Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Beggar]

 

On the 29th Jan 2008, just a week before her passing LILA (Vrindavan devi dasi 17 years old) IN Vrndavan writes - (in regards to Srila Prabhupada's attachment to Krishna and telling his disiples to see beyond the material body just before his disappearance in 1977)

 

 

 

LILA - "It makes me think 'yes Prabhupad is still here and I know it, I always have".

 

Of course we can only speculate, but it does make me wonder if she was around during Prabhupada's manifest lila?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[son_of_erin2000]

i dont feel there is a need for a physicly present guru. look at jesus,he died 2000 years ago,but his presence,though not physically,is still felt by so many christians even today.

[Beggar]

 

i dont feel there is a need for a physicly present guru. look at jesus,he died 2000 years ago,but his presence,though not physically,is still felt by so many christians even today.

 

Good so be a Christian. Better yet, be a Protestant Christian - no need for a priest to explain the bible to you, get your own copy and pray to Jesus.

[son_of_erin2000]

 

Good so be a Christian. Better yet, be a Protestant Christian - no need for a priest to explain the bible to you, get your own copy and pray to Jesus.

 

just added my openion, why the hostility like this?

[son_of_erin2000]

 

Good so be a Christian. Better yet, be a Protestant Christian - no need for a priest to explain the bible to you, get your own copy and pray to Jesus.

 

Hey begger you need to read things properly begger,i never preached christianity,if you cant understand analogy,then thats your problem

[krsna]

guru is your best friend

 

guru is there when you need him most

and deserve him least

 

guru will not let you down even when you let him down

 

guru sees the good in you when others see only the bad

[gHari]

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.13.10:

 

<center>

bhavad-vidhA bhAgavatAs

tIrtha-bhUtAH svayaM vibho

tIrthI-kurvanti tIrthAni

svAntaH-sthena gadAbhRtA

</center>

bhavat--your good self; vidhAH--like; bhAgavatAH--devotees; tIrtha--the holy places of pilgrimage; bhUtAH--converted into; svayam--personally; vibho--O powerful one; tIrthI-kurvanti--make into a holy place of pilgrimage; tIrthAni--the holy places; sva-antaH-sthena--having been situated in the heart; gadA-bhRtA--the Personality of Godhead.

My Lord, devotees like your good self are verily holy places personified. Because you carry the Personality of Godhead within your heart, you turn all places into places of pilgrimage.

PURPORT

 

The Personality of Godhead is omnipresent by His diverse potencies everywhere, just as the power of electricity is distributed everywhere within space. Similarly, the Lord's omnipresence is perceived and manifested by His unalloyed devotees like Vidura, just as electricity is manifested in an electric bulb. A pure devotee like Vidura always feels the presence of the Lord everywhere. He sees everything in the potency of the Lord and the Lord in everything. The holy places all over the earth are meant for purifying the polluted consciousness of the human being by an atmosphere surcharged with the presence of the Lord's unalloyed devotees.

 

 

If anyone visits a holy place, he must search out the pure devotees residing in such holy places, take lessons from them, try to apply such instructions in practical life and thus gradually prepare oneself for the ultimate salvation, going back to Godhead. To go to some holy place of pilgrimage does not mean only to take a bath in the Ganges or YamunA or to visit the temples situated in those places.

 

 

One should also find representatives of Vidura who have no desire in life save and except to serve the Personality of Godhead. The Personality of Godhead is always with such pure devotees because of their unalloyed service, which is without any tinge of fruitive action or utopian speculation. They are in the actual service of the Lord, specifically by the process of hearing and chanting. The pure devotees hear from the authorities and chant, sing and write of the glories of the Lord.

 

 

MahAmuni VyAsadeva heard from NArada, and then he chanted in writing; Sukadeva GosvAmI studied from his father, and he described it to ParIkSit; that is the way of SrImad-BhAgavatam. So by their actions the pure devotees of the Lord can render any place into a place of pilgrimage, and the holy places are worth the name only on their account. Such pure devotees are able to rectify the polluted atmosphere of any place, and what to speak of a holy place rendered unholy by the questionable actions of interested persons who try to adopt a professional life at the cost of the reputation of a holy place.

 

 

[aditya g m sastry]

 

Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

 

BY SHRILA B.S. TIRTHA MAHARAJ

 

EDITORIAL, May 4 (VNN) — Many seekers are confused in the matter of Initiation and of the role of the Spiritual Master in their devotional lives. Consequently, a lot of questions are asked on the meaning of the word INITIATION or DIKSHA and on how and from whom one should take initiation in order to progress in one's devotional life. A prominent question that has been doing the rounds for a fair number of days now is whether the physical presence of the Spiritual Master is really important or relevant as far as making progress on the devotional path is concerned. In the lines that follow, I am making a humble and honest attempt to eradicate the confusions that exist in the minds of would-be, fresh and existing devotees in relation to the above-mentioned questions.

 

First, let's try to decipher the meaning of the term DIKSHA as mentioned in the Vedic scriptures. The meaning of DIKSHA or Spiritual Initiation -

 

divyam jnanam yato dadyat

kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmad dikseti sa prokta

desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

Translation: Learned scholars and seers of Truth call this process 'Initiation' because it imparts transcendental knowledge and eradicates gradually all sinful reactions.

 

'Di' means Divya jnanam, transcendental knowledge and 'Ksha' stands for sankshayam, to dissipate. Therefore the process of 'Diksha' enlightens one with spiritual knowledge and simultaneously dispels all reactions to past sins. This is the opinion of 'Desika', Vedic scholars qualified to instruct, direct and guide human society as well of 'Tattva-kovida', experts in the science of the Absolute Truth.

 

By Krishna's mercy when spiritual awakening takes place, the conditioned being must approach a spiritual teacher to take shelter of him by initiation for progressive march on the path of transcendence.

 

The Spiritual master in physical presence is required because he is a realized servant of Shri Hari. Only by humbly rendering service to him, we can gain perfect understanding of various spiritual pronouncements of revealed scriptures. Sometimes, we may not be able to comprehend the subtle nuances of statements in Vedic literatures even like Shrimad Bhagavatam because of our not being completely free from the infection of material nature which at times deludes one's intelligence.

 

One is normally heard arguing that it is "VANI" (advices and instructions of a spiritual teacher) rather than "VAPU" (his physical presence) that one should associate with in order to make spiritual advancement. This is, no doubt, true and valid but as long as one remains devotionally immature and has not achieved sufficient degree of realization which can ensure unimpeded progress to the point of highest perfection, one requires physical guidance of a spiritual teacher.

 

It is just like children, in their immature stage, require physical guidance by their parents even in petty matters whereas, as grown up adults they can carry on their life's activities by merely following the instructions of their parents.

 

Even in mundane situation, if one wants to obtain a graduation degree in science, commerce etc., he or she painstakingly learns the subject from a physically living teacher by going to school and college to regularly associate with him rather than merely relying on text books announced by Educational board authorities.

 

If learning through hearing subject matters explained by school/college teachers is considered essential, then what to speak of the inevitability of approaching physically present spiritual teachers for gaining transcendental knowledge? Generally speaking, it is the inherent obstreperous nature that often dissuades all conditional beings from accepting a living authority.

 

The Supreme Lords Krishna and Rama accepted Sandipani Muni and Vasishtha Rishi respectively as spiritual masters to set an example for us.

 

Shrila Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasadeva, the author of almost all Vedic literatures, himself once became perplexed and needed the guidance of his spiritual master Shrila Narada Muni who was physically present then to help detect the deficiency in his disciple and suggest a remedy which Shrila Vyasadeva followed diligently and attained highest perfection.

 

Elevated child devotees like Prahlada Maharaja and Dhruva Maharaja as well as the Emperor Chitraketu surrendered to Shrila Narada Muni who physically initiated them and imparted transcendental knowledge.

 

Although Shrila Shukadeva Goswami, the most eminent speaker of Shrimad Bhagavatam was transcendentally situated while he was in the womb of his mother, he nevertheless surrendered to his exalted father Shrila Vyasadeva and submissively learnt this sublime literature from him.

 

Both the Supreme Lords Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu took shelter of Shrila ISHVARA PURI and Shrila Madhavendra Puri respectively to show us the method of spiritual progress.

 

The most vivid example that none can fail to notice is that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhakti Vedanta Swami, Shrila Prabhupada got physically initiated by His Divine Grace Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur, Shrila Prabhupada who himself accepted spiritual initiation physically from his spiritual master Shrila Gaur Kishore Das Babaji Maharaj.

 

All eminent Acharyas of the Vaishnava sampradaya like Shrila Madhva, Shrila Ramanuja, Shrila Nimbarka and Shrila Vishnu Swami as well as various others physically received spiritual initiations.

 

In conclusion, I must say that only in the rarest of the rare cases like that of GOPIS, the cowherd girls of Vrindavana, that we do not come across anywhere in the scriptures about their undergoing any ritualistic initiation although their achievement of the highest perfection in love of God remains unequalled or unexcelled till date. This is, of course, because they are all expansions of Shrimati Radha Rani.

[aditya g m sastry]

Krsna as i have observed you must be a follower of the Iskcon tradition. Your subject was very thoughtful. but you must know that the acharyas of various sampradayas were incarnations of gods themselves. There are reasons for behind their births. As they were already knowledgible they just had to learn from their teachres so as to show to the world that every person can be educated in similar ways.

[krsna]

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.13.10:

 

<CENTER>

bhavad-vidhA bhAgavatAs

tIrtha-bhUtAH svayaM vibho

tIrthI-kurvanti tIrthAni

svAntaH-sthena gadAbhRtA

</CENTER>

bhavat--your good self; vidhAH--like; bhAgavatAH--devotees; tIrtha--the holy places of pilgrimage; bhUtAH--converted into; svayam--personally; vibho--O powerful one; tIrthI-kurvanti--make into a holy place of pilgrimage; tIrthAni--the holy places; sva-antaH-sthena--having been situated in the heart; gadA-bhRtA--the Personality of Godhead.

 

My Lord, devotees like your good self are verily holy places personified. Because you carry the Personality of Godhead within your heart, you turn all places into places of pilgrimage.

 

 

PURPORT

 

The Personality of Godhead is omnipresent by His diverse potencies everywhere, just as the power of electricity is distributed everywhere within space. Similarly, the Lord's omnipresence is perceived and manifested by His unalloyed devotees like Vidura, just as electricity is manifested in an electric bulb. A pure devotee like Vidura always feels the presence of the Lord everywhere. He sees everything in the potency of the Lord and the Lord in everything. The holy places all over the earth are meant for purifying the polluted consciousness of the human being by an atmosphere surcharged with the presence of the Lord's unalloyed devotees.

 

 

If anyone visits a holy place, he must search out the pure devotees residing in such holy places, take lessons from them, try to apply such instructions in practical life and thus gradually prepare oneself for the ultimate salvation, going back to Godhead. To go to some holy place of pilgrimage does not mean only to take a bath in the Ganges or YamunA or to visit the temples situated in those places.

 

 

One should also find representatives of Vidura who have no desire in life save and except to serve the Personality of Godhead. The Personality of Godhead is always with such pure devotees because of their unalloyed service, which is without any tinge of fruitive action or utopian speculation. They are in the actual service of the Lord, specifically by the process of hearing and chanting. The pure devotees hear from the authorities and chant, sing and write of the glories of the Lord.

 

 

MahAmuni VyAsadeva heard from NArada, and then he chanted in writing; Sukadeva GosvAmI studied from his father, and he described it to ParIkSit; that is the way of SrImad-BhAgavatam. So by their actions the pure devotees of the Lord can render any place into a place of pilgrimage, and the holy places are worth the name only on their account. Such pure devotees are able to rectify the polluted atmosphere of any place, and what to speak of a holy place rendered unholy by the questionable actions of interested persons who try to adopt a professional life at the cost of the reputation of a holy place.

 

 

 

 

 

guru can rip out your heart-ache, bhava roga

 

guru is the captain of your body-ship, guru karandhara

 

 

guru is the ultimate divine mercy in human-form, sakshad-hari

 

 

guru opens your spiritual 3rd eye, divya-jnana:namaskar:

[suchandra]

 

guru can rip out your heart-ache, bhava roga

 

 

guru is the captain of your body-ship, guru karandhara

 

 

guru is the ultimate divine mercy in human-form, sakshad-hari

 

 

guru opens your spiritual 3rd eye, divya-jnana:namaskar:

 

Thanks so much for enlightening us, guru in human form!

[krsna]

Retirement in Puri

 

 

by HDG Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

 

 

"Today we are sitting inside a bhajana-kutir at Sri Purushottam Kshetra. Why are we are living in this faraway place, leaving the great city of Calcutta, which is full of people and learned communities? A long time ago when we published this magazine, sajjana-tosani, I had a desire in my heart. I thought that the more the pure Vaisnava religion is spread through this magazine, the more the people of the world would benefit. We began to work with a free mind. Many educated gosvamis and babajis of Bengal came and pledged to help us. Some learned impersonalists joined us, and being overwhelmed by the beauty of devotional service, they began to help spread pure Vaishnavism.

 

After hearing nice instructions about Vaishnavism, materialists also became attracted. Professional singers and players floated in the waves of hari-kirtan and considered themselves fully satisfied. Gradually many assemblies for the chanting of the holy names of Hari were established in villages and cities. In this way the glories of pure Vaishnavism filled the hearts of the inhabitants of Bengal and overwhelmed everyone with their beauty and sweetness. On seeing such an unexpected response from the people of Bengal, we began to preach pure Vaishnavism with more and more enthusiasm.

 

Then by the influence of time a sudden change took place. The Glow-worm like superstitions that were hidden in the scorching heat of the sun of Vaishnavism suddenly took various forms and came from four directions. The demoniac religious principle in the form of Mayavada, which was immersed within the deepwater of forgetfulness for some time, again surfaced in the form of discourses, taking shelter in the boat of smarta teachers. At the same time some Indian and foreign yogis appeared as supporters of the smartas and created a revolution in the world of religion. Moreover some useless people, who were fond of sense gratification, took shelter of unauthorized religious practices and became to create a disturbance in society, identifying themselves as Sahajiyas and Bauls. Displaying the limit of their sinful propensity, a few worm-like people, who began to take pleasure in the stool of fame, began to advertise themselves as "the incarnation of the Lord" in the society of fools. Some people even accepted names befitting a Vaishnava, acted as acaryas and began to spread ideas that were opposed to Vaishnavism as if they were the religious principles of vaisnavas.

 

After seeing such unimaginable activities our hearts began to shatter. When we tried to search for the cause of such a change we suddenly remember the verse written by Srila Prabhodananda Saraswatipada:

 

"The age of Kali is formidable and the senses of the human beings are very powerful. Now the path of devotional service is full of many thorns. Where shall I go? What shall I do? I am completely helpless without the mercy of Gaurachandra."

 

While crying and speaking in this way, I went to the birthplace of the Lord at Sri Mayapura. Still my mind did not become peaceful. Thereafter I left my place in search of the Lord, and after arriving at Puri I began to role on the gold-like sand. At that time the Lord informed me in my heart, "O well wisher of the devotees may you attain peace. The nature that the living entities have developed, according to their respective karma from birth after birth, influences them to engage in fruitive activities. Until desires opposed to devotional service are destroyed in the heart no amount of good instruction can bring any auspiciousness. Such instructions will simply come out of the ear-holes and not enter the heart. No amount of preaching to them or discussing devotional service will produce a good result because of their bad karma. Your discourses and discussions will therefore not yield any result. My order to you is that you live at the place where I kept my dear Haridas and where I chanted the holy names of the Lord. You should constantly sing the glories of the holy names for the benefit of the fallen souls. As a result of the piety that people will achieve by hearing from you, and the faith they will develop, they will attain non-duplicitous faith in devotional service in some future lifetime."

Following these instructions of our beloved Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya, we built our bhajana-kutir in the tract of land surrounded by huge waves." (Sajjana-tosani, The Harmonist 15.1)

[krsna]

guru! where are you when I need you most?

 

 

guru! where am I when I need you most?

 

 

guru! make me your servant without guile or cheating.

 

 

guru! you know that I fall short so many times before.

 

 

guru! but you keep praying for me so I can finally get KRSNA's mercy.

[Sunds]

Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required ?

 

Yes. For Guidance. To help you differntiate what is right and wrong.

[krsna]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" width="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off">O guru make your words one with my heart

 

O guru you are in the reality and I am in the illusion

 

O guru you are Krsna's beloved servant who can give Krsna to the deserving disciple.

 

O guru make me your servant so that I can deserve Krsna's mercy although I am unworthy.

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[krsna]

actually guru is not of this world, rather he is from KRSNA's world:)

 

actually guru can see KRSNA everywhere and everything in KRSNA:pray:

 

actually for guru, KRSNA is his master and Maya becomes his servant:cool:

 

actually guru takes you by the hand to KRSNA or he may drag you by the scruff of the neck also.

[krsna]

guru carries the pure holy name

 

guru's most important instruction-

chant and your path shall be cleared

 

of every kind of anartha, offense and sin.

loudly, every day,

 

nay, every moment of every day:

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

[krsna]

guru is the way to Krsna

 

guru is the light on the way to KRSNA

 

guru is the real torchlight to KRSNA's abode

 

guru is our only hope to see Krsna

[xexon]

Yes.

 

Although there are exceptions, the general rule is the master must be in the body to accept new disciples. Upon his death, that door closes and a new master comes forward if one has been designated.

 

The reason being is a matter of human nature. People need something that they can see and touch and feel. Their own inner vision has not yet opened, so they have to have something tangible in front of them, otherwise the impurities of the mind can create the illusion of contact with a dead master and the mind being what it is, will believe every minute of it.

 

This will delay your progress as you've gone off on a tangent. The mind loves to create, but it does so without much ability to control it.

 

A living master can answer your questions and give gentle corrections to the path. A book can't, hence the danger of following nothing but a book.

 

Look at the sorry state of Christianity. Their master is long gone, and the sheep have become scattered in the hills.

 

 

 

x

[AncientMariner]

 

Yes.

 

Although there are exceptions, the general rule is the master must be in the body to accept new disciples. Upon his death, that door closes and a new master comes forward if one has been designated.

 

The reason being is a matter of human nature. People need something that they can see and touch and feel. Their own inner vision has not yet opened, so they have to have something tangible in front of them, otherwise the impurities of the mind can create the illusion of contact with a dead master and the mind being what it is, will believe every minute of it.

 

This will delay your progress as you've gone off on a tangent. The mind loves to create, but it does so without much ability to control it.

 

A living master can answer your questions and give gentle corrections to the path. A book can't, hence the danger of following nothing but a book.

 

Look at the sorry state of Christianity. Their master is long gone, and the sheep have become scattered in the hills.

 

 

 

x

 

Srimad Bhagavatam says that both the person bhagavata and the book bhagavata are competent remedies to overcome the obstacles to self realization. As far as critisizing Christianity goes the same could be said of Krsna Consciousness in some ways. Iskcon is not exactly a powerhouse cultural force from anything I have seen, maybe someday it will be who knows but the people in Krsna Consciousness seemed to be fragmented into various philosophical camps that argue with each other somewhat like the various denominations of Christianity. The problem with Christianity is not with the master being gone it is with the fact that the practicioners of Christianity really don't follow the masters words much anymore.

[Shivaduta]

one question dear friends .... tell me about EKLAVYA.... when the real master wasnt present Eklavya learnt the finest form of archery merely from a stone idol and when the real master did come into his life it was only to take the thumb (and his skill) away.

[Shivaduta]

 

Posted by xexon.....<!-- v3 Arcade --><!-- /v3 Arcade -->........ type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_1087391", true); .........> Look at the sorry state of Christianity. Their master is long gone, and the sheep have become scattered in the hills.

Truely the religion has "dispersed" as u rightly put it.... however let me remind u that this "dispersal" has happened inspite of them keeping a steady line Popes From Peter till date... this line of popes has been in stringent adherence to the guru shishya parampara and still look what has happened...

 

the general rule is the master must be in the body to accept new disciples. Upon his death, that door closes and a new master comes forward if one has been designated.

 

[Beggar]

 

one question dear friends .... tell me about EKLAVYA.... when the real master wasnt present Eklavya learnt the finest form of archery merely from a stone idol and when the real master did come into his life it was only to take the thumb (and his skill) away.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

I will discuss related topics in this evening’s class. Be ready to speak about guru-tattva, from the core of your heart. Try to follow what you will be telling, with the core of your heart. Don’t be a disciple like Ekalavya, who gave his thumb but not his heart. He did not obey his Guru, and that is why Dronacarya rejected him and took his thumb. Dronacarya knew that he was against Krsna, and later, Krsna cut off his head with His cakra.

We should remember all these things and try to be one-pointed. Life is very short. I especially fear that sometimes false ego comes in the hearts of learned disciples and they think, “I am more than my Gurudeva.” This is a very dangerous offense, and such offenders are ultimately lost forever. Don’t have false ego regarding any aptitude you may have. Always be the servant of Gurudeva. There are so many examples of pure servants, such as Srila Isvara Puripada, Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and Srila Jiva Gosvami.

[xexon]

 

Srimad Bhagavatam says that both the person bhagavata and the book bhagavata are competent remedies to overcome the obstacles to self realization. As far as critisizing Christianity goes the same could be said of Krsna Consciousness in some ways. Iskcon is not exactly a powerhouse cultural force from anything I have seen, maybe someday it will be who knows but the people in Krsna Consciousness seemed to be fragmented into various philosophical camps that argue with each other somewhat like the various denominations of Christianity. The problem with Christianity is not with the master being gone it is with the fact that the practicioners of Christianity really don't follow the masters words much anymore.

 

What we see with Christianity is a good looking corpse. They don't know what the master said. All they have to go on is a book written years after his passing. A book thats been tampered with many times.

 

Well meaning that it may be, Christianity has no true spiritual head.

 

The disciples who followed Jesus were just simple men themselves. You can tell by their writings that they only partially understood their master's message. Those who steer the course today are book educated but lack any real spiritual abilities themselves, and it shows. They imitate the master, but are unable to pass the flame from one candle to another. The only real power they have is strength in numbers.

 

Religious dogma is like a treasure map with no X on it. And this is the fate of all religions when there is no suitable heir to the master's power.

 

 

x

[xexon]

 

Truely the religion has "dispersed" as u rightly put it.... however let me remind u that this "dispersal" has happened inspite of them keeping a steady line Popes From Peter till date... this line of popes has been in stringent adherence to the guru shishya parampara and still look what has happened...

 

 

 

The Pope is just a man. One elected by his peers to the office.

 

As I wrote above, the disciples, despite having spent much time with Jesus, did not appear to have that divine flame passed to them.

 

If you examine the Bible, it lacks any real spiritual evidence that it was written by anyone except people who only has a shallow understanding of their master's teachings.

 

Imitation will not carry you very far down the spiritual road. You either have that divine flame or you don't. And it you don't, you will be unable to pass it to others.

 

You can't make an apple turn red by reading scriptures to it. But you can by bathing it in light.

 

 

x