Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna]

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So far as personal association with Guru is concerned, I was only with Guru Maharaj 4 or 5 times, but I have never left his association, not even for a moment. Because I am following his instruction, I have never felt any separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India, who had constant personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders. This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be very puffed up by his position but all he can succeed in doing is biting the king. Personal association is not so important as association through serving.

(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/2/72)

 

 

 

So spiritually appearance and disappearance, there is no difference ... spiritually there is no such difference, appearance or disappearance. Although this is the disappearance day of Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, there is nothing to be lamented, although we feel separation.

 

(Lecture, Los Angeles 13/12/73)

 

 

 

So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased with you ... it is not that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding ... he is seeing. I never feel that I am alone.

(Lecture, 2/3/75)

 

 

 

Vani is more important than vapuh.

 

(Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

 

 

 

Yes I am glad that your centre is doing so well and all the devotees are now appreciating the presence of their spiritual master by following his instructions, although he is no longer present. This is the right spirit.

 

(Letter to Karandhara, 13/9/70)

 

 

 

The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can extinguish the fire of material existence.

 

(SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

 

 

 

There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means the physical body. Vapuh will be finished. This material body it will be finished, that is the nature. But if we keep to the vani, to the words of the spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up...if you always keep intact, in link with the words and instructions of the higher instructions, then you are always fresh. This is spiritual understanding.

(General lectures, 75/03/02)

 

 

 

So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by message(or hearing) is the real touch.

(Letter to students, August 1967)

 

 

 

Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition.

 

(SB (1987)Ed) 7.7.1.)

 

 

 

The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator is apparently absent.

 

(SB 2.9.8.)

 

 

 

The disciple and Spiritual Master are never separated because the Spiritual Master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple follows strictly the instructions of the Spiritual Master. This is called the association of Vani. Physical presence is called Vapuh. As long as the Spiritual Master is physically present, the disciple should serve the physical body of the Spiritual Master, and when the Spiritual Master is no longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of the Spiritual Master.

 

(SB 4:28:47)

 

 

 

If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the disciple.

(CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35)

 

 

 

He lives forever by his divine instructions, and the follower lives with him.

(SB(1962 Ed) Preface)

 

 

 

He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnavas die, when thou art still living in sound.

 

(Bhaktivinoda Thakur b)

 

 

 

Yes, the ecstacy of separation of Spiritual Master is even greater ecstasy than meeting with him.

 

(Letter to Jadurani, 13/1/68)

 

 

 

Krsna and his representative are the same. Similarly, the spiritual master can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of place by the principle of relay monitoring.

 

(Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)

 

 

 

It is better service to Krsna and Spiritual Master in a feeling of separation; sometimes there is a risk in the matter of direct service.

 

(Letter to Madhusudana, 31/12/67)

[som]

September 3, 1971, England [Conversation with Srila Prabhupada]:

 

Indian Lady: How does one contact the spiritual master? Through a book can you contact the spiritual master?

Srila Prabhupada: No, you have to associate.

Shyamasundara: "Can you associate through a book?" she asked.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, through books, and also personal. Because when you make a spiritual master you have got personal touch. Not that in air you make a spiritual master. You make a spiritual master concrete.

[krsna]

Devotee:

Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

Srila Prabhupada:

Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my books.

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.

(Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)

If it is possible to go to the temple, then take advantage of the temple. A temple is a place where by one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. In conjunction with this you should always read my books daily and all your questions will be answered and you will have a firm basis of Krishna Consciousness. In this way your life will be perfect.

(Letter to Hugo Salemon, 22/11/74)

Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

( Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)

In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

(Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74)

Srila Prabhupada:

Even a moments association with a pure devotee - all success!

Revitananda:

Does that apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes

Revitananda:

Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

Srila Prabhupada:

Effect. Of course it requires both things. One must be very eager to take it.

(Room Conversation, 13/12/70)

After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long. My life is almost ended. So you have to carry on, and these books will do everything.

(Room Conversation, 18/2/76)

Paramahamsa:

My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad Gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?

(Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

There is nothing new to be said. Whatever I had to say, I have already said in my books. Now you must try to understand it and continue with your endeavours. Whether I am present or not does not matter.

(Vrindavan, 17/5/77)

If I depart there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and orders. I will always remain with you in that way.

(BTG 13:1-2, December 1977

[krsna]

Excerpt from a lecture by HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So in this age, Kali-yuga especially, demoniac, everything, demons, godless. Demon means godless. Indrari. Demons means Indra, or indrasya ari. Ari means enemy. Indra is demigod. And his enemy, that is demon. Indrari. Just like when you go to preach Krishna consciousness, you have got so many enemies. They do not act directly, but they are very much envious: “What these nonsense are chanting Hare Krishna?” You see? They want to disturb. Just like we have to close this door because the demons will disturb. You see? So demons means enemy of the demigods, enemy of the devotees. Those who are God conscious, those who are abiding by the orders of God, they’re demigods. Demigods means they’re also God, but subordinate to God. They don’t say, “I am God.” No, a Vaisnava will never say so. He knows that “I am eternal servant of God.” Therefore demigod. Otherwise, their qualification is godly.

So indrari-vyakulam… Indra. Indra is demigod. He’s the king of the demigods. So indrari-vyakulam. When people become very much disturbed by this demonic government and demons… So dharmasya glanir. Dharmasya glanir means discrepancies in the matter of executing religious principles. Just like in Russia, you cannot chant Hare Krishna mantra. What to speak of chanting in the street, you cannot chant even in private. That is their law. So that law is coming gradually everywhere, godless. In China, I’ve heard, anyone teaching about God or next life, he’ll be shot. Is it not? So your country is still very nice because you are not shooting Krishna conscious people, but there is possibility. Demons are increasing. Demons are increasing. But don’t be afraid. Krishna is there. Just like Krishna’s mother and father were so much harassed by Kamsa. But at the end, Kamsa was killed by Krishna.

So we may be harassed for the time being, but Krishna will save. This is Saranagati. Avasya rakhibe krsna visvasa palana. The Saranagati means, surrender means that “Krishna will save me. I’ll not do anything against the devotional service. Even there is torture…” Just like Prahlada Maharaja. He was tortured by his father. Krishna’s mother was tortured by her brother. Not outsider. So the demons are so rascal, they don’t care for son, sister, mother. No. “As soon as it is against my personal sense gratification, I must finish this.” But be sure that Krishna will save. We have got so many instances. As Prahlada Maharaja was saved by Narasimhadeva from the hands of his father, Hiranyakasipu; Devaki was saved, Vasudeva was saved from the hands of Kamsa; so you will be also saved. Because there is promise in the Bhagavad-gita: kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [bg. 9.31]. Krishna says, “Make it a declaration throughout the whole world that anyone who is My devotee, he’ll never be annihilated. He’ll be protected. I’ll give him protection.” Samo ‘ham sarva-bhutesu. Samo ‘ham sarva-bhutesu na me dvesyo ’sti na priyah. Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita that “I am equal to everyone. Nobody is My enemy, nobody is My friend.” Ye tu bhajanti mam prityä. “But those who are devotees, engaged twenty-four hours, I give them special protection. I give them special protection.” So the demons will be there, and they will always give trouble to the demigods, or the devotees, but you don’t stop your function, devotional service. Don’t be afraid of the demons. Indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti. This mrdayanti means “giving protection”.

So this sankirtana movement, Hare Krishna movement, is also incarnation of Krishna. Nama-rupe avatara. Krishna can become incarnation in sound form also. Not even a physical form. Physical form also there; everything is there. But especially this age, Krishna is incarnated in His name. The name of Krishna is not different from Krishna. So nama-rupe krishna-avatara. So Krishna is already there. The whole world is now demonic, anti government, anti-God, anti-matter. So the incarnation has already come. Those who will take shelter of this incarnation of Krishna’s name, they will be never annihilated. Take it for granted. Yes. Krishna’s name and Krishna, no difference. That is omnipotency. Omnipotency means everything is Krishna’s energy. So the same potency in the energy and the energetic. This is omnipotency. God is omnipotent; He can give you protection when you take shelter of His name. Because His name is nondifferent from Him. Abhinnatvan nama-naminoh. Näma-krishna. Nama cintamanih krsnah, purnah suddho nitya-mukto ‘bhinnatvan nama-naminoh. Don’t think this Krishna’s name is less efficient than Krishna. No. Purna. As Krishna is perfect, similarly, this name is also perfect. Purna suddhau. As Krishna is pure, without any material contamination, apapa-viddham, no, nothing sin, sinful can affect him… You have read it in the Isopanisad. Just like sunshine. Infection cannot infect sunshine. Some disease can infect you, me, because we are less potential. But it cannot infect the sum. Rather, the sunshine will sterilize the infection. So anything infectious, anything sinful, cannot infect Krishna. Rather sinful activities in touch with Krishna will become purified. This is the process.

There are many instances. Just like Prahlada Maharaja, you can see. Prahlada Maharaja is standing, and his father is being killed before him. This is sinful. Can you tolerate? Suppose if somebody comes to kill me, and you will see and laugh? You’ll do, will you do that? Why? That is sinful. So here Prahlada Maharaja is seeing. Prahlada Maharaja is not protesting, “Why you are killing my father?” No. He’s seeing. So why Prahlada Maharaja is worshiped? Why he has become a mahajana, authority? You can say, “Oh, he’s a most sinful. He has seen in his presence, his father is being killed, and he did not protest.” You can say so. But because it is in connection with Krishna, Prahlada Maharaja is the most exalted devotee. He’s not sinful. … So Krishna is so powerful that even in the ordinary ways it looks sinful, but if it is actually done for Krishna’s sake… The same thing, Arjuna. He was thinking that “Killing of my family members, it is sinful.” He argued with Krishna. Therefore this Bhagavad-gita is there. He was simply arguing that “I’ll not fight. I’ll not kill my grandfather, my teacher, my brother, my nephews, my brother-in-laws. No, no, I am not going to… It is sinful.” But at the end he did it, because he understood, “Oh, it is for Krishna. All right. I shall take all the risk. That’s all right.” So for Krishna, the devotee takes all the risk of life, similarly, Krishna gives all the protection to the devotee. Don’t be afraid.

 

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[krsna]

"So he wanted this, and he is not... It is not that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding. Even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhanta. He is seeing. I never feel that I am alone. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means... Practically, just like a vagabond I came. But I had full faith that "My Guru Maharaja is with me." I never lost this faith, and that is fact.

 

There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means this physical body. So vani is more important than the vapuh. Vapuh will be finished. This is material body. It will be finished. That is the nature. But if we keep to the vani, to the words of spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up. It doesn't matter.

 

Just like Bhagavad-gita. It was spoken five thousand years ago. But if you keep to the words of Krsna, then it is always fresh and guiding. Not that because Arjuna personally listened to Krsna about the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, therefore he knew it. That is not the fact. If you accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then you should know that Krsna is present before you in His words in the Bhagavad-gita. This is called spiritual realization. It is not mundane historical incidences.

 

If we keep...

 

 

 

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

sa kaleneha (mahata)

yogo nastah parantapa

 

 

If you don't keep in touch with the original link, then it will be lost. And if you keep touch with the original link, then you are directly hearing Krsna. Similarly, Krsna and Krsna's representative, spiritual master, if you keep always intact, in link with the words and instruction of the superior authorities, then you are always fresh. This is spiritual understanding.

 

Na jayate na mriyate va kadacit nityah sasvato 'yam purano. Puranah means very old. Just like Krsna, the Supreme Being. He must be very old because He is the original person. But the Brahma-samhita says, advaita acyuta anadi ananta-rupam adyam purana-purusa nava-yauvanam ca. Purana-purusa, the oldest person, but you will find Him nava-yauvanam ca, always a fresh youth. That is God.

 

God is not a material, that it gets old. The body gets old.

 

So you are hearing this philosophy daily. Try to understand more and more. We have got so many books. And this is the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and, by disciplic succession, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, then my spiritual master. Then we are trying our level best. Similarly, you will also try your level best on the same principle. Then it will go on. Same principle. It doesn't matter whether one is born in India or outside India. No. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama, "As many towns and cities and villages are there," He did not say it to make a farce. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

So sometimes I am very much criticized that I am making foreigners a brahmana. The caste brahmanas in India, they are very much against me. But this is not fact. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that all over the world His message will be broadcast, does it mean that it will be simply a cinema show? No. He wanted that everyone should become perfect Vaisnava. That is His purpose.

 

It is not to make a farce, some lecturing and..., or some mutual praising society. No. It is Krishna Society. Everyone who will join this Krishna Society movement, he is more than a brahmana. Brahmana, what is brahmana? Brahmana is also material. A devotee is more than brahmana. The brahminical culture is included already. Brahma janatiti brahmanah: "Brahmana means one who knows the Absolute Truth, Brahman." He is brahmana. But that is not very fixed up. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. Brahman is impersonal effulgence, and then further progress, realization of the localized aspect, Paramatma, Antaryami, and finally, understanding the Supreme Person, Krsna, Supreme Person, that is the final understanding.

 

So people cannot understand that how the Supreme, the origin of everything, can be a person. That is their difficulty. Because they are thinking, "A person, God? How it is possible. God is great, and He is the creator of everything. How a person can do that?" Yes. That is the Vedic version.

 

 

 

 

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

 

 

He is the cause of Brahman. He is the cause of Supersoul. So ordinary man cannot understand. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam. It requires Krsna's grace to understand Him.

 

So try to receive Krsna's grace through the disciplic succession, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you will understand everything. Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau. This is the process, Vedic process. One should have unflinching faith in God and spiritual master. Don't jump over God, crossing the spiritual master. Then it will be failure. You must go through.

 

We are observing Vyasa-puja ceremony, the birth anniversary of our Guru Maharaja. Why? We cannot understand Krsna without spiritual master. That is bogus. If anyone wants to understand Krsna, jumping over the spiritual master, then immediately he becomes a bogus. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, guru- krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija. That is Vedic injunction. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. Nobody can understand Krsna without going through His most confidential servant. This is the meaning of this Vyasa-puja. You cannot surpass. If you think that you have become very learned and very advanced, now you can avoid the spiritual master and you understand Krsna, that is the bogus. That is the meaning of this Vyasa-puja ceremony.

 

We should always pray, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah. Yasya prasadad, only by the grace of spiritual master we can achieve the grace or mercy of Krsna. This is the meaning of this Vyasa- puja, offering obeisances by parampara system.

 

So you have taken a very nice line of activities, spiritual activities. Of course, as far as possible, we have tried to give you instruction, books. But remain always faithful to the spiritual master and try to understand Krsna. And if you simply understand Krsna, then your life is successful. Janma karma ca divyam me yo janati tattvatah.

 

The human life is meant for understanding Krsna. That is the perfection of life. Any other so-called understanding, that is simply waste of time because we are under the grip of the material nature. You may be very learned scholar. You may be a fool. It doesn't matter. You are under the laws of material nature. So before finishing this small span of life... We have got this human form of life. It will be finished, as the cats' and dogs' life also finished. But if we try through the guru and Vaisnava, then, we can achieve in this life the full success, not failure like cats' and dogs' life. That is the opportunity. So as far as possible, we are trying to lead you in this line, and you kindly follow. Then your life will be successful. That is the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He wanted to deliver these fallen souls, the conditioned souls rotting in this material world.

 

So Krsna Himself... Krsna comes Himself, Krsna sends His devotees, Krsna comes as devotee--just to execute this mission to reclaim the fallen souls from the clutches of illusory energy, material world.

Thank you very much.

 

(end) Srila Prabhupada[750302BA.ATL]

[krsna]

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Ive read in Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books that this transcedental sound is passed down through a lineage of masters, and the pure sound is preserved by great yogis as himself. Also these great yogis share this sound with their desciples in first initiation. Is this the way you can begin to practice this kind of yoga? Can I receive this sound by anybody or do I need to receive it by someone like Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada?

 

 

Dear E. . .,

 

Thank you for your questions and comments. Yes, initiation by a qualified guru is essential for further advancement in Krishna Consciousness. However, initiation does not make the Hare Krishna Maha-Mantra work. There are three stages of chanting which I shall explain later, offenceless chanting is the goal.

It is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta:

 

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

Translation:

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains this nicely:

 

"To chant the holy name of the Lord, one need not depend upon other paraphernalia, for one can immediately get all the desired results of linking with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It may therefore be questioned why there is a necessity for initiation or further spiritual activities in devotional service for one who engages in the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditioned life. Thus Narada, in his pancaratriki-vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment, to restrict this sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshiping the Deity in the temple are essential. Srila Rupa Gosvami has described that the holy name of the Lord can be chanted by liberated souls, but almost all the souls we have to initiate are conditioned. It is advised that one chant the holy name of the Lord without offenses and according to the regulative principles, yet due to their past bad habits they violate these rules and regulations. Thus the regulative principles for worship of the Deity are also simultaneously essential."

It is stated over and over again that one must have a qualified guru in the correct line of disiplic succession in order to become connected with Krishna. This is because, especially in the age of Kali-yuga, we are constantly bombarded with material life and can easily fall back in to maya (illusion). Our spiritual master shows us the light, lifts us out of maya and brings us Krishna.

In this material world we really have nothing else to do except serve Krishna. This is our "Rasa" (our relationship) with Krishna, simply serve Krishna. Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita:

patram puspam phalam toyam

yo me bhaktya prayacchati

tad aham bhakty-upahrtam

asnami prayatatmanah"

"If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit a water, I will accept it."

So we can offer food preparations to Krishna, never thinking of ourselves, our enjoyment, and Krishna will accept it. And in return He will give us great satisfaction. This is the most satisfying type of gratification, gratification from serving Krishna.

Diksa is first initiation, recieving the mantra from the guru. Here are some quotes from the Sri Caitanya - caritamrta about first initiation:

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sanksayam

tasmat dikseti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.,

adiksitasya vamoru krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti diksa-virahito janah

"'Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species.'"

There is always a danger that one can fall victom to maya (illuson) thinking that this material world can bring us happiness. The qualified spiritual master insures us to stay Krishna Conscious. However, we can still fall victom to maya even with proper initiation. Take for instance Chota Haridasa, who took syanyasa (renounced order of life) from Lord Caitanya (Krishna Himself). Chota Haridasa looked with lust at a woman. He was at once rejected from the society of Lord Caitanya's personal associates to make an example.

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"'It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take Vaisnava initiation from him."

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."

"The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name even once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva-it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization."

atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah

[bRS. 1.2.234]

"With the material senses one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. But when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed., As it is said in the Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 17.134):

So we can see that even though it says "adiksitasya vamoru krtam sarvam nirarthakam/pasu-yonim avapnoti diksa-virahito janahUnless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species,"

Srila Prabhupada says that "Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name even once without committing an offense, he attains all success."

Chanting with understanding and hearing the maha-matra and explianation from the proper source (Srila Prabhupada) will lead one to Krishna.

The catch here is that the Holy Names (Maha-Mantra) can deliver one from material bondage and give one the opportunity to develop the being's original relationship with Krishna, the Absolute.... but the catch is to develop the chanting "without" offense.

Three Stages of Chanting

There are three stages of chanting: The first stage is the offensive chanting of the holy name, and the second is the reflective stage of chanting the holy name. The third stage is the offenseless chanting of the holy name of the Lord.

"There are three stages in chanting the holy name of the Lord. The first stage is the offensive chanting of the holy name, and the second is the reflective stage of chanting the holy name. The third stage is the offenseless chanting of the holy name of the Lord. In the second stage only, the stage of reflection, between the offensive and offenseless stages, one automatically attains the stage of emancipation. And in the offenseless stage, one actually enters into the kingdom of God, although physically he may apparently be within the material world. To attain the offenseless stage, one must be on guard in the following manner.[guard against the ten offenses of chanting]" [purport, Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.30]

Here are some more quotes about the chanting process:

(SB.6.3.32)"Even if one chants the Hare Krsna maha-mantra offensively, one can avoid offenses by continuously chanting without deviation.

(SB 3.33.7)"It is said that those who simply chant the holy name with the tip of the tongue are glorious. One does not even have to chant the holy name and understand the whole procedure, namely the offensive stage, offenseless stage and pure stage; if the holy name is sounded on the tip of the tongue, that is also sufficient. It is said herein that nama, a singular number, one name, Krsna or Rama, is sufficient."

(SB 7.5.23)There is no way to atone for any of these offenses. It is therefore recommended that an offender at the feet of the holy name continue to chant the holy name twenty-four hours a day. Constant chanting of the holy name will make one free of offenses, and then he will gradually be elevated to the transcendental platform on which he can chant the pure holy name and thus become a lover of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

(SB 1.5:lectures 690610BS.NV)

Srila Prabhupada: "In the beginning we chant in offensive stage-the ten kinds of offenses. But that does not mean that we shall not chant. Even there are offenses, we shall go on chanting. That chanting will help me to get out of all offenses. Of course, we must take care that we may not commit offenses. Therefore this list of ten kinds of offenses are given."

(SB 6.1.34: Lectures:dec 19,1970)

Devotee (1): You said that Ajamila, because he chanted "Narayana, Narayana,, offenselessly, so he went to Vaikuntha. And then you said if we are chanting, if we chant Hare Krsna, all our sinful activities are washed away. Is that so even if we chant offensively?

Prabhupada: Offensive means when you chant with this idea that "Now I am chanting, all my sinful activities are gone. So again I can commit sinful activities, and I shall chant,'Narayana.' , That is offense. That is offense. Knowingly you are committing sinful activities. You know this is sinful activity, but you are thinking on the strength of chanting that "Even if I commit this offense, sinful activities, it will be counteracted by my chanting., That is offense. That offense was not there in the case of Ajamila. He was young man. He was being trained up by his father in the Narayana philosophy, Narayana life. But due to bad association he became a victim to all kinds of sinful activities, and that was not offense. You can fall down by, I mean to say, unaware the association. But if you are offenseless, then you'll be saved. But if you purposely think that "Because I am chanting Hare Krsna mantra, it can counteract my sinful activities,, that is the greatest offense, knowingly. Ajamila did not know. He was a boy. He fell a victim to bad association, but he was not offender. He did not do it purposefully. Therefore he was saved. Yes. (note: "Narayana" is another name for Krishna)

So to answer your question,"Is this the way you can begin to practice this kind of yoga? Can I receive this sound by anybody or do I need to receive it by someone like Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada?"

Yes, simply by chanting the Maha-Mantra (Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare) you can begin the Bhakti-yoga process. You must hear this mantra from a devotee of Krishna, someone who knows what the mantra means and who knows who Krishna is and who is being guided by Srila Prabhupada's instructions. You dont need to learn the matra from a self realized soul per say. Any sincere devotee of Krishna can show you. However, the person you hear it from should somehow be connected in the diciplic sucession and be hearing from the proper sources. Srila Prabhupada says that milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes a poisonus effect, meaning one should not learn it from someone who does not know who Krishna is. Hearing this Maha-Mantra from the most advanced Spiritual Master like AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada makes the Maha-Mantra more powerful and will accelerate your taste for Krishna Consciousness. Receiving initiation from a different line other then Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is not recommended. He is the 32nd Acharya in the disiplic succession directly from KRSNA.

Srila Prabhupada explains that just as if an apprentice does the magic as exactly told to him by the magician, then the result is the same. He says: "Just like a peon has brought a money order for you, thousand dollars. So he’s giving you. So you cannot say, 'Oh, here is a peon. He’s a poor man. How he can give me one thousand dollars?' He’s not giving; the money is sent by somebody else. He’s simply handing you."

You can hear this mantra directly from Srila Prabhupada on tape or CD and this is enough to bring you to Krishna. Siksa guru, hearing from other advanced devotees is also recomended to understand and keep in Krishna consciousness, but we must be careful to be sure that that we know about who we are hearing from and that they are sincere advanced devotees, not after fame, fortune, and admiration. Here we can use our intelligence.

There are "so called gurus" who have offended Srila Prabhupada; who lie, cheat, and decieve in order to beget deciples. They may say something to the effect of "Srila Prabhupada wispered to me that his movement was not so sucessful and instructed me to properly guide his desiples." When the truth is that Srila Prabhupada was the single most sucessful acharya in spreading the teachings of Lord Caitanya. These "so called" gurus initiate whimsically, not caring if the candidates to be initiated have any qualification at all to be initiated: and the reason? One can only conclude that they are after fame, fortune, and admiration. Srila Prabhupada's standard was the highest. He would not initiate anyone unless they were chanting 16 rounds a day and following the four regulatitve principals for at least six months. These same "so called" gurus will also say they are teaching the "higher understanding" of Krishna Consciousness (insinuating that Srila Prabhupada's teaching is somehow "lower"), when, if you compare what they are saying, Srila Prabhupada's teachings are more clear and include everything and anything that could ever possibly be said about Krishna Consciousness.

I hope this answers your questions.

Thank you,

-Gadadhara das

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[krsna]

Posted by: "visoka dasa"

 

at the vaisnava council forum

 

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:03 am (PST)

 

 

 

Hare Krishna,

Iskcon is so contaminated by the "living guru"

misconception. A Prabhu told me recently

that some new devotee said at Ratha-yatra,

"Oh, that really looks like Prabhupada!"

 

[he was refering to Prabhupada's murti on the

cart.]

 

The Prabhu said, "What do you mean?

That is Prabhupada!"

 

He also said that some new devotee said,

"Prabhupada was with us." The Prabhu

corrected him,

 

"No, Prabhupada is always

with us!"

 

 

What are we worshipping every day

at Guru-puja, if Srila Prabhupada isn't

sitting there? Dancing around like fools

worshipping plastic? He is always there,

always with us. "Living guru" is non-sense.

 

The old devotees understand it automatically.

The new devotees don't and if you correct

them, they get a blank look in their face.

They are so contaminated by "living guru"

philosophy, which was never said by Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Ys Vishoka dasa

[Guruvani]

In fact, these murtis of Srila Prabhupada are installed just like deities.

 

All the same prayers and worship for installing deities are executed when a murti of Srila Prabhupada is installed.

 

Through the installation of the murti, Srila Prabhupada is thus beseached to enter into the murti and accept worship.

 

When a murti or deity is properly installed according to the direction of smrti, then it is considered that the murti or deity has this become the living form of the deity.

 

So, ISKCON has called down Srila Prabhupada to enter his murti and accept service and worship.

Then, they conduct the movement as if Srila Prabhupada is nowhere around.

 

In other words, they are confused.

Very confused.

[Guruvani]

Even if we don't see Srila Prabhupada as animated in his murti, he still acts spiritually and is present as the leader and acharya of ISKCON.

He speaks to the heart of his disciples just like the Supersoul does because he is "as good as God" according to Mahaprabhu.

 

Our not seeing Srila Prabhupada does not mean that he cannot still be spiritually present in ISKCON and leading and guiding ISKCON as the SOLE ACHARYA.

 

What does our seeing him have to do with anything?

 

Just because we are blind does not stop Srila Prabhupada from being the leader of ISKCON.

 

We don't have to see him.

He does his service of leading ISKCON even if we are blind and stupid.

[Guest guest]

Speculative post, at best.

 

No doubt Srila Prabhupada is doing his service of leading ISKCON and is present is his books, in his own words. Therefore we don't need any 'ritviks' to establish our connection to him.

 

<B>The reason there are so many problems is because you ritvik guys put yourself in between and insist that people cling to your tails to get to Srila Prabhupada. That is wrong and unnecessary </B>

 

 

Even if we don't see Srila Prabhupada as animated in his murti, he still acts spiritually and is present as the leader and acharya of ISKCON.

He speaks to the heart of his disciples just like the Supersoul does because he is "as good as God" according to Mahaprabhu.

 

Our not seeing Srila Prabhupada does not mean that he cannot still be spiritually present in ISKCON and leading and guiding ISKCON as the SOLE ACHARYA.

 

What does our seeing him have to do with anything?

 

Just because we are blind does not stop Srila Prabhupada from being the leader of ISKCON.

 

We don't have to see him.

He does his service of leading ISKCON even if we are blind and stupid.

[Guruvani]

 

Speculative post, at best.

 

No doubt Srila Prabhupada is doing his service of leading ISKCON and is present is his books, in his own words. Therefore we don't need any 'ritviks' to establish our connection to him.

 

The reason there are so many problems is because you ritvik guys put yourself in between and insist that people cling to your tails to get to Srila Prabhupada. That is wrong and unnecessary

 

If ISKCON didn't need ritviks then Srila Prabhupada would not have bothered to appoint ritviks.

 

Srila Prabhupada established his ritvik system.

If it had not value or no importance then Srila Prabhupada would not have made an effort to establish a ritvik system.

 

You people keep forgetting who established the ritvik system.

It was Srila Prabhupada.

Not anyone else.

 

If you don't like it then that is between you and Srila Prabhupada.

 

Don't fault those who try to preserve ISKCON in an unadulterated form.

 

If you want to be a member of ISKCON as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada then you need the ritvik system.

 

If you don't need or want either of the above then the ritvik system is none of your business.

If you don't like it, then fine. That is your choice.

 

But, you should have the courtesy to leave other people alone in their faith in Srila Prabhupada and his authorized ritvik system.

 

You have no right to badmouth the ritvik system.

If you don't accept it that doesn't matter.

 

Flapping your mouth about what other people believe is quite out of your range of concern.

[Guruvani]

see, this is how you people work.

you manufacture false ideas and accuse other people of things they don't say.

nobody is saying that ritvik is the only way to Srila Prabhupada.

That is just a lie that the anti-ritviks tell to justify their bitterness and contempt.

 

please show where any ritvik ever said that ritvik is the only connection to Srila Prabhupada.

if fact, you can't.

 

because such a claim is just a lie that anti-ritviks have made up because they have an agenda that involves something other than following Srila Prabhupada.

 

when are you people going to quit making up lies about the ritviks?

You wouldn't need to if you didn't have an agenda involving personal interest and false ego.

[Guest guest]

OK then, we're in agreement that 'ritviks' are not required to acheive connecton to Srila Prabhupada. Well then, we can shake hands and be at peace now.

 

<font face="monotype corsiva" color="red" size=7><B>According to Guruvani, Ritviks not necessary to connect to Srila Prabhupada and I agree</font></B>

 

 

see, this is how you people work.

you manufacture false ideas and accuse other people of things they don't say.

nobody is saying that ritvik is the only way to Srila Prabhupada.

That is just a lie that the anti-ritviks tell to justify their bitterness and contempt.

 

please show where any ritvik ever said that ritvik is the only connection to Srila Prabhupada.

if fact, you can't.

 

because such a claim is just a lie that anti-ritviks have made up because they have an agenda that involves something other than following Srila Prabhupada.

 

when are you people going to quit making up lies about the ritviks?

You wouldn't need to if you didn't have an agenda involving personal interest and false ego.

[Guruvani]

 

OK then, we're in agreement that 'ritviks' are not required to acheive connecton to Srila Prabhupada. Well then, we can shake hands and be at peace now.

 

According to Guruvani, Ritviks not necessary to connect to Srila Prabhupada and I agree

 

duh, you finally figured that out?

 

Srila Prabhupada said that the connection with the spiritual master occurs at the first time one hears from the spiritual master.

 

so, that is one thing and formal initiation is a different issue with it's one value.

 

formal initiation is not useless.

it has a purpose, especially if one is needed to continue the parampara and do preaching work.

 

In order to be a proper preacher one needs some credentials.

That is one of the reasons there is formal diksha, apart from the imparting of the eternal mantras of one's specific form of worship.

 

Diksha mantras contain the specific form of the deity that one will worship eternally in the spiritual domain.

 

Nonetheless, the Maha-mantra contains everything as Krishna is the complete whole Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

All the diksha mantras are actually within the Maha-mantra.

Realizing that of course is another thing.

[Guest guest]

OH boy, seems like we're not in complete agreement yet.

 

Even for formal diksa, the ritviks are not necessary. That was my point. The rtviks don't hold a 'Srila Prabhupada inititiation' patent. So if someone needs initiation, he doesn't have to approach the ritvik, who is just another ordinary person with plenty of anarthas.

 

 

duh, you finally figured that out?

 

Srila Prabhupada said that the connection with the spiritual master occurs at the first time one hears from the spiritual master.

 

so, that is one thing and formal initiation is a different issue with it's one value.

 

formal initiation is not useless.

it has a purpose, especially if one is needed to continue the parampara and do preaching work.

 

In order to be a proper preacher one needs some credentials.

That is one of the reasons there is formal diksha, apart from the imparting of the eternal mantras of one's specific form of worship.

 

Diksha mantras contain the specific form of the deity that one will worship eternally in the spiritual domain.

 

Nonetheless, the Maha-mantra contains everything as Krishna is the complete whole Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

All the diksha mantras are actually within the Maha-mantra.

Realizing that of course is another thing.

[Guruvani]

 

OH boy, seems like we're not in complete agreement yet.

 

Even for formal diksa, the ritviks are not necessary. That was my point. The rtviks don't hold a 'Srila Prabhupada inititiation' patent. So if someone needs initiation, he doesn't have to approach the ritvik, who is just another ordinary person with plenty of anarthas.

 

there again, I never said that the only way to get diksha was via ritvik.

 

If you knew anything about what I have written on the internet for several years you would know that I have said that disciple of Srila Prabhupada can give diksha, Narayana Maharaja can give diksha, Govinda Maharaja can give diksha etc.

 

The ritvik system was conducted by the GBC authority.

It is GBC specific, not all encompassing.

 

Individual disciples of Srila Prabhupada can initiate disciples as well.

 

But, for the ISKCON GBC authority, Srila Prabhupada seemed to be approving of a permanent ritvik system as long as there was a viable GBC to conduct such initiations into ISKCON.

 

Ritvik was not some absolute and exclusive system of initiation.

 

It was something that Srila Prabhupada empowered the GBC and the officiating acharyas to perform on his behalf.

 

Everybody has the right to accept whatever guru they choose.

Ritvik was never meant to be crammed down the throat of every devotee in the Krishna consciousness movement, though there are some ritvik fanatics who think that it should.

 

I am not a ritvik fanatic like some of them.

 

I am a very liberal ritvik proponent.

It should be offered by ISKCON and the GBC for those that WANT IT.

 

It should not be forced on anybody.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

But, for the ISKCON GBC authority, Srila Prabhupada seemed to be approving of a permanent ritvik system as long as there was a viable GBC to conduct such initiations into ISKCON.

This is really the point of contention.

 

It should be abundantly clear that the ritvik system is an established tradition in relation to the physically-present acharya.

 

Where opinions diverge is whether Srila Prabhupada *did* indeed intend for the ritviks he appointed during his manifest pastimes to continue initiating as ritvik acharyas after the departure of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Nothing I've seen in this discussion would indicate definitively that the particular arrangement in ISKCON *was* intended to continue upon the departure of the acharya.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Nothing I've seen in this discussion would indicate definitively that the particular arrangement in ISKCON *was* intended to continue upon the departure of the acharya.

 

Srila Prabhupada never issued any prohibition that the ritvik system could not continue after his departure.

 

Wouldn't it make sense that if he wanted it to stop that he would have mentioned it?

 

After several years of GBC approved initiations in ISKCON wouldn't it make sense that Srila Prabhupada set the record straight before he left?

 

Knowing how some disciples would probably think to continue the ritvik system, wouldn't Srila Prabhupada have been prudent to issue a stop to the ritvik system upon his demise?

 

If Srila Prabhupada was wanting the ritvik system to stop upon his passing all it would have took was one sentence, one pronouncement that never came.

 

All this ritvik confusion could have been completely averted if Srila Prabhupada would have breathed one word to the effect that it had a timeline for termination.

 

Srila Prabhupada never attached a timeline to the ritvik system.

 

His final instructions to the GBC was "don't change anything after I am gone".

 

What part of "don't change anything" is it that we can't understand?

 

Great sampradaya acharyas come with great missions to do great things.

 

ISKCON lost it's greatness with the GBC guru system.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Wouldn't it make sense that if he wanted it to stop that he would have mentioned it?

 

No.

 

 

What part of "don't change anything" is it that we can't understand?

 

And what part of "you should all become guru" is it that we can't understand?

[Guruvani]

 

No.

 

 

 

And what part of "you should all become guru" is it that we can't understand?

 

Vartmapradarshaka guru?

Siksha guru?

Diksha guru?

Shastra guru?

 

He said all his disciple should become guru, but he appointed 11 of his top men to be ritviks.

They had specific orders to perform as ritvik.

 

He never mentioned any timeline when their duty as riviks would expire.

 

He didn't say "be ritvik till I die then become guru".

 

In his last days he appointed 11 men as ritvik?

Why?

He already has system of initiation in place that had been working for years.

The personal secretary was approving initiation for the last few years.

 

There was no reason to appoint ritviks unless it was for the long term.

 

Why change a system in the last few days unless it was for the future?

 

Many devotees got intiated in ISKCON by the GBC authority long before there were ritviks.

 

The ritviks were appointed in response to the GBC's asking Srila Prabhupada how to proceed after his passing.

It is documented fact.

Deny it if you choose.

 

It is a known fact.

I was in ISKCON back then and I know well how ISKCON operated.

[Guest guest]

The problem is that you have become like a horse that has lids of either side of the eyes, so all it can do is look one way. How many times do you want an Acarya to say somehing before you will accept it?

 

Srila Prabhupada, clearly time and again, said that his disciples should become Gurus and continue initiations. Yet, you come back and say why wasn't Srila Prabhupada clear about it. The fact is HE WAS CLEAR. But you bitter prunes (as Kulapavana pr would say) have become overcome by your enviousness of Vaisnavas and refuse to accept it.

 

You are like a cheap gramophone record that is worn out and repeats the same thing over and over.

 

 

Wouldn't it make sense that if he wanted it to stop that he would have mentioned it?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Does Gurudev need to specifically instruct me to wash my hands and mouth after (attempting to) honor Prasad?

 

Some things are common sense.

 

Srila Prabhupada assumed you had some common sense or else you would not have sought his instruction.

 

 

Vartmapradarshaka guru?

Siksha guru?

Diksha guru?

Shastra guru?

 

He said all his disciple should become guru, but he appointed 11 of his top men to be ritviks.

They had specific orders to perform as ritvik.

 

He never mentioned any timeline when their duty as riviks would expire.

 

He didn't say "be ritvik till I die then become guru".

 

In his last days he appointed 11 men as ritvik?

Why?

He already has system of initiation in place that had been working for years.

The personal secretary was approving initiation for the last few years.

 

There was no reason to appoint ritviks unless it was for the long term.

 

Why change a system in the last few days unless it was for the future?

 

Many devotees got intiated in ISKCON by the GBC authority long before there were ritviks.

 

The ritviks were appointed in response to the GBC's asking Srila Prabhupada how to proceed after his passing.

It is documented fact.

Deny it if you choose.

 

It is a known fact.

I was in ISKCON back then and I know well how ISKCON operated.

[Guruvani]

 

Does Gurudev need to specifically instruct me to wash my hands and mouth after (attempting to) honor Prasad?

 

Some things are common sense.

 

Srila Prabhupada assumed you had some common sense or else you would not have sought his instruction.

So "don't change anything after I am gone" means that the entire system of initiation in ISKCON could change as if it is a minor detail?

 

If Srila Prabhupada wanted to put a timeline on the ritvik system then he would have done so quite definitively.

 

"Don't change anything after I am gone" especially referred to the ritvik system.

 

"Don't change anything"

"Don't change anything"

"Don't change anything"

 

that means DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTHING

ZIP

NADA

 

not even the ritvik system

especially the ritvik system.

 

"Don't change anything"

[Guest guest]

The whole question of whether the original 11 were authorized to become gurus in their own right as opposed to ritviks is moot. Almost all have fallen down. A clear indication that they were not qualified and that Prabhupada did not so order them (implicitly through so-called common sense).

I don't see what's so common sense about a ritvik turning into a full-flegded acarya. It does seem common sense (if there still is such a thing) that they would be authorized to initiated on Prabhupada behalf while Prabhupada was still embodied.

Initiating on the behalf of an acarya after samadhi sounds too much like a Catholic priesthood.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

"Don't change anything" would also include Srila Prabhupada's principle of adjusting the presentation and even the rituals to suit "time, place and circumstances" would it not?

 

 

So "don't change anything after I am gone" means that the entire system of initiation in ISKCON could change as if it is a minor detail?

 

If Srila Prabhupada wanted to put a timeline on the ritvik system then he would have done so quite definitively.

 

"Don't change anything after I am gone" especially referred to the ritvik system.

 

"Don't change anything"

"Don't change anything"

"Don't change anything"

 

that means DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOTHING

ZIP

NADA

 

not even the ritvik system

especially the ritvik system.

 

"Don't change anything"