Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[theist]

Sudhaya,

 

 

Hare Krsna

 

Do you have diksa?

 

If you not want to answer for personal reasons of any kind, on an open forum {don't blame you} then please ignore this post, I will delete later on.

 

 

No I never received formal initiation. I knew I could never keep those vows. I thought everyone here knew that. Sorry if I mislead you.

 

I live in a way that is far below the vaidhi bhakti standard. I consider myself as someone who has sympathetic feelings towards this mission, its founder and it's goals. I chant some, watch some TV, read some, lust at young girls,

go to the temple to see the Deities, rarely offer my food chanting Sri Vishnu Sri Vishnu Sri Vishnu over it instead, feel greatly fortunate when I get some maha-prasad at the temple or some carnamrita water with tulasi leaf.

 

In short I am in a very mixed(up) state at present. But I have hopes for the future. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

 

[theist]

 

t: ps I never said he appeared in his heart.

 

B: No, I know you didn't. But what would be the alternative to being present before the senses (especially considering that we're not discussing siddhas but those aspiring to proper sadhana)?

 

 

Well the way I picture it Narada just gave him the eyes to see him as he stood before Dhruva in his spiritual form.

 

Not that Dhruva had to shut his eyes to see him or something. But if even that what would be the difference? Just like the Deity on the altar is non-different from Lord in the heart.

 

In other words I believe that had I been behind a tree peeking at Dhruva I would not have been able to see Narada as Dhruva did unless Narada gave me the eyes to see.

 

Make sense?

 

 

[sudhaya]

 

No I never received formal initiation. I knew I could never keep those vows.

--

 

Now thats what I call a devotee. Truthfull.

 

You are greater candidate for Bhakti, than anybody on this forum, Nitai!

 

[ancient_paztriot]

I get things wrong. You sound upset. Please calm down.

 

"As Christ said "Blessed are those with ears to hear".

 

Yes, but that hearing is almost always filtered by our own constitution.

 

"So the idea that there is no guru present I feel is bogus."

 

Well, that's a valid perspective. I take the perspective that no liberted guru means no guru is present.

 

"No guru in sight so we have to come up with a reasonable facimile to keep the line going" is the teaching of the deaf dumb and blind who think the revelation of God depends on them."

 

Couldn't agree more. Selfish people making spiritual policy is a farce to say the least. Not only do I think they shouldn't make policy, I don't even thing novices should discuss finer spiritual points. I think offenses manifest doing so. I think all of us can be authorities on modern dogma without being hypocrites. But when we take lofty spiritual positions, we project our hopes and aspirations on them. In other words, we pollute them.

 

Or I get accused of being a ritvik. Wrong again"

 

Well, so do I. I think we agree on this guru diksha and siksha subject, but words get in the way.

 

"He knows how to bring them together."

 

Hmmm. Fate has to work through people. Through their free will.

 

From the Last Samurai (New Tom Cruise movie)…

"I think a man does what he can, until his destiny is reavealed."

 

So I'm not challenging your position as you post it here. I agree.

 

 

[theist]

I'm not upset and feel very calm. But get me early before my java and ginseng kick in.

[theist]

for the kind words Sudhaya, but just admitting being fallen is not the same as not being fallen and thinking you are.

 

Humility means doing Krsna's will with love. Those guys are rare.

 

haribol

[stonehearted]

theist: Well the way I picture it Narada just gave him the eyes to see him as he stood before Dhruva in his spiritual form.

 

Not that Dhruva had to shut his eyes to see him or something. But if even that what would be the difference? Just like the Deity on the altar is non-different from Lord in the heart.

 

In other words I believe that had I been behind a tree peeking at Dhruva I would not have been able to see Narada as Dhruva did unless Narada gave me the eyes to see.

 

Make sense?

 

Babhru: I think you're trying too hard. Krishna's arrangements are very practical. Bhagavatam says, in Srila Prabhupada's translation, that "He approached Dhruva, and touching the boy's head with his all virtuous hand, he spoke as follows." Srila Prabhupada explains: ". . . as soon as He understands that a living entity is serious about entering devotional service, He sends His representative. In this way Narada was sent to Dhruva Maharaja. . . . Krishna, the Supersoul, immedately sent His representative, Narada, to initiate him."

 

There was a mystical component to Narada's hearing about Dhruva's plight, but Prabhupada says he "approached" Dhruva and touched his head with his hand. I much prefer the common -sense understanding. There's just no evidence in the text that requires, or even suggests, something else. And, as you point out, there's no reason someone such as Narada cannot be perceivable by the senses. Could you have seen him from behind a tree? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps he would have waited until Dhruva had some real privacy. Prabhupada is reputed to have suggested from time to time that Narada came to visit our sankirtan parties, but that we would not have recognized him.

 

As has been said here before, when our desire is ripe, Krishna arranges for us to meet guru. How that happens is not up to us. Krishna is, after all, Adhokshaja, beyond the ken of our mean senses and feeble minds.

[theist]

I'm trying too hard? You are making it too hard.

[stonehearted]

Crabby post deleted by stonehearted poster.

[theist]

I didn't know it was a contest. I was responding to your saying you didn't undersdtand before.

 

Hare Krsna

[ancient_paztriot]

Syamasundara dasa: There is an inherent tendency in men to want to experience something first hand rather than through someone else.

 

Srila Prabhupada: From the beginning of our lives, we are experiencing things through authority. A child receives experience by asking his parents. A child knows nothing about fire, and he wants to touch it because it is red. However, he receives knowledge from his parents that he shouldn't touch fire. In this way, he comes to understand certain basic laws of nature. The Vedas tell us that in order to know the transcendental science of Krsna, we must approach a guru. We cannot speculate about God, the spiritual world, and spiritual life.

[stonehearted]

I apologize for the tone of those posts today. When I looked at them just now, I wasn't happy to see them. I think I'll delete that last one. You don't deseve that at all. I think I'm end-of-semester crabby--just worn down. We essentially agree, I think.

[ancient_paztriot]

I hate to see ya'll fight. I know how it feels.

 

(I think there's too much agreement between us to fight).

 

Hey, I read your posts more than once too! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

Why is this Hungama?

We all are Krsna Devotee, for all of us Krsna & Prabhupada matters.

I dont think Krsna or Prabhupada do like these kind of unwanted arguements.

But one Prabhupada told that "I will live thru my books" or he never suggested any follower.

So who else will be the Guru?

Love, regards & REspects.... Santhosh Nair.

http://in.krishnites/ pls visit this dedicated to Govinda

[Kulapavana]

using examples of extraordinary cases like Brahma and Dhruva to say that one does not need a Guru present in physical form to cultivate spiritual life is prepostrous.

 

once again bunch of neophite devotees tries to "improve" the Vedic system.

 

I often wonder: are efforts like that initiated by an innocent ignorance, or is there a conscious effort by some asuras to pollute our Sankirtan Movement?

[Guest guest]

It is not easy to find a qualified guru, at least in the place I live. The guru comes to us only by God's grace.

 

In truth, we have no decision as to whether we study under a guru or not. Until the time that we are connected to that person which is meant to be our Guruji, we have to take the shelter of the Lord and learn what we can from taped discourses from trusted sources, or what have you.

 

Nothing is in our hands.

[Guest guest]

It is a common sense understanding that a person can give only what he possesses. So if you want love for Krishna, you much go to a person who possesses love for Krishna. This is important. You must know what you want, and find out the appropriate teacher. It makes no sense if you want to learn French and you approach an English teacher.

 

Another point is that you approach the heart of your lover by serving those who are already close to him. So the Guru, who in the first place is the one you approach to receive love of Krishna, is very dear to Krishna because of his bhakti. Therefore Krishna will feel more close to you. In traditional Indian families, the wife endears herself to her husband by serving his mother, father and generally the family. While this example may seem dated, when the beloved is non other than the faultless Krishna, it is nothing short of glorious to serve the devotees.

 

 

http://home.comcast.net/~mkkmkk/Thiruppavy/index.htm

 

"Every one of us is an ANDAL and like Her must long for union with the Lord. This is SuddhAntha-SiddhAntham , the doctrine of King's harem, the doctrine of Bridal mysticism. ANDAL was born as a girl and it was easy for Her to become a bride for the eternally youthful Bridegroom, Sri RanganAthan. Other AzhwArs were males and they had to adopt the sentiments, language and dress of ANDAL to become the bride, which they did successfully (as Parankusa Naayaki/Swamy NammAzhwAr and ParakAla Naayaki/Thirumangai AzhwAr) to a large extent. THAT MUST BE OUR GOAL; we must acquire right knowledge sitting at the feet of a SadAchArya; The AchAryan will transform us as a bride and offer us to the Lord , who is eager to accept us. So long as we are in this world, we must try to do KAIMKARYAM to BhagavAn and His devotees, which is like the foretaste of what we are going to enjoy ultimately in the Transcendent World "-- Professor A.SrinivAsa Raaghavan

[Kulapavana]

the desire to find Krishna or a proper guru IS in your "hands" (well... more like in your heart /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

and nobody said it will be easy and convenient

[vanamali]

I would like very much to find a guru, but I live in Kansas. Here there is a famous kriya yoga master who takes disciples, but he is the only person I know of.

 

I would like very much to find a Sri Vaishnava guru- but even I'm not picky in this respect. I would like someone who focus on the Bhakti Yoga aspect, so this kriya yoga master, though very good, perhaps is not the one.

 

I am an admirer of Pujya Prema Pangurang. Someone like her would be wonderful, but such wonderful people are few and far between. I think my Guruji will come to me when I am ready, but anyway if you have some suggestions please let me know.

[Kulapavana]

dont wait for a nice guru to move into Kansas. a sincere disciple MUST be prepared to undertake some austerities to become a bona fide disciple of a bona fide guru.

[theist]

That such a simple thing becomes so difficult. Again, the question isn't do I need a guru or not, it is what form has guru been made available to me.

 

People will accept an unbona-fide person just because he is in a physical body in the name of having a guru. But to accept the vani form of a bona fide guru is a demonic attack on "their" sankirtana movement.

 

For the 10,000 time, there is no absence of guru. The Lord in the heart will see to it you get all the knowledge about Him that you desire. Dhruva's desire was so strong that He sent Narada Muni to instruct him in the middle of the forest. Sincere desire is what is lacking not guru.

 

Why is there continual disagreement on this simple point?

[stonehearted]

theist: Dhruva's desire was so strong that He sent Narada Muni to instruct him in the middle of the forest. Sincere desire is what is lacking not guru.

 

 

Babhru: Exactly! That's just what Srila Prabhupada said in response when the Irish poet, Desmond O'Grady, suggested that the problem is to find a guru. The problem, Srila Prabhupada replied, is that we must become sincere.

[Kulapavana]

"People will accept an unbona-fide person just because he is in a physical body in the name of having a guru"

 

That would indeed be very foolish. or are you saying that there are no bona fide gurus available? because that is what this "no living guru needed" crowd is usually saying.

[krsna]

This is a great article from a real gentlemanly devotee:

******************************************

The Simple Method

by Padmapani das

 

Sometimes it appears very difficult to make advancement in Krsna consciousness, and we become impatient. If we expect immediate results and they aren't forthcoming, we can easily become discouraged. For those of us who are unable to live in a temple (or even near a temple), this is especially true. So what's the solution?

 

In November of 1969, while speaking in London's Conway Hall, Srila Prabhupada stated the following:

 

"The process is very simple. Just keep a picture of Lord Caitanya with His associates. Lord Caitanya is in the middle, accompanied by His principal associates -- Nityananda, Advaita, Gadadhara, and Srivasa. One simply has to keep this picture. One can keep it anywhere. It is not that one has to come to us to see this picture. Anyone can have this picture in his home, chant this Hare Krsna mantra, and thus worship Lord Caitanya. That is the simple method. But who will capture this simple method? Those who have good brains. Without much bother, if one simply keeps a picture of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu at home and chants Hare Krsna, then one will realize God. Anyone can adopt this simple method. There is no expenditure, there is no tax, nor is there any need to build a very big church or temple. Anyone, anywhere, can sit down on the road or beneath a tree and chant the Hare Krsna mantra and worship God. Therefore it is a great opportunity."

 

In this brief statement, Srila Prabhupada underlines the simplicity and accessibility of Krsna consciousness for everyone. Nothing fancy is required. Srila Prabhupada says here that one simply has to chant Hare Krsna, and keep a picture of Lord Caitanya and His associates (Sri Panca-Tattva) in his or her home. "That is the simple method," he declares. But who will take to it? "Those who have good brains."

If we make the effort to understand Srila Prabhupada's teachings in essence, it becomes obvious that what he is saying is always very practical and straightforward. Anyone in any condition of life can practice devotional service to the Supreme Lord by applying Prabhupada's instructions to their daily lives. We can begin by hearing the transcendental sound vibration of the Hare Krsna mantra from the lips of Krsna's pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada. Then we can chant the Hare Krsna mantra: "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare / Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare." This is the beginning of our devotional lives.

 

From here, we can gradually read and become familiar with Srila Prabhupada's books and instructions. If we can't read, then we can listen to his tapes. It is not required that we must become great scholars or renunciants to advance in Krsna consciousness. In fact, these accoutrements can be obstacles on the spiritual path if we become arrogant or "puffed up" because of them. Lord Caitanya Himself taught that the chanting of Hare Krsna should be performed "in a humble state of mind." Srila Prabhupada has confimed that sincerity is the essential ingredient in the successful execution of bhakti-yoga:

 

"Some scholars recommend that knowledge and renunciation are important factors for elevating oneself to devotional service. But actually that is not a fact. Actually, the cultivation of knowledge or renunciation, which are favorable for achieving a footing in Krsna consciousness, may be accepted in the beginning, but ultimately they may also come to be rejected, for devotional service is dependent on nothing other than the sentiment or desire for such service. It requires nothing more than sincerity." (Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 14)

If we can't enjoy the association of a temple or temple devotees, Srila Prabhupada has nonetheless requested that we stick to the process which he has revealed to us, regardless of our personal circumstances:

 

"Whether you live in temple or outside temple, the rules and regulation and the process must be followed. Then you are successful. It doesn't matter that you have to live in the temple. If he does not agree with other godbrothers, friends, he can live separately. But he must follow the rules and regulation. That is wanted." (Srila Prabhupada conversation, Honolulu, Hawaii, February 3, 1975)

Quite simply, our home can become our temple and place of worship. After all, Lord Krsna is in everyone's heart, and He sees everything. So there is no impediment to our spiritual advancement if we are sincere in our efforts and determination. We can design a simple altar at home and honor the above-mentioned picture of Sri Panca-Tattva. In addition, Srila Prabhupada has authorized us to worship his picture as nondifferent from him:

"There is no difference between me and my picture. Therefore we should honor and keep pictures in that spirit. If we throw pictures this way and that way, that is offence. The name and picture are as good as the person in spiritual world. In the material world either picture or person, everything is illusion." (Srila Prabhupada letter, September 4, 1972)

 

In this way, we can have the association of the Supreme Lord and His pure devotee wherever we are. Then we can always feel the divine presence in our lives. This is the simple method recommended by Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

(Excerpt from The Prabhupada Connection, Editorial Notes #8, by Padmapani das)

http://www.prabhupadaconnect.com/

[theist]

Kulapavana I can only refer you to my past posts.

 

Hare Krsna