Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna]

 

Dr. O.B.L. Kapoor, Adi Kesava dasa, a godbrother of Srila Prabhupada who assisted him in Vrindavana and contributed articles to the Back to Godhead magazine, once expressed concern that Prabhupada’s disciples might eventually suffer from insularity by not taking advantage of the association of other advanced devotees and the entirety of the Gaudiya scriptural cannon. Furthermore, he suggested, they might succumb to offensive thinking toward other advanced devotees, thinking only Srila Prabhupada as worthy of hearing from. Srila Prabhupada replied that he looked at his disciples as young trees around which he had built a fence to protect them in their early stages of growth. He said that as they grew to maturity they would naturally reach beyond that fence. Firmly rooted in one place in exclusive devotion to their spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, they would then also be able to take advantage of the association of others without being confused.

 

CC Concluding Words from Srila Prabhupada

 

Today, Sunday, November 10, 1974--corresponding to the 10th of Kartikka, Caitanya Era 488, the eleventh day of the dark fortnight, the Rama-ekadasi--we have now finished the English translation of Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami' s Sri Caitanya-caritamrta in accordance with the authorised order of His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Gosvami Maharaja, my beloved eternal spiritual master, guide and friend.

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association--by vani and by vapu.

 

Vani means words, and vapu means physical presence. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT, BUT VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. THEREFORE WE MUST TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE. Bhagavad-gita, for example, is the vani of Lord Krsna. Although Krsna was personally present five thousand years ago and is no longer physically present from the materialistic point of view, Bhagavad-gita continues.

[krsna]

 

As we see in the case of Dhruva, the business of initiation is arranged by Krishna, not by us. And there was no showbottle ritual in Dhruva's initiation, but some discussion, and when Narada was convinced of Dhruva's determination to see the Lord, instruction and mantra, followed by unflinching acceptance on the disciple's part.

 

Real faith or sraddha is a must for initiation to take place in the heart of the disciple.

[Guruvani]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.6.15 purport:

 

 

Deliverance from this struggle constitutes the highest benefit, but unless one gets a mantra from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, deliverance is impossible. The beginning mantra is the Gāyatrī mantra. Therefore, after purification, when one is qualified to become a brāhmaṇa (dvija), he is offered the Gāyatrī mantra. Simply by chanting the Gāyatrī mantra, one can be delivered. This mantra, however, is suitable only for the brāhmaṇas and demigods. In Kali-yuga, we are all in a very difficult position, in which we need a suitable mantra that can deliver us from the dangers of this age. Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His incarnation as Lord Caitanya, gives us the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra.

 

harer nāma harer nāma

harer nāmaiva kevalam

kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva

nāsty eva gatir anyathā

 

[Adi 17.21]

"In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way." In His Śikṣāṣṭaka, Lord Caitanya says, paraḿ vijayate śrī-kṛṣṇa-sańkīrtanam: "All glories to the chanting of śrī-kṛṣṇa-sańkīrtana!" The mahā-mantra — Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare — is directly chanted by the Lord Himself, who gives us this mantra for deliverance.

 

[Guruvani]

"All glories to the chanting of śrī-kṛṣṇa-sańkīrtana!" The mahā-mantra — Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare — is directly chanted by the Lord Himself, who gives us this mantra for deliverance.

[Guest guest]

 

<font face="monotype corsiva" size=6 color="red"><B>If you want a REAL Guru, become a REAL Disciple. KRSNA Never cheats His sincere Devotee. Deserve than desire. What is in your heart will come out; if your are a con man, you will get conned. Cheaters and cheated. An un-bona-fide guru deserves and un-bona-fide disciple. They come together to keep each other stupid.

 

Why should KRSNA give you a bona-fide Guru if you are an un-bonafide disciple, who is desiring, for example, name and fame?</font></B>

[Guest guest]

 

<font face="monotype corsiva" color="red" size=6><B>Srila Govinda Maharaj said "If you are sincere you will not be cheated".

 

If you get cheated, look into youself to see why you made the choice to follow a false guru.</font></B>

[krsna]

<TABLE cellSpacing=8 cellPadding=0 width=700 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>

 

A paper prepared by the GBC

 

(in consultation with higher authorities)

 

Mayapur, March 1978

 

 

</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>

In May 1977 His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada felt that his days in this material world were almost at an end. He traveled to Vrndavana and asked that his leading disciples come and join him. Specifically, he called for the members of the Governing Body Commission, who manage the worldwide preaching activities of Iskcon. Within a few days they gathered, in fear of the imminent departure of His Divine Grace. At that time many last affairs of His Divine Grace were put in order. He wrote his last will, entrusting everything to Iskcon, and assigned his disciples as trustees of the various Iskcon properties in India and around the world.

The GBC members met together in Vrndavana and prepared a few last questions to put before Srila Prabhupada. One very important question was how disciples would be initiated in the parampara after the departure of His Divine Grace. When asked this question, Srila Prabhupada replied that he would name some persons who could initiate disciples after his disappearance. We then asked him who the spiritual master of such disciples would be. He replied that the new initiators would be the disciples of those whom he empowered to initiate and that he, Srila Prabhupada, would be their grand spiritual master. Then he said that he would name the initiating gurus later. Srila Prabhupada seemed to recover somewhat in his health and he dispatched the GBC men back to their preaching missions around the world. He stayed on in Vrndavana, but his disappearance still seemed imminent.

Then one day in June he gave his secretary the names of eleven disciples would be the initiating disciples. Their names were:

 

1. Kirtanananda Swami

7. Harikesa Swami

 

2. Jayapataka Swami

8. Ramesvara Swami

 

3. Tamal Krsna Goswami

9. Hansadutta Swami

 

4. Satsvarupa Goswami

10. Bhagavan dasa

 

5. Hrdayananda Goswami

11. Jayatirtha dasa

 

6. Bhavananda Goswami

 

Because of his illness, Srila Prabhupada had not awarded any initiations for months. On naming these disciples, he ordered that they become "ritvic acaryas", which means that they were to initiate disciples on his behalf. He indicated, as he had said in May, that these ritvic acaryas named by him would, after his disappearance, continue as initiating spiritual masters. He named eleven but said that the number could be increased in the future.

Now it is March, 1978, the annual international gathering of Iskcon devotees at Sri Dhama Mayapur on the occasion of Gaura Purnima. After meeting and consulting with senior Vaisnavas [srila Sridhara Maharaja] and taking sastric evidence, the GBC members have prepared the following statement of principles for carrying out the orders of Srila Prabhupada.

FIRST AND SECOND INITIATIONS

Devotees ask, "If I received first initiation from Srila Prabhupada but now, after his disappearance, I receive second initiation from one of his appointed initiator gurus, what is my relationship with each of the spiritual masters?"

In coming to an answer, we must first know that harinama (first initiation) is the main initiation. The harinama is the main thing, and the second initiation is only to help the harinama. This is mentioned in Jiva Goswami's writings. Harinama diksa is bhagavati diksa, and initiation with the gayatri mantra is pancaratriki diksa. The mantra is only to help harinama, so that one can reach the siddhi of harinama. Mantra's jurisdiction (pancaratriki diksa) is up to salvation, liberation, and after libertation harinama continues. The harinama circle is the greater circle and the mantra diksa is a smaller circle within the harinama circle.

Those who have taken first initiation from Srila Prabhupada are his disciples mainly, and they will take help from the diksa guru, the guru who awards second initiation. There are a nama guru and a mantra guru. If one has received first initiation from Srila Prabhupada and then second initiation from one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples, that disciple will see his mantra guru. The new disciple must offer respect both to his mantra guru and to Srila Prabhupada. The guru is one in many forms. Therefore we say, "vande'ham sri guru sri yuta padakamalam sri gurun." Thus we address the guru as plural.

HOW TO CHOOSE A GURU

How does one know who is to be his guru? One must choose according to his sraddha, his faith. A newcomer should be given some time. He should consider to whom he will submit, based on his faith in him. There are five stages in successfully approaching a spiritual master, and the first is to hear (sravanam). The second stage is acceptance both by the preceptor and the disciple. Then sadhana, the attempt for realization, will begin. In the beginning, it is an open field: the candidate hears, and then the connection should come between guru and disciple. One should take help from senior Vaisnavas so as to avoid error.

SIKSA AND DIKSA GURUS

Sometimes devotees ask what the difference is between a siksa guru and a diksa guru. The answer is found in the Caitanya-caritamrta: "siksa-guru kevata yani krsnera svarupa." Both gurus are extensions of Krsna. Guru is Krsna. Acaryam mam vijaniyam. Krsna has come to liberate us in His different appearances, or representations. Thus there is oneness in a variety of forms. Actually, whoever sincerely helps me go forward towards Krsna is a siksa guru. Vaisnavas are also siksa gurus. There is the vartma-pradarsaka guru (the one who first shows one the path of spiritual life), the siksa guru, nama guru, mantra guru, and sannyasa guru. Whoever helps me the most in my spiritual progress is the main guru. If one is accepted by a nama guru, then as long as the nama guru is present, one has only one guru. The nama guru and mantra guru will be the same, and no other guru will be present. Only the vartma-pradarsaka guru may be present before the real guru. Thus during Srila Prabhupada's presence the ritvics he appointed were actually vartma-pradarsaka gurus. But if after the nama gurus' departure one accepts a mantra guru or sannyasa guru, one should offer full regard to him, seeing him as the representative of the previous guru.

ACCEPTING KARMA

When the guru first accepts the disciple, then the guru takes charge. There is an explanation of diksa, spiritual initiation, in the Nectar of Instruction, page 51. At the time of initiation, the guru accepts the disciple as he is and accepts charge of washing away the disciple's sins by his instructions. This can be done by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada. The main thing is that the new gurus must be transparent. The medium is so transparent that by guru parampara everything goes to Krsna in no time He who has wholly given himself to his own guru, Srila Prabhupada, is actually a guru. The fully surrendered servant of Srila Prabhupada is guru. This is the criterion. It is to be understood that the initiating spiritual master accepts karma at both harinama initiation and diksa (mantra) initiation.

SEVERAL GURUS IN ONE TEMPLE

A delicate situation may arise when in one Iskcon temple there are disciples of different gurus. The natural way to avoid this is for a guru to perform diksa in his own zone. Srila Prabhupada deliberately chose gurus in different parts of the world to arrange for this. But this is only a general principle, and there may also be special arrangements.

WORSHIP OF THE GURU

When a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's disciple performs worship, he will worship the portrait of his own guru. His guru's picture may be placed to the left of Srila Prabhupada's. If there are disciples of other gurus present in the temple, then the portraits of those gurus may also be put on the altar to the left of Srila Prabhupada. They should all be dealt with as Vaisnavas. In such a situation, the devotee performing worship - arati for example - will first worship the picture of his own guru, then the Deities, and then he may offer worship to the other gurus. He worships his own guru as guru and the other gurus as Vaisnavas. Of course, we are all experiencing awkwardness and growing pains in the new procedures. But we have to appreciate that new disciples in the future will want to worship their own spiritual masters, and this is proper. We may start in this way, and time will gradually help us.

VYASASANAS

Srila Prabhupada's vyasasana should not be occupied by any of his disciples or by the picture of any disciple. The disciple of Srila Prabhupada who is now initiating will always regard His Divine Grace as his superior and cannot occupy that seat. A second seat, however, a little below Srila Prabhupada's vyasasana, should be given to the initiating guru. Thus the new disciples will see their guru is giving honor to His Divine Grace. This will impress the disciples: "Even my guru is also giving respect to his own guru, Srila Prabhupada, and in this way I must follow." This system of maintaining Srila Prabhupada's vyasasana as the main center of guru worship should be maintained not only in the present Iskcon temples but in any temples established in the future. Whatever we are creating is from the impression received from him. In this way we will all come within the same administration.

During guru-puja, disciples of Srila Prabhupada's disciples may offer respect to their guru and then to Srila Prabhupada.

PRANAMA MANTRA

As far as a pranam mantra to be used by new disciples to offer respect to the initiating gurus, this common mantra may be used: om ajnana timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya/caksur unmilitam yena tasmai sri-gurave namah. Or nama om visnupadaya with the new guru's name inserted that is also a general mantra. Visnupadaya means "unto the representative of Visnu." It means that the guru is at the feet of Krsna by virtue of his being at the feet of Srila Prabhupada.

These pranam mantras may be used unless and until a guru's disciples compile a special mantra for him. The guru should not arrange his own Pranam mantra. But when the disciples make a mantra for guru-puja, with his special characteristics, then they may recite that mantra. The pranam mantra should be composed in perfect Sanskrit. In kirtana in Iskcon temples the nama om visnu padaya mantra with the new guru's name inserted should not be sung.

HOW WILL MORE GURU' S BE ADDED

Those who are already empowered to initiate will extend the number by their consideration. In this way it will have spiritual characteristics. The eleven picked by His Divine Grace will extend themselves. The area of initiating gurus should spread from this point, bigger, bigger, bigger.

UNDERSTANDING ABSOLUTE FAITH IN ONE'S GURU

Our process is extremely autocratic. The guru is all in all. The submission to the guru is unconditional. This we find in all Srila Prabhupada's books. There is an expression, "If anyone marries, then a separate room is necessary." As long as one is not married, he doesn't need a separate room. But as soon as one marries, he wants a separate house. Similarly, as long as a Vaisnava does not initiate, he does not want any special place or special respect. But when he initiates he is absolute in the eyes of his disciples. The sisya will not tolerate any other Vaisnava's coming 'to disturb the absolute position of his guru. This is the heart's feeling or proper Vaisnava sentiment, and disciples of Srila Prabhupada should be sensitive to this and careful not to disturb the relationship between the new gurus and their disciples. Therefore there may be at least one place where the disciple can have his guru exclusively, where he will find, "My guru is absolute here." For example, on the birthday of the guru the disciples may gather and worship him exclusively with all their devotion. They will worship him exclusively as the representative of God, of Krsna. But other disciples may not feel very much encouraged by their behavior. They may feel, "Our faith in our guru is being disturbed by this. Now my guru is not absolute." It is a very subtle point of sentiment. In Krsna's camp also Radharani and Candravali and others contended. So we must prepare for that.

 

[Note that the balancing statement of Srila Sridhara Maharaja following the above, "

this will not be possible practically

" was eliminated from this paper]

.

 

An example is given that every mother is most affectionate to her own son. The affection of each mother is absolute. But if one were to compare the affection of two mothers and try to determine who is more affectionate, one would see according to relative judgement. In this way there are both relative and absolute calculations. But the absolute realization is supreme. In our Iskcon dealings, these two conceptions have to be harmonized. Although one of the gurus may be a Godbrother to me, he is the worshipable guru of his disciple. Harmony of absolute and relative is seem in Krsna. He whom we think the supermost is being chastized by Yasoda. He is the Supreme Deity, but He is carrying Nanda's shoes on His head. In this way we can learn to adjust absolute and relative.

CONCLUSION

In conclusion we humbly request all devotees to keep uppermost one of Srila Prabhupada's last instructions to us: "Your love for me will be demonstrated by how you cooperate amongst yourselves after my disappearance. Let us deal with each other in love and trust." It is unfortunate that His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada did not stay with us another 100 years in his physical presence.

That was not Krsna's desire. Therefore we have to see how his departure is a blessing. Now more than ever we must cooperate amongst ourselves. Let us not make the tragic mistake of the disciples who break into factions over party disputes and disobey the order of the spiritual master.

The carrying on of the Krsna Consciousness Movement means we must have new disciples. Therefore Srila Prabhupada has given us new gurus. Let us heartily welcome them in our midst. In this way we will find increased union even in separation from His Divine Grace.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Guest guest]

Quoting the GBC on gurus is like asking the fox how to run the hen-house.

[krsna]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.6.15 purport:

 

Diksa guru must be specifically ordered by his predecessor spiritual master, otherwise no one can become diksa guru.

 

Quotes-<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

"Vallabha Bhatta wanted to be initiated by Gadadhara Pandita, but Gadadhara Pandita refused, saying, "The work of acting as a spiritual master is not possible for me. "I am completely dependent. My Lord is Gauracandra, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I cannot do anything independently, without His order."

(CC, Antya 7:150-151)

<O:P></O:P>

Srila Prabhupada - “Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. " (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

<O:P></O:P>

"Self-made guru cannot be guru. He must be authorized by the bona fide guru. Then he's guru. This is the fact...Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru." (SP NOD Lecture, October 31. 1972)

<O:P></O:P>

"A Guru can be Guru when he is ordered by his Guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become Guru." <O:P></O:P>(SP Bg. Lecture, 28th October 1975)

<O:P></O:P>

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Possible objection- << When did Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj ask Srila Prabhupada to act as diksa guru and gave him a document to do so? He was just asked to preach the message of Lord Caitanya in west but yet he acted as diksa guru. Srila Prabhupada have similarly asked his disciples to preach . The order to act as Diksa guru comes from within the heart as Spiritual master resides within the heart with Parmatma. Srila Prabhupada himself said that his guru maharaj didn't appoint any acarya before he departed. >><O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Note- The above is erroneous, because the diksa guru (initiating guru) must be specifically ordered / authorized - just as Srila Prabhupada was:<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

"Indian man: <O:P></O:P>

When did you become spiritual the leader of Krsna Consciousness? <O:P></O:P>

Srila Prabhupada: <O:P></O:P>

What is that? <O:P></O:P>

Brahmananda: <O:P></O:P>

He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna Consciousness? <O:P></O:P>

Srila Prabhupada: <O:P></O:P>

When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara. <O:P></O:P>

Indian man: <O:P></O:P>

Did it... <O:P></O:P>

Srila Prabhupada: <O:P></O:P>

Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. "<O:P> </O:P>

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Possible objection- But we don’t see documentation where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta specifically ordered Srila Prabhupada to become diksa guru.

<O:P></O:P>

Answer- We don’t need to see a paper, because Srila Prabhupada gave us this information. The disciple never questions the word of the founder-acarya. We don’t need to know “how” the order transpired, we only need to accept that he was ordered to be guru by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, because Srila Prabhupada told us so.

<O:P></O:P>

Notes- All quotes for this premise concludes that

no one can be diksa guru without the exclusive authorization from his predecessor guru. :pray: :pray:

This conclusion comes from enough evidence to point to that in conclusion, it is not some arbitrary opinion.

[krsna]

To be considered a candidate for the post of diksa guru, a disciple must have completed the necessary training to be a diksa guru, which means that he must have reached the necessary qualifications to be a diksa guru, per the teachings and quotes of Srila Prabhupada.<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Quotes-<O:P> </O:P>

Diksa guru must complete the training-

<O:P></O:P>

Tamala Krsna: ...but not now.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become acarya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.

 

Tamala Krsna: The process of purification must be there.

 

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower...

 

Tamala Krsna: Not rubber stamp.

 

Prabhupada: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru Maharaja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and sleeping.

<O:P></O:P>

Diksa guru must be qualified-<O:P> </O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his <O:Pinsufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => NoI: verse 5 More

<O:P></O:P>

Note- We see that a perspective candidate for diksa guru must complete the required training, and then be recognized by his guru to have reached the uttama platform, and then he is ordered to be guru, by the authority of his guru, as premise #5 will show. The first quote reveals that Srila Prabhupada says there are many gurus in the Gaudiya Matha, but they are not effective, i.e., they are unqualified and not ordered.

 

There are many more quotes on how a diksa guru must be qualified, go to master list.

[Guest guest]

In the absence of qualified diksa gurus our spiritual life must be put on hold - or maybe formal diksa is not that important?

[Guest guest]

Not necessarily on hold. You can take Siksa.

 

<B><I>But diksa from a living guru is utterly important to complete the process.</B></I>

 

 

In the absence of qualified diksa gurus our spiritual life must be put on hold - or maybe formal diksa is not that important?

[Guest guest]

 

Not necessarily on hold. You can take Siksa.

 

<B><I>But diksa from a living guru is utterly important to complete the process.</B></I>

Complete? I thought diska meant initiation - or beginning.

What an odd contigency - somebody's whole spiritual life dependant on sheer luck.

Of course I don't believe it. The only condition for going back home is to remember Krsna at the time of death.

[Guest guest]

I stand corrected ... yes, diksa is the beginning.

 

 

Complete? I thought diska meant initiation - or beginning.

What an odd contigency - somebody's whole spiritual life dependant on sheer luck.

Of course I don't believe it. The only condition for going back home is to remember Krsna at the time of death.

[krsna]

“This is risky because when a spiritual master accepts a disciple, he naturally accepts the disciple's sinful activities and their reactions. Unless he is very powerful, he cannot assimilate all the sinful reactions of his disciples and has to suffer the consequences. Therefore one is generally forbidden to accept many disciples.” > Madhya 22.118

[Guest guest]

 

“This is risky because when a spiritual master accepts a disciple, he naturally accepts the disciple's sinful activities and their reactions. Unless he is very powerful, he cannot assimilate all the sinful reactions of his disciples and has to suffer the consequences. Therefore one is generally forbidden to accept many disciples.” > Madhya 22.118

ALL HIS SINS??? Imagine all the Iskcon Gurus with hundreds of disciples that they are not even in a position to see for 5 minutes in a year!!! Do these Gurus have a chance to improve their own spiritual life overloaded with so much sin??? I don't think so!

[krsna]

 

 

Babhru: I think you're trying too hard. Krishna's arrangements are very practical. Bhagavatam says, in Srila Prabhupada's translation, that "He approached Dhruva, and touching the boy's head with his all virtuous hand, he spoke as follows."

 

Srila Prabhupada explains: ". . . as soon as He understands that a living entity is serious about entering devotional service, He sends His representative. In this way Narada was sent to Dhruva Maharaja. . . . Krishna, the Supersoul, immedately sent His representative, Narada, to initiate him."

 

There was a mystical component to Narada's hearing about Dhruva's plight, but Prabhupada says he "approached" Dhruva and touched his head with his hand.

 

I much prefer the common-sense understanding. There's just no evidence in the text that requires, or even suggests, something else. And, as you point out, there's no reason someone such as Narada cannot be perceivable by the senses. Could you have seen him from behind a tree? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps he would have waited until Dhruva had some real privacy. Prabhupada is reputed to have suggested from time to time that Narada came to visit our sankirtan parties, but that we would not have recognized him.

 

As has been said here before, when our desire is ripe, Krishna arranges for us to meet guru.How that happens is not up to us. Krishna is, after all, Adhokshaja, beyond the ken of our mean senses and feeble minds.[/quote]

 

KRSNA can make make or break you.

KRSNA is all pure transcedental always.

 

The ways and means of Him delivering you are all His and His mystical doing with the help of His internal pleasure-giving potency.

 

So please allow KRSNA to do HIS job of delivering you. All you need to do is simply pray from the innermost recesses of your heart, i.e., soul.

 

'My Dear Lord KRSNA please save me, ONLY you can deliver me. Send me your pure devotee Guru Vaisnava to give me diksa and siksa, Thank you.' :pray: :pray:

 

OK(O KRSNA)?

[stonehearted]

Hmm . . . when did I write that--and in what context? (And please tell me I didn't use all that headachy formatting.)

[Guruvani]

sometimes I have to put on my sunglasses to read some of these posts by our dearest member Krsna.

At least I wish he would use the brown color instead of that bright red.

Just see how much nicer is the brown color!

[Beggar]

If your prayer is in red and blue with a white, yes white background, then you just might be an American devotee. Or at least you'll get an American Guru.

Remember that old slogan (derived from sloka): The ZONAL AMERICAN GURUS WANT YOU! (reminds me of that old standby - American guru, stay away from me by Guess Who?) Just musing since its almost the Fourth of July.

 

[krsna]

 

sometimes I have to put on my sunglasses to read some of these posts by our dearest member Krsna.

At least I wish he would use the brown color instead of that bright red.

Just see how much nicer is the brown color!

 

KRSNA can make make or break you.

KRSNA is all pure transcedental always.

The ways and means of Him delivering you are all His mystical doing, with the help of His internal pleasure-giving potency.

So please allow KRSNA to do HIS job of delivering you. All you need to do is simply pray from the innermost recesses of your heart, i.e., soul.

'My Dear Lord KRSNA please save me, ONLY you can deliver me. Send me your pure devotee Guru Vaisnava to give me diksa and siksa, Thank you.' :pray: :pray:

OK(O KRSNA)?

 

How's that? Brown is a more neutral color?

[Guest guest]

The big letters, they are a bit much. But its better than all the z's and c's in some of the copy and pastes Ive seen. Thank god that movement has been toned down a bit.

 

Remember all that krzSn"a stuff. Drove me to the point of saying %$#&&^. Thought I was a kid at catholic church, standing up, sitting down, kneeling.

 

Colors are cool, just dont use yellow type over white. The large font bugs me, but if its good, Ill read. haribol mAz'xhaK/szha

[krsna]

 

The big letters, they are a bit much. But its better than all the z's and c's in some of the copy and pastes Ive seen. Thank god that movement has been toned down a bit.

 

Remember all that krzSn"a stuff. Drove me to the point of saying %$#&&^. Thought I was a kid at catholic church, standing up, sitting down, kneeling.

 

Colors are cool, just dont use yellow type over white. The large font bugs me, but if its good, Ill read. haribol mAz'xhaK/szha

 

Devotee: Can you explain how the principle of disciplic succession works? I Was under the impression that in your teaching there must ke an unkroken chain of disciplic succession beginning with God Himself, in order for the knowledge to be properly understood. But when I read Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I found that the disciplic succession contains only thirty-eight names, although it says that the system is fifty centuries old. Is this a complete list, or are some names left out? How are we to understand these apparent historical discrepancies?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Our guru parampara, disciplic succession, follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga janera jivana : the highest truth of Krsna consciousness comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus.

Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; the substantial thing is siksa, or spiritual instruction. And if our siksa and diksa gurus or instructing and initiating spiritual masters are congruent, then we are most fortunate. There are different gradations of spiritual masters. In the scriptures, the symptoms of the guru and the symptoms of the disciple have been described: the guru must be qualified in so many ways, and the disciple must also be qualified. Then when they come in connection, the desired result will be produced.

We are concerned with Krsna consciousness, wherever it is available. In the Bhagavad-gita and especially in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krsna says, "I start the Krsna consciousness movement, but gradually by the enervating influence of the material world, it weakens. When I find that it has diminished considerably, I return and begin a fresh movement. Again, when I find that it is becoming degraded by the adverse influence of the environment, I send one of my representatives to clear the path and give some fresh energy, invest some fresh capital in my Krsna consciousness movement."

What is Krsna consciousness? We must examine the standard of knowledge. The guru should try to impart to his disciple the capacity of reading what Krsna consciousness really is. Krsna consciousness is not a trade; it is not anyone's monopoly. The sincere souls must thank their lucky stars that they can appreciate what Krsna consciousness is, wherever it may be.

Devotee: How are we to understand that in the history of our disciplic succession, it appears that there are gaps where there was no initiating guru present to formally accept disciples?

 

Spiritual Light Years

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We are not concerned with a material connection. The mediator is not this flesh and body as we generally think. In studying the development of scientific thought, we may connect Newton to Einstein, leaving aside many unimportant scientists. We may trace the development of science fromGalileo to Newton, and then to Einstein, neglecting the middle points. If their contributions are taken into account, then the whole thing is taken into account, and lesser scientists may be omitted. When a long distance is to be surveyed, the nearest posts may be neglected. Between one planet and another, the unit of measurement is the light year; distance is calculated in light years and not from mile to mile, or meter to meter. In the disciplic succession, only the great stalwarts in our line are considered important.

Devotee: There was one question still in my mind on guru parampara which was not clarified. Between Baladeva Vidyabhusana and Jagannatha Dasa Babaji is a gap of almost a hundred years. How is it that between the two of them no one is listed in our guru parampara ?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: We have to forget material consideration when we consider the spiritual line. Here in this plane, the spiritual current is always being disturbed and interrupted by material obstructions. Whenever truth is interrupted by a material flow and becomes mixed or tampered with, Krsna appears to again reinstate the truth in its former position of purity (yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata ). That attempt is always being made by the Lord and his devotees.

The flow of spiritual truth is a living thing, not a dead thing. The vigilant eye of the Lord is always over our heads, and whenever it is necessary to keep the current pure and flowing in full force, help descends from above. Krsna says to Arjuna, "What I say to you today, I spoke to Vivasvan many, many years ago. Now, by the influence of material conception, that very truth has become contaminated, and so again I say the same thing to you today."

Religious Mutations

Here in the material world, the material consideration is always tampering with the spiritual current; the purity of the truth is always being disturbed. So, sometimes Krsna has to come himself, and sometimes he sends his personal representative to again reestablish the truth in its former and pure state.

When the truth is sufficiently covered, disturbed, and mutilated by the influence of maya, the illusory energy, then an attempt is made by the devotees of the Lord, or by the Lord himself, to rejuvenate it and return it to the previous standard of purity. We cannot expect truth to continue here in this world of misunderstanding without any tampering or interruption. It is not possible.

The intelligent will understand how to apply these principles practically. Suppose we are writing a history: we will note the main figures in the history, set aside those who are not so qualified, and begin the dynasty in order of their importance. Those who are negligible will not be mentioned. In a similar way, those who are really thirsty for spiritual truth like to see the line of pure spiritual heritage. They search out where it is to be found, connect the dynasty of stalwart teachers together, and say "This is our line."

The disciplic succession is not a bodily succession. Sometimes it is present, and sometimes it is lost and only appears again after two or three generations, just as with Prahlada Maharaja. He was a great devotee, but his son was a demon; then again his grandson was a devotee. Even in the physical line we see such interruptions. In the spiritual line we also see the channel of truth affected by the influence of maya or misconception. So, the experts will seek out the important personages in the line.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become acarya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.

 

So who is the one who is training? Srila Prabhupda could not finish the training. So it must have been Srila Sridhar Maharaja

 

Then when Srila Sridhar Maharaja was rejected by the GBC and later passed away, obviously the training was still not complete, for that is sure and it looks as if not much has been achieved in this regard since then.

Because how can someone become pure and proper by cheating?

 

So who should do and complete the training now?

 

It has to be another real life pure devotee, who takes no bull from anyone

but such pure devotees are belittled and rejected again and again by Iskcon and ritviks and even the CSM. Politics everywhere, its disgusting.

 

Even so a physically present proper trainer is there and available, they happily reject and offend, they all do what they want and talk a lot in the maintime.

 

we need to find solutions to these problems, not fighting and arguing. Together we would all be incredibly powerfull in this world, but the way it is right now, we become weaker and weaker.

[Nrsinghadev]

The very existance of this topic, along with it's ongoing debate, is a testimony to the need of a physically present spiritual master.