Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna]

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,255,255)">"Thus in the beginning the students of our Krsna consciousness movement agree to live with devotees, and gradually, having given up four prohibited activities--illicit sex, gambling, meat-eating and intoxication--they become advanced in the activities of spiritual life. When one is found to be regularly following these principles, he is given the first initiation (hari-nama), and he regularly chants at least sixteen rounds a day. Then, after six months or a year, he is initiated for the second time and given the sacred thread with the regular sacrifice and ritual."

(C.c., Adi 17:265)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,255,255)">"Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months."

(C.c.,Madhya 15:108)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,255,255)">"In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."

(C.c., Madhya 24:330)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[krsna]

Srimad Bhagavatam purport, 4.16.1:

• 
  "As stated by Narottama dasa Thakura, sadhu-sastra-guru: one has to test all spiritual matters according to the instructions of saintly persons, scriptures and the spiritual master. The spiritual master is one who follows the instructions of his predecessors, namely the sadhus, or saintly persons. A bona fide spiritual master does not mention anything not mentioned in the authorized scriptures. Ordinary people have to follow the instructions of sadhu, sastra and guru. Those statements made in the sastras and those made by the bona fide sadhu or guru cannot differ from one another.":pray: :pray:
  

 

[cbrahma]

 

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,255,255)">"Thus in the beginning the students of our Krsna consciousness movement agree to live with devotees, and gradually, having given up four prohibited activities--illicit sex, gambling, meat-eating and intoxication--they become advanced in the activities of spiritual life. When one is found to be regularly following these principles, he is given the first initiation (hari-nama), and he regularly chants at least sixteen rounds a day. Then, after six months or a year, he is initiated for the second time and given the sacred thread with the regular sacrifice and ritual."

(C.c., Adi 17:265)

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,255,255)">"Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months."

(C.c.,Madhya 15:108)

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; TEXT-ALIGN: left" cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(204,255,255)">"In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."

(C.c., Madhya 24:330)

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I think it's just peachy that they want qualified disciples. Now all they have to work on are the so-called gurus.

[sevabhakta]

The simple fact is that Srila Prabhupada deputed certain disciples to act on his behalf regarding the monitoring of aspirants and seeing that they meet the stipulations of a sincere and eager aspiring disciple.

 

He delegated many portions of what most people mistakenly believe ONLY the individual person called the Spiritual Master can execute in this relation.

 

This is a bad case of selective memory, and an offense to the concept that an Acharya has broad latitude as to how he "gets to know" aspirants and dispenses their individual sadhana.

 

His orders were crystal clear, he worked with who stepped up to the plate, if they fumbled the ball, it is not that his instructions were not potent, it was that they were not followed.

 

So the spiritual master never left the building. His deputies were and are physically present. As for their behavior, well that is up to free will. And let us not forget the detailed instructions laced throughout his books.

[krsna]

 

The simple fact is that Srila Prabhupada deputed certain disciples to act on his behalf regarding the monitoring of aspirants and seeing that they meet the stipulations of a sincere and eager aspiring disciple.

 

He delegated many portions of what most people mistakenly believe ONLY the individual person called the Spiritual Master can execute in this relation.

 

This is a bad case of selective memory, and an offense to the concept that an Acharya has broad latitude as to how he "gets to know" aspirants and dispenses their individual sadhana.

 

His orders were crystal clear, he worked with who stepped up to the plate, if they fumbled the ball, it is not that his instructions were not potent, it was that they were not followed.

 

So the spiritual master never left the building. His deputies were and are physically present. As for their behavior, well that is up to free will. And let us not forget the detailed instructions laced throughout his books.

 

Rtvikism is Vulgar Apa-Siddhanta

 

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

 

Oct 4, USA (SUN) — In his recent posting, which questions our earlier posting "A Successful Guru Policy", Gadadhara dasa starts by saying we have three choices as regards guru. This is incorrect. We only have one choice if we actually want to practice spiritual life correctly. That one choice is to surrender to guru, sadhu and sastra with sincerity and chaste adherence.

 

Then, he misrepresents our statements by saying we have advocated what he calls the "the self-declared guru". Whence he has got this odd phrase "the self-declared guru", is not clear but it certainly isn't anything we have even mentioned. We have simply stated that if someone is interested in diksa, then he should examine carefully and intimately that prospective guru, as per the sastric guidelines. Thus we have only repeated sastric edicts.

 

Next, he attempts to decry any supervisory role for the GBC within ISKCON, and then, a couple of sentences later, contradicts himself by saying that the GBC didn't step in quickly enough with Balabadra S.

 

In the letter, to Karandhara, 1972, Srila Prabhupada certainly gives a supervisory role to the GBC:

• 
  "Each centre remains independent, that's all right, but the president and other officers must themselves follow and see the others are following the regulative principles carefully, and giving them good instruction so they may understand nicely why this tapasya is necessary. And GBC and Sannyasis will travel and see the officers are doing this, and if they observe anything lowering of the standard, they must reform and advise."
  

 

 

So Srila Prabhupada directed the GBC to supervise the spiritual standards. Now if someone misbehaves and says the like of "Lord Siva is Supreme and now we can smoke ganja!", then obviously the GBC must step in and carefully set the matter right. But Gadadhara dasa in his statements displays antipathy towards Srila Prabhupada's directions that the GBC have a supervisory role.

 

Next we see that Gadadhara dasa mood is to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as regards the GBC. And a very negative and destructive mood issues from his statements; he seems to be blaming everyone but himself for his initiation problems.

 

Then finally, Gadadhara dasa reveals himself and shows why he's in such a philosophical mess: He's a ten-thousand year posthumous diksa-guru advocate. No wonder he's relying on bad logic and emotionalism to push his many times defeated concoction.

 

He asks: "Why not follow the Rtvik system?"

 

Well, the answer to that is quite simple: No, because Rtvikism is ridiculous. If Gadadhara dasa wants to convince anybody he should do so by providing instances from sadhu and sastra that support the odd Rtvik interpretation of the July 9th letter. But the Rtviks never do. Because they know, but can never admit, that there is nothing in sadhu and sastra to support such a foolish interpretation. Absolutely nothing.

 

What Gadadhara dasa doesn't realize is that he is confused and emotional because he is maintaining a great offense: He is misrepresenting the teaching of a great acarya by saying that that acarya created 10,000 year Rtvikism - clearly something unheard of in our Sampradaya. By offensively misrepresenting that sublime Acarya's restatement of eternal sastric principles, his intelligence is confounded and thus prone to increasing duplicity and mental speculation. One result is the illogical and disingenuous argumentation we find in his posting.

 

This proclivity for word-jugglery and mud-slinging is all the Rtviks have to offer because they can never offer any positive proof from sadhu and sastra to support their vulgar apa-siddhanta. No matter how many times they are challenged to come up with such positive proofs, they always return empty.

 

We hope this is found helpful,

Your servant,

Balavidya dasa

[sevabhakta]

One of the GBC's roles was to travel from temple to temple and "see that everything was going nicely."

 

As long as the temple standards were being maintained by the temple president, they were to only open their mouth to chant the holy names.

 

If the president needed advice, he was to ask.

 

If they saw standards were lax, they were to speak up.

 

So in actuality, each time a GBC attends one of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon temples where some unauthorized person is claiming acharyaship as diksa guru, they should restore the standard.

 

They have "ultimate MANAGERIAL authority."

 

The temple presidents were deputed to observe prospective candidates for initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. If they were qualified they were to send the recommendation to the deputed Ritvik representative of THE ACHARYA FOR ISKCON, SRILA PRABHUPADA.

 

Whoever doesn't like that system should get qualified and create their own.

[krsna]

Unless one is situated as pure Vaisnava in his dealing, in his behavior,

inside and outside,

he should not become a preacher because it will not be effective,

neither one should hear from such person.

But people in general,

they cannot understand,

but those who are preaching,

they must be very sincere,

the same way.

Rupa-raghunatha pade, haibe akuti.

They should read the literatures,

the instruction, just like Upadesamrta, The Nectar of Instruction.

We should follow, strictly follow.

Then prthivim sa sisyat.

Then you'll be able to preach and make disciples all over the world.

This is the injunction.

That is called gosvami.

Don't be cheap preacher, cheap guru.

No, no. That is not good.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.28 --

-- Mayapur, March 6, 1976

[sevabhakta]

One of the GBC's roles was to travel from temple to temple and "see that everything was going nicely."

 

As long as the temple standards were being maintained by the temple president, they were to only open their mouth to chant the holy names.

 

If the president needed advice, he was to ask.

 

If they saw standards were lax, they were to speak up.

 

So in actuality, each time a GBC attends one of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon temples where some unauthorized person is claiming acharyaship as diksa guru, they should restore the standard.

 

They have "ultimate MANAGERIAL authority."

 

The temple presidents were deputed to observe prospective candidates for initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. If they were qualified they were to send the recommendation to the deputed Ritvik representative of THE ACHARYA FOR ISKCON, SRILA PRABHUPADA.

 

Whoever doesn't like that system should get qualified and create their own.

 

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[sevabhakta]

Here is a very nice purport which should teach a lesson to those who believe that "Ritvikism is Vulgar" or "you need a physically present Spiritual Master".

 

It is about what a Master of Spirituality may do through his REPRESENTATIVE.

 

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 24.330:

 

• 
  "Similarly, a disciple's qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."
  
  
  
  Take Heed of the carefully chosen grammar you Anti Ritviks.
  
  
  "OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE"
  
  
  These words immortalized in the Bhaktivedanta Purport to a verse in the Caitanya Caritamrta.
  
  
  The Acharya or Spiritual Master can fulfill the scriptural injunction to "live with and observe" a prospective disciple for a year by using a REPRESENTATIVE.
  
  
  Of course this representative was often a temple president or other senior disciple.
  
  
  But if he would deputize and use a representative for something as intimate and important as guaging a porential disciples sincerety and eagerness to be a chaste brahminical disciple, how absurd for the anti-ritvik camp to assume that it is "vulgar" or api-siddhanta for an Acharya, who never even met some of his disciples, to choose some to represent him as Ritvik priests.
  
  
  These Ritvik priests were in large part simply accepting the recommendation of temple presidents or senior disciples who already engaged in the sacred intimate work of living with and monitoring aspirants for a year.
  
  
  What a joke.
  
  
  I don't see these anti-ritvik zealots decrying the position of temple president, which would be more realistic.
  
  
  These hypocrits don't have a leg to stand on.
  
  
  

 

[Guruvani]

I am not anti-rivik.

I personally believe that Srila Prabhupada was agreeable that the GBC could perform ritvik initiations even after his departure.

 

I also believe that Srila Prabhupada was also agreeable that his senior sannyasi disciples could also perform as diksha gurus if and when the situation was ripe.

 

I think many ISKCON men jumped the gun, dumped the ritvik system and made a mess out of ISKCON in the process.

 

I think that Srila Prabhupada would have agreed to both situations according to time, circumstance and qualifications.

 

Unfortunately, many men got in too deep before they were qualified and that makes all the more strong the case for the ritvik system.

[sevabhakta]

 

I am not anti-rivik.

I personally believe that Srila Prabhupada was agreeable that the GBC could perform ritvik initiations even after his departure.

 

I also believe that Srila Prabhupada was also agreeable that his senior sannyasi disciples could also perform as diksha gurus if and when the situation was ripe.

 

I think many ISKCON men jumped the gun, dumped the ritvik system and made a mess out of ISKCON in the process.

 

I think that Srila Prabhupada would have agreed to both situations according to time, circumstance and qualifications.

 

Unfortunately, many men got in too deep before they were qualified and that makes all the more strong the case for the ritvik system.

 

I was not there at the time, but my survey of sane and staunch disciples of Srila Prabhupada produced the conclusion that he put a moratorium on Iskcon members taking formal sanyassa after expressing repeated public disappointment in the mentality of his sanyassis who used the ashram as leverage to gain prestige and followers and the fact that "just about" each and every one fell. They have produced quotes to that effect as well, so I would respectfully disagree that SP wanted his senior sannyasi disciples to also perform as diksha gurus , especially since he stated in his books that only a Mahabhagavat should become Guru.

 

 

Madhya 24.330

 

"When one has attained the topmost position of mahä-bhägavata, he is to be accepted as a guru and worshiped exactly like Hari, the Personality of Godhead. Only such a person is eligible to occupy the post of a guru."

 

I still don't see why it is not acceptable that Ritvik initiation cannot be considered just as good as traditional Diksa.

 

I don't understand why people don't accept that if a person in Iskcon were actually to become qualified as Maha-Bhagavata that their giving Ritvik initiation on behalf of Iskcon's Acharya is just as good as them being Diksa guru themself, but following the order of their acharya, they officially give the disciple to Srila Prabhupada. In the same way that eternal associates from Goloka descend and think they are actually most fallen and claim to be so due to Yoga Maya's arrangement for all those who need the example.

 

After personally assessing the situation, I will go to my grave with this conclusion that this is the way Yoga Maya and Srila Prabhupada cooperately "sealed the door where evil dwells", and this will be the litmus test for who is a sincere and chaste member of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon for the duration of the Golden age within Kali Yuga in this particular universe.

 

His Iskcon institution was set up so expertly by Sri Nityananda Prabhu that anyone following the rules and regs with faith would automatically progress to spontaneous loving service (raganuga bhakti), and from there the sky is the limit in one's devotional career. What more does one need??

 

I also fully accept the possibility that Maha Bhagavatas will appear and initiate and begin their own institutions on this planet.

 

Hare Krsna

[CCC]

No

[Kulapavana]

 

Here is a very nice purport which should teach a lesson to those who believe that "Ritvikism is Vulgar" or "you need a physically present Spiritual Master".

 

It is about what a Master of Spirituality may do through his REPRESENTATIVE.

 

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 24.330:

 

• "Similarly, a disciple's qualifications must be observed by the spiritual master before he is accepted as a disciple. In our Krsna consciousness movement, the requirement is that one must be prepared to give up the four pillars of sinful life-illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. In Western countries especially, we first observe whether a potential disciple is prepared to follow the regulative principles. Then he is given the name of a Vaisnava servant and initiated to chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, at least sixteen rounds daily. In this way the disciple renders devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master or his representative for at least six months to a year. He is then recommended for a second initiation, during which a sacred thread is offered and the disciple is accepted as a bona fide brahmana."

 

Explain to me how a new disciple may actually observe and test the qualifications of a departed guru? This is what Srila Prabhupada insists on - that a disciple must personally verify the qualification of his guru. Relying on the legends spun by disciples eager to promote their gurus is just plain stupid, and it is a very real risk and fact of life SP was familiar with (plenty of such examples among various "yogis" in India and in the West).

[sevabhakta]

 

Explain to me how a new disciple may actually observe and test the qualifications of a departed guru? This is what Srila Prabhupada insists on - that a disciple must personally verify the qualification of his guru. Relying on the legends spun by disciples eager to promote their gurus is just plain stupid, and it is a very real risk and fact of life SP was familiar with (plenty of such examples among various "yogis" in India and in the West).

 

Quite simply.

 

If someone was attracted to chanting the holy name as a result of my Sankirtana activities, and approached me to gain more knowledge about how they could get more involved, I would tell them

 

That a pure saint is my master, and that I am doing my best to accept his discipline and represent his wishes.

 

That in order to understand that discipline most fully, they should read Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita.

 

That they could continue to chant congregationally with me and my associates, and witness our other activities.

 

Over time, they would read and understand the criteria that Srila Prabhupada, and the past Acarya's, offer to the aspiring disciple.

 

Over time associating with me, they would see that I am not an advanced devotee on the level of Srila Prabhupada.

 

They would see me doing my best to represent him.

 

They would infer that they have the same opportunity to represent him, and simultaneously they would have some faith in my adhikari, knowing that I did not MIS-represent myself, nor Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thus through watching me and my associates WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY READING SRILA PRABHUPADA'S GITA AND THEN BHAGAVATAM, THEY CAN UNDERSTAND FULLY WELL WHO THE MAHABHAGAVAT ACARYA IS BY OBSERVING HIS QUALIFICATIONS, WHICH IN RELATION TO HIS POSITION AS JAGAD GURU WERE NEVER ANYTHING BUT HIS PURPORTS AND INSTRUCTIONS.

 

In addition, by behaving this way, they can come to their own conclusion about my mastery of discipleship and treat me accordingly.

 

Ah hah!!!

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

Thus through watching me and my associates WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY READING SRILA PRABHUPADA'S GITA AND THEN BHAGAVATAM, THEY CAN UNDERSTAND FULLY WELL WHO THE MAHABHAGAVAT ACARYA IS BY OBSERVING HIS QUALIFICATIONS, WHICH IN RELATION TO HIS POSITION AS JAGAD GURU WERE NEVER ANYTHING BUT HIS PURPORTS AND INSTRUCTIONS.

 

 

The standard conveyed in the above verse from CC refers to a personal verification. What you propose is similar to what Kriya Babaji disciples today teach about acceptance of their guru, who according to them is about 2000 years old and lives in Himalayas, but who left us all these very wonderful writings proving his qualifications. Or if you want examples from other traditions, why not become a disciple of Jesus?

 

NO SALE for me. You folks cant even convincingly explain the teachings of your own guru...

[sevabhakta]

 

NO SALE for me. You folks cant even convincingly explain the teachings of your own guru...

 

I have nothing to sell. I simply offer the truth.

 

Thus I simply repeating my Guru's method, and whether you are convinced or not is up to your free will to accept or reject the truth, based on your free will desire to continue to Lord over materiality or not.

 

I am disappointed that you reject the simple method. Disappointed because I can see you choose to suffer your own limits for a longer period.

 

But I have faith in Sri Guru and Gauranga that your choice to extend your suffering is perfectly in line with their plan to win you over some other time.

 

Hare Krsna

[krsna]

Srila Prabhupada October 27, 1968

"If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. My Guru Maharaja used to say: "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him.":deal:

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada October 27, 1968

"If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. My Guru Maharaja used to say: "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him.":deal:

 

I just raised my rates to $50,000.00 per lecture.

Anyone interested can send me a PM via this website.

[sevabhakta]

 

Srila Prabhupada October 27, 1968

 

"If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. My Guru Maharaja used to say: "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him.":deal:

 

I am preaching from my temple here my friend. When I look around me I see nothing but my temple room, and my computer screen.

 

The forum admin is gracious enough to offer this service so all us aspiring brahmanas can cut our teeth amongst each other from our little ashrams.

 

If anything, I should be donating to them.

 

Of course as Guruvani said, if anyone enjoys my schtick that much, send Gold, and I will travel.

 

Hare Krsna

[suchandra]

 

From Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada:

 

"For the genuine devotee of a spiritual master, the genuine disciple, the spiritual master is his entire life, his ideal. His vow is to serve the spiritual master, and though he adores both Krishna and the spiritual master equally, he gives special preference to his spiritual master. A genuine disciple is not weak, but is empowered by the power of the guru's mercy. The spiritual master's blessings and the spiritual master's service are his hope and his strength.

 

A genuine disciple does not disobey the order of the spiritual master even at the risk of his life. Whatever responsibilities the spiritual master mercifully gives him, he does with all his heart. Thus he receives the guru's full blessings."

This all makes very clear sense, however, when we examine the situation when Vaishnavas set up a society within a hierarchical structure, a setup in which one group of Vaishnavas is fully dependent upon the qualification of the next higher authority another aspect seems to become more important but where is this mentioned? It is mentioned nowhere.

An example, let's say you're in the position of recruiting the medical personnel for a hospital, what is the situation when you're recruiting people which are not fit for these positions and create damage, who bears for this damage, how it is guarded, how it is solved in the most efficient way? Any medical department has such security measure, because botch and bongling in a hospital is totally damaging. Somehow within Vaishnava societies the opposite is true - no such tool is installed and whenever a head of a department fails, the whole society, even Vaishnavism in itself is affected, battered and its reputation tarnished badly. Any recruiter of an airline company would only shake his head about so much blind trust to appoint people into such highly responsible office without any sastrical safety net whatsoever. And even when so much havoc occurs, nothing is changed. Looks like sastra assumes that Vaishnavas don't live within societies and for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja's innovation to start a Vaishnava society run by a GBC management nothing is mentioned in sastra. Fact is, the dimension of the damage when a GBC man, TP, guru, sannyasi, falls down, can't be compensated by any sastrical explanation. Any construction company would be immediately disbared and closed when having this situation with so many false estimations concerning qualification of leadership like for example within ISKCON.

 

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It's a lamentable situation, to be sure.

 

Spiritual aspirants are not alone in this dilemma, though.

 

As a friend recently pointed out, studies have shown that as many as a third of scientists have engaged in some sort of academic misconduct. While many institutions of "higher learning" have mechanisms in place to report abuse, in academia most of the oversight consists of self-policing.

 

 

This all makes very clear sense, however, when we examine the situation when Vaishnavas set up a society within a hierarchical structure, a setup in which one group of Vaishnavas is fully dependent upon the qualification of the next higher authority another aspect seems to become more important but where is this mentioned? It is mentioned nowhere.

An example, let's say you're in the position of recruiting the medical personnel for a hospital, what is the situation when you're recruiting people which are not fit for these positions and create damage, who bears for this damage, how it is guarded, how it is solved in the most efficient way? Any medical department has such security measure, because botch and bongling in a hospital is totally damaging. Somehow within Vaishnava societies the opposite is true - no such tool is installed and whenever a head of a department fails, the whole society, even Vaishnavism in itself is affected, battered and its reputation tarnished badly. Any recruiter of an airline company would only shake his head about so much blind trust to appoint people into such highly responsible office without any sastrical safety net whatsoever. And even when so much havoc occurs, nothing is changed. Looks like sastra assumes that Vaishnavas don't live within societies and for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja's innovation to start a Vaishnava society run by a GBC management nothing is mentioned in sastra. Fact is, the dimension of the damage when a GBC man, TP, guru, sannyasi, falls down, can't be compensated by any sastrical explanation. Any construction company would be immediately disbared and closed when having this situation with so many false estimations concerning qualification of leadership like for example within ISKCON.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

An example, let's say you're in the position of recruiting the medical personnel for a hospital, what is the situation when you're recruiting people which are not fit for these positions and create damage, who bears for this damage, how it is guarded, how it is solved in the most efficient way? Any medical department has such security measure, because botch and bongling in a hospital is totally damaging. Somehow within Vaishnava societies the opposite is true - no such tool is installed and whenever a head of a department fails, the whole society, even Vaishnavism in itself is affected, battered and its reputation tarnished badly. Any recruiter of an airline company would only shake his head about so much blind trust to appoint people into such highly responsible office without any sastrical safety net whatsoever. And even when so much havoc occurs, nothing is changed. Looks like sastra assumes that Vaishnavas don't live within societies and for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja's innovation to start a Vaishnava society run by a GBC management nothing is mentioned in sastra. Fact is, the dimension of the damage when a GBC man, TP, guru, sannyasi, falls down, can't be compensated by any sastrical explanation. Any construction company would be immediately disbared and closed when having this situation with so many false estimations concerning qualification of leadership like for example within ISKCON.

 

Very profound observation. The way our society was set up is certainly prone to abuse by people placed in position of responsibility. That is why serious reforms are needed. We could learn a lot from other similar organizations. I dont see a problem with the shastric side of our movement - we have a problem with the common sense side.

[sevabhakta]

 

Very profound observation. The way our society was set up is certainly prone to abuse by people placed in position of responsibility. That is why serious reforms are needed. We could learn a lot from other similar organizations. I dont see a problem with the shastric side of our movement - we have a problem with the common sense side.

 

Lets break this down.

 

1. "The way our society was set up"

 

(By Srila Prabhupada)

 

2. "is certainly prone to abuse by people placed in position of responsibility."

 

(as in any and every temporal human societal system on earth, the problem is not with the system and the positions within the system but with the people, not the position. If a position is not filled by a qualified person, do not throw out the position, a master craftsman built that fine tuned machine, throw out the unqualified person and replace him with a capable one)

 

3. "That is why serious reforms are needed"

 

(Why am I afriad that you mean to reform the system and not reform or replace the unqualified people who would manage it. Why I am I afraid you just want to make CHANGES to an acarya's newly founded society, a one that you claim to be a member of when you said "The way OUR society was set up", an acarya who said "make no changes" multiple times regarding the management system on tape and in writing.

 

4. "We could learn alot from other movements".

 

(Of course you mean branches of the Sankirtana movement who are having such success as Srila Prabhupada did right???)

 

5. " I don't see a problem with the sastric side of our movement - we have a problem with the common sense side. "

 

(As for common sense we already know that which ever side is not the "sastric side of the movement, is already split off from the movement if split from shastra, and I agree that is unwise, if wisdom were the common sense you were referring to.)

 

And speaking of common sense.

 

For you to sometimes appear to be aloof from Iskcon, a free agent, a dispassionate cooperater with "all" the camps, and then other times speak as if you are on the board of directors of Iskcon giving advice on where to source the crafting of reforms that the system of the acarya is so in need of,

 

isn't fooling anyone with common sense. Can you feel it? I think you do. The Dragon. The sleek sensuous form of such leviathan power, a planet-wide movement of people united into one bland homogenous undefinable mass of scientifically created sterile lifestyles, all flowing and writhing and adjusting according to the dictates of one's own mind?

 

Only kidding. Just give the acarya's authorized structure a chance with some qualified people. If it then fails, then the qualified people are qualified to get together and Reform or form again, and I am sure it would be great but I doubt it will get that far, because qualified people in the Acarya's societal skeletal blueprint will far surpass any of our expectations.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

Lets break this down.

 

If you want specifics, lets have it...

 

1. The initial setup.

 

There were so many different "setups", they kept changing all the time and there were always "special cases" where existing setup was modified or completely disregarded. The DOM system was NEVER fully implemented, and SP himself made numerous decisions which did not follow that program. That set the precedent for "just about anything goes" in the name of expediency.

 

2. The concept "Setup is good, only people are bad" is just a fairy tale. The system which does not take into consideration the limitations of the people is at best utopian. I have worked all my adult life as a manager and have seen my share of good and bad setups. The one used in Iskcon is quite poor and the record proves it. The greatest problems lie in the lack of accountability of individuals for their mistakes, and in the absence of check and balance mechanisms. It is merely a variation of the old feudal system.

 

3. You want "better people" - great idea! But WHO will pick them? GBC? Give me a break, they are a total failure on almost every level. Regular devotees will vote them in? THAT is NOT part of the system. Never was. That is why I say the system itself needs to be changed.

 

4. We could learn from other institutions which actually WORK PROPERLY. In our organization something like 95% of the new converts LEAVE the fold! How many devotees can say they are happy with the way our movement is organized and managed? Very, very few... Most other religious groups dont have such a tough time managing their organizations.

 

5. Common sense IS indeed required. Here is one example for you:

 

"I have a perfect system...

Does it work?

No.

Then fix it!!"

 

The only way Iskcon will reform itself is if rank and file devotees will actually DEMAND the change from their leaders. Or when the current leading dinosaurs die out...

[sevabhakta]

The founder and head brahmana of a society has the right and duty to tweak his system as needed in order to get it to the point he is most satisfied with.

 

No-one else has that right/privelege unless specifically granted by the boss.

 

Let us put aside for a moment the futile Monday morning quarterbacking by a lifelong karmi manager.

 

The fact is you would better spend your analytical skills on determining the exact structure of instructions which the society ended with, and to which the exhortation "change nothing" was applied by the architect.

 

Through analysis you would then see that some of his instructions were never implemented. You already got this with DOM, but there are deeper issues.

 

It is not that HE did not order them implemented, but the recipients of those orders refused.

 

So, if he decided to keep them on board, and ignore his new strategy of execution for a time, perhaps he was waiting for them to come around.

 

Perhaps he scrapped the idea altogether. But if so, he had some system in place at all times, and THIS is the system that must be used.

 

Or leave Iskcon alone. And all that entails. Or face great reaction to your aparadha. I mean if you are so smart, go make your own movement, as Theist says, FROM SCRATCH.

 

That's it, good luck, your choice as always, but if you think, like so many of the current hijackers of Iskcon do, that you also are somehow sanctioned with some unlimited timeframe to mess around and tinker with Iskcon, THAT ITSELF DEFIES COMMON SENSE.

 

Hare Krsna