Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna]

Here is a verse and purport which leads to getting a Guru who can actually help one to get KRSNA as only KRSNA Himself can reveal Himself as Sri Guru.

 

 

CC Ch.1 Texts 58 & 35

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<center>TEXT 58

 

</center><center>

jive saksat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksa-guru haya krsna-mahanta-svarupe

</center><center>SYNONYMS

 

</center>jive--by the living entity; saksat--direct experience; nahi--there is not; tate--therefore; guru--the spiritual master; caittya-rupe--in the form of the Supersoul; siksa-guru--the spiritual master who instructs; haya--appears; krsna--Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mahanta--the topmost devotee; sva-rupe--in the form of.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center>Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.

<center>PURPORT

 

</center>It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

[Guruvani]

It doesn't say that the preceptor appears before the external senses in a body form. After all this "instructing spiritual master" is all about instructions.

 

We all don't need specific instructions from the acharya directly.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave a formula that anyone could accept and practice and get the benefit.

 

It's the same process for everyone.

We don't have to get specific directions because the Yuga Dharma is the same for everybody in this age.

 

the Yuga Dharma doesn't change from person to person.

There is ONE Yuga Dharma for everyone in this age.

 

Srila Prabhupada came and broadcast the Yuga Dharma to the western world and appeared before the external senses of people in many forms that are not limited to his physical body.

 

He has his form in his instructions also.

 

His form in his instructions is the most important and usefull form of the instructing spiritual master.

 

The body form can't do much for us really.

It's the vani of the acharya that is most important beyond his physical form.

 

the Gita, the Bhagavatam and all the relevant scriptures can educate anyone in the science of Krishna consciousness.

 

Personally proximity to the physical form of the acharya amounts to very little in comparison to understanding his teachings and instructions.

 

We have see enough of these intimate personal associates fall by the wayside while more distant devotees connected by vani have hung in there.

 

so, there is plenty of proof that there is no magic in physical proximity of the guru.

 

Huge fonts are the equivalent of yelling in the face of the other members, so I am not very fond of HUGE FONTS or having someone yelling fanatically in my face.

[Guruvani]

 

If not needed, then why, at such an advanced age and ill health, does he circle the globe 14 times in 10 years to PERSONALLY see to the SPECIFIC needs of INDIVIDUAL disciples.

 

Haribol, mahak

Thats a false picture.

Srila Prabhupada did travel around the world, but in the majority of situations the devotees in the temples were not getting personal access or personal instruction from Srila Prabhupada.

It's just plain false to say that he was traveling around to tend to the personal needs of individual disciples.

 

That was not the actual facts.

 

Once he established the GBC and temple president structure most devotees had to go through the chain of command and did not get personal access to Srila Prabhupada.

 

why he traveled?

There are a number of reasons, but giving direct access to the rank and file devotees of ISKCON was not really going on and I think you are being either ignorant or deceptive when you say he did.

[Guest guest]

 

The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

 

"As long as the spiritual master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the spiritual master, and when the spiritual master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the spiritual master."

(Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.28.47, purport)

 

"Sometimes a diksa guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa guru."

(SP Bg. Lecture, 4/7/74, Honolulu)

 

"I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

(SP Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

"I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you, still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

(SP Letter to Subala, 29/9/67)

 

"So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, that is living."

(SP Lecture, 13/1/69)

 

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

[Guest guest]

Im a nobody, no clout at all. Yet he appears before me. He personally sends emissary to see how those who have left ISKCON yet still accept him as Guru are doing. My personal experiance, as well of the experiances of those I served with, such as Babhru das and others, know that Srila Prabhupada personally related to his disciples, no matter how big or small.

 

Maybe the clamor was too great thaT THE throngs never experiaqnced his personal touch, but my experiance is that the throngs were often told to go away so he could personally deal with heartfelt personal issues of his disciples. Maybe the recipient of his mercy was awe-stricken to the point of always avoiding him, afraid of his touch. I know a rtvik of great renown, who initiated himself years after 1977, who always avoided being initiated directly, even though the opportunity and recommendations were there. This is not a fault to not take initiation, I did not accept second initiation because I was still doing a little herb at the time. But to wait until he is out of the picture, and then say he has accepted, this is ludicrous.

 

There are devotees, disciples of Srila Prabhupada, who fully present Srila Prabhupada as he is. There is only advantage in seeking out their association as guru (siksa or diksa, however they will have you). Things come up, we all need advice. If not from guru, such advice is not valuable at all.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

Im a nobody, no clout at all. Yet he appears before me. He personally sends emissary to see how those who have left ISKCON yet still accept him as Guru are doing. My personal experiance, as well of the experiances of those I served with, such as Babhru das and others, know that Srila Prabhupada personally related to his disciples, no matter how big or small.

false.

Babhru was not the only devotee in ISKCON to testify to how Srila Prabhupada related with the rank and file devotees of ISKCON.

 

Maybe my experience is different because I joined in Los Angeles which was the world headquarters for ISKCON at that time.

There were hundreds and hundreds of disciples at the Los Angeles temple back then.

 

So, my experience is the experience of Srila Prabhupada and how he related with a big, big international movement of disciples.

 

That was how I saw it and that is how I report it.

 

If Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to expand more and more, then he surely could not have expected to give personal attention to every devotee who joined the society.

 

I saw Srila Prabhupada in Los Angeles, San Francisco and San Diego and he was very much aloof from the rank and file devotees and he had his senior men training up new devotees.

That was how he wanted it and that is how it was since ISKCON started booming into an international movement.

 

Srila Prabhupada had many well-trained disciples that could train up the newcomers. It was a system that worked well when it was applied properly.

 

Danavir Maharaja started the "bhakta program" with the approval of Srila Prabhupada and I was the first new bhakta to enter that program.

 

I never felt any lacking because I had great senior Godbrothers that were more advanced than me and could help me in the same way Srila Prabhupada could or even better because they gave me more personal attention than Srila Prabhupada gave most of his direct disciples.

 

I know that there is one "living guru" that initiates disciples with no system in place for training them up and these are the people always whining about how important it is to get personal attention from the guru.

 

Well, they aren't getting it and they aren't getting proper help from other senior men either and they are always whining about personal association with the guru because they have never been trained properly and don't have sadhana worth a donkey squirt.

[stonehearted]

I'm not sure I understand what you say in false in mahak's post. I'm certainly not the only person who was not an ISKCON celebrity to "testify" to how Srila Prabhupada related with most of us. I think that most devotees who joined after 1972, or maybe even '71, have experience more like yours KB. I was lucky, and my circumstances somewhat extraordinary, I suppose. But, as I've mentioned before, in December of '73, Srila Prabhupada cleared his calendar for the morning to meet privately (no servants, no GBC guys, no sannyasis, doors closed) with my wife, my Godbrother and friend Tarun Kanti, and me. His first concern was for our happiness and the strength of our faith. Earlier that year, he wrote me to express his confidence in me as fit to take Krishna consciousness to Peru. He told me he considered South America "our last unconquered continent" and that he was "very much encouraged to know that it will now be developed under qualified disciples as yourself."

 

But I can't say whether I would ever have gotten such association if things in Hawaii hadn't shut down so completely while I was preparing to go to South America. I would probably have gotten even more association a couple of years later if ISKCON politics hadn't aborted my mission to Peru and I had been able to get something going there. But I still get his association now. I feel his presence in my life daily and occasionally get something more than that. And, as mahak says, I'm no one special, just a small timer. Any qualification must be my steady, faithful dedication to following Srila Prabhupada's instructions and example. Any of his disciples could get the kinds of experiences I've had. And I'm sure that if I had been even more profoundly dedicated over the last 30 years, I would have gotten even more (although I'm not sure how much I could have handled).

[Guruvani]

 

I'm not sure I understand what you say in false in mahak's post.

He said:

 

Babhru das and others, know that Srila Prabhupada personally related to his disciples, no matter how big or small.

 

I said that was not true, because I was also in ISKCON for a couple of years before Srila Prabhupada passed and from what I saw I can honestly say that what Mahak is saying is false.

 

Maybe it's because I joined in Los Angeles and got my experience at probably the largest temple in the western world at that time, but what myself and many new devotees of the time experienced was not what Mahaksha is saying about everybody getting personal attention from Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Even before I ever entered the brahmacari asrama, even when I was a dope smokin hipster surfer hanging out at laguna, I had personal exchange with Srila Prabhupada. I was merely helping the then TP Srivanivas das and Gangarama das tear down the walls of the building to facillitate his short visit there, when it was all over, he glanced my way and I cannot even describe the personal touch and personal darsana.

 

Maybe it is the recipient, maybe the disciple responsibility comes to play. Because, after all, a clear understanding of how the relationship between guru and disciple is built and maintained is taught by him, and it is very clear. The disciple investigates the guru to see if he is one one MUST surrender to, and not separate from that, the guru exami8nes the disciple to see if he is fit to be disciple. I accept the role of his confidential advanced devotees, my elder godbrothers, who helped him make this decision of potential worthiness to be accepted as disciple, but there was no loss of personal, reciprocal confidentiality in such an arrangement.

 

The one who recommended me to Srila Prabhupada, the late song and dance man sri sudama swami, was the perfect go-between. He conferred with Srila Prabhupada on my behalf, and conveyed Srila Prabhupadas personal instructions to me in return. I had a problem, sudama told him, he told sudama his response to give to me. This is the way it worked. I dont know about new dwaraka, I got to the point that I couldnt ever get comfortable there under Karandharaqs leadership. He liked workers kept in the dark, peyton place householder scenes, etc. The devotees I met there all wanted a way out. Maybe that was the problem, maybe this is where the cheap revisionism was born, this idea that Srila Prabhupada is too big for the little guy, too important to be bothered by questions and submissive inquiry. But this is the most bogus thing I have ever heard, that he is the god in the limo and everyone back off and just be satisfied with the decisions of the secretaries.

 

I thwarted the secretaries and the gundas with dandas, and gave him a garland without going thru the gauntlet of petitioning the GBC first. They tried to prevent this exchange, but Srila Prabhupada made them stop the limo, and made the sanyassi get out to retrieve the garland I had made. And I had just told him, thru sudama, that I could not accept second initiation from him because of my herb usage.

 

You say false, but this is how it is. I was not only a nobody, but in both cases, I was not even acting properly as a disciple, yet he is personally guiding me because I accept his version is non-different from that which Lord Nityananda Prabhu gives from within.

 

So, Im sorry your leadership did not do their job of acting on behalf of the acarya. Mine did, but then again, my leadership was rejected by the GBC, not once, but twice. Sudama repaired and retrieved the devotees on behalf of Srila Prabhupada after the previous TP was forced out by the politics Babhru speaks of, but then, Sudama and Subala both faced the same overbearing politics and left as well.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

 

So, Im sorry your leadership did not do their job of acting on behalf of the acarya.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

My leadership did exactly what Srila Prabhupada wanted them to do which was take charge of new devotees and make sure they got good training in Krishna consciousness.

 

I personally never begrudged my temple authorities from not pushing me into a personal meeting with Srila Prabhupada.

I was quite pleased to set as his feet and hear him lecture and preach.

 

I never felt worthy of personal contact and I never expected it or demanded it.

I got the same treatment that hundreds of other devotees got and I didn't feel so special that I needed to be singled out for personal instruction from Srila Prabhupada.

 

I revered and respected my authorities and I had many great godbrothers and devotees that were seeing to my welfare and training me and teaching me very nicely.

 

I was too shy and in awe of Srila Prabhupada.

I never felt that I deserved or needed some special attention from him.

 

If Srila Prabhupada wanted to personally meet all his new disciples I am sure that the ISKCON authorities would have followed his direct orders back then.

 

I got to see ISKCON at it's greatest glory and I can tell you it was magnificent.

[Gaurasundara]

 

TRANSLATION CC 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.” [...]

 

 

I think we both know the siddhanta is set in the examples of the mahajanas. They all got diksa. Even Mahaprabhu got it, if only to set an example.

[Gaurasundara]

This is unbelievable. Taking the shelter of a guru is <b>Point 1a</b> of Gaudiya siddhanta. <i>Adau gurvashrayam...</i>

[stonehearted]

 

Maybe it's because I joined in Los Angeles and got my experience at probably the largest temple in the western world at that time, but what myself and many new devotees of the time experienced was not what Mahaksha is saying about everybody getting personal attention from Srila Prabhupada.

 

A couple of quick points: First, he didn't say that Srila Prabhupada gave personal attention to each and every disciple. He said that he related personally to his disciples, whether they were big names or small timers. And he did. That's not false. That's my second point. What he said may be outside your experience, but that doesn't make it false. Okay?

[Guruvani]

 

First, he didn't say that Srila Prabhupada gave personal attention to each and every disciple. He said that he related personally to his disciples,

I think that is even more of a stretch than saying he gave all his disciples personal attention.

 

I don't think Srila Prabhupada related with a bunch of ex-hippies, street people and other assorted western mlecchas.

 

He came to deliver them, not to relate with them.

 

I think it is absurd to say that Srila Prabhupada, coming from a sheltered life in a family of pure Vaishnavas, could relate with the hippies and other assorted western people that appreciated his teachings on Sanatan Dharma.

 

I don't see that he related with them at all.

 

He was the acharya and they were disciples.

The acharya doesn't "relate with the masses" he instructs them and shows by example what it means to live a holy life in Krishna consciousness.

 

I think it is an insult to Srila Prabhupada to say that he "related" with the derelicts and hoodlums that joined ISKCON.

 

He was a stranger in a strange land of strange people.

 

I don't think that Prabhupada "related" with his disciples any more than Donald Trump could can relate with a bum on the street.

 

He enlightened them.

It wasn't his mission to relate with them.

 

Thats just dumb if you ask me.

[Guruvani]

 

This is unbelievable. Taking the shelter of a guru is Point 1a of Gaudiya siddhanta. Adau gurvashrayam...

 

but first you take shelter of a siksha guru.

you don't get initiation first and then get siksha.

That is not the way Vaishnavism works.

 

first, you take shelter of siksha guru and then later diksha.

 

nowhere does it say that one must first get diksha.

First you take shelter and get instructions from siksha guru.

 

No Gaudiya guru accepts a disciple that has not had proper siksha and proper training in purascharya-vidhi and sadhana.

 

So, one must accept siksha guru first.

You can accept Srila Prabhupada as siksha guru by hearing his instructions in his books.

 

Then, when one is trained in sadhana and practised purascharya-vidhi, then he can take diksha.

 

Siksha guru lives in his instructions.

You don't need physical connection to siksha guru, because siksha guru lives in his teachings and instructions forever.

[theist]

 

 

Missed it. Try reading the definititon of diksa again. Hint: It is bold print.

[theist]

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya 13.18 purport

[theist]

 

This is unbelievable. Taking the shelter of a guru is Point 1a of Gaudiya siddhanta. Adau gurvashrayam...

The quote that has you so in disbelief contains nothing from me. Only a CC verse quoting Mahaprabu, and a quote from Srila Prabhupada's purport quoting Jiva Gosvami.

 

Now what was it you don't believe again?

[Guruvani]

 

A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.

 

So, expert study of the revealed scriptures is the process of diksha.

 

Any fool that thinks some formal ritual with a formal guru is ACTUAL SPIRITUAL DIKSHA is a cheater who is only cheating himself.

 

It's a damn shame how cheapened the process of diksha has become nowadays and reduced down to some formal ritual instead of "expert in the study of revealed scriptures".

 

That formal process is for those who want to be cheated.

[muralidhar_das]

Theist,

you asked me to respond to this

 

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.”

 

...

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

 

...

 

Chanting the Holy Name does not require formal initiation. Diksha is the process that awakens transcendental knowledge. One can complete the whole process of devotional service simply by chanting the Holy Name.

 

and this

 

 

 

Madhya 15.106 - Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Whoever chants the holy name of Krishna just once is worshipable and is the topmost human being.

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

 

 

Well, Mahaprabhu makes a distinction between chanting and all the other processes of sadhana bhakti. But then when someone does some of the other processes such as offering prayers or puja you will of course say some of the names of the Lord, and thus you will be "chanting". For example, before doing archan (puja) you will do arcamana while saying "om sri kesavaya namah". Since Deity worship and other practices also involve "chanting" why isn't Deity worship considered to be better than doing chanting alone? In Deity worship you are making offerings of flowers etc and you are not just making sounds with your lips!

 

Well, the answer is that the pure chanting of the holy name free from all offence and nama-abhasa is different from the chanting done by impure souls.

 

Someone may chant the Holy Name for hundreds of lifetimes but if they do not follow the proper method of devotional service they will not attain the goal of life:

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.16

 

bahu janma kare yadi śravaṇa, kīrtana

tabu ta' nā pāya kṛṣṇa-pade prema-dhana

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

 

Therefore, the Acaryas recommend that people accept initiation according to the established method given in the scriptures.

 

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.”

 

Diksa is the process by which a person attains transcendental knowledge.

 

In the Hari bhakti vilasa the process of diksa is described. There, you wil also see this verse:

 

 

grhita visnu diksako visnu pujaparo narah

vaisnavo'bhihito'bhijnair itaro'smad avaisnavahch

A person who is initiated in Visnu mantras, and who is expert in worshiping Lord Visnu, such a person is known as a Vaisnava. Besides this, everyone else is an avaisnava. (Hari Bhakti Vilasa 1.55, quoting the Padma Purana)

[Guruvani]

The Maha Mantra is better than all the Vishnu mantras combined.

The Maha Mantra contains all the Vishnu mantras within it.

 

So, getting Maha Mantra from a Vaishnava is the topmost diksha into Vishnu mantra.

 

The Maha Mantra is supreme above all Vishnu mantras.

 

In fact, there are no proper brahmanas in kali-yuga to chant Vishnu mantra.

 

The Maha mantra is the only mantra fit for kali-yugites to chant.

 

No Vishnu mantra can be chanted effectively in kali-yuga.

 

The kali-yuga dogs are only eligible for Maha-mantra - not Vishnu mantra that is the right of genuine brahmanas that don't exist in Kali Yuga.

[stonehearted]

 

I think that is even more of a stretch than saying he gave all his disciples personal attention.

 

I don't think Srila Prabhupada related with a bunch of ex-hippies, street people and other assorted western mlecchas.

 

He came to deliver them, not to relate with them.

Actually, he came to engage us. And anyone who had any dealings with him can tell you that he certainly did relate with us, as people, as students. I've been a teacher for a long time, and I can tell you that the aloofness you seem to ascribe to Srila Prabhupada disqualifies a teacher. He said himself that those who came, at least in the first few years, had clearly had some contact with Mahaprabhu in previous lives. He doesn't see us as bums and derelicts. He came, as Srila Sridhar Maharaja averred, as the emissary of Nityananda Prabhu. Moved by Nitai's causeless mercy, he lived among us, ate our cooking, joked with us, berated us when he thought it may be helplful--did so many things to help us see that our real life is in Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita.

 

 

I think it is absurd to say that Srila Prabhupada, coming from a sheltered life in a family of pure Vaishnavas, could relate with the hippies and other assorted western people that appreciated his teachings on Sanatan Dharma.

 

I don't see that he related with them at all.

 

He was the acharya and they were disciples.

The acharya doesn't "relate with the masses" he instructs them and shows by example what it means to live a holy life in Krishna consciousness.

Well, I conceded that there may be much you didn't experience, much you don't see. He didn't become one of us, to be sure, but he did give us the vision that we could be with him.

 

 

I think it is an insult to Srila Prabhupada to say that he "related" with the derelicts and hoodlums that joined ISKCON.

 

He was a stranger in a strange land of strange people.

There's no doubt that he found us beyond odd, and that he found New York and the rest of America a strange land. But he see us as eternal servants of Krishna. That's the vision he shared with us repeatedly. That's the vision of an acharya.

 

 

I don't think that Prabhupada "related" with his disciples any more than Donald Trump could can relate with a bum on the street.

. . .

It wasn't his mission to relate with them.

 

Thats just dumb if you ask me.

Oh--did I ask?

[Gaurasundara]

 

but first you take shelter of a siksha guru.

you don't get initiation first and then get siksha.

That is not the way Vaishnavism works.

 

first, you take shelter of siksha guru and then later diksha.

 

nowhere does it say that one must first get diksha.

First you take shelter and get instructions from siksha guru.

<i>guru-padAzrayas tasmAd kRSNa-<b>dIkSAdi</b>-zikSaNam.</i>

I suppose if one were to get fussy, we could observe that Sri Rupa Gosvami mentioned diksa first, implying that diksa must come before siksa. But I won't, because I know what you mean.

 

Of course siksa comes first, that all depends on what exactly you mean by siksa. If you're talking about "basic knowledge" then that is sravanam about Krishna-katha, I suppose. The siksa mentioned by Sri Rupa Gosvami in BRS relates to instructions that can only/mostly be transmitted in relation to or with diksa.

 

 

 

No Gaudiya guru accepts a disciple that has not had proper siksha and proper training in purascharya-vidhi and sadhana.

A lot of Gaudiya gurus out there may be more compassionate than you think. Srila Prabhupada had tons of disciples who did not have "proper siksha and proper training in purascharya-vidhi and sadhana".

 

 

So, one must accept siksha guru first. You can accept Srila Prabhupada as siksha guru by hearing his instructions in his books.

I'm not sure if Prabhupada himself would appreciate this process. Of course his teachings are preserved for posterity and can give inspiration to generations of future devotees and potential devotees, but I'm not sure if this strictly counts as "accepting Prabhupada as siksa-guru". For example, what if I have a question/problem that is not discussed in Prabhupada's books?

 

 

Siksha guru lives in his instructions.

You don't need physical connection to siksha guru, because siksha guru lives in his teachings and instructions forever.

Well this is your opinion.

[Gaurasundara]

 

Perhaps there isn't a need for patronising comments. I'm not particularly interested in the purports of Prabhupada on this matter although it is sufficient to note that there are a multiplicity of quotes from him that attest to the importance of initiation. Yes, "ritual" initiation.

 

It is easy to speak glibly about divya-jnanam as an esoteric stage of spiritual evolution that may not necessarily be brought about by the "ritual" ceremony. However, there is no denying that undertaking the "ritual" ceremony is the process that has been advocated by all of the major Gaudiya Acharyas from Mahaprabhu onwards. Even Prabhupada.

[Gaurasundara]

 

The quote that has you so in disbelief contains nothing from me. Only a verse quoting Mahaprabu, a quote from Srila Prabhupada's purport quoting Jiva Gosvami.

 

Now what was it you don't believe again?

Really rather the way some devotees pluck random quotes from shastra (or from the lectures/purports of individual gurus) that really act as a twist on a fundamental path of Gaudiya siddhanta. I've seen this a number of times from a number of people even from those who may not actually realise what they saying (so I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt), but you're not going to post the letter to Dinesh again, are you?

 

Again, there are a multiplicity of quotes from Prabhupad on the importance of taking a spiritual master and also on the importance of undergoing the "ritual" initiation. Sri Jiva Gosvami is also pretty clear on what <i>exactly</i> he means by divya-jnanam, which I trust you have also read from Bhakti-sandarbha. I generally think it's easy to pick up "all-encompassing" quotes that portray a lack of need for initiation in order to justify one's uninitiated status. Nothing wrong with being uninitiated (I'm uninitiated so I'm in the same boat) but you wouldn't catch me presenting a slant on Gaudiya siddhanta that looks as if diksa is unnecessary. For me, that is a betrayal of the path that the mahajanas trod. They all took "ritual" diksa.