Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Kulapavana]

 

...if you think, like so many of the current hijackers of Iskcon do, that you also are somehow sanctioned with some unlimited timeframe to mess around and tinker with Iskcon, THAT ITSELF DEFIES COMMON SENSE.

 

If I want to see changes in Iskcon that is only because I want it to succeed, not because I want a cushy position in it. I could not care less about it, lets make it clear.

 

Iskcon is quite a failure now and that is why the change is needed, I think we both agree on that. You may think the change applies only to the people - but I disagree. Prabhupada chose the people, and the system still failed. You think you can make better choices? I doubt it. The system is inherently prone to abuse and thus must be modified.

 

The most logical change would be along the lines of DOM, where temple presidents are elected by the local devotees, and then temple presidents elect GBC's. None of that GBC for life business, where new GBC's are elected by the existing cliques within existing GBC. Or GBCs meddling with local temple affairs, appointing their croonies to all relevant positions - that is a recipe for abuse.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

In my eye, looking at life in terms of "success" and "failure" is not so useful. Our vision is too limited to truly guage success and failure. Besides, the criteria for success and failure are necessarily arbitrary.

 

One man can cook the books to make the US invasion of Iraq look like a success, while, by another person's metrics, it's an utter failure.

 

So, rather, I prefer to look at things in terms of "choices" and "consequences".

 

Srila Prabhupada made many choices for various reasons. Those choices had consequences.

 

By my measurement, ISKCON has been a tremendous success in that it has been very effective in spreading awareness of Sri Krishna.

 

Now, if you want to look at institutions, the one for which I work is a good example. Here at the County, we have a fairly stable organization. The system can certainly be abused, but continuity is pretty-much assured.

 

One *consequence* of the structure of the County is that things often take a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyy loooooooooooonnnnngggg time to get done.

 

How much time did Srila Prabhupada realistically expect he had (especially after his experiences on the Jaladutta)?

 

 

Iskcon is quite a failure now and that is why the change is needed, I think we both agree on that. You may think the change applies only to the people - but I disagree. Prabhupada chose the people, and the system still failed. You think you can make better choices? I doubt it. The system is inherently prone to abuse and thus must be modified.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

To elaborate a bit further.

 

One may argue that, as an *institution*, ISKCON is a failure.

 

However, ISKCON exists as a tool for distribution of mercy. It's purpose is not to serve itself.

 

 

In my eye, looking at life in terms of "success" and "failure" is not so useful. Our vision is too limited to truly guage success and failure. Besides, the criteria for success and failure are necessarily arbitrary.

 

One man can cook the books to make the US invasion of Iraq look like a success, while, by another person's metrics, it's an utter failure.

 

So, rather, I prefer to look at things in terms of "choices" and "consequences".

 

Srila Prabhupada made many choices for various reasons. Those choices had consequences.

 

By my measurement, ISKCON has been a tremendous success in that it has been very effective in spreading awareness of Sri Krishna.

 

Now, if you want to look at institutions, the one for which I work is a good example. Here at the County, we have a fairly stable organization. The system can certainly be abused, but continuity is pretty-much assured.

 

One *consequence* of the structure of the County is that things often take a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyy loooooooooooonnnnngggg time to get done.

 

How much time did Srila Prabhupada realistically expect he had (especially after his experiences on the Jaladutta)?

[Kulapavana]

 

... I prefer to look at things in terms of "choices" and "consequences".

 

Srila Prabhupada made many choices for various reasons. Those choices had consequences.

 

By my measurement, ISKCON has been a tremendous success in that it has been very effective in spreading awareness of Sri Krishna.

 

And so you see no need to change anything? Something like 95% of new converts leave the church - no change needed? Close to half of our gurus discredited within our own society (some walked away with a lot of society's money) - no change needed? Empty temples in many areas of the world - no change needed? Bankrupcy declared to pay for child abuse settlement - no change needed?

 

30 years after disappearance of our Founder Acharya - care to compare the numbers in just about ANY category? Still, no change needed? Fantastic! just plain fantastic! We are such a well run institution!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Those are the numbers on which you choose to focus.

 

I'd rather stick to my own experiences. The fact that, at my son's soccer game last Saturday, when I mentioned to one of the player's Grandfather that I was an aspiring "Hare Krishna", his face lit up and he told me fondly that one of his best friends had become a devotee (he was sure that he must be "number two" in the organization by now ), and that, prior to that, he had enjoyed chanting Hare Krishna with his friend while tripping on acid, I call Srila Prabhupada's movement a resounding success.

 

I saw a headline yesterday that most schools are "drop out factories". Does that mean we should just give up and scrap the school system?

 

Did I ever say that no change is needed? Well, I *will* say that now. No change is needed.

 

As Gurudeva likes to say, the best way to correct somebody is to say, "That way is good; *this* way is *better*."

 

Until we can accept and love ISKCON for what it is, what hope do we have for improving it?

 

 

And so you see no need to change anything? Something like 95% of new converts leave the church - no change needed? Close to half of our gurus discredited within our own society (some walked away with a lot of society's money) - no change needed? Empty temples in many areas of the world - no change needed? Bankrupcy declared to pay for child abuse settlement - no change needed?

 

30 years after disappearance of our Founder Acharya - care to compare the numbers in just about ANY category? Still, no change needed? Fantastic! just plain fantastic! We are such a well run institution!

[sevabhakta]

 

If I want to see changes in Iskcon that is only because I want it to succeed, not because I want a cushy position in it. I could not care less about it, lets make it clear.

 

Iskcon is quite a failure now and that is why the change is needed, I think we both agree on that. You may think the change applies only to the people - but I disagree. Prabhupada chose the people, and the system still failed. You think you can make better choices? I doubt it. The system is inherently prone to abuse and thus must be modified.

 

The most logical change would be along the lines of DOM, where temple presidents are elected by the local devotees, and then temple presidents elect GBC's. None of that GBC for life business, where new GBC's are elected by the existing cliques within existing GBC. Or GBCs meddling with local temple affairs, appointing their croonies to all relevant positions - that is a recipe for abuse.

 

That group of people who would be considered "members in good standing" by the current leaders in Iskcon are each responsible for its current course as well as the leaders.

 

2 ways you can look at it.

 

If you are considered officially outside Iskcon for some reason, then separate from you, they are carrying on their business of their own free will, and if they are failing miserably at acheiving the goal to which all the founder's instructions appertain, what possible help could you give. You one man who is officially OR unofficially NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

 

On the other hand, if you are considered a member of Iskcon, and have influence in the politics there then you have a more directly vested interest in doing your utmost to make things better.

 

I see you continuously identify, subconsciously, your self with Iskcon. Among the one's I have pointed out previously here is the latest statement for example.

 

"Close to half of our gurus discredited within our own society (some walked away with a lot of society's money) - no change needed?"

 

But the alpha and the omega of your relationship to the society of Srila Prabhupada and his disciples is....

 

How you actually percieve the founder acarya.

 

When you say things like "Prabhupada chose the people, and the system still failed", I can see that you still have not fully understood the nature of the relationship between Srila Prabhupada, and his Guru, and Krsna.

 

Prabhupada served Krsna's will. Krsna sent the people and Srila Prabhupada engaged them. Krsna dictated the direction of the system that his Founder Acarya constructed. Whether or not the men would continue to make spiritual advancement and continually requalify themselves for the positions which they were miraculously functioning in, that is the FREE WILL factor, and to Blame that on Srila Prabhupada's "choice" is just laughable.

 

So you go ahead and imagine that your intellect can invent some "modifications" as you say, to the system the acarya put in place.

 

You call him founder acarya in the same breath you decry his incompetence with the system he put in place and the poor men he chose to do it with.

All the while forgetting who the "chooser" really is.

 

I guess some people will buy that as an excuse to let you exercise your intellectual senses, tinkering with what is left of Iskcon like a mad scientist.

 

Just keep the Kirtana pumping and I'm sure you'll have a blast, just remember the probability is that none of those people had "success" at what you want to help them succeed at, after all this time, because they really wanted what they got now. Don't get your hopes up.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kulapavana]

 

So you go ahead and imagine that your intellect can invent some "modifications" as you say, to the system the acarya put in place.

 

 

and precisely which system are you talking about as: "Krsna dictated the direction of the system that his Founder Acarya constructed"? Is DOM that system? Or the system which was actually in place in 1977? Or something else? For example: should the GBCs be elected periodically as in the DOM system, or nominated for life as SP ordered in 1977? Ritviks, regular gurus, or zonal acharyas? Or just like this thread suggests: Is a physically present guru required? There is no agreement among the devotees what that "perfect system" really is, yet we cannot change it to make it work better? This kind of pothead "logic" can only be seen among brainwashed cult members.

[sevabhakta]

You said..."There is no agreement among the devotees what that "perfect system" really is,"

 

This is an absolute stance. And I say you are mistaken.

 

Just because this might be true in your experience among the devotees that you have canvassed, doesn't mean it is the truth among ALL devotees.

 

I consider this an assumption and extremist at that.

 

So as to your statment.

 

"This kind of pothead "logic" can only be seen among brainwashed cult members."

Better to speak for yourself, lest you find yourself blinded by presumption and miss your own cultish fanatical tendencies while projecting them on others.

 

What you don't know, can hurt you.

 

For example, we know that anything which today passes as official Iskcon policy simply could not be representative of the founder acarya's wishes if we consider him to be a wise, warm, kindhearted pure acarya directed 100% by supersoul.

 

As a matter of FACT, some "Iskcon centers" reflected deviation from his stated policies by 1970, but between then and 1977 he was physically present to identify the problem, and either;

 

reiterate the policy he originally ordered,

or CHANGE it to a new policy.

 

So we have a trail of executive policy making. The latest policy that the executive instituted is the one that a capable person may follow.

 

Krsna dictates the policies through the acarya AND Krsna sends to the acarya a pool of POTENTIALLY capable people. Their free-will dictates whether they will follow the sadhana and fulfill their potential.

 

There are some who kept track of the policies and lived them more closely then others. They were at this temple or that temple. A brahminical type here, a ksyatria type there. Scattered and dispersed to the four winds once the zonal offenders kicked into gear.

 

But they remember. They payed close attention to the orders of the Guru, and kept track of the adjustments he made, as if their spiritual life depended on it. And it does.

 

SB 3.24.5

 

Purport

Here it is clearly said (samyak sraddhaya) that with great faith one should receive knowledge from the spiritual master and with great faith execute the performance of service. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in his commentary on Bhagavad-gita, has especially stressed the instruction of the spiritual master. One should accept the instruction of the spiritual master as one’s life and soul. Whether one is liberated or not liberated, one should execute the instruction of the spiritual master with great faith.

 

Some have found one another and through association, kirtana and kattah, and remembering the spiritual master's ways and orders, come together in the spirit of a phoenix rising from the ashes, and quite naturally and organically, a real Prabhupada Iskcon center is arranging itself around those activities.

 

I suppose as they discover others doing the same in distant locales, a GBC may one day unfold in the same way.

 

Hare Krsna

[suchandra]

 

There is no agreement among the devotees what that "perfect system" really is, yet we cannot change it to make it work better?

Sounds like Krishna's devotees don't agree if the Supreme Lord should be pleased or not? Since most living entities in this material world are confused about this, allowances have to be made for them.

 

[Kulapavana]

oh yes.... there is NO disagreements among the devotees as to what this "perfect system" is... suuuure...

 

funny, I have not noticed a reply to my question as to WHAT precisely that "perfect system we all agree on" is... just a mysterious note that:

 

"There are some who kept track of the policies and lived them more closely then others. They were at this temple or that temple. A brahminical type here, a ksyatria type there. Scattered and dispersed to the four winds once the zonal offenders kicked into gear. But they remember. They payed close attention to the orders of the Guru, and kept track of the adjustments he made, as if their spiritual life depended on it."

 

and another mysterious note that: "Sounds like Krishna's devotees don't agree if the Supreme Lord should be pleased or not?" - which of course is extremely helpful in our discussion.

 

Thanks for the valuable input. I will go home and process it now...

[sevabhakta]

Kulapavana said.

 

 

"There is no agreement among the devotees what that "perfect system" really is, yet we cannot change it to make it work better?"

My reply:

 

If there is a system, there are functional aspects which may be identified and named using categorical analysis.

 

The Founder-Acarya devised the system with each cumulative instruction he gave to his leaders regarding policy and procedure.

 

If his men struggled to act under a policy guideline, he had two choices.

 

1. Keep the policy and wait for their free will to choose to obey.

2. Change the policy to a lower standard, and see what happens.

 

In either case, it is the disciples responsibility, in a secretarial manner, to mark the policies as they emerge. And to note the changes as well.

 

Each and every policy Srila Prabhupada initiated happened as an individual event, and was recorded and remembered by someone.

 

At the end of a certain period of time, he told his disciples he had given them everything they needed to make advancement to Krsna Prema, and is documented forbidding any changes.

 

So, a logical person would agree that Srila Prabhupada's stated policies, in their original form or most recent form of ammendment by his own self, are what comprise the system.

 

Whether his system will be considered "perfect" enough to follow will be a subjective decision based upon one's faith in the descent of grace from an acarya, or based upon one's application of a materially critical eye upon the shoddy execution of the men Krsna sent to his acarya.

 

I highly advise the former.

 

So one may do the research and find those who know and carry the legacy of Srila Prabhupada's desire for management of his Iskcon Sankirtana movement, and then become an authority on what the exact parts of that system entail.

 

Without doing that much, any claims to authority or even capability to "modify" (change) the system is laughable, and I will be the first to laugh, because that person cannot even properly identify the system they claim to want to change.

 

It simply boils down to another case of someone who lacks the stuff to start their own movement and thus concocts illogical excuses to use some or all of Iskcon's physical or intellectual property/notoriety/manpower as a foundation to apply their well intentioned but mundanely specualtive ideas of how to manage, all under the illusory aegis of change, when the reality is they don't even know what they are changing.

 

Back to the drawing board Guru Kula.

 

Hare Krsna

[vpnathan]

Hello everyone. Just joined today. I've been about 35 years in the spiritual line and thought I could contribute something to this thread. Before I proceed however, could I ask if this forum is exclusively for Hare Krishna devotees? I ask this because I notice almost everyone signing out with ' Hare Krishna.' I did not check carefull when I joined, and thought this forum was for people who follow the Hindu way of life. I'll write again after I receive a reply for this query.

Regards

[theist]

 

Hello everyone. Just joined today. I've been about 35 years in the spiritual line and thought I could contribute something to this thread. Before I proceed however, could I ask if this forum is exclusively for Hare Krishna devotees? I ask this because I notice almost everyone signing out with ' Hare Krishna.' I did not check carefull when I joined, and thought this forum was for people who follow the Hindu way of life. I'll write again after I receive a reply for this query.

Regards

 

Hare Krsna and welcome vpnathan,

 

This forum does contain a predominance of Hare krsna's fallen Hare Krsna's and wannabe Hare Krsna's like myself. It is not exclusive though we just seem to have congregated here.

 

If you are more comfortable discussing some aspect of Hinduism then I suggest you click on the Audarya Fellowship link at the top of the page, scroll down and you will find a wide variety of other forums which are more Hindu centered.

 

Take a little time, look around and settle in where you feel most comfortable.

[vpnathan]

Thanks Theist. I was afraid that I had accidentally stumbled into a Hare Krishna forum. I'll check out the other boards in this forum as per your advice, and then come back to this thread and give my two cents worth regarding this subject.

Cheers

[theist]

Happy touring.

[Tantrayoga]

 

Hello everyone. Just joined today. I've been about 35 years in the spiritual line and thought I could contribute something to this thread. Before I proceed however, could I ask if this forum is exclusively for Hare Krishna devotees? I ask this because I notice almost everyone signing out with ' Hare Krishna.' I did not check carefull when I joined, and thought this forum was for people who follow the Hindu way of life. I'll write again after I receive a reply for this query.

Regards

 

Well, pretty much, as you have rightly noticed. There is no official rule saying so though.

[krsna]

 

Srila Prabhupada October 27, 1968

 

"If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. My Guru Maharaja used to say: "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him."

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by krsna Srila Prabhupada October 27, 1968

"If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge.

 

WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS?

Is it a bogus quote?

Tell the truth, where did you find this?

 

awaiting confirmation,

Bhaktajan

 

Allow me to paraphrase: "If you give away sastra without a donation, they will think it is cheap and therefore, they will not read."

 

please correct me.

[krsna]

The best years of my life

 

 

<!-- end .post-top --><!-- the main section of the post goes here -->By Svarupa dasa

The following is an interesting story I heard I would like to share with all the devotees -

“I first saw the devotees in 1967 on TV; I was in year eight at school and was immediately attracted. In 1970, while coming down from an acid trip, someone handed me a BTG. In 1971 I watched Srila Prabhupada arriving at Sydney also on TV and the next day was on my way to Sydney. Feeling unqualified, I went bush to mediate and chant Hare Krishna, I learnt the chant from the Radha Krishna Album and the Beatles.

Arriving in Sydney I went to the Paddington Temple and to me it was like the top of a huge mountain. Eventually I went in and Upananda prabhu spoke to me and asked me to read Krsna Book while he and Caru cooked. It would take another year before I moved into the Temple after becoming materially exhausted and praying for guidance and ending up on the steeps of the Melbourne on Lord Caitanya’s appearance day 1972; I was initiated by Srila Prabhupada on July 10th 1972, then received 2nd initiation in early 73.

The best years were those early years of Book distribution, Street Sankirtan and prasadam. You know, we never even drank a soft drink in those days, if it was not prepared by devotees and offered to the Dieties, then we would not eat.

Recently when I was very ill, the only remembrance I had was from 1972 to 74, they where the best years, the years that left the most blissful impressions. Always meeting Srila Prabhupada at the Airport, The first Rathayatra that I helped organise with Upananda prabhu, the first travelling Temple, the beginning of book distribution, the most amazing, blissful, ecstatic atmosphere Srila Prabhupada’s chanting created at 14 Burnett St in St Kilda that has never been repeated to this day. Going to the Airport to pick up yjr first full version of Bhagavad gita as it is on Australian soil!

The dancing with Prabhupada at the 73 and 74 Rathayatra, the book distribution with the great Buddimanta prabhu (an amazing devotee to watch how he distributed books) Tripurari, who was/is so attached to always chanting japa and also a brilliant humble book distributor. Hari Sauri, Balarama, Gopinathacharya, Yasomatinandana, Gopi kanta, Chittahari, Sanak, Dvaipayana, the best halava maker in the movement!, Gauramandalabhumi, Antaratma, Samjata, Kurma the great cook of Basmati rice, Sahadeva, Shivinath, (who made the best ’simply wonderfuls’) Jayadharma who managed Spiritual Sky, Dhoumya (who made the first four meter (12 feet) tall Deity of Lord Caitanya in Australia for the 1972 Rathayatra festival and who chanted with me for what was the first time for devotees in Adelaide in 1972). Ganesa (who once sold all of Prabhupada’s books to an out back aboriginal who was on his way to the market with the aboriginal communities monthly allowance, Ganesa got it all! Although Madhuvisa eventually gave the money back and told them to keep the transcendantal Books), Kuntibhoja, who was on that first travelling Temple.

Also there was Bhakta Phil (now Subhapati who went on to establish the Murwillumbah Hare Krishna community New Govardhana), a young Bhakta called John, who I showed how to play the mrdanga drum in Hobart Tasmania, (now Ramai Swami and GBC member). Prabhupada even wrote a letter thanking us for taking his books and the chanting of Hare Krishna to the very ends of the planet (Tasmania also known as Van Demons land!). Also, who could ever forget the Kirtans from (the then) Emperor of Kirtan Madhuvisa Swami and the first ever Travelling Temple in 1972.

And many, many more ISKCON pastimes, like the fantastic women book distributors like Subhalaksmi devi-dasi and Gopala devi-dasi. I once drove a van load of them from Melbourne to Sydney chanting Hare Krishna all the way, every service station and Town we stopped in they were not satisfied until they distributed some of Prabhupada’s books. The memories, too many to write here, flowed through me that I was in tears, even though alone without any associating of present day devotees, I still had Prabhupada. I listed to Prabhupada chanting, that’s all I had, the 1966 Hare Krishna mantra. It was, as if he was saying to me, ‘just love me and I will protect you from all this’

ALSO A FOOT NOTE ON THE 1976 STORY

Many years later in 1990 the head Catholic fundamentalist Christian that threatened Srila Prabhupada’s life and Melbourne devotees, had become very ill and was dying, he had already had the bottom part of one leg amputated. One afternoon, the then Temple President Balarama Prabhu got an unusual phone call; it was from this man Erickson. He told Balarama what he did was wrong and felt ashamed and sorry for his actions. Balarama forgave the man and told him there is no difference between his God and Lord Krishna. The man replies ‘I think I understand that now’ The mercy of the devotees are boundless!!”

[krsna]

 

WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS?

Is it a bogus quote?

Tell the truth, where did you find this?

 

awaiting confirmation,

Bhaktajan

 

Allow me to paraphrase: "If you give away sastra without a donation, they will think it is cheap and therefore, they will not read."

 

please correct me.

 

Srila Prabhupada October 27, 1968

"If anybody calls for meeting and lecturing, we must charge. And if they want to hear free, they may come to our temple. Don't become cheap. My Guru Maharaja used to say: "If somebody becomes cheap, then nobody hears him.":deal:

[krsna]

At the moment of initiation:pray:

a good disciple

feels very indebted

upon receiving the greatest treasure –

the Holy name.

 

To express his gratitude,

the rest of the life

he uses his body, mind and words

to assist his master’s mission:pray:

and brings him glory!

[krsna]

The most high and beautiful lord and master,

the spiritual master who delivers KRSNA...

 

showers mercy on the deserving disciple

by dint of service rendered in love, affection and surrender.

 

Questions on atma-tattva,

"What is the Absolute Truth, dear gurudeva?"

"How can I attain the highest goal of human life, KRSNA prema?":pray:

[krsna]

Disciple: After hearing you speak, I feel like such a bad person.

 

Guru: Don't be bad.Be good.

[krsna]

guru is in the heart as localized guide and overseer

 

guru belongs to KRSNA absolutely

 

guru shows you how to surrender to KRSNA with love

 

guru loves KRSNA and shows you how you can also...

[Sarva gattah]

On the 29th Jan 2008, just a week before her passing LILA (Vrindavan devi dasi 17 years old) IN Vrndavan writes - (in regards to Srila Prabhupada's attachment to Krishna and telling his disiples to see beyond the material body just before his disappearance in 1977)

 

 

 

LILA - "It makes me think 'yes Prabhupad is still here and I know it, I always have".