Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

ISKCON is a society of persons governed by persons. It has a culture and needs like any other society. That's basic anthropology, sociology.

You want to talk about mental. Read the GBC resolutions.

Listen to an typical ISKCON lecture.

Fair enough, dear friend.

 

I grew up in ISKCON. I have visited ISKCON New Dwaraka a number of times in the past 10 years.

 

All the criticisms ring true to a degree--even from my very limited experience.

 

What seems unfair are the sweeping generalizations made about ISKCON so casually on these forums. No doubt, many here have far more experience with that organization than I do, but who can say they've visited each and every ISKCON temple and spoken with each member to guage their mood and temprement?

 

No doubt, due to it's scale, ISKCON New Dwaraka (Mayapur, Vrindavan, etc.) needs to be run in a more formal fashion. How formal are the dealings of the Vaishnavas at some small ISKCON temple in Eastern Europe?

 

Now, for all my fond nostalgia for those idyllic days of my childhood, I'd like to think that I'm not sentimental when it comes to ISKCON. If ISKCON were to disappear tommorrow, I have no doubt that the teachings of Srila Prabhupada would continue to purify this realm for many many years.

 

At the same time, I wish to acknowledge and pay tribute to the many ISKCON devotees who are serving faithfully and without seeking prestige.

 

Even (or, should I say "especially") the Temple President of New Dwaraka, Svavasa Prabhu, with whom I've never had a long conversation, strikes me as such a sincere dedicated servitor of his Gurudev. It's amazing that the strain of his position does not show more on his face. It's amazing to me that he can smile as freely as he does.

 

All Glories to the Assembled Devotees!!!

[Guest guest]

 

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be source of inspiration for you.

 

(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

[Guest guest]

The topic has been beaten to death already.

 

[Guest guest]

And exception that makes the rule.

 

 

I guess it depends what ISKCON temple you are around.

The New Raman Reti Temple in Alachua Florida is the largest settlement of devotees in the western hemisphere but is set up in a way that the GBC can't dictate around here. The devotees in the community here call the shots and manage this temple the way they like. Most ISKCON gurus wont come near the place. But, occasionally one of them pops in for a torture test.

 

The mood around New Raman Reti is a lot different than the rest of the ISKCON temples. It's really about Srila Prabhupada at New Raman Reti, but there are assorted devotees of all types around.

 

Most of ISKCON is a political mess, but anybody can show up at New Raman Reti and attend the program without getting harrassed by some temple goon.

 

All the ISKCON ecclesiastical bureaucracy has virtually no influence at New Raman Reti.

Unfortunately, the ISKCON bureaucrats meddle too much in most of the ISKCON temples around the world, but in Alachua Florida them goons have been put in check at the largest settlement of devotees in the USA.

[Guruvani]

It's more important to have a spiritually present guru than a physically present guru.

 

Srila Prabhupada is physically present in ISKCON anyway.

 

I see him in many of the ISKCON temples setting on the Vyasasana.

 

If that is not Srila Prabhupada, then why are the devotees worshiping him?

 

Are they idol worshipers or Prabhupada worshipers?

 

If that is not Srila Prabhupada in a physical form that they are doing puja to everyday, then what are they worshiping? Polyester resin?

[Guruvani]

NEWSFLASH!!

 

Srila Prabhupada spotted in physical form in Vrindavan in 2007!!!!

[stonehearted]

Groovy mridanga!

[krsna]

 

there are guidelines given in shastra on identifying the proper spiritual master.

 

neophytes who don't know these shastric directions should not be taking diksha just because it is fashionable around the Hare Krishna temples.

 

so, neophytes should first learn from authoritative shastra how to identify a spiritual master.

 

there is no need to be hasty about accepting a spiritual master.

 

Srila Prabhupada took initiation 11 years after he accepted Srila Saraswati Thakur as his spiritual master.

 

so, what is they hurry?

 

maybe that is a problem nowadays that too many neophytes are taking initiation without even knowing the shastric guidelines for accepting a spiritual master?

 

for me, there was never any question.

I knew Srila Prabhupada was my spiritual master and I didn't have to go through any shopping around for a guru phase.

 

It should be that easy for devotees coming to the movement even today, but unfortunately the ISKCON GBC has adopted a policy that makes choosing a guru something like playing a game of dice.

 

Spiritually, the diksha guru is the one who creates faith in Krishna in your heart.

Formal gurus based on other considerations is a bad formula and will dog the Krishna consciousness movement like bad case of staph infection as long as this system is being promoted in ISKCON.

 

I want a real guru who can give me KRSNA in truth, in tattva, a KRSNA-tattva-vit guru:

 

"A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform (second-class devotee) can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance." - Nectar of Instruction 5, Purport

 

Neophytes need not apply:

 

 

"A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance." - Nectar of Instruction 5, Purport

</I>

"There are three classes of devotees, namely first, second, and third class. The third-class devotees or the neophytes, who have no knowledge and are not detached from material association, but who are simply attracted by the preliminary process of worshiping the Deity in the temple, are called material devotees. Material devotees are more attached to material benefit than transcendental profit. Therefore, one has to make definite progress from the position of material devotional service to the second-class devotional position." - Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.12, Purport

</I>

"One has to raise himself at least to the stage of a second-class devotee and thus become eligible to know the Absolute Truth. A third-class devotee, therefore, has to receive the instructions of devotional service from the authoritative sources of Bhagavata. The number one Bhagavata is the established personality of devotee, and the other Bhagavatam is the message of Godhead. The third-class devotee therefore has to go to the personality of devotee in order to learn the instructions of devotional service." - Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.12, Purport

</I>

"The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. . . one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation one will eventually become degraded." - Nectar of Instruction 5, Purport

"The physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without. Without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart." - Room Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O?Grady -- May 23, 1974, Rome

</I>

"Sometimes in autumn the falls come down from the top of the hill to supply clean water, and sometimes they stop. Similarly, sometimes great saintly persons distribute clear knowledge, and sometimes they are silent". - Krishna Book ch. 20

 

 

"Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles." - Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.18, Purport

 

</B></I>

"The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on." - Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.18, Purport

 

 

 

 

"The third-class devotee is one whose faith is not very strong but he is eligible to be promoted to the position of second-class devotee or first-class devotee by the gradual cultivation of devotional service . . . such a person is called a third-class pure devotee. The last-mentioned are not actually pure devotees. They are almost in the devotional line, but their position is not very secure." - Teachings of Lord Chaitanya ch. 11

I pray that I don't get conned again and again as I've been so many times in the past , past lifetimes:

</I>

"Except for the association of pure devotees, any association is called kaitava, or cheating." -

Teachings of Lord Caitanya (Original Edition, Ch.15 paragraph 28)

[Laulyam]

Ultrasonic Sound

 

The ability to recognize divinity descends from above. We cannot see God with our mundane senses. What to speak of being able to see the infinite, our senses are so limited that our ears can only hear sound of a particular wavelength. We are told that the sun, the moon, and all the stars and planets are all revolving and creating a huge sound, but our ears cannot hear that high degree of ultrasonic sound. Nor can we hear subsonic sound with our ears. Our eyes are designed to catch only a particular wavelength of light. We cannot see either ultraviolet or infrared light. Our material senses are limited to a particular plane of perception.

Student: The guru accepts the responsibility to take his disciples back to godhead. So, when the guru departs, how does the disciple maintain contact with the guru?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: You see, it comes to the same point. Who is guru? And why is he guru? Guru, sastra, and sadhu are one and the same thing, and we have to appreciate that. Otherwise, should we think that our onward march will be guaranteed only by the vision of our eyes? The photo of our spiritual master is not our guru, although the photo has some connection with the real guru. The eye experience and the ear experience of a person is not the whole experience. The real experience is through the words, the idea that the guru has given. That is Krsna consciousness.

If I have a real interest in Krsna consciousness, I have to adjust all other things accordingly. Otherwise, if I miss the real thing that the guru came to give me, everything will be dull idol worship. To follow the form alone will be idolatry. There are so many human figures; why is he guru? Because he is a mediator, a medium of divine knowledge. That is the criterion to be tested everywhere. Put this test anywhere and everywhere. What is the interest for which we came to Krsna consciousness? And what is Krsna consciousness? There is your guru. He is guru only because he is in Krsna consciousness, and there are different degrees of Krsna consciousness. So, we must not make much about the form.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Laulyam]

TEXT 58

 

jive saksat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksa-guru haya krsna-mahanta-svarupe

 

SYNONYMS

 

jive--by the living entity; saksat--direct experience; nahi--there is not; tate--therefore; guru--the spiritual master; caittya-rupe--in the form of the Supersoul; siksa-guru--the spiritual master who instructs; haya--appears; krsna--Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mahanta--the topmost devotee; sva-rupe--in the form of.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.

 

PURPORT

 

It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

[Laulyam]

Sadhu! Sadhu!! Gaura haribol!!!!

[Laulyam]

When a person realizes himself to be an eternal servitor of Krsna, he loses interest in everything but Krsna's service. Always thinking of Krsna, devising means by which to spread the holy name of Krsna, he understands that his only business is in spreading the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world. Such a person is to be recognized as an uttama-adhikari, and his association should be immediately accepted according to the six processes (dadati pratigrhnati, etc.). Indeed, the advanced uttama-adhikari Vaisnava devotee should be accepted as a spiritual master.

[Laulyam]

<CENTER><CENTER><H1>The Glories of Sadhu-sanga</H1></CENTER><CENTER><H3>A lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam 1.18.10–13 delivered by

Sri Srimad Bhakti Sri-rupa Siddhanti Gosvami Maharaja

 

Excerpt

</CENTER></H3>

 

Our Inability to Actually Associate

 

</CENTER>Real sadhus, however, are extremely rare and therefore difficult to find; and if they are found, it is very difficult to associate with them in the real sense. Although people of this world may attain the association of a bhagavad-bhakta, they remain unable to comprehend his bhava-dhara, line of thought that is his moods. We may, by the accumulation of previous sukriti, come close physically to a bhagavad-bhakta; but we then discover that we cannot associate with him in any real sense. If those who have attained the sanga of bhagavad-bhaktas find themselves unable to benefit from it, what can be said of the predicament of those who have not even attained such sanga.

Why is this so? Why can we not properly associate with bhagavad-bhaktas despite being in their company? Sanga means “samyak rupena gamana – to completely follow the bhagavad-bhakta.” It is difficult for us to comply with their instructions. Moreover, the foundation of sanga is priti. Without priti, there can be no sanga. We go to the market and see, meet and talk with many people, but can this be called sanga? No. Priti is the real requirement.

What is priti? Srila Rupa Gosvami has written:

dadati pratigrihnati

guhyam akhyati pricchati

bhunkte bhojayate caiva

shad-vidham priti-lakshanam

 

Sri Upadesamrita (4)

Offering pure devotees items in accordance with their requirements, accepting remnant items given by pure devotees, revealing to devotees one’s confidential realizations concerning bhajana, inquiring from them about their confidential realizations, eating with great love the prasada remnants given by devotees and lovingly feeding them prasada – these are the six symptoms of loving association with pure devotees.

Are we able to deal with bhagavad-bhaktas with these six symptoms of priti? We can have these six exchanges with worldly people, but not with bhagavad-bhaktas, because maya does not let us do so. Such is the oppression of maya that she will not allow us to associate with sadhus. Hence, the sanga of bhagavad-bhaktas is very rare; we are unable to attain it even after attaining their company. This is our misfortune.

Why is this so? Man is the sangi (associate) of maya and likes associating with her. Ordinary people may come close to a bhagavad-bhakta, but they will prefer to discuss worldly topics with him and go away. They are not influenced by his association. It is very difficult for them. Therefore it is said that the result of associating with a bhagavad-bhakta for a single moment cannot be compared to the attainment of Svarga and moksha. What a significant matter! What a precious commodity is sadhu-sanga. Is such a highly worshipable and desirable thing attained in the course of everyone’s fate?

It is said in Sri Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya-lila 22.54):

‘sadhu-sanga’, ‘sadhu-sanga’ sarva-sastre kaya

lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya

The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment’s association with a sadhu, one can attain all success.

 

<CENTER>Smearing One’s Body with a Sadhu’s Foot Dust

 

</CENTER>In Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bharata Maharaja speaks as follows to King Rahugana: r

ahuganaitat tapasa na yati

na cejyaya nirvapanad grihad va

na cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryair

vina mahat-pada-rajo-’bhishekam

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.12.12)

How significant are the words spoken by Bharata Maharaja to King Rahugana. “O Rahugana, you want to know Bhagavan, but He cannot be known by austerity (tapasya), nor by worship, nor by giving up one’s home, nor indeed by living in one’s home. He cannot be known by reciting the Vedas nor by worshiping the demigods such as the Sun-god, Varuna and so on.

Why? Because vina mahat-pada-rajo-’bhishekam: as long as one does not smear himself with the foot dust of the mahat, great saintly personalities, one cannot achieve any result by performing all these other activities. So one should first seek the sanga of a great saintly personality, and only when he can smear himself with the foot dust of this personality, can Bhagavan be known to him.”

Prahlada Maharaja gave the same instruction to the sons of his guru:

naisham matis tavad urukramanghrim

sprisaty anarthapagamo yad-arthah

mahiyasam pada-rajo-’bhishekam

nishkincananam na vrinita yavat

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.5.32)

Prahlada Maharaja told the sons of his teacher that they should give up everything. “What benefit can you derive from your father Sukracarya, who you consider a great pandita?” he asked. “His consciousness is unable to touch the lotus feet of Bhagavan, who performs uncommon activities. These lotus feet have the effect of removing a person’s anarthas and awarding him complete perfection. They deliver to him his prayojana, or goal.

“So how can we attain Bhagavan? Can everyone attain him? Mahiyasham pada-rajo-’bhishekam: one must smear himself with the dust of the lotus feet of mahat, a saintly personality. Who is such a saintly personality? Niskincananam na vrinita yavat: one who possesses no wealth other than Bhagavan. As long as we do not accept and smear upon our bodies the foot dust of a niskincana mahapurusha, we will achieve nothing at all.”

The essence of the whole subject, in the language of my gurupada-padma Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, is that the jiva’s supreme auspiciousness comes about by hearing hari-katha in sadhu-sanga. This is because sadhusanga is the sole means to attain krishna-bhakti:

krishna-bhakti-janma-mula haya ‘sadhu-sanga’

 

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya-lila 22.84)

The root cause of bhakti to Sri Krishna is association with sadhus.

Hare Krishna.

Original Bengali lecture transcribed and translated into English. Audio recording courtesy of the disciples of Sri Srimad Bhakti Pramoda Puri Gosvami Maharaja.

Audio recording courtesy of the disciples of Sri Srimad Bhakti-Pramoda Puri Gosvami Maharaja RAYS OF THE HARMONIST No. 12 Gaura Purnima 2003

RAYS OF THE HARMONIST No. 13 Karttika 2003

The Complete article can be read here http://bvml.org/SBSSM/tgoss-NB.html

[Laulyam]

Devidasa: I have studied many sastras since my childhood, but today, by your grace, I have understood their purpose in an entirely new light.

Lahiri: It is written in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.8.10):

 

 

 

anubhyas ca mahadbhyas ca sastrebhyah kusalo narah

 

 

 

sarvatah saram adadyat puspebhya iva satpadah

 

An intelligent person will take the essence of all the sastras,

whether they are great or small, just as a bumblebee gathers

honey from many different types of flowers.

My dear son, I used to call you an atheist. Now I don’t criticize anyone, because faith depends on adhikara. There is no question of criticism in this regard. Everyone is working according to their own adhikara, and they will advance gradually when the time is appropriate. You are a scholar of the sastras dealing with logic and fruitive action, and since your statements are in accordance with your adhikara, there is no fault in them.

[krsna]

 

TEXT 58

 

jive saksat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe

siksa-guru haya krsna-mahanta-svarupe

 

SYNONYMS

 

jive--by the living entity; saksat--direct experience; nahi--there is not; tate--therefore; guru--the spiritual master; caittya-rupe--in the form of the Supersoul; siksa-guru--the spiritual master who instructs; haya--appears; krsna--Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mahanta--the topmost devotee; sva-rupe--in the form of.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself.

 

PURPORT

 

It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

 

Brilliant verse and purport about the nature of Guru and how he manifests in one's life.

 

It happened in the past, it is happening in the present and in will happen again in the future: it is an eternal truth - conditioned souls need to meet, hear from and serve bona-fide Gurus.

[krsna]

 

Devidasa: I have studied many sastras since my childhood, but today, by your grace, I have understood their purpose in an entirely new light.

Lahiri: It is written in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.8.10):

 

 

 

anubhyas ca mahadbhyas ca sastrebhyah kusalo narah

 

sarvatah saram adadyat puspebhya iva satpadah

 

 

 

An intelligent person will take the essence of all the sastras,

whether they are great or small, just as a bumblebee gathers

honey from many different types of flowers.

My dear son, I used to call you an atheist. Now I don’t criticize anyone, because faith depends on adhikara. There is no question of criticism in this regard. Everyone is working according to their own adhikara, and they will advance gradually when the time is appropriate. You are a scholar of the sastras dealing with logic and fruitive action, and since your statements are in accordance with your adhikara, there is no fault in them.

 

Pancha samaskara Vaishnava Pancharatriki diksha - samAshrayanam - Initiation in Iskcon

 

 

PraNavam) VaadhihamsAmbhuvAhArya - samprApthaakhila-sAsthradhiyE nama:

 

“Salutations to the AchAryan, who received Sakala-Saasthra JnAnam – the same process in disciplic succession from His AchAryan – Guru.”

The Guru just gives a talk on the basis of Vaishnava Sadachara

- the four regulative principles of freedom

- the ten offences to be avoided

- and declares his mission to serve his Guru…

 

Pancha Samskara Pancharatrik Diksha is anchored in five life altering factors:

 

One receives during the time of SamAsrayaNam the following five samskArams: (1) Taapa SamskAram: being imprinted with the divine disc and conch of Sriman NaarAyaNa on the shoulders (2) PuNDra SamskAram: Inititation into the adorning of the twelve Urdhva PuNDrams (ThirumaNN and SrI ChoorNam) on the designated sections of the upper torso with mantrams to wear them (3) Receiving dAsa nAmam from the AchAryan (your name is….Raama Daasan) (4) UpadEsams on Manthra Thrayams (AshtAksharam, Dhvyam and Charama slOkam) and (5)Yaagam / IjyA: instructions on how to perform Bhagavad AarAdhanam (seva pujan) daily. It is pancha samskAram that marks the beginning of one's life as a SrI VaishNavan. The beginning of one's true life is linked to the acceptance of Pancha SamskAram.

 

tapah pundram tatha nama, mantro yagas cha panchamah

ami hi pancha samskarah, paramaikanti hetavah

(1) Austerity, (2) wearing the marks of Vishnu on one's body, such as 'tilak', or heat seals 'taptah-mudras' to identify the body as a temple of the Lord, (3) accepting a new name at the time of initiation, (4) chanting the glorification of the Lord in the form of the Lord's Holy name, the prescribed scripture, and the Deity (5) engaging in the performance of the 'Yuga dharma' or supreme sacrifice, and undergoing training to render service to the Deity and the devotees – the mission of the Guru’s sampradaya.

All of the five are interlinked;

(1) Austerity, is considered the wealth of brahminical culture, gained through spiritual re-education and self-discipline – Simple Living and High Thinking. Austerity is also symbolised by our marking the body with the symbols of the Lord – Shank and Chakras. In different sampradayas there are variations of the applications of this. In the Sri sampradaya this austerity is done by the acceptance of branding with irons on the right (disc – Chakra) and left (conch – Shank) shoulders, in the Brahma-Madhwa line it is similarly done using “heat mudra” irons made of silver, but the placement is on different parts of the upper body and temples too. In the Gaudiya line the same symbols are marked on the body daily with tilak or gopichand (this is mentioned in Chaitanya Charitamria Madhya-lila 1:35., in relation to reformatory method of samskaras, and heat mudras as mentioned in the Hari Bhakti Vilas 4th Vilas).

(2) pundram syad urdhva pundram tal

chastre bahu vidham smrtam

hari mandiram tat pada

krityadyati subhanaham

'Pundram' here means marking the body with sacred clay from such holy places as Dwaraka, Prayag, the banks of the Ganges, Yamuna, Godavari, Pampa (Tungabhadra), Kaveri or from the soil from the sacred Tulasi plant, or from a place where the earth was dug with the tusks of a wild boar – using that earth. By marking the body with 'Vaishnava tilak' or 'urdhva pundra' or the forms of the Lord's feet and weapons, such marks, worn out of humility, recognize that one's body is the temple of Lord Vishnu, that this body is the Lords' property and not otherwise. (3) Dasya naama - from this day on the disciple is known under the new name giving him/her the humble position as servant of Krishna. The acceptance of a new name here specifically indicates severing of ones' previous ideas and materialistic misconceptions.

[krsna]

Sankha chakraady urdhva pundra

dhaaranaady aatma lakshanam

tan naama karanam chaiva

vaishnavatam ihochyate

"After initiation, the disciple's name must be changed to indicate that he is a servant of Lord Vishnu. The disciple should also immediately begin marking his body with tilaka, especially his forehead. These are spiritual marks, symptoms of a perfect Vaishnava". (Padma Purana, uttara khanda) - as quoted in the purport of ch.1 verse 208, Madhya lila, Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta

Formerly dasyanama diksha was given by placement of a mandala on a vedi on the ground, each section of that mandala corresponding to different letters (ka, kha, ga gha, etc). The Acharya then gives a name Divinely inspired according to where a flower lands that is ceremonially thrown into the mandala by the guru for the disciple (there are variations of this too). Other systems applied the names to the disciple according to the Janma nakshatra padas as mentioned in shastra like Sat Kriya Sara Dipika, again Divinely inspired. Others again Divinely inspired to do so, chose a name for the disciple according to their nature, while others take the first name of the initiate and understanding that in his/her purva-ashram the parents gave the name by the Lord’s grace, and now is the time to purify that name giving. Of course those who were brought up in the Vedik culture being given nama-karanam samskara and a suitable Krishna conscious name still change their name symbolic of their change of status in life – under father’s care, under guru’s care.

(4) Upadeshyam - Mantra diksha - the fourth samskara is that one accepts the purified mantras of the guru parampara, which one now is part of and represents. This consists of the maha mantra being formally given to the disciple along with the Gayatri mantras (according to the disciple’s development and capacity for chanting or using them).

namatra gaditam sadbhir

hari bhrit-yatva bodhakam

mantro 'stadasa-varnadih

swesta deva vapur matah

As mentioned the word 'nama' means name, the change of name is external to help the internal change of heart to take place. The two support each other, as one submits oneself to change one's heart one must change one's name indicating that he is a servant of the Lord.

All of the limbs of the panch samskara system reinforce each others’ resolve for detachment from the material world and attachment to Krishna.

(5) Yaagam / IjyA - The final samskara, Moreover this fifth limb is that by which the disciple submits themselves to training in the developmental culture of Krishna consciousness to serve the Lord according to one’s potential:

salagramadi pujan yaga sabdena kathyate

pramanany eshu drishyani duranadishu sadhubhih

By the world 'yaga', the worship of the 'Saligram Sila' and other Deity forms of the Personality of Godhead are described, glorified and sung about in great joy in the association of like minded sadhus – devotees as indicated by the fifth samskara of samashrayanam (panch samskaras).

One does this by agreeing to accept one’s new life, a second birth, and therefore symbolically prostrates oneself at the feet of Sri Guru the representative of Lord Vishnu.

Re-education into spiritual life-style reflects that of the symbol of self-surrender, upholds the first and the rest through the austerity of self-discipline. Such self discipline is sometimes referred to as the four regulative principles of freedom, for it frees us from material contamination as a doctor who is properly immunized can treat his patients.

From this day on the disciple will accept formal vows (yam niyam – does and don’ts) to refrain from activities that create or enforce the materialistic bodily concept of life, that I’m the enjoyer, proprietor, etc, of this world. (The principles and what they uphold - No illicit sexual activity – cleanliness, No meat eating – mercy; No intoxication – austerity; No gambling – time wasting and speculation) The acceptance of vows, which, by following strictly gives assistance to help immunize one from the influence of the material nature.

So in this way, taking the system from references throughout the Puranas and other Vedik literatures, our Purva-acharyas (previous acharyas) performed the 'Vaishnava agama' of spiritual initiation for their disciples based on the Pancharatriki system.

Having understood its purpose and function the disciples can now be properly initiated:

Process:

Disciples should be appropriately dressed with dhoti or sari according to gender. Men bare chested with an upper cloth – chaddar or anga vaastra.

Men may also shave heads if practical, although not absolutely mandatory.

New neck-beads and japa mala for first initiates.

A garland for each candidate, first offered at the feet of the Deity.

Guru calls each disciple close - disciples approach Sri Guru, and offer obeisances Satanga pranams audibly; for women (7 things touching ground - head, 2 hands, 2 knees, 2 feet), men offer full dandavats.

Dakshina is now given to the guru.

Guru asks if candidates will promise before the fire, the Deity and the Vaishnavas to follow the principles of Krishna consciousness; No meat eating, No illicit sexual connection, No intoxication, and No gambling. And to also chant a minimum of 16 rounds on their japa mala daily.

Dasya nama – Your name is ___(KRSNA)_____________ dasa or dasi (brahmachari, or adhikari)

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada's statements concerning spiritual master and initiation. <B>He expects his disciples to become Acaryas and that is already happening, according to his instructions.<B> All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Let's look at some of those:

 

 

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master."

 

"They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next."

 

"Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult."

 

"Just adhere yourself to the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you become spiritual master. That's all. So, I hope that all of you men, women, boys, and girls become spiritual master and follow this principle."

 

" . . . it is distinct that, although he was a conditioned soul in his previous life, there was no impediment of his becoming the spiritual master. This law is applicable not only to the spiritual master, but to every living entity."

 

"Maybe, by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program."

 

"By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krishna conscious population."

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

 

"I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

"those with the title "Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples".

 

Well, Srila Prabhupada never awarded that title to any disciple, so I guess that means that none of them were ever approved for initiating disciples.

[Guruvani]

 

"I am very much hopeful that my disciples, who are now participating today--even if I die--my movement will not stop. I am very much hopeful. Yes. All these nice boys and girls who have taken so seriously . . . You have to become spiritual masters."

So, "boys and girls" will become spiritual masters?

 

Then where are all the boy and girl gurus in ISKCON?

 

We need more girls for gurus in ISKCON.

[Guruvani]

 

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master."

Then why does ISKCON require GBC rubber stamp?

Srila Prabhupada said ALL his disciples should become gurus.

 

Where are all the girl gurus that Srila Prabhupada mentioned?

 

Srila Prabhupada approved all his disciples to be guru.

They why does the GBC claim they have to give rubber stamp approval?

[Guruvani]

 

"They are helping me in this missionary work. At the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master, next."

 

then why do the sannyasis dominate the guru scene in ISKCON?

 

Where are all the grhasta gurus, brahmacary gurus and girl gurus?

 

IS the GBC standing in the way of Srila Prabhupada's orders?

[Guruvani]

 

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

 

Yes.... ISKCON is a branch.

If these disciples go start their own institutions, then they will be a branch.

 

Srila Prabhupada has described ISKCON as a branch.

 

You can't be a branch and still be in ISKCON.

 

A branch means that you go out and make your own way.

 

ISKCON is a branch. You can't be a branch and still be in ISKCON.

[Guruvani]

 

Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 9.18

 

visa visa sakha kari' eka eka mandala

maha-maha-sakha chaila brahmanda sakala

 

SYNONYMS

visa visa -- twenty, twenty; sakha -- branches; kari' -- making a group; eka eka mandala -- form a society; maha-maha-sakha -- big branches; chaila -- covered; brahmanda -- the whole universe; sakala -- all.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Thus the branches of the Caitanya tree formed a cluster or society, with great branches covering all the universe.

 

 

PURPORT

Our International Society for Krishna Consciousness is one of the branches of the Caitanya tree.

 

 

 

I have heard some ISKCON gurus referring to certain ISKCON temples as branches of ISKCON, yet Srila Prabhupada referred to the whole society as a branch of the Caitanya tree.

 

You can't be a branch and still be in ISKCON.

 

the whole of ISKCON is a branch.

 

To become a branch you must branch out from ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

Crystal clear words from Srila Prabhupada himself. No shadow of doubt now remains. Srila Prabhupada expects his disciples to become Guru and they're obeying his order. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

"I wish that, in my absence, all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master."

" . . . just like I have got my disciples, so, in the future, these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession . . ."

Every student is expected to become acharya . . . I have given you sannyasa with the great hope, that, in my absence, you will preach the cult."