Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna]

Sri Guru-vandana

The Worship of Sri Guru

 

(from Prema-bhakti-candrika)

 

 

sri-guru-carana-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma,

bando mui savadhana mate

jahara prasade bhai, e bhava toriya jai,

krsna-prapti hoy jaha hoy 'te

2

guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete koriya aikya,

ar na koriho mane asa

sri-guru-carane rati, ei se uttama-gati,

je prasade pure sarv asa

3

cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei,

divya-jnan hrde prokasito

prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,

vede gay jahara carito

4

sri-guru karuna-sindhu, adhama janara bandhu,

lokanath lokera jivana

ha ha prabhu koro doya, deho more pada-chaya,

ebe jasa ghusuk tribhuvana

 

 

1) The lotus feet of our spiritual master are the only way by which we can attain pure devotional service. I bow to his lotus feet with great awe and reverence. By his grace one can cross the ocean of material suffering and obtain the mercy of Krsna.

 

2) My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet is the perfection that fulfills all desires.

 

3) He opens my darkened eyes and fills my heart with transcendental knowledge. He is my Lord birth after birth. From him ecstatic prema emanates; by him ignorance is destroyed. The Vedic scriptures sing of his character.

 

4) Our spiritual master is the ocean of mercy, the friend of the poor, and the lord and master of the devotees. O master! Be merciful unto me. Give me the shade of your lotus feet. Your fame is spread all over the three worlds!

[cbrahma]

No authoritative proof that

no genuine spiritual master = no sincerity.

[Pretender]

Yet for my own sake I must consider that my own circumstances are no one's fault but my own due to my own misdoing, with no blame to the environment or anyone else.

[Beggar]

 

No authoritative proof that

no genuine spiritual master = no sincerity.

 

Perhaps sincerity should be defined. Srila Sridhar Maharaj gave this definition,

"sincerity means appreciation for the truth." In the modern exploitative conception of the West everyone is looking forward to a better life of enjoyment whereas in reality we are all deeply in debt. Devarsi-bhutapta-nrnam pitrnam. The real debt is to the demigods like the sun and the moon, the forefathers, our parents for giving us this body and even the Vedic rsis for giving us so much knowledge of the Absolute. But actually only Krsna can reveal Himself, so the rsis or devotees like Narada and Vyasa are being used as instruments of the Lord for this purpose. Just like Krsna is being hidden by His external potency, He can be revealed by His sweet will through His internal potency. The fully self-realized devotees are considered manifestations of His internal potency for since they are absorbed in divine love one can get immense benefit through their association and this is the absolute principle of Sri Guru. Then there is the relative application of this principle in real life which is where you seem to be having doubts. Personally if I was in your shoes and only had exposure to the current guru system and situation in ISKCON, then I would have big doubts also.

[cbrahma]

No authoritative proof that

no genuine spiritual master = no sincerity.

[Beggar]

 

No authoritative proof that

no genuine spiritual master = no sincerity.

 

I'm not sure if you are honestly giving your position. Sometimes it seems that you are wondering if we can have Krsna without guru? Other times it seems that you don't really believe in Krsna. If the second option is true then that is the reason that we are going around in circles, because you really are not looking for an answer and that is what I suspected before. Other times it seems that your position on all this is not really fixed that you are kind of floating and that you are having an overall crisis of faith? It's almost like you are throwing a tantrum.

[Beggar]

Jaiva Dharma

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Chapt. Four,

Babaji: When you abandon all material doubts and mundane logic, and constantly apply yourself to sri-nama, spiritual realization will quickly arise within you of its own accord. The more you resort to mundane logic, the more you will subjugate your mind to material bondage. The more you strive to initiate the flow of nama-rasa, the more your material shackles will become loosened. The spiritual dimension will then manifest in your heart.

Lahiri: Please be merciful and explain what that spiritual experience is.

Babaji: The mind is brought to a standstill when it tries to understand that truth through words. The truth can be realized only through culture of spiritual bliss (cid-ananda). Give up all argumentation and simply chant sri-nama for several days. Then the power of nama will automatically dispel all of your doubts and you will not have to inquire further from anyone in this regard.

[krsna]

Jaiva Dharma

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Chapt. Four,

 

Babaji: When you abandon all material doubts and mundane logic, and constantly apply yourself to sri-nama, spiritual realization will quickly arise within you of its own accord. The more you resort to mundane logic, the more you will subjugate your mind to material bondage. The more you strive to initiate the flow of nama-rasa, the more your material shackles will become loosened. The spiritual dimension will then manifest in your heart.

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Lahiri: Please be merciful and explain what that spiritual experience is.

<O:P></O:P>

Babaji: The mind is brought to a standstill when it tries to understand that truth through words. The truth can be realized only through culture of spiritual bliss (cid-ananda). Give up all argumentation and simply chant sri-nama for several days. Then the power of nama will automatically dispel all of your doubts and you will not have to inquire further from anyone in this regard. :pray: :pray:

[bija]

Give up all argumentation and simply chant sri-nama for several days.

