Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[theist]

 

Amazing.

 

In the inner city I saw a shop called "sex-o-rama".

 

The people there are probably saying the name of the Lord constantly.

 

They may pick up the phone and say "this is Sex-o-Rama"

 

No need for a Guru, they have God's association directly in the form of His Divine Name.

 

Referrence Hari Nama Cintanami.

 

 

 

 

I have Bhaktirasamrtasindhu open on the desk in front of me, opened at the page where it discusses diksa.

 

Should I spend time typing what is written there?

 

No need I have a copy. BTW is this the same one you said had mistakes in it on another thread?

 

And again you won't address my quotes from CC but now want to inject some other work.

 

I also want to ask you why you are offering to quote some book on transcendental knowledge at the same time you are saying transcendental knowledge can't be had by reading books. Are you presently looking into the face of Rupa Gosvami or something?

 

 

 

 

Who cares about what Srila Rupa Goswami says?

Are you suggesting he is saying something contrary to what Lord Caitanya says in the quotes above from CC...you know the ones you are fearful of addressing.

 

According to Sri Rupa, the type of bhakti known as "vaidhi-bhakti" is bhakti that is based upon the statements of the scriptures. Vaidhi Bhakti, properly performed, can take you to Vaikuntha or Dvaraka Leela of Krishna, but only raganuga bhakti can take you to the Vraja Leela.

 

Where do you get this Raganuga Bhakti? Can you get it from reading books. Hmmm... the books say you cannot get it from books!

[Guruvani]

 

Amazing.

 

In the inner city I saw a shop called "sex-o-rama".

 

The people there are probably saying the name of the Lord constantly.

 

They may pick up the phone and say "this is Sex-o-Rama"

 

No need for a Guru, they have God's association directly in the form of His Divine Name.

 

 

 

I have Bhaktirasamrtasindhu open on the desk in front of me, opened at the page where it discusses diksa.

 

Should I spend time typing what is written there?

 

Who cares about what Srila Rupa Goswami says?

 

According to Sri Rupa, the type of bhakti known as "vaidhi-bhakti" is bhakti that is based upon the statements of the scriptures. Vaidhi Bhakti, properly performed, can take you to Vaikuntha or Dvaraka Leela of Krishna, but only raganuga bhakti can take you to the Vraja Leela.

 

Where do you get this Raganuga Bhakti? Can you get it from reading books. Hmmm... the books say you cannot get it from books!

Thats one of them trick questions.

 

You can't get anything from a book, but you can get everything by following the instructions of the Mahajanas that are contained in books.

 

It's not books that do the magic, it's following the Mahajanas whose example is perfect that is the secret.

 

Where do we get the best insight into the lives of the Mahajanas?

 

Duh...... from the books.

 

What do the books say about the books?

 

 

TRANSLATION

Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṇa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.

 

 

This book is sufficient for God realization.

So says the book.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Where do you get this Raganuga Bhakti? Can you get it from reading books. Hmmm... the books say you cannot get it from books!

I don't think the books say that.

Here is what Srila Prabhupada says about getting love of Krishna from a book.

It's in the preface to KRISHNA BOOK....

 

 

It is said in the Bhagavad-gita that even a little effort expended on the path of Krsna consciousness can save one from the greatest danger. Hundreds of thousands of examples can be cited of people who have escaped the greatest dangers of life due to a slight advancement in Krsna consciousness. We therefore request everyone to take advantage of this great transcendental literature. One will find that by reading one page after another, an immense treasure of knowledge in art, science, literature, philosophy and religion will be revealed, and ultimately, by reading this one book, Krsna, love of Godhead will fructify.

Srila Prabhupada wrote in his book that by reading even just this one book that LOVE OF GODHEAD will fructify.

 

So, I beg to differ with your conclusion even though I know it's a popular view with the vapu promoters around the movement.

[gHari]

I hated seeing that drivel about Srila Prabhupada on our forum. Any idiot with a website gets play time --- not in my world.

