Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Guruvani]

Even in 1958, before Srila Prabhupada even started ISKCON he was criticising his Godbrothers in the Gaudiya Math:

 

 

4) The lion's food has been stolen away

by the deceptive tricks of the jackal

Now caught in Maya's mighty clutches

everyone is reduced to wailing and weeping.

What was "the Lion's food" that was being taken away by "the Jackal".

 

 

 

2) Your so-called disciple, the jackal named Ananta Vasudeva,

disobeyed your final instructions to keep the mission united,

and thereby created a scandalous fiasco.

The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day

as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your

temples.

Why was Srila Prabhupada referring to the successor gurus of the Gaudiya Matha as "imitative sahajiyas"?

 

He mentioned in plural that there were "imitative sahajiyas" who had taken away "the Lion's food".

 

It appears that Srila Prabhupada did not recognize these "successor gurus" of the Gaudiya Matha and characterized them as "imitative sahajiyas" who were taking away the Lion's food.

 

What then are the little devotees of ISKCON compared to the high class devotees of the Gaudiya Matha who were a lot higher born than the mlecchas that became successor gurus in ISKCON?

 

If the leading disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur were "imitative sahajiyas," in the eyes of Srila Prabhupada, for assuming successor guru status in the Gaudiya Math, then what would be the new bhaktas of ISKCON that had been devotees for about 10 years before Srila Prabhupada passed away?

 

Srila Prabhupada's idea of the central position of the acharya goes back long before he even started ISKCON, to at least 1958.

 

Why should the successor gurus of the Gaudiya Matha be "imitative sahajiyas" and the successor gurus of ISKCON be Maha_Bhagavats?

 

I think we can take a lesson from the way Srila Prabhupada judged the successors of the Gaudiya Matha and get an idea of what he wanted for ISKCON.

[theist]

Guruvani.

 

You advocate the ritvik position wherein a representative of Srila Prabhupada ok's an aspirant to become Srila Prabhupada's disciple and performs an initiation rite for that aspirant on Srila Prabhupada's behalf. Yet just two days ago you started a thread offering harinama initiation for anyone just by listening to Srila Prabhupada's instructions on chanting Hare Krsna.

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/443588-get-harinama-intiation-srila-prabhupada-here.html

 

I happen to agree with the point of that thread that anyone can listen to Srila Prabhupada (or another of Krsna's transcendental devotees) chanting Hare Krsna and receive Krsna nama from that experience.

 

So my question to you is. Who then needs a ritvik priest to receive Harinama initiation?

 

Promoting both ideas simultaneously does not appear to be consistent.

[Guest guest]

The insistance on formal diksa dismisses any bhakta who has been maintaining a strict sadhana for years from the possibility of significant spiritual advancement. This simply for want of an appropriate guru and a formal ritual. This is spirituality? This is transcendental?

If it is, then I would advise everybody who is maintaing such sadhana-bhakti without formal initiation to stop wasting their time, go to an ISKCON temple, or Narayana Maharaj, get processed, jump through the correct hoops and get that spiritual name.

I suspect a large enough sum of money might go a long way to bypassing many of the requirements.

Unfortunately I don't have the stomach for such rank boot-licking.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani.

 

You advocate the ritvik position wherein a representative of Srila Prabhupada ok's an aspirant to become Srila Prabhupada's disciple and performs an initiation rite for that aspirant on Srila Prabhupada's behalf. Yet just two days ago you started a thread offering harinama initiation for anyone just by listening to Srila Prabhupada's instructions on chanting Hare Krsna.

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/443588-get-harinama-intiation-srila-prabhupada-here.html

 

I happen to agree with the point of that thread that anyone can listen to Srila Prabhupada (or another of Krsna's transcendental devotees) chanting Hare Krsna and receive Krsna nama from that experience.

 

So my question to you is. Who then needs a ritvik priest to receive Harinama initiation?

 

Promoting both ideas simultaneously does not appear to be consistent.

 

Sure.

First thing is that when we say diksha we are not referring to Harinama but to the Upanayana Samskara - the sacred thread ceremony.

 

As far as the Maha-mantra goes, I don't see that any formal initiation was ever required aside from hearing the Maha-mantra from a Vaishnava.

 

As best I can recall I have been promoting ritvik for the purpose of Brahmnical initiation or what is called Upanayana Samskara.

 

But, in ISKCON there was a formal initiation for Harinama Maha-mantra and the receiving of the Vaishnava name as dasa.

I don't think the formality is essential in anyone having the right to chant the name and get the benefit.

 

Still, in ISKCON there were formal initiations for both Harinama and Upanayana Samskara.

As long as ISKCON continues that traditon then I think that both formal ceremonies should be conducted on behalf of Srila Prabhupada as ritvik.

 

But, outside the formal structure I think there is plenty of evidence that anyone can chant the Holy Name following the regulative principles and get the benefit.

 

Personally, I think that real initiation is the process of being indoctrinated into the science of Krishna consciousness which includes primarily the chanting of the Holy Name and the learning of the scriptures and understanding the basic concepts of Krishna conciousness.

I don't think any formal ceremony is required for that.

 

Still, we have to think about how ISKCON can go on in the fashion that Srila Prabhupada wanted.

Outside of preserving the mission of Srila Prabhupada there is plenty of scope for becoming Krishna conscious.

 

But, preserving the mission of Srila Prabhupada, ISKCON, is an issue unto itself which brings up the subject of ritvik.

 

For those sannyasis who have left ISKCON, then they can either be ritvik or not, depending on what their own conscience dictates to them to do.

 

Otherwise, aside from all the formalities, it has been said the a person who is Krishna conscious is already beyond sabda-brahma and all Vedic rituals.

 

A person who is Krishna conscious is already beyond the level of Brahman.

 

The initiation of Brahmans in the KC movement has always just been a way of demonstrating that a Krishna conscious person is already more than a brahmana.

 

The diksha in the KC movement isn't so much the making of a Brahmana as it is the giving formal recognition that this person is already a Brahmana.

 

I think that has been made quite clear in the writing of the acharyas.

 

A Krishna conscious person is already beyond Brahmana - way beyond.

[theist]

If by diksa you are meaning braminical initiation which is important for temple Deity worship then I still don't see a need for an offical ritvik. That could be handled by the current leading priests at that temple and that devotee with the brahmins temperment could be braminically trained to perform temple functions. Not all vaisnavas will have this temperment and so not that many should be initiated as brahmins in the first place.

 

What I object to concerning ritviks is the idea that I need now their approval before I can receive a connection with Srila Prabhupada. Who appointed them anyway? The connection is established by hearing the name from Srila Prabhupada. The ritvik does not make that connection, so who needs them?

 

This is why I consider the ritviks a disturbance as well as the ecclesiatical gurus.

 

The name is sufficant. And I am speaking of the pure name whitch comes from the pure devotee along with the vaisnava siddhanta. All this pomp and ceremony has caused much more trouble than it's worth IMO.

[Guruvani]

 

If by diksa you are meaning braminical initiation which is important for temple Deity worship then I still don't see a need for an offical ritvik. That could be handled by the current leading priests at that temple

 

In Vaishnavism one doesn't take initiation from "priests" but from someone that you accept as your spiritual master.

 

the Gaudiya culture has never been about priests, but about spiritual masters.

 

You take diksha from someone you accept as worshipable as God.

 

Because in Vaishnavism it is about the touchstone of the pure devotee transforming you into a Brahmana, not about taking diksha from a "priest".

 

It has never been like that in Gaudiya culture.

 

It has always been about taking diksha from self-realized masters - not from priests.

[theist]

 

In Vaishnavism one doesn't take initiation from "priests" but from someone that you accept as your spiritual master.

 

the Gaudiya culture has never been about priests, but about spiritual masters.

 

You take diksha from someone you accept as worshipable as God.

 

Because in Vaishnavism it is about the touchstone of the pure devotee transforming you into a Brahmana, not about taking diksha from a "priest".

 

It has never been like that in Gaudiya culture.

 

It has always been about taking diksha from self-realized masters - not from priests.

 

I can understand Vaisnavism is not about priests but rather the transcendental touch. I was responding to this statement in your post however.

 

 

As best I can recall I have been promoting ritvik for the purpose of Brahmnical initiation or what is called Upanayana Samskara.

 

 

 

Still, in ISKCON there were formal initiations for both Harinama and Upanayana Samskara.

As long as ISKCON continues that traditon then I think that both formal ceremonies should be conducted on behalf of Srila Prabhupada as ritvik.

 

I am not so concerned with Iskcon as you are. I do think they would be much better off dropping the formal Harinama initiation by various ecclesiatical gurus and let it be understood that new members are receiving the Hare Krsna mantra from Srila Prabhupada by hearing and according to the siddhanta that he laid out. No formalities needed.

 

Through his teachings he would also be the siksa guru for Iskcon along with his more advanced disciples. That would occur naturally.

 

As for brahminical initiation it is not needed for developing love for Krsna but is prescribed for the pujari's. What need is there for Srila Prabhupada to preside over every Upanayana Samskara ceremony?

[Guest guest]

Doing away with ritual initiation drives out religiosity. The rites of inclusion and exclusion are dear to the religionist and therefore to ISKCON which over time has transformed (or should I say degenerated) into the Hindu Catholic Church. It very much needs the officialese and formalities to establish its exclusive and absolute power to confer God's mercy. It will never do away with them since that would contradict its very reason for being - exercising control.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

OMG!!!!11!! Ponies!!11! XOXOXO!!1! I heart ponies!!

 

Sorry. What were we talking about again?

 

 

Doing away with ritual initiation drives out religiosity. The rites of inclusion and exclusion are dear to the religionist and therefore to ISKCON which over time has transformed (or should I say degenerated) into the Hindu Catholic Church. It very much needs the officialese and formalities to establish its exclusive and absolute power to confer God's mercy. It will never do away with them since that would contradict its very reason for being - exercising control.

[theist]

 

Doing away with ritual initiation drives out religiosity. The rites of inclusion and exclusion are dear to the religionist and therefore to ISKCON which over time has transformed (or should I say degenerated) into the Hindu Catholic Church. It very much needs the officialese and formalities to establish its exclusive and absolute power to confer God's mercy. It will never do away with them since that would contradict its very reason for being - exercising control.

 

I am afraid I must agree with you guest. Let's just keep our eyes open for the occasional St. Francis which Krsna will most certainly send.

[Guruvani]

 

Doing away with ritual initiation drives out religiosity. The rites of inclusion and exclusion are dear to the religionist and therefore to ISKCON which over time has transformed (or should I say degenerated) into the Hindu Catholic Church. It very much needs the officialese and formalities to establish its exclusive and absolute power to confer God's mercy. It will never do away with them since that would contradict its very reason for being - exercising control.

 

I have never heard of any rites of exclusion in the Gaudiya culture.

I don't know where you got that idea, but your tone smacks of an academic orientation and therefore puts you at a serious disadvantage in grasping the spiritual essence of the Gaudiya culture.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Yeah. What he said.

 

The funny thing is: guest is anthropomorphizing ISKCON--attributing "needs" to it and such.

 

This kind of talk has me envisioning ISKCON as Godzilla eating Tokyo.

 

"Academic" is a generous description of this thinking. I'd use the term "mentally-fixated". These words don't come from the heart do they?

 

Speaking of hearts, I just heart ponies. Don't you?

 

 

I have never heard of any rites of exclusion in the Gaudiya culture.

I don't know where you got that idea, but your tone smacks of an academic orientation and therefore puts you at a serious disadvantage in grasping the spiritual essence of the Gaudiya culture.

[Guruvani]

 

Doing away with ritual initiation drives out religiosity. The rites of inclusion and exclusion are dear to the religionist and therefore to ISKCON which over time has transformed (or should I say degenerated) into the Hindu Catholic Church. It very much needs the officialese and formalities to establish its exclusive and absolute power to confer God's mercy. It will never do away with them since that would contradict its very reason for being - exercising control.

 

ISKCON has transformed into something, but I am not so sure you can even remotely compare it to the Catholic church.

 

Where is the ISKCON Pope?

 

ISKCON has a hundred gurus.

How does that compare with the Catholic church having one Pope that speaks for God.

 

ISKCON has become a bogged-down bureaucracy and the comparison with the Catholic church might have a nifty ring to it, but practically speaking ISKCON has almost nothing in common with the Catholic church other than a growing ecclesiastical doctrine.

 

If it does, then please show how instead of making broad sweeping comparisons without any comparitive analysis.

 

It is easy to make a charge.

It is not so easy to demonstrate your theory.

[Guest guest]

 

ISKCON has transformed into something, but I am not so sure you can even remotely compare it to the Catholic church.

 

Where is the ISKCON Pope?

 

ISKCON has a hundred gurus.

How does that compare with the Catholic church having one Pope that speaks for God.

 

ISKCON has become a bogged-down bureaucracy and the comparison with the Catholic church might have a nifty ring to it, but practically speaking ISKCON has almost nothing in common with the Catholic church other than a growing ecclesiastical doctrine.

 

If it does, then please show how instead of making broad sweeping comparisons without any comparitive analysis.

 

It is easy to make a charge.

It is not so easy to demonstrate your theory.

 

<i>

GBC Resolution

 

309. Definition of Clergy

[Action Order]

 

RESOLVED:

 

That the following Definition of Clergy is accepted for all ISKCON entities in North America:

 

The individual must maintain fidelity to the teachings given by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON and be „ordained, commissioned, or licensed“ as per the procedures established for North America by the ISKCON Governing Body Commission Society, West Bengal, India.

 

And the individual must fulfill at least one of the following requirements:

 

The individual administers sacraments; or

The individual conducts worship services; or

The individual performs services in the „control, conduct, or maintenance of a religious organization“ under the authority of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON); or

The individual is considered to be a spiritual leader by virtue of his or her affiliation with ISKCON.

NOTE: Initiation is necessary but not sufficient to qualify one to be considered as clergy by ISKCON entities in North America </i>

 

Also I have it on report that the Los Angeles Temple president told my friend that ISKCON is to be run like the Catholic Church, so I didn't pull that out of any orifice.

[Guest guest]

Vaikunthanatha(ACBSP): In 1972, when Srila Prabhupada gave a series of lectures on The Nectar of Devotion for one month in Vrindavana, a thought was plaguing me. When I first joined, I'd been taught that the parampara system is like a chain, and if you're not initiated, if you're not initiated, if you're not linked up to this chain, then you can't go back to Godhead. I thought, "We're distributing so many books, but if the people who read them are not initiated, then they can't go back to Godhead". So one day I followed Srila Prabhupada from Rupa Goswami's samadhi, where he lectured, and just before Srila Prabhupada stepped onto his courtyard, I said, "Srila Prabhupada, we're distributing so many books but if people aren't initiated, then they can't go back to Godhead". Srila Prabhupada turned, looked me right in the eyes and said, "Just by reading my books they are initiated". I thought, "That is an incredible example of compassion".

[Guruvani]

 

Vaikunthanatha(ACBSP): In 1972, when Srila Prabhupada gave a series of lectures on The Nectar of Devotion for one month in Vrindavana, a thought was plaguing me. When I first joined, I'd been taught that the parampara system is like a chain, and if you're not initiated, if you're not initiated, if you're not linked up to this chain, then you can't go back to Godhead. I thought, "We're distributing so many books, but if the people who read them are not initiated, then they can't go back to Godhead". So one day I followed Srila Prabhupada from Rupa Goswami's samadhi, where he lectured, and just before Srila Prabhupada stepped onto his courtyard, I said, "Srila Prabhupada, we're distributing so many books but if people aren't initiated, then they can't go back to Godhead". Srila Prabhupada turned, looked me right in the eyes and said, "Just by reading my books they are initiated". I thought, "That is an incredible example of compassion".

 

that is a nice quote, but it is undocumented (on tape) and unfortunately cannot be used as evidence.

 

I don't doubt that Srila Prabhupada could have said that, but we cannot use hearsay as authoritative when debating opposing arguments.

 

We need to use standard shastric and other such verifiable references in establishing conclusions.

 

If Srila Prabhupada actually felt that way, then we can surely find some support for that somewhere in a documented source.

[Guruvani]

68/12/16 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.46-62

 

 

Prabhupada: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when He started this movement, He preached that simply by chanting you'll get all perfection, and the brahmanas of Navadvipa, they rebelled against Him, that "This boy..." He was boy of twenty years or less than that. This boy is preaching something against the Vedic religious system. So in other words, they were afraid of their priestly profession. Because if everyone takes to simply chanting Hare Krsna and forgets all ritualistic activities, then how they will live? They were priestly class, they were getting some money by their followers. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu had no such desire. He simplified the whole thing. Harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Simply chant Hare Krsna and you become elevated to the highest platform. Actually it is so. You can see from the behavior of our students. They simply took this chanting, now see their behavior, see their character. It will automatically. That is the result. Iha haite sarva-siddhi haibe tomara. Lord Caitanya said, every kind of, all kinds of perfection will follow. Simply you begin chanting Hare Krsna sincerely. Yes. Go on.

 

listen

 

 

 

[krsna]

 

68/12/16 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.46-62

 

 

 

listen

 

 

 

 

 

 

<CENTER>From Srila Sridhara's Maharaja's </CENTER><CENTER></CENTER><CENTER>Sri Guru and His Grace:</CENTER><CENTER></CENTER><CENTER></CENTER><CENTER>Chapter One </CENTER>

 

 

 

<CENTER><TT>Surrender

to

Sri Guru</TT> </CENTER>

 

Qualifications of a Disciple

 

Here, Krsna has given us the standard by which we can understand what is what, from a bona fide source. The standard to measure truth or untruth must come not from a vitiated, vulnerable plane, but from a real plane. And to realize that, we must have these three qualifications: pranipat, pariprasna, and seva. Pranipat means we must surrender to this knowledge, for it is not an ordinary class of knowledge, which as a subject we can make our object; it is supersubjective. We may be the subjects in this mundane world, but we will have to become objects to be handled by the superknowledge of that plane.

 

Pranipat means that one approaches a spiritual master, saying, "I am finished with the experience of this external world; I have no charrn for anything in this plane, where I have already traveled. Now I am offering myself exclusively at your altar. I want to have your grace." In this mood we should approach that higher knowledge.

 

Pariprasna means honest, sincere inquiry. We must inquire not with the tendency of discussion or in the mood of argument, but all our efforts should be concentrated in a positive line to understand the truth, without the spirit of doubt and suspicion. With full attention we should try to understand that truth, because it is coming from a higher plane of reality that we have never known.

 

Finally, there is sevaya, or service. This is the most important thing. We are trying to gain this knowledge not so we can get the help of that plane, not so we can utilize that experience for living here; rather we must give our pledge to serve that plane. Only with this attitude may we approach that plane of knowledge. We shall serve that higher knowledge; we won't try to make it serve us. Otherwise, we won't be allowed to enter into that domain.

 

Absolute knowledge won't come to serve this lower plane. We must offer ourselves to be used by Him, not that we shall try to use Him in our own selfish way, to satisfy our lower purpose.

With the mood of service we shall dedicate ourselves to Him; not that He will dedicate Himself to satisfy our lower animal purpose. So, with this attitude we shall seek the plane of real knowledge and receive the standard understanding. And then we can know what is what, and have a proper estimation of our environment.

 

This is Vedic culture. Absolute knowledge has always been imparted by this process alone, and never by the intellectual approach. Srlla Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta used to give the analogy of the bee: honey is in a bottle, the cork is in place, and the bee has taken his seat on the glass. He tries to taste the honey by licking the bottle. But, just as the bee cannot taste the honey by licking the outside of the glass bottle, the intellect cannot approach the world of spirit. We may think that we have attained it, but that is not possible: a barrier is there, like the glass. Intellectual achievement is not real achievement of higher knowledge. Only through faith, sincerity, and dedication can we approach that higher realm, and become a member. We can enter that higher plane only if they grant us a visa and admit us. Then we can enter that land of divine living.

 

So, a candidate must have these three qualifications before he can approach the truth which is on the higher plane of Absolute Reality. He can approach the Absolute Truth only with an attitude of humility, sincerity, and dedication. There are similar statements in the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Vedas. In the Upanisads it is said,

 

tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit panih srotriyam brahma nistham:

 

"Approach a spiritual master. Do not go to him hesitatingly or haphazardly, but with a clear and earnest heart.":pray:

[Guest guest]

 

I have never heard of any rites of exclusion in the Gaudiya culture.

I don't know where you got that idea, but your tone smacks of an academic orientation and therefore puts you at a serious disadvantage in grasping the spiritual essence of the Gaudiya culture.

 

Your style is equally erudite. What has that got to do with substance? That is (academically) 'ad hominem' and irrelevant.

I have spent a significant amount of time in both institutions Catholic and ISKCON. Anybody with a functioning brain who pays attention will understand the ISKCON culture the same way. So many bhaktas have left for similar reasons. I chant sixteen rounds , follow the regulative principles and attend mangala arotka every morning.

Your were saying about spiritual understanding?

[Guest guest]

 

Yeah. What he said.

 

The funny thing is: guest is anthropomorphizing ISKCON--attributing "needs" to it and such.

 

This kind of talk has me envisioning ISKCON as Godzilla eating Tokyo.

 

"Academic" is a generous description of this thinking. I'd use the term "mentally-fixated". These words don't come from the heart do they?

 

Speaking of hearts, I just heart ponies. Don't you?

 

ISKCON is a society of persons governed by persons. It has a culture and needs like any other society. That's basic anthropology, sociology.

You want to talk about mental. Read the GBC resolutions.

Listen to an typical ISKCON lecture.

[passionate-freak]

Yeah sure,

 

There's huge difference between physically present and the one back to the originality.

 

The one not present is used for worshiping like Krishna, Rama, and others... ... ... ...like swami Narayana ( he is the famous one here on discussion).

 

But the living Guru BURNS us, gives death to almost anything into us and brings a newer person into us.

 

But, ours is the corpse worshiper kinda society.

 

regards

[Guruvani]

 

ISKCON is a society of persons governed by persons. It has a culture and needs like any other society. That's basic anthropology, sociology.

You want to talk about mental. Read the GBC resolutions.

Listen to an typical ISKCON lecture.

I guess it depends what ISKCON temple you are around.

The New Raman Reti Temple in Alachua Florida is the largest settlement of devotees in the western hemisphere but is set up in a way that the GBC can't dictate around here. The devotees in the community here call the shots and manage this temple the way they like. Most ISKCON gurus wont come near the place. But, occasionally one of them pops in for a torture test.

 

The mood around New Raman Reti is a lot different than the rest of the ISKCON temples. It's really about Srila Prabhupada at New Raman Reti, but there are assorted devotees of all types around.

 

Most of ISKCON is a political mess, but anybody can show up at New Raman Reti and attend the program without getting harrassed by some temple goon.

 

All the ISKCON ecclesiastical bureaucracy has virtually no influence at New Raman Reti.

Unfortunately, the ISKCON bureaucrats meddle too much in most of the ISKCON temples around the world, but in Alachua Florida them goons have been put in check at the largest settlement of devotees in the USA.

[krsna]

 

I guess it depends what ISKCON temple you are around.

The New Raman Reti Temple in Alachua Florida is the largest settlment of devotees in the western hemisphere but is set up in a way that the GBC can't dictate around here. The devotees in the community here call the shots and mangage this temple they way they like. Most ISKCON gurus wont come near the place. But, occasionally one of them pops in for a torture test.

 

The mood around New Raman Reti is a lot different than the rest of the ISKCON temples. It's really about Srila Prabhupada at New Raman Reti, but there are assorted devotees of all types around.

 

Most of ISKCON is a political mess, but anybody can show up at New Raman Reti and attend the program without getting harrassed by some temple goon.

 

All the ISKCON ecclesiastical bureaucracy has virtually no influence at New Raman Reti.

Unfortunately, the ISKCON bureaucrats meddle too much in most of the ISKCON temples around the world, but in Alachua Florida them goons have been put in check at the largest settlement of devotees in the USA.

 

Here KB, forget them goons. Can you throw some tanscendental light here by answering the following:

 

Mucos gracis senor

 

HOW CAN A NEOPHYTE DETERMINE WHO IS FIT TO BE HIS GURU?

How can a neophyte, who is by definition not spiritually advanced, have any hope of selecting a qualified spiritual guide by his own inexpert judgement?

[Guruvani]

 

Here KB, forget them goons. Can you throw some tanscendental light here by answering the following:

 

Mucos gracis senor

 

HOW CAN A NEOPHYTE DETERMINE WHO IS FIT TO BE HIS GURU?

How can a neophyte, who is by definition not spiritually advanced, have any hope of selecting a qualified spiritual guide by his own inexpert judgement?

there are guidelines given in shastra on identifying the proper spiritual master.

 

neophytes who don't know these shastric directions should not be taking diksha just because it is fashionable around the Hare Krishna temples.

 

so, neophytes should first learn from authoritative shastra how to identify a spiritual master.

 

there is no need to be hasty about accepting a spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada took initiation 11 years after he accepted Srila Saraswati Thakur as his spiritual master.

 

so, what is they hurry?

 

maybe that is a problem nowadays that too many neophytes are taking initiation without even knowing the shastric guidelines for accepting a spiritual master?

 

for me, there was never any question.

I knew Srila Prabhupada was my spiritual master and I didn't have to go through any shopping around for a guru phase.

 

It should be that easy for devotees coming to the movement even today, but unfortunately the ISKCON GBC has adopted a policy that makes choosing a guru something like playing a game of dice.

 

Spiritually, the diksha guru is the one who creates faith in Krishna in your heart.

Formal gurus based on other considerations is a bad formula and will dog the Krishna consciousness movement like bad case of staph infection as long as this system is being promoted in ISKCON.

[Laulyam]

<CENTER>TEXT 97

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

surya candra bahirera tamah se vinase

bahir-vastu ghata-pata-adi se prakase

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>surya--the sun; candra--the moon; bahirera--of the external world; tamah--darkness; se--they; vinase--destroy; bahih-vastu--external things; ghata--waterpots; pata-adi--plates, etc.; se--they; prakase--reveal.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>The sun and moon dissipate the darkness of the external world and thus reveal external material objects like pots and plates.

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 98

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

dui bhai hrdayera ksali' andhakara

dui bhagavata-sange karana saksatkara

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>dui--two; bhai--brothers; hrdayera--of the heart; ksali'--purifying; andhakara--darkness; dui bhagavata--of the two bhagavatas; sange--by the association; karana--cause; saksat-kara--a meeting.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>But these two brothers [Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda] dissipate the darkness of the inner core of the heart, and thus They help one meet the two kinds of bhagavatas [persons or things in relationship with the Personality of Godhead].

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 99

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

eka bhagavata bada----bhagavata-sastra

ara bhagavata----bhakta bhakti-rasa-patra

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>eka--one; bhagavata--in relation to the Supreme Lord; bada--great; bhagavata-sastra--Srimad-Bhagavatam; ara--the other; bhagavata--in relation to the Supreme Lord; bhakta--pure devotee; bhakti-rasa--of the mellow of devotion; patra--the recipient.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>One of the bhagavatas is the great scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the other is the pure devotee absorbed in the mellows of loving devotion.

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 100

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

dui bhagavata dvara diya bhakti-rasa

tanhara hrdaye tanra preme haya vasa

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>dui--two; bhagavata--the bhagavatas; dvara--by; diya--giving; bhakti-rasa--devotional inspiration; tanhara--of His devotee; hrdaye--in the heart; tanra--his; preme--by the love; haya--becomes; vasa--under control.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>Through the actions of these two bhagavatas the Lord instills the mellows of transcendental loving service into the heart of a living being, and thus the Lord, in the heart of His devotee, comes under the control of the devotee's love.

 

 

<HR>

 

<CENTER>TEXT 101

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

eka adbhuta----sama-kale donhara prakasa

ara adbhuta----citta-guhara tamah kare nasa

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>eka--one; adbhuta--wonderful thing; sama-kale--at the same time; donhara--of both; prakasa--the manifestation; ara--the other; adbhuta--wonderful thing; citta-guhara--of the core of the heart; tamah--darkness; kare--do; nasa--destruction.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>The first wonder is that both brothers appear simultaneously, and the other is that They illuminate the innermost depths of the heart.