Doubts are like demons, which is not a nice state of mind....but when we come back to good sense we begin chanting the Holy Name again, and things become clear almost instantly.

 

Faith crisis's come, and they can potentially deepen our relationship with God and understandings....diving back into Naam has always been the way for me, and bought back that peace of mind.

 

I wonder sometimes why we dont pick up the bead bag when in such a state, the moment we begin to doubt. But as soon as we pick up the tulsi again....home!

[suchandra]

 

I'm not sure if you are honestly giving your position. Sometimes it seems that you are wondering if we can have Krsna without guru? Other times it seems that you don't really believe in Krsna. If the second option is true then that is the reason that we are going around in circles, because you really are not looking for an answer and that is what I suspected before. Other times it seems that your position on all this is not really fixed that you are kind of floating and that you are having an overall crisis of faith? It's almost like you are throwing a tantrum.

 

I find your posts very confusing and not helpful.

[Beggar]

 

I find your posts very confusing and not helpful.

My post was both a statement and a fair question for cbrahma? That the question will probably not be answered should speak for itself if one is thinking clearly.

[krsna]

 

In an airplane he was reading his Bhagavad-gita As It Is and he turned to Pradyumna and I and said, ‘Who reads their own books? Who do you know who reads their own books? No-one reads their own books. When an author makes a book he puts it down. He reads other people’s books. He doesn’t read his own book once its finished. But here I am reading this Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Why?’

He was on the airplane going to the next temple, and we looked…he said, ‘Because these are not my words. They’re Krsna’s words.’ So this is Srila Prabhupada. Everything he gave us is just coming from Krsna, directly in his books....

 

Sruta-kirti Prabhu

[atbas]

I have just come upon the following article and I think that every sincere reader will have all his doubts on this topic cleared by reading this article of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati.

 

 

Eulogy of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase... The mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves... Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the powers of the pure devotee of Godhead.

His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought, the works of Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krishna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krishna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the transcendental sound appearing on his lips. Before we open any of the books penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude which serves as the indispensable prerequisite to approach its study. It is by neglecting to remember this fundamental principle that the empiric pedants find themselves so hopelessly puzzled in their vain endeavor to reconcile the statements of the different texts of the scriptures. The same difficulty is already in process of overtaking many of the so-called followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and for the same reason...

Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piecemeal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self- deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.

In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakura Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by the deceptive by- path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.

Source: The Harmonist, Dec. 1931, vol. XXIX No. 6

[krsna]

Eulogy of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase...

 

The mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves...

 

Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the powers of the pure devotee of Godhead.

 

His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers.

 

His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought, the works of Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

 

The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krishna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krishna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the transcendental sound appearing on his lips.

 

Before we open any of the books penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude which serves as the indispensable prerequisite to approach its study. It is by neglecting to remember this fundamental principle that the empiric pedants find themselves so hopelessly puzzled in their vain endeavor to reconcile the statements of the different texts of the scriptures. The same difficulty is already in process of overtaking many of the so-called followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and for the same reason...

 

Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piecemeal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self- deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.

 

In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position.

 

The words of Thakura Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute.

 

If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by the deceptive by-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures.

 

The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute. :pray: :pray:

Source: The Harmonist, Dec. 1931, vol. XXIX No. 6

[krsna]

KRSNA gives you Guru, who then gives you love of KRSNA:)

[cbrahma]

 

KRSNA gives you Guru, who then gives you love of KRSNA:)

Says who?

[Beggar]

<table><tbody><tr><td>Madhya-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 19: Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu

Instructs Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī </td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.151

 

brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

 

SYNONYMS

brahmāṇḍa bhramite — wandering in this universe; kona — some; bhāgyavān — most fortunate; jīva — living being; guru — of the spiritual master; kṛṣṇa — of Kṛṣṇa; prasāde — by the mercy; pāya — gets; bhakti-latā — of the creeper of devotional service; bīja — the seed.

 

TRANSLATION

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.

 

PURPORT

When we speak of brahmāṇḍa, we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all the universes there are innumerable planets, and there are innumerable living entities upon those planets — in the air, on land and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity, life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, one who is actually fortunate (bhāgyavān) comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a fortunate person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from material bondage.

How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Śrīla Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the Cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving these Vaiṣṇavas and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of their sympathy, and by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas.

Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa-bhakti — love for Kṛṣṇa — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.107):

nitya-siddha-kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja.

<

[krsna]

one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. :pray: :pray:

 

 

 

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Madhya-līlā</TD><TD class=m>Chapter 19: Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu

Instructs Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.151

 

brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva

guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja

 

SYNONYMS

brahmāṇḍa bhramite — wandering in this universe; kona — some; bhāgyavān — most fortunate; jīva — living being; guru — of the spiritual master; kṛṣṇa — of Kṛṣṇa; prasāde — by the mercy; pāya — gets; bhakti-latā — of the creeper of devotional service; bīja — the seed.

 

TRANSLATION

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.

 

PURPORT

When we speak of brahmāṇḍa, we refer to the whole universe, or to the cluster of many millions of universes. In all the universes there are innumerable planets, and there are innumerable living entities upon those planets — in the air, on land and in the water. There are millions and trillions of living entities everywhere, and they are engaged by māyā in suffering and enjoying the results of their fruitive activity, life after life. This is the position of the materially conditioned living entities. Out of many of these living entities, one who is actually fortunate (bhāgyavān) comes in contact with a bona fide spiritual master by Kṛṣṇa's mercy.

Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and if one desires something, Kṛṣṇa fulfills one's desire. If the living entity by chance or fortune comes in contact with the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement and wishes to associate with that movement, Kṛṣṇa, who is situated in everyone's heart, gives him the chance to meet a bona fide spiritual master. This is called guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāda. Kṛṣṇa is prepared to bestow His mercy upon all living entities, and as soon as a living entity desires the Lord's mercy, the Lord immediately gives him an opportunity to meet a bona fide spiritual master. Such a fortunate person is fortified by both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master. He is helped from within by Kṛṣṇa and from without by the spiritual master. Both are prepared to help the sincere living being become free from material bondage.

How one can become this fortunate can be seen in the life of Śrīla Nārada Muni. In his previous life he was born of a maidservant. Although he was not born into a prestigious position, his mother was fortunately engaged in rendering service to some Vaiṣṇavas. When these Vaiṣṇavas were resting during the Cāturmāsya period, the boy Nārada took the opportunity to engage in their service. Taking compassion upon the boy, the Vaiṣṇavas offered him the remnants of their food. By serving these Vaiṣṇavas and obeying their orders, the boy became the object of their sympathy, and by the Vaiṣṇavas' unknown mercy, he gradually became a pure devotee. In the next life he was Nārada Muni, the most exalted of Vaiṣṇavas and the most important guru and ācārya of Vaiṣṇavas.

Following in the footsteps of Nārada Muni, this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is rendering service to humanity by giving everyone a chance to come in contact with Kṛṣṇa. If one is fortunate, he becomes intimately related with this movement. Then, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, one's life becomes successful. Everyone has dormant kṛṣṇa-bhakti — love for Kṛṣṇa — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.107):

nitya-siddha-kṛṣṇa-prema 'sādhya' kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

Dormant devotional service to Kṛṣṇa is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja.

<

[krsna]

Let Guru Find You

By Acting and Praying

in Such a Way

as to Bring Krsna

to Send Guru to You.

[cbrahma]

 

Let Guru Find You

By Acting and Praying

in Such a Way

as to Bring Krsna

to Send Guru to You.

It's not like there is an abundance of bona fide gurus floating around ready to drop in on me as soon as I reach that critical mass of 'acting and praying in such a way'.

We see here again the reversal of result and process.

Until you fulfill condition 'x' you will not get condition 'y'.

But condition 'x' is just as advanced as condition 'y' so how is 'y' a condition.

The same applies to the preconditions for chanting and all the extraordinary requirements for doing so.

[xexon]

There is a certain hierarchy.

 

You are free to explore the spiritual realm on your own, but the trip there and back is more rapid with one who knows the way.

 

False gurus have only read the travel brochure.

 

 

x

[cbrahma]

 

There is a certain hierarchy.

 

You are free to explore the spiritual realm on your own, but the trip there and back is more rapid with one who knows the way.

 

False gurus have only read the travel brochure.

 

 

x

Do you have a guru? In the Indian system your guru is literally your master. It is a master/servant relationship. The guru can tell you to jump in the lake and you have to do it. Do you have that kind of guru? You better be sure he is completely self-realized. I haven't met anybody like that so far.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Do you have a guru? In the Indian system your guru is literally your master. It is a master/servant relationship. The guru can tell you to jump in the lake and you have to do it. Do you have that kind of guru? You better be sure he is completely self-realized. I haven't met anybody like that so far.

 

 

An Indian system? I have never heard of such a system Kimosabe!

 

 

[xexon]

The only guru I've ever had any contact with is the late Charan Singh of Radhasoami, Beas.

 

He gave me a few basic instructions in a letter and I took them to heart. I've never had any association with other Radhasoami devotees or the organization itself. I have been alone in my spiritual pursuits since the beginning.

 

I have no interest in anything other than the most simple of spiritual truths.

 

The ones that all religions are built upon.

 

The ones that children understand.

 

 

 

x

[cbrahma]

 

 

 

An Indian system? I have never heard of such a system Kimosabe!

 

 

Gosh could I have meant East Indian , like from India? could be:rolleyes: