Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada teaches us:

 

 

Sanātana Gosvāmī wrote his Vaiṣṇava smṛti, Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, which was specifically meant for India. In those days, India was more or less following the principle of smārta-vidhi. Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī had to keep pace with this, and his Hari-bhakti-vilāsa was compiled with this in mind. According to smārta-brāhmaṇas, a person not born in a brāhmaṇa family could not be elevated to the position of a brāhmaṇa. Sanātana Gosvāmī, however, says in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (2.12) that anyone can be elevated to the position of a brāhmaṇa by the process of initiation.

yathā kāñcanatāḿ yāti kāḿsyaḿ rasa-vidhānataḥ

tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaḿ jāyate nṛṇām

 

"As bell metal is turned to gold when mixed with mercury in an alchemical process, so one who is properly trained and initiated by a bona fide spiritual master immediately becomes a brāhmaṇa."

There is a difference between the smārta process and the gosvāmī process. According to the smārta process, one cannot be accepted as a brāhmaṇa unless he is born in a brāhmaṇa family. According to the gosvāmī process, the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa and the Nārada-pañcarātra, anyone can be a brāhmaṇa if he is properly initiated by a bona fide spiritual master. This is also the verdict of Śukadeva Gosvāmī in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (2.4.18):

 

kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā

ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ

ye 'nye ca pāpā yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ

śudhyanti tasmai prabhaviṣṇave namaḥ

 

"Kirātas, Hūṇas, Āndhras, Pulindas, Pulkaśas, Ābhīras, Śumbhas, Yavanas and members of the Khasa races, and even others who are addicted to sinful acts, can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him."

 

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

Oh--did I ask?

don't be so testy PRABHU!!!

 

I am just trying to see if you are more humble than grass and tolerant as the tree, but you just failed the EXAM mr. professor.:wacko:

[Gaurasundara]

Oh man, that whole purport ought to be read <b>in full</b> to get an understanding either of Prabhupada's views on the subject, or of the Gaudiya siddhanta on the whole in this matter. The conclusion is pretty clear.

 

Examples of devotees who achieved perfection without undergoing "initiation" and just by the power of Harinam, are usually the exceptions that prove the rule. I think that to think of oneself as such an exception is the height of arrogance and a betrayal of the humility that Mahaprabhu expects each and every follower of His to possess and wear around his neck.

[stonehearted]

 

don't be so testy PRABHU!!!

 

I am just trying to see if you are more humble than grass and tolerant as the tree, but you just failed the EXAM mr. professor.:wacko:

Shoot, all you had to do was ask, and I would have told you that, of course, I AM the most humble and tolerant. Maybe I could have gotten away with that if I'd used a little winkie thingy.

 

Oh--and does humble and tolerant mean you have to buy every silly proposition anyone makes. Don't think so.

 

Watch out--I may be coming your way some time soon.

[Gaurasundara]

Actually, never mind. Forgive me please, but I find this discussion preposterous as per the thread title. I'd like to withdraw, thanks.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Actually, never mind. Forgive me please, but I find this discussion preposterous as per the thread title. I'd like to withdraw, thanks.

 

Yep, count me out too.

[stonehearted]

My word would be dopey. I guess I was drawn in when I saw my name. I'm out.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Watch out--I may be coming your way some time soon.

Thanks for the heads-up.

 

I'll make sure to walk out the door and wave as you go by.

 

 

I hope you enjoy your visit.

 

Have you ever been to Gator land before?

 

When you get here you must cough up the 5 bucks to see Kanapaha Botanical Gardens and also spend at least one day at Crescent Beach.

 

Maybe you are too "advanced" for such worldly pleasures?

 

don't expect to see me.

 

I am a hermit.

 

I haven't had a personal friend in years and I don't expect to change my ways anytime soon.

 

My kids are my only association.

But, they are all I want.

[Guruvani]

 

Sanātana Gosvāmī wrote his Vaiṣṇava smṛti, Hari-bhakti-vilāsa, which was specifically meant for India. In those days, India was more or less following the principle of smārta-vidhi. Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī had to keep pace with this, and his Hari-bhakti-vilāsa was compiled with this in mind.

Now, watch all the vapuvadis run for shelter!!!

 

If you clowns followed hari-bhakti-vilasa you wouldn't be loitering in internet forums due to a lack of engagement in suddha bhakti.

 

Get real and quit posing.

 

We know you clowns down follow hari-bhakti-vilasa.

 

Nobody follows hari-bhakti-vilasa.

 

Your guru or acharya didn't follow hari-bhakti-vilasa because it was for smarta brahmanas that the Goswamis tried to convert to vraja bhakti.

 

You guys need to stop profiling and get real.

 

You are nowhere near hari-bhakti-vilasa, so please don't use it as a club to fight your losing battles with.

[Guruvani]

 

Yep, count me out too.

With those references from hari-bhakti-vilasa that you didn't understand, you were already out before you were ever in.

[muralidhar_das]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> grhita visnu diksako visnu pujaparo narah

vaisnavo'bhihito'bhijnair itaro'smad avaisnavahch

A person who is initiated in Visnu mantras, and who is expert in worshiping Lord Visnu, such a person is known as a Vaisnava. Besides this, everyone else is an avaisnava. (Hari Bhakti Vilasa 1.55, quoting the Padma Purana)

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Yes it is hard for me to understand the direct meaning of this statement in Hari bhakti vilasa. I'm too dopey.

 

Bye

 

 

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[Guruvani]

 

My word would be dopey. I guess I was drawn in when I saw my name. I'm out.

 

yep, strike three and you're out!!!

[Guruvani]

 

Actually, never mind. Forgive me please, but I find this discussion preposterous as per the thread title. I'd like to withdraw, thanks.

 

You don't have to announce it or ask for permission to leave the discussion.

Nobody is twisting your arm to make comments about things you don't know much about.

[Guruvani]

A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

 

 

A Vaiṣṇava is immediately purified, provided he follows the rules and regulations of his bona fide spiritual master. It is not necessary that the rules and regulations followed in India be exactly the same as those in Europe, America and other Western countries. Simply imitating without effect is called niyamāgraha.

 

Imitating without effect?

 

Hey guys, does that sound familiar to any of us?

 

Posing and profiling doesn't amount to diddly-squat.

[theist]

 

Theist,

 

 

 

Well, Mahaprabhu makes a distinction between chanting and all the other processes of sadhana bhakti. But then when someone does some of the other processes such as offering prayers or puja you will of course say some of the names of the Lord, and thus you will be "chanting". For example, before doing archan (puja) you will do arcamana while saying "om sri kesavaya namah". Since Deity worship and other practices also involve "chanting" why isn't Deity worship considered to be better than doing chanting alone? In Deity worship you are making offerings of flowers etc and you are not just making sounds with your lips!

 

Well, the answer is that the pure chanting of the holy name free from all offence and nama-abhasa is different from the chanting done by impure souls.

 

Someone may chant the Holy Name for hundreds of lifetimes but if they do not follow the proper method of devotional service they will not attain the goal of life:

 

 

Therefore, the Acaryas recommend that people accept initiation according to the established method given in the scriptures.

 

 

Diksa is the process by which a person attains transcendental knowledge.

 

In the Hari bhakti vilasa the process of diksa is described. There, you wil also see this verse:

 

No one denies that other limbs of bhakti are helpful. But you are talking as if they are mandatory instead of just adjuntive. HUGE DIFFERENCE prabhu.

 

And you agree the prime benefit of these actions is the chanting of the name.

 

Therefore I see the name as all important. This is not Dvapara Yuga. The present yuga dharma is chanting th holy name. Devotees must stick to this simple realization or else they become guilty of obstructing the free flow of the holy name by their insistence on placing qualifiers on who can chant the name etc. You know like you need a formal initiation ceremony to purify you to chant Hare Krsna. This idea is clearly against the clear words of Mahaprabhu who taught that the holy name is not dependent on intiation rites.

 

You use the hari-bhakti-vilasa to counter the words of the CC. That leaves you in a quandry not me. The Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa was not written with me in mind.

 

Also are you suggesting that I need formal initiation before I can offer MY eternal Lord and friend, the very source of my being, a fruit, flower or water?

 

Do I need some formal initiation ceremony before I can offer the fruits of my labor to propagate Krsna consciousness? How about sweeping the temple grounds?

 

I accept the need for a devotee to be raised in consciousness to the braminical standard to do pujari work on the temple altar and that is recognized through formal initiation rites but what has happened is people think that is a must for entering spititual life now instead of being an entrance to temple Deity contact.

 

The emphasise on the supreme and independent nature of the holy name needs to be asserted and those obscuring it with their religious codes and rites need to learn to keep things in proper perspective and stop placing their ideas between the fallen jivas and the chanting of the Hare Krsna Maha-mantra.

 

Don't be a separatist and don't be an obstructionist.

[theist]

 

 

The purport quote was the quote from Jiva Gosvami but I take it you are not particularly interested in that either.

 

Yes the word diksa is used in so many different contexts it can be confusing with people pulling up one quote to counter the a quote from someone else.

 

I have found a safe zone above the fray in the above quote from Jiva gosvami defining diksa. I perceive that as the essence of the matter. I'll leave the squabble od quotes and counter quotes to others to sort out andd just be satisfied with Mahaprabhupada clear statement and Jiva Gosvami's defintion off diksa.

 

You don't like that approach? Ok that's your right. But at the testing time of death I don't think your fire sacrifice will carry much weight. On the other hand the degree of progress you have made in accepting transcendental knowledge, or diksa, by assimilating the essenctial truth will carry weight and determine your fate.

 

 

[

 

Glibly? You insult me while admonishing me about perceived patronizing remarks. Maybe you have globs of glib in your ears preventing you from hearing the simple message of Mahaprabhu.

[theist]

 

Really rather the way some devotees pluck random quotes from shastra (or from the lectures/purports of individual gurus) that really act as a twist on a fundamental path of Gaudiya siddhanta. I've seen this a number of times from a number of people even from those who may not actually realise what they saying (so I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt), but you're not going to post the letter to Dinesh again, are you?

 

You call CC Madhya-15.108 a random quote!? Not too bright of a choice IMO, but you take your chances as you see fit.

 

Dinesh letter. Thanks for reminding me. I'll post it again soon. Be sure to skip all my posts to avoid reading it.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, there are a multiplicity of quotes from Prabhupad on the importance of taking a spiritual master and also on the importance of undergoing the "ritual" initiation. Sri Jiva Gosvami is also pretty clear on what exactly he means by divya-jnanam, which I trust you have also read from Bhakti-sandarbha. I generally think it's easy to pick up "all-encompassing" quotes that portray a lack of need for initiation in order to justify one's uninitiated status. Nothing wrong with being uninitiated (I'm uninitiated so I'm in the same boat) but you wouldn't catch me presenting a slant on Gaudiya siddhanta that looks as if diksa is unnecessary. For me, that is a betrayal of the path that the mahajanas trod. They all took "ritual" diksa.

 

You still don't get it. DIKSA IS AN ABSOLUTE NECESSITY FOR EVERY LIVING BEING. Diksas refers to the rebirth of the living being into spiritual consciousness. That is not optional. "ye must be born again of the spirit".

 

Your problem is thinking Jiva Gosvami's defintion is laxking in some way whereas I take it as the cream of all definitons.

 

I am emphasizing the essence of how the word diksa is used because only the essence is essential. Why bother propogating anything less then the essential?

 

And no we are not in the same boat. I am in my own boat and you are in yours. We are not rowing in the same direction.

 

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say you are not initiated yet you talk as if you are presenting transcendental knowledge. How did you acquire transcendental knowledge without fulfilling your defintion of diksa? You are a walking talking contradiction which you compound by your high sounding "GV" talk. Forget all this high sounding pseudo intellectualism and become simple. Don't try to harmonize every little statement or writing that may appear contradictory and just focus on what is essential for coming to love Krsna and others. Let anything else just fall away as unimportant, resolved or unresolved.

 

"When your mind has passed out of the dense forest of delusion you will become indifferent to all that is heard or to be heard." Gita

And that includes non-essential religious considerations as well.

Hope that is not to glib for you.

[theist]

 

 

Examples of devotees who achieved perfection without undergoing "initiation" and just by the power of Harinam, are usually the exceptions that prove the rule. I think that to think of oneself as such an exception is the height of arrogance and a betrayal of the humility that Mahaprabhu expects each and every follower of His to possess and wear around his neck.

 

And how many achieved perfection without hari nama?

 

But if that is your belief that formal intiation is essential to achieve love of God then why in the hell aren't you formally initiated? Stop being a hypocrite and put action to your beliefs. Instead you presume to give siksa on the subject to others that you don't follow yourself.

 

Walk your talk first then speak.

 

Taking Jiva Gosvami's defintion of diksa is the opposite of being an exception to the rule. In his defintion there is no room for an exception for any living being past present or future. Because you haven;t taken the time to meditate on his statement and instead see it as something to debate against you have not yet understood what he is saying. IOW's shut up and listen for minute. Not to me but to Jiva Gosvami.

[muralidhar_das]

 

You use the hari-bhakti-vilasa to counter the words of the CC. That leaves you in a quandry not me.

 

 

 

CC very clearly states that someone may chant the Holy Name for hundreds of lifetimes but if they do not follow the proper method of devotional service they will not attain the goal of life:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 8.16

bahu janma kare yadi śravaṇa, kīrtana

tabu ta' nā pāya kṛṣṇa-pade prema-dhana

If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

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Therefore the Acaryas recommend that people accept initiation according to the established method given in the scriptures. But if you or anyone else simply love to chant Harinam then I'm not opposing that. I merely point out this verse in CC saying that it may take a person hundreds of lifetimes to attain Krishna Prema.

[muralidhar_das]

 

You call CC Madhya-15.108 a random quote!?

 

CC Madhya 15.108: "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [caṇḍāla] can be delivered.

 

 

 

Theist, it doesn't make sense to quote just this verse and to disregard Adi 8.16-18

 

 

CC Ādi 8.16: If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting.

 

 

CC Ādi 8.17: "By cultivating philosophical knowledge one can understand his spiritual position and thus be liberated, and by performing sacrifices and pious activities one can achieve sense gratification in a higher planetary system, but the devotional service of the Lord is so rare that even by executing hundreds and thousands of such sacrifices one cannot obtain it."

 

 

CC Ādi 8.18: If a devotee wants liberation or material sense gratification from the Lord, Kṛṣṇa immediately delivers it, but pure devotional service He keeps hidden.

[Laulyam]

Vrajanatha: What are the symptoms of those who are liberated from maya?

Babaji: They have eight symptoms, which Chandogya Upanisad (8.7.1) describes as follows:

 

 

 

ya atmapahata-papma vijaro vimrtyur visoko ‘vijighatso ‘pipasah

 

 

 

satya-kamah satya-sankalpah so ‘nvestavyah

 

 

 

 

The liberated soul has eight qualities: He is freed from all sinful activity, as well as the addiction to sinful activities that arises because of the nescience of maya; he is not subject to the miseries of old age; he always remains young and fresh, and has no tendency to decay; he never comes to an end, or dies; he is never morose; he has no sensual desires; he has a natural inclination towards serving Krsna, with no other desires; and all of his desires become realized. These eight qualities are absent from the baddha-jiva.

Vrajanatha: It is said in the Dasa-mula sloka, “The good fortune of the jiva who is wandering aimlessly in the material world arises when he meets a rasika Vaisnava who relishes the nectar of Hari.“ One might raise the objection that one could eventually attain hari-bhakti by performing pious activities, such as astanga-yoga and cultivating brahma-jnana.

Babaji: These are Sri Krsna’s own words:

 

 

 

na rodhayati mam yogo na sankhyam dharma eva ca

 

 

 

na svadhyayas tapas tyago nesta-purttam na daksina

 

 

 

vratani yajnas chandamsi tirthani niyama yamah

 

 

 

yathavarundhe sat-sangah sarva-sangapaho hi mam

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.12.1-2)

 

Sri Bhagavan said, “I am not controlled by those who perform yoga, study sankhya philosophy, perform religious duties and pious activities, study the Vedas, perform penances and austerities, practice renunciation or accept sannyasa, perform sacrifice and welfare activities, give donations in charity, practice fasting and other vows, perform yajna, chant confidential mantras, go on pilgrimage, and follow all the rules and regulations for spiritual life. However, one who accepts sat-sanga, which destroys all material attachments, can control Me. How much can I say? Astanga-yoga can slightly satisfy Me indirectly, but sadhu-sanga controls Me completely.”

It is also stated in Hari-bhakti-sudhodhaya (8.51):

 

 

 

yasya yat-sangatih pumso manivat syat sa tad-gunah

 

 

 

sva-kularddhyaitato dhiman sva-yuthany eva samsrayet

 

 

 

 

Just as a jewel or crystal reflects the color of the object with which it is in contact, so a person develops qualities according to the company he keeps.

Therefore, by keeping association with pure sadhus, one can become a pure sadhu. Thus the association of pure sadhus is the root cause of all good fortune.

In the sastras, the word nihsanga means ‘to live in solitude.’ This implies that we should only live in the association of bhaktas.

Nihsanga means to leave all other association and to take the association of bhaktas. Even unintentional association with saintly people brings good fortune for the jiva.

 

 

 

sango yah samsrter hetur asatsu vihito ’dhiya

 

 

 

sa eva sadhusu krto nihsangatvaya kalpate

 

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.23.55)

 

The association of materialists is the cause of bondage in the material world, even though one may not know that this is so. Similarly, association with saintly people, even if it happens by chance or unknowingly, is called nihsanga.

It is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.5.32):

 

 

 

naisam matis tavad urukramanghrim

 

 

 

sprsaty anarthapagamo yad-arthah

 

 

 

mahiyasam pada-rajo-’bhisekam

 

 

 

niskincananam na vrnita yavat

 

The lotus feet of Urukrama, who is glorified for His uncommon activities, destroy all anarthas in the heart. However, those who are very materialistic cannot be attached to His lotus feet until they smear their bodies with the dust from the lotus feet of great souls who are absorbed in bhagavatprema and who are completely freed from material attachments

[Guruvani]

Diksha into Krishna consciousness is about learning how to chant the Holy Name of the Lord without offense.

 

There are ten offenses against the Holy Name and these are impressed upon the disciple at the time of initiation.

 

There are the four regulative principles that are also given to the disciple at the time of initiation..

 

Srila Sanatan Goswami has presented in hari-bhakti-vilasa a standard and a system that was meant to somewhat conform the the smarta culture that was prominent in India at that time.

Srila Sanatan Goswami gave the Gaudiya sect a respectable facade that was meant to appear as being conforming to some of the basic principles of smarta vidhi and thereby reducing the critcism and condemnation that could come from the smarta society that was most prominent in the Hindu communities.

Srila Sanatan Goswami tried to reduce the criticism of the smarta religious leaders and present the Gaudiya sect as a respectable form of brahminical culture.

 

What Srila Sanatan Goswami did in writing hari-bhakti-vilasa should not be artificially imposed upon devotees in the western world where smarta culture does not exist.

 

In the western world some of the smarta vesha of the Gaudiya sect can be eliminated and exchanged for an image and a system that actually compliments the prominent and prevailing religious concepts of western societies.

 

So, just as Sanatan Goswami adapted Krishna consciousness to a society where smarta culture was prominent, Srila Prabhupad had to adopt Krishna consciousness in a way that was more compatible with western society.

 

So, the attempt to impose hari-bhakti-vilasa on western devotees is artificial and unnecessary.

 

Srila Prabhupada tried to make Krishna consciousness a practical ideology that was within the range of possibilities of western people.

 

Fanatic and blind attempts to impose upon western people the same standards that Srila Sanatan Goswami established for devotees living within the parameters of smarta India is actually wrong and actually an obstruction to the spreading of Krishna consciousness all over the world.

[mahak]

Again, the revisionists do not engage in discussions, they bully their way by never listening, only reading their own posts full of what they think.

 

So, you can discuss your ideas that Srila Prabhupada had nothing to do with his disciples, that he was much too important for us. If that were the case, I would have rejected him 39 years ago.

 

But guru tattwa, as taught by him is available.

 

 

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

 

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

 

The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness."

 

mahaksadasa: If one has no relationship with guru, if guru has no relationship with disciple, then there is no guru, no disciple.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

Again, the revisionists do not engage in discussions, they bully their way by never listening, only reading their own posts full of what they think.

 

So, you can discuss your ideas that Srila Prabhupada had nothing to do with his disciples, that he was much too important for us. If that were the case, I would have rejected him 39 years ago.

 

But guru tattwa, as taught by him is available.

 

 

 

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

 

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

 

The first process is that of surrender. We have to find an exalted person and willingly surrender before him. The sastras enjoin that before we take a guru we study him carefully to find out whether we can surrender to him. We should not accept a guru suddenly, out of fanaticism. That is very dangerous. The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit. That is the way a relationship is established between the guru and disciple. Everything is provided, but we must take up the process seriously. Then we can be trained to become a bona fide disciple. First we must find a bona fide guru, establish our relationship with him, and act accordingly. Then our life will be successful, for the guru can enlighten the sincere disciple who is in darkness."

 

mahaksadasa: If one has no relationship with guru, if guru has no relationship with disciple, then there is no guru, no disciple.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

you keep preaching theoretical concepts.

I keep emphasising the actual living example that Srila Prabhupada demonstrated in ISKCON.

 

You can make all these false claims that Srila Prabhupada related with and personally cared for all his disciples, but I know for sure that there are literally thousands of formal initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada that never got any personal attention from Srila Prabhupada.

 

You refer to a smaller group of devotees that did get some personal attention from Srila Prabhupada and I keep refering to the majority of ISKCON devotees that did not get personal attention from Srila Prabhupada.

 

The majority of the 5000 or so disciples of Srila Prabhupada did not get personal attention from him.

 

Out of those 5000 disciples maybe a few dozen or a hundred or so got personal attention that amounted to more than glance or a smile.

 

So, I think you are presenting a false picture of ISKCON as a whole.

 

I think you are grasping at straws trying to win an argument that you don't deserve to win.

[Guest guest]

I never argue to win, this is someone elses agenda. You win, I concede. You win with your idea that Srila Prabhupada is not worth approaching because he is way out there somewhere. You win with your idea that ISKCON is the guru to take shelter of, and that the founder is unapproachable in his Ivory Tower, behind the shaded glass of the limosene. But I was not part of your arguement, because I was not talking of establishing relationships with some foundation made of imperfect managers. I was speaking of Srila Prabhupada, and from 1974-77, I was not a member of ISKCON, yet I seemed to get very much attention from him, and from 1977 to the present, all the ideas presented by Bhakti Tom concerning vapu and vani are there for me to take shelter of.

 

So where is your victory party, maybe ISKCON will fund the celebration. When ISKCON finally goes bankrupt and dies, you will no longer have the vapu of ISKCON, but you can take shelter of the vani of ISKCON.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa