ISKCON devotee to go see Narayana Maharaja for siksha or even to offer obeisances.

 

Such instruction from Srila Prabhupada to ISKCON devotees simply don't exist.

[theist]

 

Originally Posted by Guest devarsirat:

"Book knowledge yes, but other things I doubt come directly from Srila Prabhupada, for the same reason as it is it is stated, that we can not hear or see the supersoul."

 

Bhakta Tom: "They can not hear the supersoul but they can hear Prabhupada?

I dont think so, and if they say "we never said we can hear Srila Prabhupada" then what good is your guidance? Because that is the ritvik system Srila Prabhupada used when He was physically present here."

 

 

Again and again this point is made. If we can't hear Supersoul in the heart then we can't properly hear Supersoul in His external manifestation as Guru. We hear only shadows of Guru. His words are filtered through and distorted by our conditioned minds. We think in terms of an elderly Indian man is speaking. Srila Prabhupada (or anyone's guru) is not a physical being any more than we are.

 

Now the shadow of Supersoul speaking as external spiritual master is generally more acessable to us as Guru then the shadow cast internally so it is true guru's vani is what devotees cling to most strongly. But because it is a shadow it is still a precarious connection but it is still a connection because unlike and ordinary shadow Guru's shadow is based on real substance. In the material world shadows exist as shadows of other shadows. No substance.

 

Here is the point where Devasirat and all those that think like him continuously miss the boat. It is clinging to the VANI of the spiritual master that is the connection and not the outermost body of matter.

Devotees clinging to Prabhupada's books ARE associating with a pure devotee directly in his vani form just as they held onto his vani when he was in physical form.It is such a simple point but if history is any indication it will be missed again.

[theist]

 

Apart from this i feel that i am defending Srila Prabhupada rather then defying Him, I dont think Srila Prabhupadas ability to appear and let us know what He wants, is in question,

not in my mind anyway, I question our ability to conceive and understand what He would decide,choose,speak,want or not want, apart from whats written in the books.

Everything needed for becoming a preme bhakta is in his books. If you are thinking you have exhausted the vani of your spiritual master I can only suggest you are in deep illusion on this point.

[Guruvani]

Factually, the example Srila Prabhupada showed ISKCON devotees for over a decade in regards to Gaudiya Vedanta Samhiti was AVOID and IGNORE.

 

This was how Srila Prabhupada taught ISKCON devotees in regards to Narayan Maharaja, despite some personal letters from Srila Prabhupada that are really none of the business of anyone except Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja.

 

Srila Prabhupada never approved of these private letters to Narayan Maharaja ever getting circulated around ISKCON and there is no evidence that he ever would approve of his personal letters being used in that way.

[Devarsirat]

Your missing the point Guruvani Prabhu

 

The point I am making is that they both had a good relationship to each other and that it is clear that Srila Prabhupada thought highly of Srila Narayana maharaja.

 

Its not important at all for Srila Narayana Maharaja to have the authorisation to preach or do anything for that matter. He has His own math and He is obviously empowered to preach, then who gives the empowerment? It is Krishna Himself who empowers us to preach.

 

Someone who is not empowered can not preach, he can not even make one devotee, but Narayana maharaja has tens of thousands of "none x iskcon" disciples, all following proper siddhanta and the same philosophy you belive in, so there should be no quarrel.

 

He does occassionally pick up again and again devotees from Iskcon, so what? Considering that Iskcon has failed to keep them enthusiastic and they felt that they have no proper guidance there, is it not the vaisnavas mercy to help them?

 

He certainly does not canvas for them, He has His own math which is huge, He has no need for Iskcon or anyone from Iskcon, in fact He stated this more then ones.

 

Srila Prabhupada : "Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views." Brahma-samhita 5.37 purport (p.72, BBT edition)

 

 

 

 

 

Letters from Srila Prabhupada to Narayana Maharaja are not the concern or business of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

They are irrelevant in establishing whether or not Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to take siksha from Narayan Maharaja.

 

There is not one letter or instruction from Srila Prabhupada that has ever recommemded his devotees to take association or instruction of Narayan Maharaja.

 

Thousands of ISKCON devotees were within a stones throw to the Matha where Narayana Maharaja stayed for years, but Srila Prabhupada never once instructed any ISKCON devotee to go see Narayana Maharaja for siksha or even to offer obeisances.

 

Such instruction from Srila Prabhupada to ISKCON devotees simply don't exist.

[Vedesu]

 

Further, it is the injunction of the Bhakti-sandarbha of Sri Jiva Goswami that only one on the transcendental platform can associate with a non-manifest personality. Srila Prabhupada is always with the sincere disciple in the form of his instructions, but the degree to which we are able to associate with him is limited by our degree of realization. For example, Krishna's pastimes are eternally going on in Vrindavan, but now they are unmanifest. Only one with the vision described by Narottama das Thakur in Prarthana will see the land made of cintamani, the kalpa-vriksa trees, and Krishna performing His pastimes with His associates. In the same manner, Srila Prabhupada is here with us, but our ability to associate with him is limited by our degree of faith and realization.---Swami B.B. Vishnu

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees.---Adi-lila 2.117 purport

[Devarsirat]

 

Everything needed for becoming a preme bhakta is in his books. If you are thinking you have exhausted the vani of your spiritual master I can only suggest you are in deep illusion on this point.

 

No I dont think i have exhausted the vani of Srila Prabhupada, what kind of term is that anyway? I am questioning the ability of a neophite devotee to conceive of HDG vani in such a way, as to understand what Srila Prabhupada would want in particular situations.

 

Like ritvik for example they think they understand Srila Prabhupada and according to my understanding they got it completely wrong, we both according to each other, follow exactly what we think Srila Prabhupada wanted and that we are guided by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Now we are arguing about it, but if Srila Prabhupada would be physically present to put this right, He would do so and we would all understand.

 

So there

[Devarsirat]

Thank You

 

Posted by Vedesu

 

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Further, it is the injunction of the Bhakti-sandarbha of Sri Jiva Goswami that only one on the transcendental platform can associate with a non-manifest personality. Srila Prabhupada is always with the sincere disciple in the form of his instructions, but the degree to which we are able to associate with him is limited by our degree of realization. For example, Krishna's pastimes are eternally going on in Vrindavan, but now they are unmanifest. Only one with the vision described by Narottama das Thakur in Prarthana will see the land made of cintamani, the kalpa-vriksa trees, and Krishna performing His pastimes with His associates. In the same manner, Srila Prabhupada is here with us, but our ability to associate with him is limited by our degree of faith and realization.---Swami B.B. Vishnu </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees.---Adi-lila 2.117 purport </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Guruvani]

 

Your missing the point Guruvani Prabhu

 

The point I am making is that they both had a good relationship to each other and that it is clear that Srila Prabhupada thought highly of Srila Narayana maharaja.

I know about the letters. I have known about the letters for years, probably before you knew about the letters.

 

My point is that if Srila Prabhupada really felt so highly about Narayana Maharaja then why don't we have even ONE letter that would read something like:

 

"Dear Soandso das,

If you are in Navadvip then don't neglect to stop in Gaudiya Vedanta Samhiti and offer you respects to a very advanced devotee there Narayana Maharaja.

I think he is very advanced and I think my disciples and ISKCON devotess would benefit by his association.

 

Your Ever wel-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami"

 

It would have been so easy for Srila Prabhupada to have given some instruction in that way.

He never did.

Basically, he always advised his disciples to avoid the Guadiya Matha and it's spawn.

 

Srila Prabhupada had years and years to say something positive to his disciples about Narayana Maharaja and he never did till the end when he advised the ISKCON leadership to consult Narayana Maharaja on how to perform the funeral ceremony.

 

In all the years of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada never once advised any disciple or ISKCON devotee to take association and guidance from Narayana Maharaja.

 

NEVER........ nothing................zip.............nada..........

 

It would been easy enough to do if Srila Prabhupada felt that way, then he surely would have said something about it.

 

AVOID and IGNORE.......

That was the standard during the time of Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

This was how Srila Prabhupada taught ISKCON devotees in regards to Narayan Maharaja, despite some personal letters from Srila Prabhupada that are really none of the business of anyone except Srila Prabhupada and Narayana Maharaja.

 

Srila Prabhupada never approved of these private letters to Narayan Maharaja ever getting circulated around ISKCON and there is no evidence that he ever would approve of his personal letters being used in that way.

 

Just like there is no evidence he would approve using his personal letters and private instructions for blasting and defaming his Godbrothers by a bunch of overzealous neophyte disciples.

[suchandra]

 

Just like there is no evidence he would approve using his personal letters and private instructions for blasting and defaming his Godbrothers by a bunch of overzealous neophyte disciples.

 

Well spoken, overzealous neophyte disciples who would even do this for "hobby and fun - without getting paid for it".

[theist]

 

Now we are arguing about it, but if Srila Prabhupada would be physically present to put this right, He would do so and we would all understand.

 

So there

 

 

Everything needed as to how the parampara continues on is there in his books. Are you saying that you need to hear him speak the words to understand but if he writes the same words on paper you cannot understand?

 

What sense does that make?

[Guruvani]

 

Just like there is no evidence he would approve using his personal letters and private instructions for blasting and defaming his Godbrothers by a bunch of overzealous neophyte disciples.

That's a bogus argument.

Letters to disciples are different.

 

In the letter to Rupanuga Srila Prabhupada wrote "my instruction to you all is to avoid my Godbrothers".

 

So, that was not a single instruction to a single disciple as Srila Prabhupada said "my instruction to you ALL".

 

It is offensive and abusive for those personal letters to Narayana Maharaja to be pasted-up publicly all over the world.

 

Besides that, we really don't know the inner motives of why Srila Prabhupada invited Narayan Maharaja to join him in preaching in the USA.

 

Prabhupada invited Narayana Maharaja to join him in the west because he wanted to train Narayana Maharaja up in how ISKCON functioned and how it worked so as to try and prevent the kind of misunderstandings and interference that Narayana Maharaja has created for ISKCON because he refused repeated requests from Srila Prabhupada to come to the west and get trained-up in how the movement in west was being conducted.

 

Narayana Maharaja refused repeated requests from Srila Prabhupada to come to the west and see how ISKCON was being conducted, but Narayan Maharaja refused the training and the offer, so when Srila Prabhupada passed away Narayana Maharaja didn't have the experience or training to get involved in ISKCON activities or with ISKCON devotees.

 

He refused the training and therefore was unfit to get involved.

 

He refused to get involved in the way Srila Prabhupada wanted, but he was willing to get involved only after Srila Prabhupada was not around anymore to prevent any trouble.

 

that sort of involvement will never be acceptable by many devotees of ISKCON.