[Guest guest]

If we are on the platform of realising we are not our bodies, then we can see Lord Krishna in His Diety form and talk with him. We can see the spiritual master at every moment. But for myself, I am not on this platform. Therefore I need the association of a personal guru who is physically present. Someone I can go to to ask questions of.

Srila Prabhupada had many disciples and told his disciples to read his books. How else could he have taught thousands of disciples all the time? He had his lectures taped for his disciples to listen to. But does that mean his disciples didn't need inititation from him? Toward the end he set up a temporary ritvik system to help the initiations go on. But does that mean he had no say in the matter? That whoever his regional secretaries recommended he HAD to accept? No.

The spiritual master's body is never considered to be material because it is used in Krishna's service 100%. So long as the guru is following his guru, chanting hare krishna, following the four reg.s, etc, he is qualified to bring his disciples back to Godhead, because that is all Prabhupada asked for his disciples, therefore that is all they need to do in order to become guru. Prabhupada said you become spiritual master by following your spiritual master.

Books and tapes are not enough. Initiation is necessary. And since time immemorial GURUS are necessary, living, present, spiritual masters. We can't just choose our guru from the past. The only exception Prabhupada mentioned was the disciples of Lord Jesus who didn't have a disciplic succession, who followed Jesus Christ by reading the Bible, but that is the exception and not the rule.

[muralidhar_das]

 

I am sick and tired of this subject. Why don't you who think everyone needs see your guru's face just leave those of us who choose to focus on Srila Prabhupada's books alone. It's our business in our lives. You don't hear me telling you to reject hearing from your guru and only read Prabhupada's books do you? How about showing me and those with similar views the same courtesy by reigning in your fanaticism?

 

Fine theist, forget it.

[Guest guest]

 

I am sick and tired of this subject. Why don't you who think everyone needs see your guru's face just leave those of us who choose to focus on Srila Prabhupada's books alone. It's our business in our lives. You don't hear me telling you to reject hearing from your guru and only read Prabhupada's books do you? How about showing me and those with similar views the same courtesy by reigning in your fanaticism?

 

Because 75% of the devotees in Narayana M.'s, Govinda M.'s, Bhakti Ballabha T. M.'s, both Puri M.s, Tripurari M.s, Narasimha M.'s, Paramadvaiti M.s and others groups were also "just focusing on Srila Prabhupada's books alone" a few short years ago. Where do you think the market is? Also the Rtviks have recruited many followers from former disciples of ISKCON gurus. Sounds like a war for the hearts and minds! If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen!

[krsna]

The rule is you ABSOLUTELY need a living guru, i.e., a guru that you live for, by and with.

 

The exception is a guru that is dead or in a can/box that you relegate at the back of your mind, so to speak and thus make him up as you go along fooling yourself and others that he is'living' whilst you spiritual life is a dead end...

[theist]

 

Regarding your question about the disciplic succession coming down from Arjuna, it is just like I have got my disciples, so in the future these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession. So in one line of disciples we may not see another name coming from a different line. But this does not mean that person whose name does not appear was not in the disciplic succession. Narada was the Spiritual Master of Vyasadeva, and Arjuna was Vyasadeva's disciple, not as initiated disciple but there was some blood relation between them. So there is connection in this way, and it is not possible to list all such relationships in the short description given in Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth. So there is no difference of opinion of understanding Krishna between ourselves and Arjuna. Another example is that a tree has many branches, and you will find one leaf here and another leaf there. But if you take this leaf and the other leaf and you press them both, you will see that the taste is the same. The taste is the conclusion, and from the taste you can understand that both leaves are from the same tree.

 

"Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person."

For someone who accepts what Srila Prabhupada has to say in the above the matter is clear and fixed.

 

The disciplic succession that I am interested in is the one composed of Krsna conscious souls and their transcendental sound in the form of the disciplic conclusion and Holy Name.

 

I choose to accept the real thing or nothing at all. I don't want to play Vaisnava. Presently I am a demon still so let me face that fact head on instead of playing disciple of some guru's vapuh.

 

I see no value in accepting someone's physical body as my guru.

[theist]

 

Fine theist, forget it.

 

Please don't take personally. It is not just you it is nor even really the subject. It is the fact that we are simply trying to dominate others using this "debate" as a means to that end. I reject I didn't see this sooner but my desire to dominate others blinded me to the reality of what is going on.

 

A discussion is one thing but in a discussion between two people or a group like here is that the participants are willing to take the time to consider each other points even if they end up disagreeing with the conclusion.

 

I have asked several times for your critigue of my posts 221 & 222. I would love to continue with you and others but if what I say is just ignored then what is the point.

[Guruvani]

You know, I have set at the feet of Srila Prabhupada and heard his lectures, heard his kirtan and recieved prasadam from his hand to mine.

It was great, it was wonderful and it was inspiring.

 

But, for me anyway, I always feel the most intimate connection with Srila Prabhupada in his vani and his books.

 

I don't buy into the vapu magic that some devotees seem to be all excited about.

I have seen senior sannyasis nodding out during lectures and I know that the propaganda that there is some electrical charge of prema that comes from the physical proximity of the acharya or guru is a myth.

 

Physical darshan of the pure devotee is wonderful, that is true.

 

But, I think that this idea that there is some special magic in physical proximity is a myth.

 

The magic is in serving the spiritual master, not in looking at him.

 

When Vyasadeva wrote down the Vedas and the other Vedic literatures he opened a new era when the ancient oral tradition had been rendered into script allowing the Vedic knowledge to be transmitted through another process other than aural reception.

Even then, there were few copies of the Vedic scriptures available to the masses and hearing from the mouth of the sages, gurus and acharyas was the only way to get spiritual knowledge.

 

Anyway, the invention of the modern printing presses and now the internet has made all this storehouse of knowledge available to the masses very profusely.

 

That is why we need the guidance of modern acharyas who have adjusted the situation for modern times and have left us their instructions on how to adapt these ancient Vedic teachings to the modern world.

 

We don't have to be in physical proximity of modern acharyas to learn from them. We can read their books and listen to their recorded messages and it is all the same.

The vapu aspect is external.

We need to get in touch with the internal workings of the acharyas and the best way to do that is to hear their instructions either from their mouths or from their books.

The message is the substance.

How you get the message doesn't matter.

 

I prefer the written word as it allows us to go over the teachings again and again and again or simply stay on one verse till we can get some insight as to what the teaching is trying to convey.

 

I don't think that anything compares to the written word.

Anyone that doesn't get moved and stirred by reading the words of the great devotees is not going to feel any magic looking at the face of a pure devotee.

 

Since the dawn of language mankind has been transmitting knowledge, getting inspiration and touching the hearts of others with the written word.

 

Reading the words of others has many times moved people to tears, started revolutions and completely changed the lives of thousands and millions of people.

 

To say you cannot get prema from a book is in fact a deception, because the book is a direct link to the hearts and minds of many of the greatest sages, devotees and saints in the history of the universe.

 

The face-to-face process has never been and never will be as powerful and effective as the heart-to-heart process of studying the lives and teachings of the Mahajanas, the pure devotees and the acharyas.

 

anyway, that is my humble opinion.

[Guest guest]

If books alone were enough Prabhupada would have just sent a few cases of his Bhagavatams to America instead of risking his life and health by personally coming to America

[Guruvani]

 

If books alone were enough Prabhupada would have just sent a few cases of his Bhagavatams to America instead of risking his life and health by personally coming to America

 

Srila Prabhupada always emphasized "joining the Krishna consciousness movement".

If you bothered to read his books you could see that for yourself.

 

So, books are obviously not enough for everybody at all times and all places.

Association with devotees has an important part in the cultivation of Krishna consciousness.

 

Yet, we have plenty of proof in the examples of the followers of the "living guru" that they haven't manifested any sattvic bhavas from all the their staring at the whiskered face of the "living guru".

 

So, they have proved to the world that vapu sanga doesn't perform any magic or miracles. You have to follow the process of chanting, dancing, hearing Bhagavatam etc. etc.

 

The vapu fanatics are all the time saying that you can't get prema from a book, but they are all living examples that you can't get prema from hanging around the body of the guru asking silly questions.

 

The vapu fanatics don't show any superior symptoms to the vani bhaktas.

They haven't proved that you can get prema by loitering around the physical body of the "living guru".

 

It's obvious that you don't get prema from books or from physical promixity, but you get prema by extreme self-sacrifice and self-abnegation in the service of the pure devotees.

 

You can make that sacrifice after hearing from the books or you can make that sacrifice after hearing it directly from the mouth of the pure devotees.

 

Either way, you aren't going taste the nectar unless you shed the false ego and dedicate youself wholesale to the service of the spiritual master.

 

Loitering around the physical form of the guru expecting some magical, mystical electrical charge of prema is a fool's folly.

 

If you want to dance to the music you must pay the piper.

 

That means without totally sacrificing yourself in service to the spiritual master you will never get prema even if you loiter around his physical form for millions of years asking silly questions to satisfy your curiousity.

[Guest guest]

The main thing is the association. Best thing is actual hearing from vaisnavas, that works the best. In Mahaprabhus time, there was not really much in the Gaudiya Vaisnava Canon. But there were vaisnavas that heard frmo one another the Bhagavatam, Gita etc. Rarely did people read on their own I think, mainly vaisnavas heard path from senior vaisnavas and chanted nama.

 

I always like to follow the KISS principle. Keep it simple, stupid.

[Guest guest]

 

The vapu fanatics are all the time saying that you can't get prema from a book, but they are all living examples that you can't get prema from hanging around the body of the guru asking silly questions.

 

Duh, Einstein! You simply need BOTH... That is precisely what our tradition has always been saying - you need both vani and vapu.

 

Next time you read Prabhupada's books please pay attention to the overall message and dont pull one-line quotes to "prove" your point that direct association with a guru is irrelevant.

[Guruvani]

 

Duh, Einstein! You simply need BOTH... That is precisely what our tradition has always been saying - you need both vani and vapu.

 

Next time you read Prabhupada's books please pay attention to the overall message and dont pull one-line quotes to "prove" your point that direct association with a guru is irrelevant.

 

Well, not exactly like you say.

Srila Prabhupada writes this in his concluding words of CC.

 

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vāṇī, his words. There are two ways of association — by vāṇī and by vapuḥ. Vāṇī means words, and vapuḥ means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vāṇī continues to exist eternally. Therefore we must take advantage of the vāṇī, not the physical presence. The Bhagavad-gītā, for example, is the vāṇī of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Although Kṛṣṇa was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, the Bhagavad-gītā continues.

 

So, you say tradition puts a lot of emphasis on the vapu, bu really it doesn't.

Srila Prabhupada says:

 

 

Therefore we must take advantage of the vāṇī, not the physical presence.

 

So, I don't know what Narayana Maharaja says and I don't care, but Srila Prabhupada said to take advantage of the vani "not the physical presence".

 

He also says that it is "material vision" to think that the spiritual master is no longer present just because he has given up his physical body.

 

So, your material vision sees that Srila Prabhupada is gone, but my spiritual vision sees that he is still just as much alive as ever.

 

So, your vapu theory is not supported by Srila Prabhupada.

Maybe Narayana Maharaja preaches like that, but Srila Prabhupada doesn't.

[suchandra]

 

Duh, Einstein! You simply need BOTH... That is precisely what our tradition has always been saying - you need both vani and vapu.

 

Next time you read Prabhupada's books please pay attention to the overall message and dont pull one-line quotes to "prove" your point that direct association with a guru is irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adi 7.115

In this connection the Padma Purana states, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih: "One who considers the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Visnu, to be stone, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TO BE AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, and a Vaisnava to belong to a particular caste or creed, is possessed of HELLISH INTELLIGENCE." One who follows such conclusions is doomed.

[Guest guest]

 

So, I don't know what Narayana Maharaja says and I don't care, but Srila Prabhupada said to take advantage of the vani "not the physical presence".

 

He also says that it is "material vision" to think that the spiritual master is no longer present just because he has given up his physical body.

 

So, your material vision sees that Srila Prabhupada is gone, but my spiritual vision sees that he is still just as much alive as ever.

 

So, your vapu theory is not supported by Srila Prabhupada.

Maybe Narayana Maharaja preaches like that, but Srila Prabhupada doesn't.

 

Prabhupada is clearly talking about a mature devotee and one who initially had both vani and vapu and now only has the vani of his guru to console him.

 

This is absolutely not the case with young devotees - they are neither mature nor did they have a chance to directly associate with their guru

 

To promote a theory that vani alone is sufficient for ALL bhaktas is most irresponsible. And to say that this quote proves it is laughable.

[Guest guest]

SB 4.28.47 P Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life

Figuratively the queen is supposed to be the disciple of the king; thus when the mortal body of the spiritual master expires, his disciples should cry exactly as the queen cries when the king leaves his body. However, the disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words). Physical presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.

-------------------

 

 

These instructions certainly do not minimize the need for vapu in the formative years of disciple's life.

[Guruvani]

 

SB 4.28.47 P Puranjana Becomes a Woman in the Next Life

Figuratively the queen is supposed to be the disciple of the king; thus when the mortal body of the spiritual master expires, his disciples should cry exactly as the queen cries when the king leaves his body. However, the disciple and spiritual master are never separated because the spiritual master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the spiritual master. This is called the association of vani (words). Physical presence is called vapuh. As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master.

-------------------

 

 

These instructions certainly do not minimize the need for vapu in the formative years of disciple's life.

Well, I just go by the example Srila Prabhupada showed when he was physically present.

He allowed a few senior disciples to perform personal service but the several thousand other disciples were just guided towards reading the books and doing their service in ISKCON.

 

If the vapu connection was so important then Srila Prabhupada would not have restricted his personal service to a few senior disciples but made it a point that every disciple had to get some vapu service.

 

Very few of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada got actual personal service to the vapu aspect.

Srila Prabhupada was big on vani.

 

A few senior men took care of the vapu service and the other several thousand disciples were just encouraged to read the books and participate in the ISKCON society as actively as they could.

 

So, vapu service is important because somebody has to be personal servant to the acharya, but once that is taken care of by a few senior disciples, then the rank and file devotees were all instructed to focus on the books - the vani and the service in ISCKON and the association of devotees.

 

That was the ISKCON system and that was how Srila Prabhupada conducted his mission.

 

If the vapu connection really flips your switch, then power to you.

 

But, Srila Prabhupada established ISKCON as primarily a vani based movement for the majority of his followers.

[Guest guest]

 

Well, I just go by the example Srila Prabhupada showed when he was physically present.

He allowed a few senior disciples to perform personal service but the several thousand other disciples were just guided towards reading the books and doing their service in ISKCON.

 

Vapu is hardly a mere service to guru's body such as cooking or massaging. It is primarily understood as a direct physical interaction and observation, including service of course. Thus it involved far more people than his personal servants.

 

And it seems like it was mostly some of his "leading" disciples limiting Prabhupada's interaction with "regular" devotees, not Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

 

Vapu is hardly a mere service to guru's body such as cooking or massaging. It is primarily understood as a direct physical interaction and observation, including service of course. Thus it involved far more people than his personal servants.

 

And it seems like it was mostly some of his "leading" disciples limiting Prabhupada's interaction with "regular" devotees, not Prabhupada.

Well, I don't think so really.

 

I know several devotees that sent letters to Srila Prabhupada asking for personal instruction and he just always told them to consult with the temple president and the senior devotees and cooperate with the authorities to do service.

 

Srila Prabhupada was very busy in so many ways and it certainly was a distraction from the greater good if he had to take too much time out to tend to so many devotees that wanted some personal interaction.

 

In the later years especially he was very strict about devotees going through the authorities and the chain of command and not demanding personal instruction.

 

I think the senior men kept the crowds away because it was the best thing for ISKCON as a whole.

 

I think they did it under the instruction and wishes of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I got a few days of association with Srila Prabhupada at lectures and programs and I was happy with that.

 

I even saw him shed a tear watching the drama actors putting on a play and I feel very fortunate for that.

 

I didn't need to linger and loiter around Srila Prabhupada.

I could understand that service in ISKCON was more pleasing to Srila Prabhupada than chasing him around from temple to temple to get the vapu experience.

[krsna]

Did you get a personal instruction??? :confused:

 

If not, why not??? :confused:

 

How can you really serve him now without a personal instruction??? :smash:

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Looks like most of the major points are being covered here. I like the bit about personal service to Gurudev. That's one thing that's not inherently present in "submissive aural [or visual] reception".

 

Another consideration that might not occur to those on this forum (since all are literate (or at least semi-literate, considering some of the spelling and grammar seen here ))--many aspiring Bhaktas have little inclination for reading.

 

Even for me, after sitting in front of a computer monitor all day, the last thing I want to do when I get home is crack open a book (but, lately, the sweet call of Prapanna Jivanamritam has overwhelmed me).

 

For those not inclined to read, there is practical seva, and of practical sevas, what could be sweeter than to directly serve Gurudev?

 

In Gurudev Srila Govinda Maharaja's sanga, there are a number of devotees who have come from the "Rainbow Family" ( http://www.welcomehome.org/ ) due to the tireless efforts of Nitya Hari Prabhu's annual Simply Wonderful kitchen at the US National Rainbow Gathering.

 

These persons are happily engaged in making garlands, preparing bhoga for offering to the deities, distributing the mercy of Gurudev, etc.

 

In repsonse to Theist's (consciously not appending anything to your handle per your request) challenge regarding the CC quotes:

 

The question is: just what is Mahaprabhu promising? Is he promising that, by chanting the names of the Lord without ever surrendering to the feet of Gurudev, we will be liberated?

 

I believe the generally accepted reading is that: one can get benefit from chanting the Holy Names regardless of the circumstances or manner of the chanting ("sex-o-rama" as a case in point). How much benefit, though?

 

The analogy of shooting blanks is often used in relation to japa. When we have not been given the holy name by Guru, we are shooting blanks. There is some effect, to be sure, but it is mostly sound and smoke. There is no projectile fired (though you wouldn't want to put a gun loaded with blanks right up to your head and pull the trigger).

 

I've said before on this forum, that my rational mind cannot accept (despite what is said in scripture) that a Guru is absolutely required to attain salvation and that, by sincerity alone, a person stranded on a desert isle could not attain the sweetest destination.

 

However, a good friend would not send one into the Sahara with a compass and a map. A good friend would recommend a qualified guide.

[krsna]

I perfectly agree with the tenor and spirit of the following:

 

 

"The analogy of shooting blanks is often used in relation to japa. When we have not been given the holy name by Guru, we are shooting blanks. There is some effect, to be sure, but it is mostly sound and smoke. There is no projectile fired (though you wouldn't want to put a gun loaded with blanks right up to your head and pull the trigger).

 

I've said before on this forum, that my rational mind cannot accept (despite what is said in scripture) that a Guru is absolutely required to attain salvation :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: and that, by sincerity alone, a person stranded on a desert isle could not attain the sweetest destination.

 

However, a good friend would not send one into the Sahara with a compass and a map. A good friend would recommend a qualified guide.":deal: